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The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

Gemini-Gene

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I havent played the FE games that Ike and Black Knight come from but I support him for Ultimate. His armor design and theme are pretty badass, he would be a welcomed Villain, there's assets from his Mii costume to pull from (and a trophy perhaps?), and from reading some of the posts in the thread it would be a good time to include him as an Echo of Ike with some tweaks. Plus the Black Knight mantle or theme alone is pretty cool.

One thing I wanted to ask is what if his recovery covered more horizontal distance when trying to recover off stage? I'm not sure how fitting it would be lore wise and he's wearing some big and heavy armor so naturally it would make him a heavyweight fighter.
 
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Sigran101

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I havent played the FE games that Ike and Black Knight come from but I support him for Ultimate. His armor design and theme are pretty badass, he would be a welcomed Villain, there's assets from his Mii costume to pull from (and a trophy perhaps?), and from reading some of the posts in the thread it would be a good time to include him as an Echo of Ike with some tweaks. Plus the Black Knight mantle or theme alone is pretty cool.

One thing I wanted to ask is what if his recovery covered more horizontal distance when trying to recover off stage? I'm not sure how fitting it would be lore wise and he's wearing some big and heavy armor so naturally it would make him a heavyweight fighter.
Imo his recovery should be based on Zelda's. He is known for showing up out of nowhere using teleportation powder. Since he can't use aether this would be most fitting.
 
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Jedisupersonic

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I havent played the FE games that Ike and Black Knight come from but I support him for Ultimate. His armor design and theme are pretty badass, he would be a welcomed Villain, there's assets from his Mii costume to pull from (and a trophy perhaps?), and from reading some of the posts in the thread it would be a good time to include him as an Echo of Ike with some tweaks. Plus the Black Knight mantle or theme alone is pretty cool.

One thing I wanted to ask is what if his recovery covered more horizontal distance when trying to recover off stage? I'm not sure how fitting it would be lore wise and he's wearing some big and heavy armor so naturally it would make him a heavyweight fighter.
He has teleporting powder that he uses to get from places or show up dramatically.
 

Cabbagehead

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You can count me as a supporter. I'd love to see a Fire Emblem villain, and while I'm more of a fan of Veronica from Heroes, Black Knight is definitely next in line directly behind her. An Echo of Ike that lets you basically play as Darth Vader isn't a concept I'd complain about, haha.
 

Gemini-Gene

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Imo his recovery should be based on Zelda's. He is known for showing up out of nowhere using teleportation powder. Since he can't use aether this would be most fitting.
He has teleporting powder that he uses to get from places or show up dramatically.
Ah I see. An Ike Echo with a teleport sounds interesting.
 

MasterOfKnees

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I have frightening memories of Black Knight going absolutely ham on my party in Chapter 11 of PoR, many good units were lost that day. I'd usually not be supportive of even more Fire Emblem echoes, but Black Knight is the exception, from the Fire Emblem games I've played he's stood out as one of the most memorable characters.
 

Sigran101

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I have frightening memories of Black Knight going absolutely ham on my party in Chapter 11 of PoR, many good units were lost that day. I'd usually not be supportive of even more Fire Emblem echoes, but Black Knight is the exception, from the Fire Emblem games I've played he's stood out as one of the most memorable characters.
That's one of the great things about him as a villain. He doesn't try to intimidate you or anything. He just shows up and you **** your pants. Especially in a game like fire emblem. A bad encounter with Black Knight can have major long lasting consequences if you don't play with resetting. It's legitimately terrifying when he shows up.
 

Oasis_S

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I'm kind of hoping for the Black Knight... Although... I feel like if he is revealed, especially if he's an echo, it wouldn't go over too well since Fire Emblem already has so many characters, 2 of which are already echoes.

However, personally I don't think the Black Knight could be an echo? I guess it depends on how they're defined. He'd surely be made much much slower than Ike, which would necessarily mean altering him quite a bit. Well, at least the workload for him would be about the same as Brawl Ganondorf at least. I believe, it would have to be. Which on one hand is one reason I don't expect him too much, on the other it's even more of a reason why he'd be a great addition. I really do like him as a character on his own, I literally cried over him while watching some of his cutscenes because... [spoilers]I'm a huge ****ing weenie.[/spoilers]

And that title, "Black Knight," it has that sort of timeless quality to it which makes him work so well as a villain for Fire Emblem.
 

Fell God

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I'm kind of hoping for the Black Knight... Although... I feel like if he is revealed, especially if he's an echo, it wouldn't go over too well since Fire Emblem already has so many characters, 2 of which are already echoes.

However, personally I don't think the Black Knight could be an echo? I guess it depends on how they're defined. He'd surely be made much much slower than Ike, which would necessarily mean altering him quite a bit. Well, at least the workload for him would be about the same as Brawl Ganondorf at least. I believe, it would have to be. Which on one hand is one reason I don't expect him too much, on the other it's even more of a reason why he'd be a great addition. I really do like him as a character on his own, I literally cried over him while watching some of his cutscenes because... [spoilers]I'm a huge ****ing weenie.[/spoilers]

And that title, "Black Knight," it has that sort of timeless quality to it which makes him work so well as a villain for Fire Emblem.

I don't think it would be too hard to make, the most time consuming part of making the characters are their animations (and maybe making their model look nice but I digress) and Black Knight doesn't really conflict with most of Ike's animations, though admittedly he does seem a bit stiff to be punching and kicking but I wouldn't say it's out of the question. As for his speed, Black Knight is quite fast in his own games, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume he could have the same ground speed as Ike, who isn't even fast in Smash. Really, all they would need to completely change is his Up Special into a warp powder themed teleport. Slow down his frame data a little, give him a bit better reach and weight, and presto! You have a high quality echo fighter! Besides, who cares about the whiners anyway? They hate FE already, one more character isn't going to change much, just going to make some people very salty for the rest of the time Ultimate is relevant.
 
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Cereal Bawks

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Slow down his frame data a little, give him a bit better reach and weight, and presto!
I think changing even just that will make him play differently from Ike, and thus he would not be an echo. From what I understand, all echoes can be pretty much played the same way you would play their original counterpart because their frame data is the same.
 

Fell God

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I think changing even just that will make him play differently from Ike, and thus he would not be an echo. From what I understand, all echoes can be pretty much played the same way you would play their original counterpart because their frame data is the same.
I can see your point, but I'd argue that even the slightest difference can drastically alter a playstyle, case in point: Chrom. He doesn't have to get up in your face like Boy does, which means he can play safer and less committal. Melee Falco had the same moves as Fox, but just some statistical alterations radically changed not only how he plays, but how he combos as well. It's really hard to say just how different echoes are allowed to be, since the two we had in Smash 4 are essentially carbon copies (though admittedly Lucina...I guess...can fight at close range unlike Marth? Don't know why you'd want to though) but I think Chrom alone pushes the boundaries and shows echoes can have a different playstyle.
 

Red Dead Redeemed

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Besides, who cares about the whiners anyway? They hate FE already, one more character isn't going to change much, just going to make some people very salty for the rest of the time Ultimate is relevant.

Seriously. I've grown so tired of the constant complaining that I actually welcome any new FE characters partly just to spite all the people that feel the need to whine anytime an FE character "steals" a slot from a more "deserving" character.

I don't think it would be too hard to make, the most time consuming part of making the characters are their animations (and maybe making their model look nice but I digress) and Black Knight doesn't really conflict with most of Ike's animations, though admittedly he does seem a bit stiff to be punching and kicking but I wouldn't say it's out of the question. As for his speed, Black Knight is quite fast in his own games, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume he could have the same ground speed as Ike, who isn't even fast in Smash. Really, all they would need to completely change is his Up Special into a warp powder themed teleport. Slow down his frame data a little, give him a bit better reach and weight, and presto! You have a high quality echo fighter!
These are all great points! I'd like to add on that the Black Knight under his armor actually has a near identical build to RD Ike. The armor is all extra crap added on to him, he could very easily use RD Ike's base model with just the armor added on for aesthetics. Very important considering that the one consistency in all Echo Fighters is that they share an identical or near identical model with their base fighter.


However, I do have to contest changing his frame data to give a slightly better reach at the cost of speed. Alondite and Ragnell are sister blades and appear to be the same size in the Tellius games, and RD Ike and BK are roughly the same height, giving him better reach just doesn't make sense to me.
 
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Draugen

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Or Sakurai could go "full madman" and add Black Knight as a full newcomer. It would be pleasant to see all the salt.

Edit: grammar
 
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D

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I support the Black Knight, knowing full well how much salt he would induce.

I played Path of Radiance months ago and he's easily my favorite villain in the Fire Emblem franchise. He's incredibly intimidating, powerful, and is the perfect foil for Ike. His boss fight, although dependent on luck, is one of the most tense moments and I was incredibly hyped when I defeated him.

Whether he would be a completely unique character (which can happen, he has enough to pull from to make that happen) or an echo for Ike, I would love to see him.
 

FieryRebirth

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I admit, it's kinda hard imagining this guy double jumping with all that armor.
 

Sigran101

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I'm kind of hoping for the Black Knight... Although... I feel like if he is revealed, especially if he's an echo, it wouldn't go over too well since Fire Emblem already has so many characters, 2 of which are already echoes.

However, personally I don't think the Black Knight could be an echo? I guess it depends on how they're defined. He'd surely be made much much slower than Ike, which would necessarily mean altering him quite a bit. Well, at least the workload for him would be about the same as Brawl Ganondorf at least. I believe, it would have to be. Which on one hand is one reason I don't expect him too much, on the other it's even more of a reason why he'd be a great addition. I really do like him as a character on his own, I literally cried over him while watching some of his cutscenes because... [spoilers]I'm a huge ****ing weenie.[/spoilers]

And that title, "Black Knight," it has that sort of timeless quality to it which makes him work so well as a villain for Fire Emblem.
While it would seem to make sense for him to be slower, BK is literally twice as fast as Ike. I'd picture them at the same speed in smash as a compromise.
 

EarlTamm

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You know, what would be some alternates for the Black Knight? I know he is called the Black Knight for a reason, but I figure they could sneak plenty of references in.
 

Gengar84

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I would love to see Black Knight in Smash. Although the Brawl mod I made was over Ganondorf (due to his size and build), I could definitely see him as an altered Ike echo, replacing his Up B with a teleport and Forward B with a sword beam.
 

SSB4 Roy Pharae

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Count me in as one of the supporters for Black Knight. And as for the one who mentioned the Mii costume, I'm honestly surprised it used brand new assets similar to King K. Rool. I've also read and noticed that Ike's Black Knight alternate skin got slight changes.

To think the Black Knight out of all Tellius reps from Brawl besides Ike returned as a trophy in Smash 4 at least says something and that's even before he got a Mii costume as DLC. Sakurai must have saw something in him at least, and even acknowledged the Ike and Black Knight battle like the Chrom Mii and Lucina in the Wave 3 trailer.

Black Knight is my most wanted Echo Fighter at this point. He may be another sword user, but he at least has a very distinct look from the cast and is a great choice for a villain. Considering he has a theme dedicated to him like with King K. Rool and Ridley, he'd likely get a remix of his (likely to be named "Unstoppable Destiny").

Yesterday, I stumbled upon this video and it gives a good impression on how he'd play as Ike's Echo Fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBl0Dg1uxPo&t=434s
 

Draugen

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You know, what would be some alternates for the Black Knight? I know he is called the Black Knight for a reason, but I figure they could sneak plenty of references in.
Obligatory red armor to reference Zelgius, perhaps?
 

Dr. Jojo Phantasma

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You know, what would be some alternates for the Black Knight? I know he is called the Black Knight for a reason, but I figure they could sneak plenty of references in.
Yeah, I mean I know he is the BLACK Knight, but it would be boring if his alternates just changed the color of his cape and maybe parts of his armor. I say let's have white, red, blue, and green armor alternates. :p
 

Diddy Kong

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Imo his recovery should be based on Zelda's. He is known for showing up out of nowhere using teleportation powder. Since he can't use aether this would be most fitting.
He claims it drains him of his strenght though. So that's a good reason not to use it as a Up B attack if he has to be more similar to Ike.

I also made a new Zelgius Mii Swordfighter with the Black Knight armor in Smash 4. Gave him the 3-3-1-1 moveset and it fits nicely! Shame that even the biggest Mii is still shirter than Ike, so an accurate Black Knight shamefully can't be in Smash. But they could easily borrow the Blurring Blade and Slash Launcher (which is very similar to Ike's Side B anyway) of Mii Swordfighter for Black Knight Zelgius. Counter is a given! Then, maybe a different jab or something and he'd be a fine Echo. Given that he's gonna be larger and heavier than Ike.

Hopefully they will introduce a few clones that WON'T be limited by being a Echo of another character. I feel that if a character is popular and unique enough, they would warrant such attention. It could also be saved for when DLC happens, and the focus remains with Echoes and 'Ultimate Original Newcomers' but I sure hope not.
 

Machete

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My boyfriend is obsessed with him and he looks cool as ****. I believe if the Black Knight wasn't happening (or hadn't at least been considered), Chrom would've been an Ike echo as was often said during SSB4's development, and there's no other possible Fire Emblem character. So let's hope for him! Few echoes would look as cool while requiring so relatively little effort.
 

Diddy Kong

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While it would seem to make sense for him to be slower, BK is literally twice as fast as Ike. I'd picture them at the same speed in smash as a compromise.
No he's not... Only in Hard Mode it happens that Ike won't double attack the Black Knight. Especially in Radiant Dawn. In cutscenes, Ike is faster as well. So no, Ike still needs to be faster than him. I don't know where this rumor where Black Knight should be faster comes from, but it's definitely not by someone who played the FE Tellius games.
 

Smashoperatingbuddy123

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Since Chrom is Roy's echo, I'm 80% sure of his inclusion. People are sleeping on his chances because of this anti-FE bias
That and also by the fact they feel he can’t be a echo because he’s slower

Right there is a stupid mistake it’s the attacks that are almost identical

The stats is what’s different on echos compared to their counter part
 

Dr. Jojo Phantasma

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Black Knight's max speed is 35 compared to Ike's 37 in RD. No big deal, they can be the same speed in Smash.
 

_Sheik

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No he's not... Only in Hard Mode it happens that Ike won't double attack the Black Knight. Especially in Radiant Dawn. In cutscenes, Ike is faster as well. So no, Ike still needs to be faster than him. I don't know where this rumor where Black Knight should be faster comes from, but it's definitely not by someone who played the FE Tellius games.
This. As a matter of fact, I don't recall him EVER running in the game or in the cutscenes. He either stands still, teleports, or walks dramatically toward you to **** you up with his sword. This is literally a "Captain Toad can't jump" situation.
 
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Sigran101

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No he's not... Only in Hard Mode it happens that Ike won't double attack the Black Knight. Especially in Radiant Dawn. In cutscenes, Ike is faster as well. So no, Ike still needs to be faster than him. I don't know where this rumor where Black Knight should be faster comes from, but it's definitely not by someone who played the FE Tellius games.
I've only ever played either on hard mode but I definitely remember Black Knight being faster than Ike. It probably comes from chapter 11 of PoR. That was my biggest connection to BK as a character. I play fire emblem with no resetting so when a character dies I play the rest of the game without them. When Black Knight showed up I had no idea it was coming and half my party was in his range. In just a couple turns he murdered Mia, Nephenee, Boyd, Brom, and Ilyana. It was legitimately terrifying. I definitely remember him doubling everyone, even those who were far faster than Ike. So I guess end game Ike is as fast as BK. I definitely don't remember him being faster than BK but maybe I didn't pay close attention.

_Sheik _Sheik BK running in a cutscene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvfhL1BfByA
Definitely not a captain toad situation.
 
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Cereal Bawks

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Kinda off topic, but that video makes me want Ike's Vanguard outfit in Ultimate.

As for alts for BK, I could see him getting an actual Zelgius alt instead of just a red color swap.
 

Sigran101

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I'd also like to point out that smash Ike is not end game Ike. The models used are pre class change Ike. He definitely doesn't catch up to Black Knight (who starts at Max level) in speed before even class changing.
 

Diddy Kong

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I'd also like to point out that smash Ike is not end game Ike. The models used are pre class change Ike. He definitely doesn't catch up to Black Knight (who starts at Max level) in speed before even class changing.
He definitely is, otherwise he wouldn't have Ragnell, be able to control the blue fire, or use Aether.
 

Draugen

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Kinda off topic, but that video makes me want Ike's Vanguard outfit in Ultimate.

As for alts for BK, I could see him getting an actual Zelgius alt instead of just a red color swap.
That would be awesome, actually. We get aesthetically "2 echoes" for the same character. It would be pretty hype IMO. And it would also match Ike having 2 alts too.
 
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Sigran101

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He definitely is, otherwise he wouldn't have Ragnell, be able to control the blue fire, or use Aether.


That's definitely ranger Ike (right) and not Lord Ike (left). Ragnell is just there because you can't have Ike without it. Like they can't have link without the master sword. The design is clearly early game.
 

Diddy Kong

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That's definitely ranger Ike (right) and not Lord Ike (left). Ragnell is just there because you can't have Ike without it. Like they can't have link without the master sword. The design is clearly early game.
At the end of Path of Radiance, Ike ditches the Lord outfit however.


Starts around 05:30.
 

Sigran101

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At the end of Path of Radiance, Ike ditches the Lord outfit however.


Starts around 05:30.
Huh, I completely had no idea that happened. Been too long since I've played PoR. Nevermind then. I always pictured him as ranger ike so I didn't think twice about the whole BK being twice as fast thing. Thanks for the info!
 

JarBear

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I am in full support of Black Knight being an Echo of Ike. We need more Villians in Smash and BK fits the role best for the Fire Emblem's version. Both logically for an Echo, but also more fitting with the back story between himself and Ike.
 
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