The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

[HypnoMaster372]

I mean, it's not that the Black Knight couldn't be unique, it's that his only chance to make it in is as an echo. Dark Samus and Chrom prove echoes can have a few differences, aywyas.

Yeah but we should not completely write off the chance that the Black Knight could be more than a Echo, especially since the pre-existing Echoes haven't exactly had such substantial differentiation from who they Echo, the most different being Chrom & Lucina lacking the Sweet & Sour Spots in exchange for having more reliable attacks, &, in Chrom's case, a different Up-B in Aether, & having some moves be altered to have him use a proper grip.

A semi-clone, like I suggested, is probably the most unique The Black Knight could get, with my main argument being the fact he is wearing a gigantic, full suit of armour that whist not slowing him down heavily, it would undoubtedly make him weigh much, much more & will definitely give him a larger hitbox aswell, (unless they alter its size at various places,) that that alone would probably cross the boundary of what makes a Echo Fighter a Echo Fighter towards the Clone territory.

Anyway, I did do a post within another thread about what I believe differentiate a Clone from an Echo, so I'll just quote it here & see what you folks think -

Did u just say that is a clone of , because he is definitely not. They both might be hard hitters but that doesn’s make Mac come close to classify as a Ganondorf clone since their move sets are not even remotely similar.

Anyway, to properly answer ur question - Nope.

A Clone is a character who their moves are primarily based on that of another character (or in the case of Wolf, be from a multitude of characters,) but are not exactly the same in function & animation, thus in combination with their own personal weight, size, fall speed, walking & running speed, vertical aerial movement etc., clones will offer a MUCH different playstyle compared to the original character.

Echoes are more so glorified costumes, in the sense that along with completely changing the character, they also have tweaked properties for several of their moves, enough so that they can (slightly) change how you play the character, thus they are then given their own spot on the CSS to reflect their slightly altered playstyle. They also take much less time to develop in contrast to most clones due to just being a pre-existing character with slightly altered properties & character-suitable animations.

Hopefully I helped to further explain the differences between Clones & Echoes.

Lastly, I shall mention that I'm not against having The Black Knight getting in as a Echo, (which to be frank, regardless of the outcome, I would be outright dancing my buttock off if he does get in,) it just he could be more than just that & that is what I really wish to see.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Black Knight is being rated in the RTC, come show your support. Just a reminder to post sufficient reasoning (2 sentences for each score). As for my score, well I have made my post.

 

[Midnight Torch]

The Monty Python series needs more reps, so I support this

 

[NintenRob]

Are there any Smash mods out there that put Black Knight over Ike so I can get an idea of how this would look?

 

[Fell God]

Are there any Smash mods out there that put Black Knight over Ike so I can get an idea of how this would look?

I'd be interested in seeing this as well, I'll let you know what I can find

Update: Nothing

 

[Skyblade12]

Since Chrom is Roy's echo, I'm 80% sure of his inclusion. People are sleeping on his chances because of this anti-FE bias

Actually, I’m a massive FE fan, and that’s part of the problem.

I really can’t imagine the BK being an Ike Echo. He’s nowhere near as agile. Knights are slow, cumbersome, and tanky. I can’t even really see him jumping at all.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Yeah, I agree to an extent. I didn't see Chrom working either,let alone Simon. It seems if the demand is enough...and memes, Sakurai makes it work. But if Ike is going to get a echo, it may as well be BK, hence this topic.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Actually, I’m a massive FE fan, and that’s part of the problem.

I really can’t imagine the BK being an Ike Echo. He’s nowhere near as agile. Knights are slow, cumbersome, and tacky. I can’t even really see him jumping at all.

Might just be me, but I always thought Black Knight was portrayed as being deceivingly agile for someone with such heavy armor, that's part of what made him so difficult to fight against, he wasn't like every other knight. I do think he'd require a lot of changes as I've outlined in my RtC post, but I have no problem seeing him do the very basics of a Smash character.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

He literally is agile as Ike, though, maybe even more so. He was described in-game by Ranulf (IIRC) to move impossibly fast with someone in heavy armor.

 

[Machete]

He literally is agile as Ike, though, maybe even more so. He was described in-game by Ranulf (IIRC) to move impossibly fast with someone in heavy armor.

And it's not like Ike is impossibly nimble in Smash

 

[RealPokeFan11]

I'd much rather see Zelgius as a unique or semiclone, than an echo fighter. I've never been a fan of clone characters, and the Black Knight is too badass to get the echo treatment for me. However, if he did get in, I would be really happy so COUNT ME IN!

 

[Draugen]

Do you guys think he should be added as Black Knight or as Zelgius? Or both?

 

[Fell God]

Do you guys think he should be added as Black Knight or as Zelgius? Or both?

I think he'd probably be in his iconic PoR appearance by default, it's his most recognizable look. I'm not sure he would have the scarred RD look since it is a pretty subtle change (though it never stopped all of Cloud's colors from looking the same), but he could probably have his Zelgius alter-ego in his red Marshall armor as an alt costume. At the very least he would definitely have a pallete swap based on its color scheme.

 

[Oasis_S]

I thought he meant the name. Which I'm pretty sure he would undoubtedly go by Black Knight, since it's a sort of alter ego itself. Kinda like if you added Batman but called him Bruce Wayne, lol.

 

[Barbasol]

Do you guys think he should be added as Black Knight or as Zelgius? Or both?

I think he'll probably be added as "Zelgius" using the Black Knight armor. Black Knight isn't a trademarkable name, and if they're bringing out marketing material and figures, they'll probably use the unique name, sort of like how FE: Heroes no longer cares about the spoiler either. I also think one of his Taunts would probably be a Helmet equip/remove.

 

[User Name String]

Do you guys think he should be added as Black Knight or as Zelgius? Or both?

I hope it's Black Knight and only that solely because it is so much more intimidating which is a major trait of his character in PoR specifically.

 

[DMurr]

Do you guys think he should be added as Black Knight or as Zelgius? Or both?

Definitely as Black Knight. Zelgius isn't the popular character, even though it's technically the same person. The Mii costume wasn't Zelgius, it was Black Knight.

 

[Kotor]

Do you guys think he should be added as Black Knight or as Zelgius? Or both?

Black Knight is the default. If possible, Zelgius as his alt costume.

 

[SuperiorYoshi87]

I'm not a huge Fire Emblem fan... the last one I actually played was the one on the Gameboy Advance... however despite not ever playing the game with Black Knight I love his design... I'm a sucker for heavy armor and Black Knight is cool as hell. Only other Mii outfit I bought besides K. Rool. Easily my favorite FE character by default, would love to see him in Ultimate even as an Echo. I actually think he's extremely likely especially since Ike didnt get echoed by Chrom.

 

[Arsenal234]

Do you guys think he should be added as Black Knight or as Zelgius? Or both?

He could get the Wario/Mac treatment and get both.

 

[LasermasterA]

WOAH there is a BK support thread!!!

I'd absolutely love for him to get in as Ike's Echo, BK is one of my most favourite characters in the whole FE franchise and definitely my fav in the Tellius series!

Here, take my energy!

 

[CrimsonFlash]

During the smash ballot, I voted for the black knight, he is honestly the only character I want in, I really appreciate the amount of support I see him getting, this is why I think he has a real chance, especially if there is a real effort to add villains.

 

[Sigran101]

Dang it, I missed the RTC. I got confused on the date and smashboards didn't notify me of the post here reminding of it. What did he get? I don't see him listed.

 

[Yoh]

Actually, I’m a massive FE fan, and that’s part of the problem.

I really can’t imagine the BK being an Ike Echo. He’s nowhere near as agile. Knights are slow, cumbersome, and tanky. I can’t even really see him jumping at all.

https://youtu.be/NvfhL1BfByA

He isn't slow there is no problem with him being an Ike Echo in my opinion.

Perhaps he could get some different moves like Ike's old uair, since it is a move the Black Knight uses before doing a ranged crit in Radiant Dawn.

 

[LasermasterA]

Actually, I’m a massive FE fan, and that’s part of the problem.

I really can’t imagine the BK being an Ike Echo. He’s nowhere near as agile. Knights are slow, cumbersome, and tanky. I can’t even really see him jumping at all.

Well besides the video Yoh linked above, BK was extremely fast in his own games as well. Especially path of Radiance where he had 27 speed, where Ike could reach a maximum of 28.

In Radiant Dawn he had 30 speed as well, but he suffered there cause the tertiary classes were added and the other characters could reach higher speed levels like speed 36, 37 (Ike) and 40 (Trueblades) whereas his stats weren't changed much from PoR and had to conform to maximum stat limits of the Marshall class.

Also both of his iterations in Fire Emblem Heroes at 34 (BK) and 33 (Zelgius) speed, are faster than all the iterations of Ike in the same game. There is no issue of BK being too cumbersome as an Ike echo imo.

 

[Machete]

Basically, I believe BK's biggest obstacle is that he might not have been perceived to be a popular or requested as other echoes, and whereas there was demand for more Metroid in general (which might have pushed Dark Samus to the forefront), it was quite the reverse for Fire Emblem. I still believe Black Knight has a fair chance precisely because of his similarity with Ike, though, so, if he were to make it in, what do you think would have to be changed from Ike, and what would stay?

Obviously the intro would be the same. I think the neutral attack would have to change. I can picture the punch and the slash, but I can't imagine the Black Knight kicking. I think even just removing the kick would be enough, making him go straight from the punch to the slash. The only tilt that might have to change would be the up one, but I think a slight animation change would suffice, similar to some of Chrom's attacks. Maybe the Black Knight wouldn't jump when doing the attack, or he'd do it one handed, or something similar.

None of the smashes or aerials really need changing, as far as I believe, nor the dash attack. Maybe the grab needs some work? I can picture Ike's throws on Black Knight, but most of them would look odd. I think the only one that would 100% fit him is the down throw, the others might need some adjusting. As for his specials, everyone has suggested changing his upB for a teleport of some kind, and I'd personally change the animation of his forward special somewhat (since the enormous pauldrons might make it weird looking). And naturally, changing Great Aether for Eclipse.

All in all, some minor animation changes in throws, jabs, a different up special and Final Smash. All of that has already been changed with Chrom, so unless Sakurai would get really anal about Black Knight's height and weight, he looks like a straight up perfect echo material, to me.

 

[CrimsonFlash]

Basically, I believe BK's biggest obstacle is that he might not have been perceived to be a popular or requested as other echoes, and whereas there was demand for more Metroid in general (which might have pushed Dark Samus to the forefront), it was quite the reverse for Fire Emblem. I still believe Black Knight has a fair chance precisely because of his similarity with Ike, though, so, if he were to make it in, what do you think would have to be changed from Ike, and what would stay?

Obviously the intro would be the same. I think the neutral attack would have to change. I can picture the punch and the slash, but I can't imagine the Black Knight kicking. I think even just removing the kick would be enough, making him go straight from the punch to the slash. The only tilt that might have to change would be the up one, but I think a slight animation change would suffice, similar to some of Chrom's attacks. Maybe the Black Knight wouldn't jump when doing the attack, or he'd do it one handed, or something similar.

None of the smashes or aerials really need changing, as far as I believe, nor the dash attack. Maybe the grab needs some work? I can picture Ike's throws on Black Knight, but most of them would look odd. I think the only one that would 100% fit him is the down throw, the others might need some adjusting. As for his specials, everyone has suggested changing his upB for a teleport of some kind, and I'd personally change the animation of his forward special somewhat (since the enormous pauldrons might make it weird looking). And naturally, changing Great Aether for Eclipse.

All in all, some minor animation changes in throws, jabs, a different up special and Final Smash. All of that has already been changed with Chrom, so unless Sakurai would get really anal about Black Knight's height and weight, he looks like a straight up perfect echo material, to me.

One thing that I have mentioned on other forums is that of the most generic complaints or requests I can think of, the most common one that can be easily addressed is the lack of villains in smash bros, the inclusion of ridley and k. rool could point to a focus on adding villains to series that seemed to lack playable ones and if that is the case, the black knight is the only choice, if you want to argue fire emblem bais, we could see the black knight added because sakurai loves fire emblem and wants to complete it's representation with a villain, I also think it is safe to assume that after chrom and lyn, it is safe to assume the black knight is probably the most highly rated fire emblem newcomer (and most definitely the highest rated fire emblem villain), given Ike's presence making the addition fitting and his already very high levels of popularity (In choose your legends 1 he scored in the 50s with a split vote and in the top 30 when you added the votes together, this was before he was even added to the game to break it mind you), while I will say that there are no guarantees (this seems to border on a perfect storm of speculation points if you ask me), his odds are helped by a general desire to see villians in smash bros.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

With Isabelle looking like she's a semi clone, it opens up the possibility for Black Knight to have quite a few more changes than we've initially speculated about. Should he be in I feel like it's more likely he'd be a semi clone than an echo now.

 

[Arsenal234]

With Isabelle looking like she's a semi clone, it opens up the possibility for Black Knight to have quite a few more changes than we've initially speculated about. Should he be in I feel like it's more likely he'd be a semi clone than an echo now.

She is her own character not an echo. This doesn't really change much for the Black Knight. Isabelle is stupid popular and Animal crossing only had one rep. VS people hating Fire Emblem getting reps. The only way he gets in is as an echo not a brand new character.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

With Isabelle looking like she's a semi clone, it opens up the possibility for Black Knight to have quite a few more changes than we've initially speculated about. Should he be in I feel like it's more likely he'd be a semi clone than an echo now.

Why does that open up the possibility? That possibility was always there. The announcement of echo fighters didn't suddenly make semi clones impossible lmao

 

[Ultinarok]

Isabelles inclusion is nonetheless another good sign for Black Knight, as she's yet another Mii costume character who got an upgrade. Heroes vs villains? A needless background change to Castle Siege that served only to make the character not Black/resemble Black Knight? Chrom isn't an Ike Echo? Multiple Mii costume characters have been upgraded to playable? Brawl legacies getting a shot at redemption?

Things are looking good. I look forward to smacking around some all-stars with Alondite. Oh, the horrors I will visit upon them...

 

[Machete]

Why does that open up the possibility? That possibility was always there. The announcement of echo fighters didn't suddenly make semi clones impossible lmao

It’s similar to the people who think echo fighters are something new in Ultimate, not just the name. This isn’t even the first Smash game with few newcomers padding the roster with clones.

Isabelle changes nothing for Black Knight. Isabelle is the face of one of Nintendo’s biggest franchises. She was clearly always meant to be playable. She -could- have been an echo, but they still went through the trouble of making her at least a Wolf type of character because she is important enough to Nintendo to warrant that. Echoes are lower priority characters who made it in due to their similarity to other fighters and being popular on their own. Basically the thought process for Isabelle was probably something like “we are going to include Isabelle. How? We’ll do her own quirky moveset and fill the gap with Villager”. The thought process for our boy Zelgius is always going to be “can we make a popular character playable by echoing another? Hey, that badass looking Black Knight dude can be done from Ike!”.

At most, yet another Mii costume being upgraded is good. And hey, they probably weren’t announcing two Fire Emblem echoes back to back, so BK is fair game for our next round of reveals.

 

[Aeon Lupin]

My prediction for the next set of echoes are Shadow, Black Knight and Ken for another, and possibly final Smash direct.

 

[Sigran101]

How is everyone feeling about Black Knight's current chances? I think his main competition is Shadow, Ken, Dixie Kong, Impa, and Medusa. Honestly, it's hard to imagine BK getting in over most of those. The Mii costume helps. I'm over all not feeling too confident unless there are a lot of echoes left.

 

[Ultinarok]

How is everyone feeling about Black Knight's current chances? I think his main competition is Shadow, Ken, Dixie Kong, Impa, and Medusa. Honestly, it's hard to imagine BK getting in over most of those. The Mii costume helps. I'm over all not feeling too confident unless there are a lot of echoes left.

I don't think Echoes compete at all. They're so simple to develop that I see no reason we couldn't have over a dozen of them. Black Knight doesn't fear these characters. Also Dixie won't be an Echo if she's in, she'll be a semi-clone like Isabelle.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Why does that open up the possibility? That possibility was always there. The announcement of echo fighters didn't suddenly make semi clones impossible lmao

I think most people were speculating that instead of doing semi clones they would just pump out as many echoes as possible. Like, when people didn't even dare to predict that freaking Dixie will be a semi clone they sure as hell wouldn't do it with Black Knight.

 

[Ultinarok]

I think most people were speculating that instead of doing semi clones they would just pump out as many echoes as possible. Like, when people didn't even dare to predict that freaking Dixie will be a semi clone they sure as hell wouldn't do it with Black Knight.

This. The Dixie thread has been nothing but an Echo vs Unique war for months. Passionate supporters maintain she deserves better than being Diddy's shadow, while the casual fans clamored for an Echo being her only shot at such a competitive roster. Both sides were skeptical about semi-clones because they're so uncommon at launch (with most of them being clones that get semi-cloned in later games), along with the prospect that all the unique newcomers had to be built ground up and share nothing with anyone, and anyone who did would be relegated to an Echo. People like myself openly admitted that semi-clones, or Echoes that function like semi-clones, could always happen, but we had no proof to persuade anyone with. Isabelle is our proof.

 

[LuigiRB]

Aight guys, let's do this again. What chances do y'all give Black Knight now? I'm still on my 70%, but I want to believe he'll be a semi-clone instead of an echo

 

[Diddy Kong]

This is some good **** for Zelgius indeed...

Personally, I also expect Black Knight to have a "blender clone" status. Mix the animations and regular attacks of Ike with the weight and other statistics of Ganondorf, potentially use his model as a base for Zelgius to, and then maybe a few unique B moves.

**** is this pretty damn good news overall.

 

[HairMythe]

How is everyone feeling about Black Knight's current chances? I think his main competition is Shadow, Ken, Dixie Kong, Impa, and Medusa. Honestly, it's hard to imagine BK getting in over most of those. The Mii costume helps. I'm over all not feeling too confident unless there are a lot of echoes left.

I believe he actually fares pretty well agains Ken, Impa, or Medusa. BK isn't a front runner in my opinion, but those three are far from given as well. But I think his biggest threat is himself, anyway.

This. The Dixie thread has been nothing but an Echo vs Unique war for months. Passionate supporters maintain she deserves better than being Diddy's shadow, while the casual fans clamored for an Echo being her only shot at such a competitive roster. Both sides were skeptical about semi-clones because they're so uncommon at launch (with most of them being clones that get semi-cloned in later games), along with the prospect that all the unique newcomers had to be built ground up and share nothing with anyone, and anyone who did would be relegated to an Echo. People like myself openly admitted that semi-clones, or Echoes that function like semi-clones, could always happen, but we had no proof to persuade anyone with. Isabelle is our proof.

I'm sure you're not that type, but I'd like to point out it'd be good to not make the same mistake and claim everyone and their mother can be a semi-clone. The conditions for Isabelle to be a semi-clone were ideal, with her being the frontrunner for AC, having to fight in a "pacific" manner like the villager, but also being very distinct from him in the original games. There's not many potential newcomers that can claim such favorable conditions to escape the echo treatment, if any. On the other hand, we need to keep in mind Chrom didn't get to be a semi-clone, when he's probably the echo that'd have the most reason to be one right now.
But I'll admit she's a bowl of fresh air. No more dumb arguments to rule out semi-clones from the get-go, hopefully. Some characters really need that.

Aight guys, let's do this again. What chances do y'all give Black Knight now? I'm still on my 70%, but I want to believe he'll be a semi-clone instead of an echo

To be fair, I think he's in that weird spot where he doesn't have enough priority to be a semi-clone, but also isn't "perfect" enough to echo Ike. Him not being in the game in any way would be a shame, though. Thankfully, he have great potential as a boss, and honestly, that's what I think he'll be. Especially if he can also be an AT at the same time.
And I'm wary of this thread being an echo chamber, as well. Remember there wasn't much talk about him before Chrom was announced as Roy's echo. Definitely not ruling out BK being playable, but I'll be harsh and give him a 20%.