The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

LostEggs

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So there's hints/rumors floating around about a possible Smash Direct this month. I'm wondering, say we do get a Smash direct this month, do you think Black Knight (if he's in) will be shown off for this month (with Halloween around the corner it'd kinda make sense for characters who hide their identities to be revealed this month no?) Or maybe saved for the last Smash Direct in November?
 

LoopyBlack

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If he's an echo, they may as well show him now. If he's a semi-clone/unique, they'll show him alongside another newcomer (god forbid the only newcomer shown is from FE). But honestly, my dream scenario is that they show Decidueye and not Incineroar. All of these leaks having to do with Incineroar have basically defused my hype for newcomer speculation. It certainly doesn't help that I generally don't like him but, even if I didn't, I think a Decidueye reveal would make this more fun because we wouldn't have to constantly refer to one or two leakers who we "know" is correct.

So I guess my best case scenario for a Halloween-themed direct would be like, Black Knight and Skull Kid revealed as new fighters with maybe Medusa as an echo of Paluena. And my unrealistic dream is that they don't show Incineroar.
 
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I brought it up. In the E3 showing they called attention to Ike's new voice and iirc said they rerecorded his lines iirc. Why do that when his previous lines were perfectly functional, unless he says something to someone he knows?

Also Sakurai said they were merely slowing down, not cutting back on content. Knowing how he said he added characters like Ganondorf last second in Melee and Lucina mid development in Wii U I'm sure he's added some more characters who weren't planned. And since Black Knight is the only first party Mii costume left who hasn't been confirmed or deconfirmed I think his odds are good...at least better than poor Viridi getting delegated to stage background. I'd peg his odds at 70%, tbh since Smash has always used big bosses I don't see him as a boss. So as long as he isn't a assist I think he'll be playable (either in base or DLC).
I believe what happened was they changed his voice actor to the one from heroes. I could be wrong, but I don't think they specifically said there were new lines. Still worth taking into account of course:)
 

LostEggs

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I believe what happened was they changed his voice actor to the one from heroes. I could be wrong, but I don't think they specifically said there were new lines. Still worth taking into account of course:)
well, no they didn't say new lines were recorded. But it's highly probable they did record some new lines. Why else call attention to the redone lines? Sakurai never calls attention to details that don't matter usually.
 
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well, no they didn't say new lines were recorded. But it's highly probable they did record some new lines. Why else call attention to the redone lines? Sakurai never calls attention to details that don't matter usually.
It's definitely possible, but the only thing that's officially confirmed is that Ike has a new voice actor. Completely new lines being recorded is an assumption. Unless I'm completely missing something here.
 
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I believe what happened was they changed his voice actor to the one from heroes. I could be wrong, but I don't think they specifically said there were new lines. Still worth taking into account of course:)
one thing that I like to note with Ike's changes is his entrance animation and his idle animation, his entrance animation has his feet on the ground which could be seen as more suitable for the black knight (I don't think you could have BK entering with Ike's brawl and 4 entrance), and his idle animation has him standing straighter, meaning that if they wanted to make BK an echo, they would only need to change where his sword arm is, I think you could even make an argument in the case of a semi clone, if he is using Ike as a base, they may want to change a few things about Ike to make his options more reasonable to port over, rather than virtually start from scratch eliminating the purpose of a semi clone, and allowing more parallels between the characters.

the voice argument is also not without merit, though you can also note that this is the first time since brawl that Ike had a new (and available) voice actor for the new game, I think he is voiced by greg chung (probably spelt wrong), regardless, I think it would not be unreasonable to expect new victory clips for other fire emblem characters ("I never much cared for kings" against marth pls) if they are going this far out of their way though, otherwise I would see that as a waste of resources.

edit: regarding Ike's entrance animation, all that would need to be done is once again change the position of BK's sword arm, it is a rework regardless, but not near as punishing as as repurposing his 4 animations.
 
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LoopyBlack

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"I never much cared for kings" against marth pls) if they are going this far out of their way though, otherwise I would see that as a waste of resources.
I hadn't even thought of victory quotes.

BK, after defeating Ike in Smash: "is that.. all there is?"

sidebar: I know people meme on the english voice-acting in PoR but I kind of like what they were going for with BK. Of course the JP voice sounds nothing like that so we'll probably get something closer to the FEH voice if he's in Smash
 
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one thing that I like to note with Ike's changes is his entrance animation and his idle animation, his entrance animation has his feet on the ground which could be seen as more suitable for the black knight (I don't think you could have BK entering with Ike's brawl and 4 entrance), and his idle animation has him standing straighter, meaning that if they wanted to make BK an echo, they would only need to change where his sword arm is, I think you could even make an argument in the case of a semi clone, if he is using Ike as a base, they may want to change a few things about Ike to make his options more reasonable to port over, rather than virtually start from scratch eliminating the purpose of a semi clone, and allowing more parallels between the characters.

the voice argument is also not without merit, though you can also note that this is the first time since brawl that Ike had a new (and available) voice actor for the new game, I think he is voiced by greg chung (probably spelt wrong), regardless, I think it would not be unreasonable to expect new victory clips for other fire emblem characters ("I never much cared for kings" against marth pls) if they are going this far out of their way though, otherwise I would see that as a waste of resources.

edit: regarding Ike's entrance animation, all that would need to be done is once again change the position of BK's sword arm, it is a rework regardless, but not near as punishing as as repurposing his 4 animations.
Damn it stop giving me hope! I don't want to be disappointed. Get out of here with your sound logic and good evidence and whatnot.

I hadn't even thought of victory quotes.

BK, after defeating Ike in Smash: "is that.. all there is?"

sidebar: I know people meme on the english voice-acting in PoR but I kind of like what they were going for with BK. Of course the JP voice sounds nothing like that so we'll probably get something closer to the FEH voice if he's in Smash
"No challenge? No... resistance?"
I love that part.
 
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I hadn't even thought of victory quotes.

BK, after defeating Ike in Smash: "is that.. all there is?"

sidebar: I know people meme on the english voice-acting in PoR but I kind of like what they were going for with BK. Of course the JP voice sounds nothing like that so we'll probably get something closer to the FEH voice if he's in Smash
Just...give me...that HOLLOWING VOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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MasterOfKnees

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So there's hints/rumors floating around about a possible Smash Direct this month. I'm wondering, say we do get a Smash direct this month, do you think Black Knight (if he's in) will be shown off for this month (with Halloween around the corner it'd kinda make sense for characters who hide their identities to be revealed this month no?) Or maybe saved for the last Smash Direct in November?
I really think we only have one more Smash Direct left, anything before that is likely to just be a character trailer that's streamed, like the Robin/Lucina one was.

I feel like if he's in, he's probably going to be revealed alongside the final roster. Fire Emblem already has one newcomer, and its characters are not universally well received (although Black Knight at least does break some tropes), so to have him be October's sole reveal would be an odd choice as he can't carry an entire month's worth of hype on his own. It'll be easier for the people who don't want more Fire Emblem characters to accept him if he's announced alongside a more popular character though, like Geno for example.

If he's an echo then he's pretty much guaranteed to be revealed at the end, we haven't yet seen a cross-series CGI trailer, and Fire Emblem isn't getting three newcomers in total. I do think that if he's in he's almost certainly a semi clone though.
 

Aeon Lupin

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If he's an echo, they may as well show him now. If he's a semi-clone/unique, they'll show him alongside another newcomer (god forbid the only newcomer shown is from FE). But honestly, my dream scenario is that they show Decidueye and not Incineroar. All of these leaks having to do with Incineroar have basically defused my hype for newcomer speculation. It certainly doesn't help that I generally don't like him but, even if I didn't, I think a Decidueye reveal would make this more fun because we wouldn't have to constantly refer to one or two leakers who we "know" is correct.

So I guess my best case scenario for a Halloween-themed direct would be like, Black Knight and Skull Kid revealed as new fighters with maybe Medusa as an echo of Paluena. And my unrealistic dream is that they don't show Incineroar.
I don't know why there's this idea that we'd get a halloween themed reveal. If that were the case, Simon and Richter would've been far more appropriate.
 
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I don't know why there's this idea that we'd get a halloween themed reveal. If that were the case, Simon and Richter would've been far more appropriate.
Since Castlevania is a Third Party & a new franchise to Smash overall, I feel that it wouldn't of not made sense to do an out of no where newcomer trailer for them without going into more depth & context about the character & what else their franchise brought. It would just be strange if that how they did it.
 
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to add onto my previous statement regarding the mural on the website, I was just looking at it and noticed that bowser seems oddly close to Ike, almost as if they are overcompensating his position, could point to a new character being between bowser and Ike, it looks kind of strange to me, especially the fire being right behind Ike's hand, it seems like something that I would have made less covered.

I also took the liberty to look at the older banners to see if there are any other examples of possible overcompensation and I found that shulk was strangely close to pac-man in the first banner, then after the 8/8 direct, dark samus is between shulk and pac-man, now shulk looks more natural regarding his position.

not gonna say that it confirms anything, just some more crackpot theories to add to the conversation.

edit: ryu overlapped meta knight before richter was revealed, looked strange.

edit again: these comparisons keep getting stranger, mii gunner was between links legs before the simon reveal, now she is to the left of daisy, a very awkward position originally now makes more sense. chrom and k rool. were so out of the way that they only made minor adjustments to make them fit, duck hunt was pushed up slightly, and rob was shifted to the left.
 
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Aeon Lupin

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Since Castlevania is a Third Party & a new franchise to Smash overall, I feel that it wouldn't of not made sense to do an out of no where newcomer trailer for them without going into more depth & context about the character & what else their franchise brought. It would just be strange if that how they did it.
Well, that's exactly how Snake, Sonic , Cloud and Ryu were revealed.
 

LostEggs

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to add onto my previous statement regarding the mural on the website, I was just looking at it and noticed that bowser seems oddly close to Ike, almost as if they are overcompensating his position, could point to a new character being between bowser and Ike, it looks kind of strange to me, especially the fire being right behind Ike's hand, it seems like something that I would have made less covered.

I also took the liberty to look at the older banners to see if there are any other examples of possible overcompensation and I found that shulk was strangely close to pac-man in the first banner, then after the 8/8 direct, dark samus is between shulk and pac-man, now shulk looks more natural regarding his position.

not gonna say that it confirms anything, just some more crackpot theories to add to the conversation.

edit: ryu overlapped meta knight before richter was revealed, looked strange.

edit again: these comparisons keep getting stranger, mii gunner was between links legs before the simon reveal, now she is to the left of daisy, a very awkward position originally now makes more sense. chrom and k rool. were so out of the way that they only made minor adjustments to make them fit, duck hunt was pushed up slightly, and rob was shifted to the left.
imo it looks like there's a large enough space in front of Dank Samus, if he's in he could fit there. Also Ike's looking (to his left, our right) left and his line of sight doesn't align with Bowser or anyone else near him.
 
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Well, that's exactly how Snake, Sonic , Cloud and Ryu were revealed.
Well the way Brawl News was handled was done way differently from how Sm4sh & now Ultimate news is being presented, so I don't that think count.

As for Ryu, I don't get what you mean since he was revealed & was delve into more detail along with the rest of the Street Fighter content within the first Sm4sh DLC Direct around E3 2015 time.

& finally for Cloud, well you do have a point that his reveal trailer was on his lonesome, however all of the Final Fantsey he brought with him & the various details about him & that stuff was within that trailer (Limit Break; manually charging it & how it affected his special moves, the summons on Midgar & how to activate them, the two sole music tracks & victory jingle, the Chocobo costume, probably all his moves (minus pummel & throws), & finally his taunts). The only note worthy thing not within his trailer was the showcasing of the passive charging of the Limit Break, &, if you want to count this, the Geno costume. Beside those, the trailer showed off the rest through watching & then analysing it without needing Sakurai to explain.

However, there is always the possibility of a first. This could be the first time a Third Party Character from a new IP is revealed outside of a Direct, & we be then waiting for a new Direct/Sakurai Famitsu Column, so we can get the details of the character, & the reveals/more details of the other content from their IP they bring.

There's always a first!
 
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to add onto my previous statement regarding the mural on the website, I was just looking at it and noticed that bowser seems oddly close to Ike, almost as if they are overcompensating his position, could point to a new character being between bowser and Ike, it looks kind of strange to me, especially the fire being right behind Ike's hand, it seems like something that I would have made less covered.

I also took the liberty to look at the older banners to see if there are any other examples of possible overcompensation and I found that shulk was strangely close to pac-man in the first banner, then after the 8/8 direct, dark samus is between shulk and pac-man, now shulk looks more natural regarding his position.

not gonna say that it confirms anything, just some more crackpot theories to add to the conversation.

edit: ryu overlapped meta knight before richter was revealed, looked strange.

edit again: these comparisons keep getting stranger, mii gunner was between links legs before the simon reveal, now she is to the left of daisy, a very awkward position originally now makes more sense. chrom and k rool. were so out of the way that they only made minor adjustments to make them fit, duck hunt was pushed up slightly, and rob was shifted to the left.
This is a great find! Keep in mind though that it could be an unrelated character next to Ike, or someone related to Bowser. I would definitely expect BK to be near Ike on the mural though, like wolf and fox, so this gives me even more hope.
 

LostEggs

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Guys I just noticed, the Japanese play list for ultimate updated to 70 characters. That means we are probably getting 2 characters soon. This breeds a couple questions. 1) is this the reveal for Incineroar and Ken? 2) if not, is it Skull Kid and Black Knight? 3) is it characters we aren't expecting? 4) will this be a Smash Direct or a Direct like last time, and will the respective characters shown be at the end of each noteworthy game shown or at the end together?
 

LoopyBlack

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Guys I just noticed, the Japanese play list for ultimate updated to 70 characters. That means we are probably getting 2 characters soon. This breeds a couple questions. 1) is this the reveal for Incineroar and Ken? 2) if not, is it Skull Kid and Black Knight? 3) is it characters we aren't expecting? 4) will this be a Smash Direct or a Direct like last time, and will the respective characters shown be at the end of each noteworthy game shown or at the end together?
The playlist is kinda screwy because the miis count as 3 fighters, but they only got one video. Same for Pokemon Trainer. Every echo got their own video, too. So Isabelle's video is the 70th one. But the JP playlist says it was updated 4 days ago, which is why people are talking about it now
 

LostEggs

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The playlist is kinda screwy because the miis count as 3 fighters, but they only got one video. Same for Pokemon Trainer. Every echo got their own video, too. So Isabelle's video is the 70th one. But the JP playlist says it was updated 4 days ago, which is why people are talking about it now
Aren't the videos numbered the same as each rep as to when they joined Smash? Iirc Pokémon Trainer and the Mii's do have 1 video each, but each Pokémon and Mii has their own number, which leaves our last at Isabele at 68.
Edit* the Pokémon under the Pokémon Trainer and the Mii's are individually numbered in the trailers. Which does leave Isabele as number 68 in the playlist.
 
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Machete

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Aren't the videos numbered the same as each rep as to when they joined Smash? Iirc Pokémon Trainer and the Mii's do have 1 video each, but each Pokémon and Mii has their own number, which leaves our last at Isabele at 68.
Edit* the Pokémon under the Pokémon Trainer and the Mii's are individually numbered in the trailers. Which does leave Isabele as number 68 in the playlist.
That’s not how it works. The number of videos has nothing to do with the numbering system. The echoes have videos too. Isabelle is the 70th video.
 
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Got a question for ya'll, what do you think The Black Knight's splash screen would be? I think his would say something like "Black Knight warps in".
I never liked "warps in", it is a bottom of the barrel splash screen, it works, but in the same way you make a splash screen just "[verb]s into battle", I think there is much better to do, so I was thinking of one that needs to be contextualised and I thought of it in the form of a screenplay (or whatever you want to call it) that I have been messing about with for his reveal trailer.

spoilered due to length, the spoiler title is the title of the trailer

(typical ultimate trailer opening animation)

(brief montage of smash bros characters facing off against their villains now including DK, Diddy, and K. rool)

the camera is focused on a torch in what appears to be a castle made up of beige colored bricks, there appears to be a red carpet trailing off into darkness in the background, it lingers for a moment and begins to slowly zoom out showing more of the scene

the camera stops after about 3 seconds of slowly zooming out two swords clash with one another, they appear to be the master sword and ganondorf's sword (whatever it's name is)

the camera then cuts to a further zoom where link and ganondorf are clearly visible link goes in for an attack and misses, ganondorf then proceeds with his counter attack, link barely blocking it with his shield, ganondorf with great strength launches link back, the strength of the attack was so great that it blew out several of the torches in the room

the camera cuts to link where he lands on his belly displaying the sheer impact of the attack

the camera then cuts to link's perspective with ganondorf slowly approaching appearing to want to end this confrontation definitively, in the darkness there is then a blue fire which flashes lighting some of the torches back up in the darkness you see a figure throw their sword into the air and come down while shouting "aether!", ganondorf dodges the attack barely, this mysterious warrior is then revealed to be Ike who is now positioned between link and ganondorf

ganondorf then jumps unnaturally high attacking Ike head on, Ike blocks the attack leading to a clash where Ike with his great strength launches ganondorf out far back just on the edge of the darkness, ganondorf stumbles slightly in his landing leaving himself open

Ike then charges at ganondorf who is unable to respond to the follow up, ganondorf is slammed full force into the darkness where a notable thud(can't think of a better descriptive word, how do you write the sound of a person slamming into a brick wall?) is heard

Ike then begins to slowly walk into the darkness to continue the fight or confirm that the battle is over

then several torches light up

the camera then cuts to a massive crater in a wall in the back, it then pans down and to the right to center on ganondorf collapsed on the ground next to a throne

"I am impressed with your progress, son of gawain" says a mysterious voice

the camera then cuts to the right side of the throne(while facing it) and begins to slowly pan left eventually showing an armored black boot, the camera then cuts to a hand on the arm rest of the throne also covered in black armor positioning itself as though whoever is sitting there is about to get up

"I have been waiting for this moment for a long time, that I may test my skills against not just you but all the warriors of this world" the mysterious voice continues

we then cut to a sword which looks almost like a 1:1 replica of ragnell, on the left hip of this figure as they stand upan armored hand grabs the handle

"so what do you say, shall we settle this here?"

we then cut to a front view as the figure takes out the sword stretching out his arm away from his body pointing the sword straight out, then he proceeds to point the sword at the camera

"Black Knight Takes a Stand"

he then charges at Ike to unleash an attack

(typical gameplay montage, with vanguard and lord alts and class change alts for all other FE characters shown off(say what you will this is my dream reveal))

the montage ends with Ike appearing to be losing bad, but then we hear a voice from behind him

"if this is truly the best that the "Radiant Hero" has to offer, in that case, I think it best that I take it from here"

this character is revealed to be zelgius (no splash screen because he is an alt, not an echo or new fighter)

(more gameplay revealing part 4 endgame zelgius as another alt)

the trailer then cuts to a dark forest scene with the black knight slowly turning his back to the camera while saying "Is that, all there is? No challenge? no Resistance?"

(end)

I mainly like this because it throws in the reference in brawl as a main part of the scene and references how long it has existed before now
 
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CrimsonFlash CrimsonFlash We do thank you for all of this!

I noticed the idle stance would be a hint to Black Knight thanks to that being pointed out earlier, but I didn't pay any mind to Ike having a change in entrance animation. He appears to be the only character to have a change to how he enters the battle, and that is more fitting to Black Knight than keeping the Brawl / Smash 4 entrance.

For anyone who wants to see, I made a GIF based on a video of Ike's updated entrance animation in Ultimate, as this was the best clip I could find.

https://giphy.com/gifs/entrance-ike-ssbu-1gOyHQtcO1vFSFQ6Y8
 
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LostEggs

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CrimsonFlash CrimsonFlash We do thank you for all of this!

I noticed the idle stance would be a hint to Black Knight thanks to that being pointed out earlier, but I didn't pay any mind to Ike having a change in entrance animation. He appears to be the only character to have a change to how he enters the battle, and that is more fitting to Black Knight than keeping the Brawl / Smash 4 entrance.

For anyone who wants to see, I made a GIF based on a video of Ike's updated entrance animation in Ultimate, as this was the best clip I could find.

https://giphy.com/gifs/entrance-ike-ssbu-1gOyHQtcO1vFSFQ6Y8
Going off of that I wonder if The Black Knight's entrance would be him warping in with his cape billowing over him with him brushing it aside right as the fight starts?
Edit* Didn't know Path of Radiance dropped in America on October 17th. So maybe we will get another Little Mac like reveal (not necessarily on the Date of, but possible) for The Black Knight.
 
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Going off of that I wonder if The Black Knight's entrance would be him warping in with his cape billowing over him with him brushing it aside right as the fight starts?
Edit* Didn't know Path of Radiance dropped in America on October 17th. So maybe we will get another Little Mac like reveal (not necessarily on the Date of, but possible) for The Black Knight.
that would be cool, but I don't know if the black knight is a big enough deal to use a detail like that, would be a good date to use though, any other examples of characters being announced on their game release dates?
 

LostEggs

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that would be cool, but I don't know if the black knight is a big enough deal to use a detail like that, would be a good date to use though, any other examples of characters being announced on their game release dates?
The only character I know of that had that treatment was Little Mac unfortunately, maybe there's more tho?
 

LostEggs

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https://youtu.be/vFZPpI0-MME
So this pretty much kills music theory. Aren't there still a couple of theories left tho? Wouldn't it be amusing if say Black Knight is in, that Sakurai bamboozles us all by showing him as a boss at first then we see him on like Castlevania or something then we get hit by his splash screen. With Sakurai announcing that some fighters are also bosses...come to think of it, wouldn't Ganondorf and Bowser be the main bosses for the Zelda and Mario characters?
 

Fell God

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https://youtu.be/vFZPpI0-MME
So this pretty much kills music theory. Aren't there still a couple of theories left tho? Wouldn't it be amusing if say Black Knight is in, that Sakurai bamboozles us all by showing him as a boss at first then we see him on like Castlevania or something then we get hit by his splash screen. With Sakurai announcing that some fighters are also bosses...come to think of it, wouldn't Ganondorf and Bowser be the main bosses for the Zelda and Mario characters?
Could always go with Pig Ganon as the LoZ boss, maybe Petey Piranha again as the Mario boss or maybe someone more relevant. I don't think there will be any dual boss/fighter characters since it would be weird to fight the boss as the boss. In any case though, I sincerely doubt Black Knight will receive the insult of being a boss. A potential FE boss would be better suited as being a dragon like Grima.
 

LoopyBlack

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come to think of it, wouldn't Ganondorf and Bowser be the main bosses for the Zelda and Mario characters?
If we're going off of Brawl, then they'll choose bosses that are still recognizable but not playable fighters. Petey Piranha is a pretty good example. I feel like they'd have to bring him back since the Mario series hasn't made another recurring boss character recently (not that I can think of anyway... King Boo?)

And yeah music theory is basically dead, but there's still like a tiny part of it that could be interesting. If we get a song like K Rool's remix, and K Rool hasn't been announced yet, then we can take that as evidence that he isn't in. If we get a Golden Sun remix before Isaac is announced? That's bad news, lmao. It's unlikely but: it would also be bad news if they released an Unstoppable Destiny remix.
 

LostEggs

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Could always go with Pig Ganon as the LoZ boss, maybe Petey Piranha again as the Mario boss or maybe someone more relevant. I don't think there will be any dual boss/fighter characters since it would be weird to fight the boss as the boss. In any case though, I sincerely doubt Black Knight will receive the insult of being a boss. A potential FE boss would be better suited as being a dragon like Grima.
Yeah, Black Knight as a boss seems wasteful and I don't mean that from a biased standpoint. A recreation of Grima but in a Smash setting would be rad. Say on one end of the Screen you have the spoiler and Grima's head over them, and you had to go hit the spoiler to damage and beat Grima. But you have to watch the floor for spikes, watch out for the occasional random FE enemy unit charging you, and Grima's breath experation while trying to body the spoiler. Assuming that IGN/other news site leak is true, we may have a huge smash bros info dump and I'd assume if Black Knight is in, thats where he will be revealed.
 
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There's gotta be a reason though for what was supposedly Black Knight being replaced in the background by a generic red knight.

It comes down to these three factors. Black Knight is either

1. Playable character (Echo)
2. Boss
3. Assist Trophy
 

LoopyBlack

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There's gotta be a reason though for what was supposedly Black Knight being replaced in the background by a generic red knight.
I was thinking about that recently and now I'm not so sure. Old stages should get visual upgrades as the series progresses, so it may just be a coincidence that Castle Siege got a visual update this time. The knight in the background was literally just an image before. Ultimate is trying to upgrade the backgrounds of certain stages (see Bridge of Eldin) so it would make sense that they would try to make Castle Siege's background look more fleshed out. Making the new knight red may have been something that they put little to no thought into. Maybe the lighting would've made a black knight difficult to see, that could've been their reason.

So my optimism has been curbed somewhat. I still think he has a very decent shot, but I'm not gonna refer to the castle siege thing as my de facto evidence.
 
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