The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

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#1
32e: Black Knight
Series: Fire Emblem
First Appearance: Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (GC)​

BlackKnight2.png
Introduction [including spoilers]:
Black Knight is a mysterious figure in the Fire Emblem series - as the most notable antagonist and direct foil to Ike. Being a primary antagonist across two titles is unheard of for Fire Emblem characters and Black Knight is also notable for becoming a temporary ally in the second game, allowing his motivations and character to be developed as he becomes a watchful guardian of Michaiah - the initial lord in Radiant Dawn.

Why will Black Knight be Included in Smash 5:

Heroes Versus Villains
One theme that has permeated all reveals and development in Smash Ultimate is the concept of Heroes battling against their Villainous Rivals - we saw this played out very directly in the King K. Rool trailer. Mario and Friends battle against Bowser and Jr, Link and company battle against Ganondorf, Samus battles Ridley and Dark Samus, etc. etc. However - with 7 characters to it's name, Fire Emblem is a massive franchise with no villain. Black Knight sums up this role better than any other villain in the series. He is a General class, which essentially means he is a slow heavily-armoured unit that often would serve as the target in missions. His role as the almost categorical 'Dark Knight' makes him a clear foil against any of the elegant and lively FE Lords. They are graceful, witty, and driven by their hopes and emotions - while Black Knight is slow and methodical, sworn to his duty and conviction. He does not care if his aim is good or evil - he is bound to his oaths.

A Clear Echo Opportunity
Part of Ike and Black Knights backstory is that they have been trained by the same master - Greil. From a Lore-standpoint, both share a similar style. They even wield sister-swords. Ike wields the amber coloured Rangell, while Black Knight wields Alondite.
Potential Difference:
- Black Knight is more precise with his strikes and methodical than Ike. His attack arcs could be higher damage but with narrower hitboxes.
- Slow Move Speed, Fast Strike Speed. He may be lumbering inside a heavy suit of armour, but he strikes with an unnatural grace. He can fight well in his zone, but outside that he's more disadvantaged.​

Very Prominent Relevance - Sleeper Potential
The Smash community seems to be sleeping on the potential for Black Knight as an echo. He's a very high visibility character in his initial games, and even has high profile through several elements in the mobile game: Fire Emblem Heroes. Here, Black Knight functions as a top-tier pick and has been featured prominently in program events - meaning that lots of players have been exposed to his presence in the game.
I feel one reason for this is the generic title used for him is Black Knight - a term that reflects the trope of his character but he has also had his alter-ego prominently revealed. While this is a spoiler for the games so I won't bother mentioning it here - they will no doubt call him that for clarity if he makes it to smash.


Anyways - argue and debate below. If we're getting some additional echoes, Black Knight makes too much sense to ignore.


Potential Mechanical Changes:

1) Distant Counter - When Countering, Black Knight sends out a Shockwave in the direction he was attacked - this means ranged attacks can proc a damage counter.
2) Armour of Ashera - In the games, Black Knight is nearly immune to damage thanks to his armour being blessed by the Goddess. In gameplay - Black Knight has Super Armour while under 100% Damage. Once he reaches 100%, his armour cracks and he is vulnerable as per normal.
3) Black Luna - Since this has become his iconic move in the Fire Emblem Heroes meta we can reskin Eruption to be his Black Luna ability.

 
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#3
Sure; why not lol. Count me in! I don't know a thing about Fire Emblem and wouldn't care if it stopped getting newcomers but playing as a Black Knight sounds pretty cool and I'm not opposed to Fire Emblem getting more rep's as long as they're interesting. Plus more Villains. I'm just iffy on his chances; but echo's seem to have little rules so it's totally possible he'll get in as an echo.
 
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Altais

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#4
If Ike did get an Echo Fighter, the Black Knight would definitely make the most sense. Also, I agree that the Fire Emblem franchise needs a villain. The fact that the Black Knight got a Mii costume in Smash 4 does speak volumes. That said, if he was requested enough in the Ballot, I could see his inclusion happening.

I could see the Black Knight getting Ike's up-aerial from the previous games. Like Dark Samus, he could be virtually the same as Ike, but with different animations. For instance, his double-jump could look a lot like Robin's. The only special moves I see changing are his up-special and neutral special. For his neutral special, I could see them replacing the flames with shockwaves. Aether, in mine opinion, wouldn't look right on the Black Knight--and furthermore, it wasn't even his skill. That said, I could see them ripping Cloud's up-special. The Black Knight's Final Smash, obviously, would be Luna.

If the Black Knight were included, I wonder if we would get his helmet-off appearance as an alt costume. Thanks to Fire Emblem Heroes, the Black Knight's identity isn't exactly a secret anymore, so I could see it happening. Heck, there were many clues in Path of Radiance pointing to whom the Black Knight really was. That said, even before Radiant Dawn came out, I already suspected whom the Black Knight really was.
 
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#5
Oh one thing I should point out

His sword does look quite a bit like Ike's

And reminder of chrom being a hybrid echo of Ike and Roy so change the moves slightly could happen
 

False Sense

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#6
A Black Knight echo would be super hype. I don't know that they'd do two FE echoes right out of the gate, but I'd be really excited to see him make it in at some point. It just makes too much sense. :estatic:

Oh one thing I should point out

His sword does look quite a bit like Ike's

And reminder of chrom being a hybrid echo of Ike and Roy so change the moves slightly could happen
That's because they're sibling blades. They're literally identical to each other outside of the color.
 
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CardStealer1

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#7
On one side I see him having no chance because of the already inflated FE cast + Chrom, but on the other hand he already has a mii costume. Plus he makes a lot of sense as a copy and paste Ike clone, ( I really like OP’s idea of faster smaller swings). He would be one of the better looking echoes because you can’t see his face so he wouldn’t have that Lucina/Chrom look. He would also be a great addition because he is one of if not the most memorable and famous FE Villain. I support!
 

HairMythe

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#8
I have to agree with most the points you've made. I've actually been thinking about him since the direct. He is probably the most fitting FE villain for smash as most of them are evil lords on wyverns, necromancers, or dragons. Him being an echo of Ike indeed makes a lot of sense as well because of their respective backgrounds. No doubt he'd be a nice addition.

However, I see some arguments against him.
- His armor may make his model larger. It also feels like it was especially designed to make him look imposing, so actually angling it so he corresponds to Ike's hurtboxes may look weird and out of character.
- Ike retains his Dark Knight palette but lost his Chrom palette. Incidently, Samus also lost her Dark Samus palette. By that logic, if the Dark Knight was playable, Ike should'nt have his color palette.

Obviously he could still be in despite all this. But I think he is an underdog for good reasons nonetheless.
Alternatively, he could make a great AT or boss fight.
 
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#9
I thought before we knew the "Everyone is Here!" tag, I always thought that the Black Knight was a sleeper potential Newcomer as well, just because of how much he had going for him in Smash 4; Mii Costume, main Villain for a big Nintendo Franchise, & popularity + the love for the Tellius series by fans.

However, now that we know that unique Newcomers are going to be Extremely limited, I do agree that his best chance is as a Ike Echo Fighter. That being said, I think his chances are slim considering Fire Emblem already has 2 Echo Fighters. I do like that Black Knight could borrow moves and stuff though.
I think his chances were already pretty slim before E3, and I think they still are, but I'd love to see him in this game has a unique Echo Fighter or save him for some other time.

One of my favorite FE characters and I'd love him in the game! I love that you started this thread for him! Full support for him and would love to join a Support List when/if you get the time.
 
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NintenJen

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#10
The Black Knight? I'd play him. I'm all for more villains. Maybe he could also be a boss fight. Although, not sure FE is getting any more reps and echo fighters.
 

xNaz

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#11
Black Knight would be rad as Fire Emblem's villain rep. One thing to note is that if he were echoing Ike, he would likely need to have his Up B changed. I propose something akin to Zelda's to reference his Warp Powder ability in the Tellius games.
 

Goodstyle_4

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#12
He has my full support, moreso than any other character who isn't in yet. Being an echo of Ike with a different up B (warp powder teleportation) and final smash could truly work.
 
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#13
- Ike retains his Dark Knight palette but lost his Chrom palette. Incidently, Samus also lost her Dark Samus palette. By that logic, if the Dark Knight was playable, Ike should'nt have his color palette.
While this is a good point, Marth still has his Roy palette. Taking away the Chrom palette doesn't mean much in my opinion since Chrom has no connection to Ike and was most likely thrown in after deciding on not using Chrom last minute. Black Knight has a ton of connection to Ike and if they were going to remove a palette to make room for his PoR outfit it makes sense to cut the Chrom one. After all they are keeping 90% of the palettes because they know people grow attached to them and I guarantee Ike would still have the Chrom palette if he didn't get his PoR outfit the same way that Marth still has Roy's. So in summary your logic makes sense but I think that while deciding which 4 palettes to keep the Black Knight one just made more sense for Ike than Chrom's regardless of the echo fighters in the game.

Futhermore having the palette of a playable character can be seen throughout the game continuously, for example Fox in Ultimate has a Wolf palette, Marth has a Roy palette, Kirby has an unmasked Meta Knight palette, Link has a fierce deity even though that is most likely Young Link's final smash, Mario has a Luigi palette and has had a Wario one in the past while Wario was playable, etc.
 
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#14
I would be down for having more villains. Black Knight was one of my favorite parts of Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance, and he's one of my favorite villains in the entire series. The guy is just so damn awesome.

In anyway shape or form, I would actually like seeing the Black Knight drop for Smash. I'd totally give my support for this thread.
 
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#16
While this is a good point, Marth still has his Roy palette. Taking away the Chrom palette doesn't mean much in my opinion since Chrom has no connection to Ike and was most likely thrown in after deciding on not using Chrom last minute. Black Knight has a ton of connection to Ike and if they were going to remove a palette to make room for his PoR outfit it makes sense to cut the Chrom one. After all they are keeping 90% of the palettes because they know people grow attached to them and I guarantee Ike would still have the Chrom palette if he didn't get his PoR outfit the same way that Marth still has Roy's. So in summary your logic makes sense but I think that while deciding which 4 palettes to keep the Black Knight one just made more sense for Ike than Chrom's regardless of the echo fighters in the game.

Futhermore having the palette of a playable character can be seen throughout the game continuously, for example Fox in Ultimate has a Wolf palette, Marth has a Roy palette, Kirby has an unmasked Meta Knight palette, Link has a fierce deity even though that is most likely Young Link's final smash, Mario has a Luigi palette and has had a Wario one in the past while Wario was playable, etc.
To add to this - I think there's a difference in Ike/Black Knight and Samus/Dark Samus; the latter has very similar design and overall shape - both are essentially wearing Samus' power armour, Dark Samus has just seen this look become mutated. So removing the Dark Samus color palette helps push that difference.
 
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#17
Probably the only FE character with a chance now that we have Chrom. I could see him as a heavier, stronger Ike, would definitely play him.
 

Draugen

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#19
Black Knight supporter here. Not a huge Fire Emblem fan, but I really enjoy his design. Would be a neat addition to the roster!
 
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#20
Black Knight is super interesting and definitely being slept on. Here's what intrigues me about him right now.

1. The Mii Costume

Obviously, BK isnt the first person to have a Mii costume and plenty of people who got one have been disconfirmed. Knuckles, Zero, Ashley come to mind.
But a lot of people have also been made playable. K. Rool Inklings, Chrom for example. So what is so interesting about Black Knight?
A lot of mii costumes of specific characters like Toad or Captain Falcon, or Viridi, Chrom, X and Zero, and Dunban, all had existing assets to re-purpose for their mii costumes.
But some select characters had mii costumes with assets made from the ground up. Rathalos armor, Lloyd Irving, King K. Rool, Heihachi, Geno. Coincidentally these characters are all now hotly debated and considered viable possible newcomers. But Black Knight also had a mii costume that was made from the ground up without being pulled from an existing source like Chrom and Zero. Why? In the case of the 3rd party mii costumes, it's obvious. They had to be treated appropriately and so it makes sense that they'd have unique resources from the ground up. Looking at first party mii costumes who were made from scratch, we have only King K. Rool, Inklings, and Flying Man, and of course Black Knight. Interesting, considering K. Rool was always a super popular request, and Inklings were a no-brainer from day 1. So why Black Knight?

2. The most popular FE Villain/Emphasis on Villains
1534177977064.png

Black Knight is, by FAR, the most popular Fire Emblem villain ever. In the 2017 Choose Your Legends poll from Fire Emblem Heroes, BK ranked in the top 60 which, while that may not seem impressive, is, since he competed against literally every character from every Fire Emblem. And he still managed to top Sigurd, the main lord of Fire Emblem Genealogy of the Holy War, Seth from Sacred Stones, Frederick from Awakening, and the vast majority of fan favorites from Fates. Keep this in mind as well; Black Knight had his votes split between himself in two different games. Adding them up would place BK at 10,195 votes, firmly placing him in the top 25, ahead of the likes of Owain, Eliwood, Lon Qu, and both Tikis. Keep in mind this is a villain, who are traditionally some of the least popular characters in Fire Emblem.
Black Knight is, to say the least, popular among the FE fanbase. And he is the clearest choice for a villain if Sakurai was looking to add one. With the emphasis on villains shown in K. Rool's trailer, and the fact that FE still has no playable villain in Smash, it makes the situation all the more interesting. And lastly,

Edit: I forgot! Black Knight was also featured in this full length TV Spot for Fire Emblem Heroes. He was the ONLY villain to be shown, in a spot SPECIFICALLY focusing on the CYL Winners, Ike, Lyn, Lucina and Roy. Yet he STILL showed up. Goes to show just how much faith Intelligent Systems has in his presence and importance.

3. Echo Fighters.

Anyone who played Path of Radiance knows this well. Black Knight was trained by Greil, Ike's father, in swordsmanship. Ike and BK explicitly have the exact same fighting style, which is further confirmed in Fire Emblem Heroes.

"I share a sword style with Ike, of the Greil Mercenaries... We also shared a master. "
-
Black Knight himself (https://feheroes.gamepedia.com/Black_Knight:_Sinister_General/Quotes)

If that weren't enough, Black Knight's sword, Alondite, is literally identical to Ike's sword, Ragnell.

" Statistically identical and visually similar to its sibling blade, Ragnell, Alondite is instead silver "
-
https://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Alondite

As far as moveset goes, Black Knight can absolutely use the exact same moves as Ike. Hilariously enough, he doesnt even need to be slowed down, either, as Black Knight is notorious for being WAY faster than he appears thanks to his blessed armor.


That's everything I wanted to point out. Black Knight's mii costume, the emphasis of villains in Ultimate and his unrivaled popularity as the iconic FE Villain, as well as his compatibility with Ike to be an echo fighter, all make me consider him to be more likely than we may think. Will we REALLY get another Fire Emblem character? Well, maybe. Time will tell, and it's not my place to say yes or no. I personally would find Black Knight really cool, and I know others absolutely would detest having even more Fire Emblem characters. To each their own I say, I just hope this leads to some discussion.
 
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SEGAGameBoy

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#24
FINALLY! Someone who supports Black Knight! I've been looking for a thread made for him for the past week and I could NEVER find it! He's my most wanted Fire Emblem character. I definitely support!
 

LuigiRB

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#25
Happy to see more Black Knight supporters!
I'm thinking about his inclusion since the Smash Ultimate reveal in march.
 
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#26
Reposting here for more awareness. User draugen666 on Gamefaqs found this and it's super interesting! In addition to everything I said, I think we really might be seeing Black Knight in Ultimate. There's a lot of small hints and weird things that everyone is sleeping on.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76917519

Edit: If you don't know what the significance of this is, in Brawl and Smash 4, Black Knight appeared in the background of the second Castle Siege form, but in Ultimate it seems he is replaced by a Red Knight with yellow/gold highlights. Why replace BK? Food for thought.
 
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Draugen

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#27
Reposting here for more awareness. User draugen666 on Gamefaqs found this and it's super interesting! In addition to everything I said, I think we really might be seeing Black Knight in Ultimate. There's a lot of small hints and weird things that everyone is sleeping on.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76917519

Edit: If you don't know what the significance of this is, in Brawl and Smash 4, Black Knight appeared in the background of the second Castle Siege form, but in Ultimate it seems he is replaced by a Red Knight with yellow/gold highlights. Why replace BK? Food for thought.
Thanks for posting it here, mate. That's me on Gamefaqs.
 

HairMythe

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#28
This is pretty huge. It's such a nice addition to the stage. Barely noticeable, true, but there's not many reasons for removing him. Beware though, he could also be a Boss or an AT. But It's hard to see him not having a bigger role in Smash now.
 

lurxy

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#29
I hate to be the one telling you this, but seemingly it was never Black Knight on the throne to begin with. At least on ssbwiki it says that it always was this sprite of a nameless General:



See here

So this sadly is no indicator for Black Knight making it. But I highly support the idea of him as an Echo of Ike. And while I think there are too many Fire Emblem characters, Black Knight always stood out for me. His design is very unique for Smash Bros and I really love the idea of the whole Heores vs. Villains theme that some people think is going on. Please add me to the supporter list. Black Knight is one of the Echos I really want to see!
 
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#30
I hate to be the one telling you this, but seemingly it was never Black Knight on the throne to begin with. At least on ssbwiki it says that it always was this sprite of a nameless General:



See here

So this sadly is no indicator for Black Knight making it. But I highly support the idea of him as an Echo of Ike. And while I think there are too many Fire Emblem characters, Black Knight always stood out for me. His design is very unique for Smash Bros and I really love the idea of the whole Heores vs. Villains theme that some people think is going on. Please add me to the supporter list. Black Knight is one of the Echos I really want to see!

Even if it is a nameless general, the fact that he has been removed and his visual similarities to Black Knight make this seem likely.

Also I support, if only for another villain and to see that salt that will erupt from his inclusion.
 

Dr. Jojo Phantasma

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#31
Yeah, it may not be BK himself, but the fact that the nameless general doesn't have that resemblance anymore is very telling. Still I won't get my hopes up as he might end up being an AT or boss. Also, do you guys think BK should get a helmetless alt?
 

Sigran101

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#32
I hate to be the one telling you this, but seemingly it was never Black Knight on the throne to begin with. At least on ssbwiki it says that it always was this sprite of a nameless General:



See here

So this sadly is no indicator for Black Knight making it. But I highly support the idea of him as an Echo of Ike. And while I think there are too many Fire Emblem characters, Black Knight always stood out for me. His design is very unique for Smash Bros and I really love the idea of the whole Heores vs. Villains theme that some people think is going on. Please add me to the supporter list. Black Knight is one of the Echos I really want to see!
That looks basically indistinguishable from black knight to me. Even the helmet is the same unique shape as black Knight's helmet. Literally the only difference is the little bits of yellow. It may technically not be him but I think it's still a valid point.
 
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#33
I said that thematically The Black Knight would work better as an Ike clone than Chrom.

As for actually having him. He would be another FE character. More importantly he would be another swordsman. But I wouldn't be opposed to this. Assuming Robin's new final smash isn't Grima we don't have an FE villain. Also I like BK.
 
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#34
I do agree to be suspicious on the disappearance of the nobody on the throne which we think it’s black knight from similarity’s

But there’s one more arguement

What about this?

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Zelgius
(Picture refuses to load up)

This is zelgius

Or should I say black knight with his helmet removed

And the armor is red just like the change.
 
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Goodstyle_4

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#35
My take is that it's weird that they would go out of their way to change a generic black general to look much less like Black Knight. I think he might be a boss or (God PLEASE GOD!) a playable character, probably an Echo of Ike.
 

Sigran101

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#36
I've legitimately wanted Black Knight more than most any other character since Brawl. I talked about him constantly during smash 4 speculation and not 1 person thought he was possible. Getting my hopes up is not healthy. Too late now.

Edit: I don't think they would remove him from the stage for an assist trophy or boss. Isn't knuckles still on the Sonic stage? Playable or bust imo.
 
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Draugen

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#39
The Black Knight design is one of the best from JRPGs I've seen so far. I'm not a huge fan of Fire Emblem, but he would be really neat to play as. Considering that he's kinda popular on Japan to even get a Mii outfit, I could see Sakurai adding him as an Echo, since Echoes don't take huge time on development. Maybe Sakurai wants to please FE fans without all that criticism from it being overly representated, so he's just adding Echoes, which can also be hidden on the roster menu under the original character.
 

Ashen Jedi

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#40
Put me down for BK support, I think him being a Mii Costume in Smash 4, along with the seeming Heroes Vs Villains deal he fits.

Of course he could just be a boss (and I'd be ok with that too), but he'd work very well as an Ike echo since they both had Greil as their instructor, their rivalry/revenge story and the fact that he and Ike wield Sister Swords.

Give him a Zelda like Up B and maybe Cloud's Blade Beam for some minor differences besides the attributes he might differ in from Ike.
 
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