The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

Sigran101

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There is no Heroes v. Villains theme.

I also still can't see Black Knight as a boss and I don't really know why that idea caught on. Bosses have always been huge, and if you're gunning for a Fire Emblem boss, you'd go for Medeus or Grima as they are huge scary dragons, which is a big part of Fire Emblem that's not represented in any way yet.

I'd be willing to bet if Black Knight doesn't make it as an echo, he's an AT or nothing.
This. Seriously.

Why do so many people think he'd be a boss? He wouldn't fit at all. Either he'd be a small slow human swordsman, which would be a really lame boss, or he'd tower over Ridley, which would be even more outrageous. Playable, assist, or nothing. Hopefully not assist because then he can't be dlc. Also, castle siege means nothing unless he is playable. Bosses or assists would have no impact on stages as we have seen. I personally don't think he'll have any role in the base game, but he might have a good shot as dlc.
 
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Naw, he'd have to have a new model for an Assist Trophy. And I mean, a very slow, yet borderline one hit ko Assist Trophy doesn't seem crazy to me.

I still don't think that'd be the case as if we had a new Fire Emblem Assist Trophy it would've been shown by now, I think, and he fits as an echo far too well. But I believe there's a chance, whereas I think there's no way he's a boss. A dragon would be far more interesting as a boss, and if Spirits is indeed a story mode, then a Grima boss fight makes a ton of sense and even allows Robin to be on the "evil" side at first.
I honestly completely forgot about Grima - been ages since I've picked up Awakening. Yea, that would make a lot more sense, and would be better in keeping with Fire Emblem boss tradition as a whole. And Grima is probably the most generally relevant Big Bad in Fire Emblem.

Man, if BK actually gets in, I'mma LOSE IT.
 

LostEggs

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Naw, he'd have to have a new model for an Assist Trophy. And I mean, a very slow, yet borderline one hit ko Assist Trophy doesn't seem crazy to me.

I still don't think that'd be the case as if we had a new Fire Emblem Assist Trophy it would've been shown by now, I think, and he fits as an echo far too well. But I believe there's a chance, whereas I think there's no way he's a boss. A dragon would be far more interesting as a boss, and if Spirits is indeed a story mode, then a Grima boss fight makes a ton of sense and even allows Robin to be on the "evil" side at first.
It's not necessarily that I think that there's no way in hell BK could be a boss, it's just my opinion that it'd be a waste and uninteresting to waste a clear fighter possibility when there's such an iconic boss battle with Grima. Hell, Grima could be his own stage and fight simultaneously. Plus Robin'sfinal smash has yet to be shown off, and if it's Grima that's (I hope) a better sign for BK.
*edit
Lyn still has the same model and assets as Wii U they're just upresed and the Zero assist trophy uses his Wii U trophy assets.
 
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Luigifan18

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It's not necessarily that I think that there's no way in hell BK could be a boss, it's just my opinion that it'd be a waste and uninteresting to waste a clear fighter possibility when there's such an iconic boss battle with Grima. Hell, Grima could be his own stage and fight simultaneously. Plus Robin'sfinal smash has yet to be shown off, and if it's Grima that's (I hope) a better sign for BK.
*edit
Lyn still has the same model and assets as Wii U they're just upresed and the Zero assist trophy uses his Wii U trophy assets.
The "iconic battle with Grima" wasn't really with "honking huge dragon" Grima, it was with "wicked spirit inhabiting the body of an alternate version of Robin" Grima that took place on the back of "honking huge dragon" Grima. It would be a disservice to Grima to try to pass off a battle with a malicious-aura-covered Robin as a battle with Grima in Smash, which is why I think that if there's a Fire Emblem boss in Ultimate, it's going to be either Medeus, Duma, Anankos, or Velezark. (And, technically, yes, there is a proper battle with Grima the actual dragon in Shadows of Valentia, but I'm fairly sure that when most people talk about the battle with Grima, they're talking about the one in Awakening.)
 

LostEggs

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The stage is Grima's back, Robin stands on one end of the Screen and in order to harm Grima you must do sufficient damage to Robin. However the player must avoid the magic spikes coming out of Grima's back, the Risen that spawn in and attack the player, and Grima's breath experation. That was the idea.
 

Sigran101

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It's not necessarily that I think that there's no way in hell BK could be a boss, it's just my opinion that it'd be a waste and uninteresting to waste a clear fighter possibility when there's such an iconic boss battle with Grima. Hell, Grima could be his own stage and fight simultaneously. Plus Robin'sfinal smash has yet to be shown off, and if it's Grima that's (I hope) a better sign for BK.
*edit
Lyn still has the same model and assets as Wii U they're just upresed and the Zero assist trophy uses his Wii U trophy assets.
How would Robin's final smash being Grima be a good sign for BK? I'm pretty sure it'll just be pair up with tharja or morgan though. I'd personally like to see Grima and Medeus both as bosses, but if we only get one, no fe boss should be in before Medeus. Marth is the face of the series. By all rights his villain should be the fe boss.
 

LostEggs

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How would Robin's final smash being Grima be a good sign for BK? I'm pretty sure it'll just be pair up with tharja or morgan though. I'd personally like to see Grima and Medeus both as bosses, but if we only get one, no fe boss should be in before Medeus. Marth is the face of the series. By all rights his villain should be the fe boss.
I miss-articulated there, I meant Grima being a boss would be a good sign. My bad.
 
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How would Robin's final smash being Grima be a good sign for BK? I'm pretty sure it'll just be pair up with tharja or morgan though. I'd personally like to see Grima and Medeus both as bosses, but if we only get one, no fe boss should be in before Medeus. Marth is the face of the series. By all rights his villain should be the fe boss.
Marth may be the face of the series, but Shadow Dragon didn't exactly have the most stellar sales numbers (in NA or Japan), and generally wasn't well received compared to later entries (especially compared to Awakening). Marth being the face of the series definitely grants him icon status, but I wouldn't give the same treatment to Medeus. I highly doubt that he's as culturally relevant. Hell, Gharnef probably has a larger shot at boss status, since he was included in Warriors.
 
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Luigifan18

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I just saw an article that said fire emblem heroes grossed 437,000,000 dollars. With BK being so prominent in it, he may have a better chance as dlc than I thought if he misses base roster. That is quite an impressive number.
And yet the FE haters say that it consistently underperforms and is a lackluster franchise that struggles to make any money whatsoever... I always knew they were just spewing self-serving mental garbage.
 

Aeon Lupin

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And yet the FE haters say that it consistently underperforms and is a lackluster franchise that struggles to make any money whatsoever... I always knew they were just spewing self-serving mental garbage.
My biggest issue with the constant complaints about FE's roster is that there's only really 5 unique characters among them, 4 if you want to stretch it with Roy. Besides, like you say, people just have accept that FE is now one of Nintendo's biggest franchises. Unfortunately, many still live in the past.
 

LostEggs

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I just saw an article that said fire emblem heroes grossed 437,000,000 dollars. With BK being so prominent in it, he may have a better chance as dlc than I thought if he misses base roster. That is quite an impressive number.
In all fairness, he's the only character who is marketed solo. Now I'm curious how many sales BK has garnered on his own?

You know, I noticed something about Ike's "Black Knight color". Parts of the leather on his BK color are a redish hue, parts of his clothes are purplish not ebon, and his cape no longer has black on the back of it and is more a maroon color than scarlet red. The coloration of the color is off, I wonder if that's deliberate? Then again...I doubt anyone would confuse the imposing Black Knight for Ike with his "BK color" mid match like someone may Dank Samus for Samus mid match.

Edit* you can see the Ike color in question where that French Ike player beat Ootunuki (The mad lad Red Link) and that one French Bayonetta. It's on YouTube if you want to look at the color in greater detail.
 
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something that I just remembered for sakurai referencing the black knight, Ike's render in smash 4 used the same pose as zelgius' character art in radiant dawn, the only real difference is the position of his right leg (left for us), which I would say is probably just done to make it stand out more and be more suitable for Ike (zelgius has better posture than Ike).
 
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I know Sakurai's statements about Echo criteria requiring proportions put a damper on BK's chances as an Ike Echo, but how much do you think it impedes him? While yes he wears armour, he is still a human man who can move at the same speed and fight like his rival.
 

Sigran101

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And yet the FE haters say that it consistently underperforms and is a lackluster franchise that struggles to make any money whatsoever... I always knew they were just spewing self-serving mental garbage.
To put that number in perspective, it's almost twice as much as Kirby star allies and tropical freeze combined.

edit: Said more than twice. I meant almost twice.
 
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I know Sakurai's statements about Echo criteria requiring proportions put a damper on BK's chances as an Ike Echo, but how much do you think it impedes him? While yes he wears armour, he is still a human man who can move at the same speed and fight like his rival.
comparing him to Ike and using zelgius to remove the fluff (and the black knight is 60% fluff), and basing it on radiant dawn proportions, I think it isn't quite as unfeasible as some say, certainly not the best way to add the black knight (though the only thing I care about is animations and warp powder, anything more is a bonus), but still better than the alternative if he is so unworthy to be a semi-clone, personally I can see him ending up in a similar boat as isabelle.

I can also see him being announced alongside the ability to change the main character for characters with multiple forms in the css screen to show it off (I really think there are arguments on both sides for zelgius vs black knight being up front) if that is a feature.
 

LostEggs

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I know Sakurai's statements about Echo criteria requiring proportions put a damper on BK's chances as an Ike Echo, but how much do you think it impedes him? While yes he wears armour, he is still a human man who can move at the same speed and fight like his rival.
It depends on what the angle is I suppose. BK has a similar physique to Ike in Radiant Dawn. Going off of the models/art the only things which stick out is Black Knight's pauldrons and cissus. Technically they're quite similar, my question is would Sakurai consider the armor a factor in making BK an echo or unique fighter.
 
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LoopyBlack

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I know Sakurai's statements about Echo criteria requiring proportions put a damper on BK's chances as an Ike Echo, but how much do you think it impedes him? While yes he wears armour, he is still a human man who can move at the same speed and fight like his rival.
I think people are stuck on the idea that Ike and BK canonically fight similarly. I would argue that that isn't necessarily the case, but it doesn't really matter. Whether or not they're supposed to fight similarly has very little bearing on his chances of being an Ike echo. Dark Samus can do several things that Samus can't, so they fight differently. But that didn't stop Sakurai from making her an echo. The requirement is really just that the echo can believably fight the same way as the base fighter. Dark Samus can believably fight the same way as Samus because their suits are identical. Black Knight could believably fight the same way as Ike, but that's a very easy requirement to meet. Sigurd, Leif, and Hector are all characters who could believably fight the same way, but that has no bearing on their chances of being echoes.

Put another way: the ability to fight similarly won't be the reason for including any echoes; it would be the reason for excluding them. Sorry for the rant. This has been brewing for a long time because discussion videos, forum threads etc make it sound like fighting similarly to Ike is a huge boon to BK's chances. You only mentioned it off-handedly so I feel bad jumping down your throat for it, lol.
 

Machete

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I think people are stuck on the idea that Ike and BK canonically fight similarly. I would argue that that isn't necessarily the case, but it doesn't really matter. Whether or not they're supposed to fight similarly has very little bearing on his chances of being an Ike echo. Dark Samus can do several things that Samus can't, so they fight differently. But that didn't stop Sakurai from making her an echo. The requirement is really just that the echo can believably fight the same way as the base fighter. Dark Samus can believably fight the same way as Samus because their suits are identical. Black Knight could believably fight the same way as Ike, but that's a very easy requirement to meet. Sigurd, Leif, and Hector are all characters who could believably fight the same way, but that has no bearing on their chances of being echoes.

Put another way: the ability to fight similarly won't be the reason for including any echoes; it would be the reason for excluding them. Sorry for the rant. This has been brewing for a long time because discussion videos, forum threads etc make it sound like fighting similarly to Ike is a huge boon to BK's chances. You only mentioned it off-handedly so I feel bad jumping down your throat for it, lol.
I am sorry, what?

Fighting similarly to Ike is literally the only reason Black Knight has a shot at making it into the roster. His other positives wouldn’t even be a factor if that wasn’t the case.
 

LoopyBlack

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I am sorry, what?

Fighting similarly to Ike is literally the only reason Black Knight has a shot at making it into the roster. His other positives wouldn’t even be a factor if that wasn’t the case.
I'm not sure what you're saying. It's not like Sakurai went through all the FE games and picked out the character who fights most similarly to Ike. What would the motivation even be for that? Otherwise it sounds like you're saying BK was just sitting there, waiting to be echoe'd because a plot point implied he fights similarly to Ike.

Characters get a shot at being an echo if they have the other positives you alluded to. Popularity etc (mostly just popularity) put them on Sakurai's radar. From there, the character gets turned into an echo fighter if it's possible and feasible. Possible as in, they have the same proportions. Feasible as in, the character could believably fight similarly to the base fighter (i.e. Rosalina probably wouldn't fight the way Peach does, so that would disqualify her from being an echo). The Black Knight is feasible. Canon might've helped him get to that point, since we know that he can move fairly quickly despite his armor. But canon didn't launch him all the way from unfeasible to "has a shot". In a literal sense, I agree with what you said here. It's just that, I wouldn't say the similar fighting style is a boon to his chances. It's like a bare minimum requirement, that's also met by a dozen other characters.
 
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Aeon Lupin

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doesn't really seem to note anything that we don't already know, still, one of the few times that I have heard anyone mention the mii fighter costume, seems like people keep forgetting that it even exists.
Probably because several characters that were mii costumes in 4 got deconfirmed all the same. Although, he, like K. Rool uses unique assets.
 
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Icelerate

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Why is Black Knight being larger than Ike a problem? Large characters have been proportioned to be much smaller than their original games such as Ridley and Bowser so BK can be made the same size as Ike. You can argue it is immersion breaking but BK received a Mii costume that was much smaller than Ike so Ike and BK being the same size isn't something Sakurai would disqualify BK being playable as an echo of Ike.
 
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Probably because several characters that were mii costumes in 4 got deconfirmed all the same. Although, he, like K. Rool uses unique assets.
yeah, but he hasn't outright been deconfirmed, he is just sitting in the void right now waiting to be used for something, he isn't present in any capacity, unlike ashley, zero, megaman .exe, dunban, flying man and knuckles who have been deconfirmed via assist or final smash. I would also argue that being first party it is even stranger because I don't think that IS will fight to keep the black knight out of smash in any capacity, I can see lloyd and heihachi and even geno being more out there on account of having to fight to get them in, meanwhile the black knight is just sitting there, mii costume and all waiting to be used, plenty of characters who were confirmed have mii costumes as well, including isabelle, k. rool and chrom. it just seems odd that this one point that can be very heavily argued in his favor goes so ignored, especially after everything else we have seen makes the speculation more plausible.
 

LoopyBlack

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About that article, it says this:

"Black Knight shares very strong ties with Ike, as they were both trained by Ike's father, Greil, and wield similar blades. This gives them a straight line of logic for making him an Echo Fighter of Ike that would probably be a bit slower and hit harder / have more range. "

which triggers me immensely The thing is, they're describing a semi-clone, not an echo fighter. I'm not even sure if an echo fighter is allowed to have different walk/run speed and a larger hitbox. If you look at the hitboxes for Marth/Lucina's and Pit/Dark Pit's attacks in Smash 4, they're all the same size. They just have different sweetspots. I guess I could see special moves having different hitboxes, like if they decided to give BK a longer/weaker neutral B.

Why is Black Knight being larger than Ike a problem? Large characters have been proportioned to be much smaller than their original games such as Ridley and Bowser so BK can be made the same size as Ike. You can argue it is immersion breaking but BK received a Mii costume that was much smaller than Ike so Ike and BK being the same size isn't something Sakurai would disqualify BK being playable as an echo of Ike.
Ridley and Bowser were scaled down so that they would look reasonable next to the other characters. They weren't shrunken down to a particular character's size. A more extreme example: what if they wanted Viridi to be an echo of Palutena, so they made her taller? BK wouldn't be that bad but, it still demonstrates my point that scaling characters to fit another character's proportions has the potential to look goofy. Speaking of mii costumes: it doesn't really matter if they look goofy since they're just Miis. They weren't trying to faithfully represent characters like BK or Geno. They just wanted to give us hats and costumes that looked like those characters, as a consolation prize since they weren't actually playable fighters
 

LostEggs

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Just an observation, but it's actually hilarious to see people in the smash community talking about Black Knight a lot now and that people are warming up to him. We're so starved for info people are talking about a sleeper like BK. As far as first parties go, I think he has a higher likelihood than most third parties. But I guess only time will tell. Please throw us a bone Sakurai.
 
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LostEggs

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Oh here's a bit of data to silence gainsayers when it comes to sword fighters. (Granted I didn't count Pit and Dank Pit) but of the 14 sword fighters out of 68 fighters thus far that's only 15% of the roster. So the next time someone tries to shoot down characters like Black Knight or Sephiroth just say there's 1/5 of the roster who use swords. The excuse of "there's too many sword user's" is an objective fallacy.
 
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Luigifan18

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Oh here's a bit of data to silence gainsayers when it comes to sword fighters. (Granted I didn't count Pit and Dank Pit) but of the 14 sword fighters out of 68 fighters thus far that's only 9.52% of the roster. So the next time someone tries to shoot down characters like Black Knight or Sephiroth just say there's less than 15% of the roster who use swords. The excuse of "there's too many sword user's" is an objective fallacy.
Cool. Put that in the swordfighter stigma discussion thread.

EDIT: Oh, snap, the fighter count is miscalculated and the math is completely wrong. I should have noticed sooner...
 
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LostEggs

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Welp, I never professed to be good at math. The actual percentage is 15% according to that one guy there, my bad lul.
 

LoopyBlack

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Speaking of swords, I've been thinking about something recently. We've ended up with a pretty random set of FE characters honestly. We got Roy because FE6 was coming out soon in Japan. We were going to get Chrom in Smash 4 but then they decided to give us Lucina and Robin instead, almost as if they were reacting to the Gematsu leak.. And then we got Chrom anyway.

If you could hit the reset button on FE representation in Smash, which characters would you choose? It's fun to think about if you challenge yourself to not include too many swordfighters. You could also try to represent as many games as possible without having more than ~5 unique fighters. You don't have to use those rules though. Just try to come up with a set of characters you think would represent the series the best, or a set of characters you personally like the best. I'm interested in seeing who you guys choose.

For me, I think Lyn would be a great representative for the GBA games. She would be another female fighter which people would like. She's pretty significant because she was the first lord we got to use in America. She has become popular despite not being a fighter in Smash. My second pick would be Azura. Another female fighter, and she doesn't use a sword. She would represent the modern FE games on 3DS. She's also a fairly popular character; I think she would definitely be more popular than Corrin if it weren't for him being in Smash (FE fans seem to hate Corrin, actually). After those two, I struggle to come up with a roster that doesn't have a bunch of swordfighters. Is there room for a villain?
 
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Speaking of swords, I've been thinking about something recently. We've ended up with a pretty random set of FE characters honestly. We got Roy because FE6 was coming out soon in Japan. We were going to get Chrom in Smash 4 but then they decided to give us Lucina and Robin instead, almost as if they were reacting to the Gematsu leak.. And then we got Chrom anyway.

If you could hit the reset button on FE representation in Smash, which characters would you choose? It's fun to think about if you challenge yourself to not include too many swordfighters. You could also try to represent as many games as possible without having more than ~5 unique fighters. You don't have to use those rules though. Just try to come up with a set of characters you think would represent the series the best, or a set of characters you personally like the best. I'm interested in seeing who you guys choose.

For me, I think Lyn would be a great representative for the GBA games. She would be another female fighter which people would like. She's pretty significant because she was the first lord we got to use in America. She has become popular despite not being a fighter in Smash. My second pick would be Azura. Another female fighter, and she doesn't use a sword. She would represent the modern FE games on 3DS. She's also a fairly popular character; I think she would definitely be more popular than Corrin if it weren't for him being in Smash (FE fans seem to hate Corrin, actually). After those two, I struggle to come up with a roster that doesn't have a bunch of swordfighters. Is there room for a villain?
honestly I would just delete chrom and lucina, maybe roy as well, they are the bulk of the reason why people hate fire emblem and they ultimately bring nothing worthwhile to the table, I would also not mind seeing corrin purged from the roster on account of almost everyone hating him and him just looking stupid in every one of his moves, then throw in the black knight as a villain and maybe lyn, here every character has something unique to bring to the table and at the very least represents something unique and they all would stand out a good deal, but then again I fear that there would still be complaints that fire emblem is over represented because zelda only has 2 unique movesets, and only then would clones be factored into roster size as a net loss.
 

LuigiRB

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Speaking of swords, I've been thinking about something recently. We've ended up with a pretty random set of FE characters honestly. We got Roy because FE6 was coming out soon in Japan. We were going to get Chrom in Smash 4 but then they decided to give us Lucina and Robin instead, almost as if they were reacting to the Gematsu leak.. And then we got Chrom anyway.

If you could hit the reset button on FE representation in Smash, which characters would you choose? It's fun to think about if you challenge yourself to not include too many swordfighters. You could also try to represent as many games as possible without having more than ~5 unique fighters. You don't have to use those rules though. Just try to come up with a set of characters you think would represent the series the best, or a set of characters you personally like the best. I'm interested in seeing who you guys choose.

For me, I think Lyn would be a great representative for the GBA games. She would be another female fighter which people would like. She's pretty significant because she was the first lord we got to use in America. She has become popular despite not being a fighter in Smash. My second pick would be Azura. Another female fighter, and she doesn't use a sword. She would represent the modern FE games on 3DS. She's also a fairly popular character; I think she would definitely be more popular than Corrin if it weren't for him being in Smash (FE fans seem to hate Corrin, actually). After those two, I struggle to come up with a roster that doesn't have a bunch of swordfighters. Is there room for a villain?
Marth, Ike, Roy, Robin, Hector, Ephraim, Black Knight
 

LostEggs

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Speaking of swords, I've been thinking about something recently. We've ended up with a pretty random set of FE characters honestly. We got Roy because FE6 was coming out soon in Japan. We were going to get Chrom in Smash 4 but then they decided to give us Lucina and Robin instead, almost as if they were reacting to the Gematsu leak.. And then we got Chrom anyway.

If you could hit the reset button on FE representation in Smash, which characters would you choose? It's fun to think about if you challenge yourself to not include too many swordfighters. You could also try to represent as many games as possible without having more than ~5 unique fighters. You don't have to use those rules though. Just try to come up with a set of characters you think would represent the series the best, or a set of characters you personally like the best. I'm interested in seeing who you guys choose.

For me, I think Lyn would be a great representative for the GBA games. She would be another female fighter which people would like. She's pretty significant because she was the first lord we got to use in America. She has become popular despite not being a fighter in Smash. My second pick would be Azura. Another female fighter, and she doesn't use a sword. She would represent the modern FE games on 3DS. She's also a fairly popular character; I think she would definitely be more popular than Corrin if it weren't for him being in Smash (FE fans seem to hate Corrin, actually). After those two, I struggle to come up with a roster that doesn't have a bunch of swordfighters. Is there room for a villain?
I'd keep Marth, Ike, and Robin. But would add Hector, Ephraim, Black Knight, and Arvis. And if I could I'd squeeze Lyn in too.
 

Icelerate

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If you could hit the reset button on FE representation in Smash, which characters would you choose? It's fun to think about if you challenge yourself to not include too many swordfighters. You could also try to represent as many games as possible without having more than ~5 unique fighters. You don't have to use those rules though. Just try to come up with a set of characters you think would represent the series the best, or a set of characters you personally like the best. I'm interested in seeing who you guys choose.
In that case I would keep Marth, Ike and Robin while adding Micaiah, Hector and Ephraim. We got a lance user, an axe user, a fast swordfighter, a slow swordfighter, a pure mage and a mage/sword hybrid. That's better representation than what we currently have while using one less FE character. For variety's sake, Ephraim can be replaced by Fjorm or Azura though but Ephraim is more popular and iconic.
 

LoopyBlack

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honestly I would just delete chrom and lucina, maybe roy as well, they are the bulk of the reason why people hate fire emblem and they ultimately bring nothing worthwhile to the table, I would also not mind seeing corrin purged from the roster
I think you're definitely on to something because the presence of Chrom, Lucina, and Roy makes it seem like the FE cast in Smash is bloated. They take up more space on the character select screen, which people don't like.

Marth, Ike, Roy, Robin, Hector, Ephraim, Black Knight
The whole weapon triangle is represented, you got a villain, and you kept the staple characters that were already in Smash. I like this list

I'd keep Marth, Ike, and Robin. But would add Hector, Ephraim, Black Knight, and Arvis. And if I could I'd squeeze Lyn in too.
Arvis seems to be one of the most popular villains which I think is interesting. I still need to play FE4.

In that case I would keep Marth, Ike and Robin while adding Micaiah, Hector and Ephraim. We got a lance user, an axe user, a fast swordfighter, a slow swordfighter, a pure mage and a mage/sword hybrid. That's better representation than what we currently have while using one less FE character. For variety's sake, Ephraim can be replaced by Fjorm or Azura though but Ephraim is more popular and iconic.
This one might be my favorite just because it has Micaiah, lol. I guess I would just replace Ephraim with Azura because you already have Hector representing the GBA games.

I liked all your answers. The consensus seems to be that we should keep Marth, Ike, and Robin while replacing Chrom, Lucina, Corrin, and maybe Roy. I think my list looks something like this: Marth, Ike, Lyn, Azura, Micaiah, and Black Knight. I tried to keep an even gender ratio while having a variety of weapons. I have massive bias for the Tellius games obviously. And the new games aren't represented at all so I could throw in Lucina as a Marth clone.

EDIT: remember that time I forgot Azura was from the new games?
 
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Machete

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
628
I don't see how you can make a list that would include Roy or Ike and exclude Lucina or Corrin. Not only it would be pretty terrible in terms of gender balance, but Ike and Roy are only popular and relevant because of their history with Smash, and if you assume that exists, then everyone else who was in a Smash game should have to be in because of Everyone is Here.

Honestly I don't get the Corrin hate. She's a popular character, Fates is the highest selling Fire Emblem game (counting both versions) and she brings some of the much demanded "variety" when it comes to fighting styles. I can guarantee Corrin is a ton more unique than a character like Hector or Ephraim would be, if nothing else, because Corrin is kind of a Manakete and that brings both a unique look and style. The only thing I can't understand is why the male version is the default one. By any metric she deserves to be in Smash a lot more than Roy or Ike if we exclude previous Smash games, and if we don't then everyone gets to return.

Asking for every weapon type to be represented is like asking for every Pokemon type to be represented, it's not going to happen.

Regarding Ultimate, however, the one character whose inclusion I still think of baffling is Chrom. Awakening already has two other characters, so the excuse of there being many Fire Emblem characters because of the many games doesn't apply. He's visually just a less interesting version of Marth and Ike, without the shonen spunk of Roy or the being-a-woman of Lucina. Gameplay wise, he's the fourth Marth. Popularity wise, he's still not as popular as Lyn or Hector. If he was an echo of Ike it'd be mitigated somewhat, but since he isn't, the only way I can make sense of him being in the game is if Black Knight took the spot of Ike's echo. BK as an echo of Ike, Celica as an echo of Robin, hell, even some weird form of Tiki as an echo of Corrin would all be better. He's the sole character I'd exclude so far.

Okay, rant over. I know that's not really what the question was about, but I had to get some of those things off my chest. Trying to create a Smash roster of Fire Emblem characters ignoring Smash history so far would be hard because there'd be so many variables. Marth would be in, for sure, and I'd certainly include Tiki as she is a popular recurring dragon that would have a completely unique moveset. But after that? Lyn is more popular than Hector, but in a world without Ike he certainly offers more to the game. Veronica is the face of Heroes (the biggest Fire Emblem game), a villain, and a wizard, but that'd probably get somewhat in the way of Robin, who is still the best choice for an Awakening character. Without him, a unique Chrom as the heavy-sword guy could work, but then I'd pass Hector in favor of Lyn. Lucina would get in no matter what, because she's extremely popular and an easy echo of either Marth or Chrom (probably sharing a couple moves of each). So basically, I'd have, trying to be unbiased:

Marth - Tiki - Veronica - Hector - Robin - Lucina (Marth echo)
or
Marth - Tiki - Veronica - Lyn - Chrom - Lucina (Chrom echo)

All things considered... I have no problem with our current Fire Emblem roster if the Black Knight gets added. I still believe Veronica should get in as dlc in the future because Fire Emblem Heroes deserves a playable character far more than Three Houses likely will, but I am content with what we have. Just give me the Black Knight because it's the only way I'll understand Chrom being a fourth Marth rather than the second Ike.
 
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