The Jet-Black General, Black Knight, Echoes into Smash

LostEggs

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Wait, you can purchase Black Knight directly in Heroes? I had no idea that was a thing. Welp, time to go make my first micro transaction.

Edit: He's actually the only one? Because if that's true that's extremely significant.
He is the only character who can be specifically bought. And he was a huge sticking point the year he dropped I think 2016? I mean, how many vilians in gaming get their own live action commercial, and it's purpose is to hype the vilian in particular?
 

Sigran101

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He is the only character who can be specifically bought. And he was a huge sticking point the year he dropped I think 2016? I mean, how many vilians in gaming get their own live action commercial, and it's purpose is to hype the vilian in particular?
Man, I stopped playing heroes too soon. Don't they have characters from like all the games now? When I played all they had was fates, awakening, and shadow dragon. I'm sad I missed all the Black Knight love. If he gets in it really will be a dream come true for me. Black Knight is the only character that could get me as hyped as Ridley.
 

LostEggs

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Man, I stopped playing heroes too soon. Don't they have characters from like all the games now? When I played all they had was fates, awakening, and shadow dragon. I'm sad I missed all the Black Knight love. If he gets in it really will be a dream come true for me. Black Knight is the only character that could get me as hyped as Ridley.
Iirc every entry had representation even Genealogy does.
 
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Definitely got my support, especially since I want to hear more of Robert Clotworthy's performance and finally get an FE villain.

I also have another (albeit minor) point to add on why Black Knight is likely for Ultimate. See how Chrom is being added to please new Fire Emblem fans? Black Knight could easily counterbalance him by appealing to the old fans.
 

LoopyBlack

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https://youtu.be/hegctTFSV1Y this guy raises some decent points. Granted my estimate for Black Knight being is is 82% compared to his. But I hope that the blog post theory is correct, so it gives Black Knight a more plausible chance of getting in as a fighter.
Oh hey, that's me!

A couple things have changed since I made that video. Like I said earlier in this thread, the castle siege thing has grown on me a little. That raises his chances somewhat. Also, someone in this thread (don't remember who) pointed out that Ike appears to be looking at someone on the fighter mural. Granted: it looks like Corrin is looking at someone too, and I can't think of anybody that could be... But confirmation bias is telling me that Ike is looking at BK, lol. I would hesitantly raise BK's chances to like ~70%.

And I can see why many people think BK could be an echo fighter. But with Sakurai implying that the character's model has to be super similar to the base fighter, I think BK is different enough to where Sakurai couldn't make him an echo. Not to mention BK would logically be heavier than Ike. Sakurai's recent statements are really interesting because it almost sounds like Dixie and Shadow can't be echo fighters, even though I previously thought they were locks. Dixie's hair would be enough to give her new animations that differ from Diddy. Shadow's personality is different from Sonic's; Sakurai makes it sound like that matters, too. So I'm not sure what to expect from new echo fighters (funnily enough, that's what my next video will be about)
 

TheBeastHimself

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I don't mean to be one of those people but just because I have an unpopular opinion doesn't mean I should keep my mouth shut.

There are 7 FE characters in Smash right now. When it was 6 in Smash 4 that was more than enough. Mario has 8 characters, and that makes sense because Mario is Nintendo's most popular franchise. Unless you're into the series, FE isn't really the first thing anyway thinks of when they think "Ninendo".

I'm not gonna lie Black Knight would be pretty cool, but in my own personal opinion Fire Emblem is basically a big mess in Smash Bros with a few of it's characters just being clones of each other. I'm not sure why but Sakurai just got trigger happy when making the Smash 4 roster, and Corrin as dlc was basically just an advertisement. I'm not saying Fire Emblem is this trash series undeserving of characters, but I seriously would not want more sword fighting clones hogging up the roster. Think about it:

Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Kirby definitely deserve more reps. They're practically right underneath Mario in popularity. Yet for some reason Fire Emblem gets twice the amount of representation that they have.

I would rather have a character from any other franchise in existence (even f'n Call of Duty) than Fire Emblem. At least until the roster gets even bigger in future games (if Smash 6 onwards is a thing). As it stands right now, Fire Emblem is sorta unfair and it's a little ridiculous that it's rivaling Mario in terms of characters.
 
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Sigran101

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I don't mean to be one of those people but just because I have an unpopular opinion doesn't mean I should keep my mouth shut.

There are 7 FE characters in Smash right now. When it was 6 in Smash 4 that was more than enough. Mario has 8 characters, and that makes sense because Mario is Nintendo's most popular franchise. Unless you're into the series, FE isn't really the first thing anyway thinks of when they think "Ninendo".

I'm not gonna lie Black Knight would be pretty cool, but in my own personal opinion Fire Emblem is basically a big mess in Smash Bros with a few of it's characters just being clones of each other. I'm not sure why but Sakurai just got trigger happy when making the Smash 4 roster, and Corrin as dlc was basically just an advertisement. I'm not saying Fire Emblem is this trash series undeserving of characters, but I seriously would not want more sword fighting clones hogging up the roster. Think about it:

Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Kirby definitely deserve more reps. They're practically right underneath Mario in popularity. Yet for some reason Fire Emblem gets twice the amount of representation that they have.

I would rather have a character from any other franchise in existence (even f'n Call of Duty) than Fire Emblem. At least until the roster gets even bigger in future games (if Smash 6 onwards is a thing). As it stands right now, Fire Emblem is sorta unfair and it's a little ridiculous that it's rivaling Mario in terms of characters.
I do understand that feeling, but as someone who doesn't like most of the choices for fe characters in smash, I'm itching for one I like. I love Marth, Robin, and Ike. Don't care about Roy, Lucina, or Corrin at all, and I actively hate Chrom. Black Knight has always been the main fe character I've wanted, and it would be cool if they put in a villain for the series too.

Edit: The reason Fe keeps getting new characters each game is because it has a revolving door cast. Chrom and Lucina don't have as much reason to be there, but they are just harmless echoes. Zelda, Kirby, and DK tend to center around the same few characters each game, so there aren't as many prominent characters as Fe.
 
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Aeon Lupin

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I don't mean to be one of those people but just because I have an unpopular opinion doesn't mean I should keep my mouth shut.

There are 7 FE characters in Smash right now. When it was 6 in Smash 4 that was more than enough. Mario has 8 characters, and that makes sense because Mario is Nintendo's most popular franchise. Unless you're into the series, FE isn't really the first thing anyway thinks of when they think "Ninendo".

I'm not gonna lie Black Knight would be pretty cool, but in my own personal opinion Fire Emblem is basically a big mess in Smash Bros with a few of it's characters just being clones of each other. I'm not sure why but Sakurai just got trigger happy when making the Smash 4 roster, and Corrin as dlc was basically just an advertisement. I'm not saying Fire Emblem is this trash series undeserving of characters, but I seriously would not want more sword fighting clones hogging up the roster. Think about it:

Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Kirby definitely deserve more reps. They're practically right underneath Mario in popularity. Yet for some reason Fire Emblem gets twice the amount of representation that they have.

I would rather have a character from any other franchise in existence (even f'n Call of Duty) than Fire Emblem. At least until the roster gets even bigger in future games (if Smash 6 onwards is a thing). As it stands right now, Fire Emblem is sorta unfair and it's a little ridiculous that it's rivaling Mario in terms of characters.
Most people here are campaigning for Black Knight to be an echo. In other words, he's not taking up as much development time to work with. And I don't mean to be rude, but I just don't understand why you bothered to come into a thread for a character that doesn't appeal to you. Maybe if you had provided a new and interesting side of the debate, but all you've done is regurgitate the same talking points everyone has against FE reps. I'm a fan of DK and Zelda, and while I would like more from those series (Dixie's my #1 realistic request), that shouldn't stop me from requesting Black Knight, nor should it others and vice versa.
 

Red Dead Redeemed

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I don't mean to be one of those people but just because I have an unpopular opinion doesn't mean I should keep my mouth shut.

There are 7 FE characters in Smash right now. When it was 6 in Smash 4 that was more than enough. Mario has 8 characters, and that makes sense because Mario is Nintendo's most popular franchise. Unless you're into the series, FE isn't really the first thing anyway thinks of when they think "Ninendo".

I'm not gonna lie Black Knight would be pretty cool, but in my own personal opinion Fire Emblem is basically a big mess in Smash Bros with a few of it's characters just being clones of each other. I'm not sure why but Sakurai just got trigger happy when making the Smash 4 roster, and Corrin as dlc was basically just an advertisement. I'm not saying Fire Emblem is this trash series undeserving of characters, but I seriously would not want more sword fighting clones hogging up the roster. Think about it:

Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Kirby definitely deserve more reps. They're practically right underneath Mario in popularity. Yet for some reason Fire Emblem gets twice the amount of representation that they have.

I would rather have a character from any other franchise in existence (even f'n Call of Duty) than Fire Emblem. At least until the roster gets even bigger in future games (if Smash 6 onwards is a thing). As it stands right now, Fire Emblem is sorta unfair and it's a little ridiculous that it's rivaling Mario in terms of characters.
I apologize if this comes across as aggressive but why do people come into a thread just add nothing but negativity to it? Like, I don't care at all about Steve or Decidueye or something but that doesn't mean they don't have people that would be hype for them, nor should I walk in and say "your overrated bird pokemon sucks because there's already 9 pokemans." It's one thing to voice your complaints about it on a different thread but going on to a support thread and saying this is the equivalent of walking up to a woman minding her own business and saying "I have to say your dress looks like dog****." It's OK to think it but it's just plain rude to walk up on somebody else's parade just to take a dump on it, we're not 4Chan here.
 

TheBeastHimself

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I can agree with you, Sigran. I don't hate Fire Emblem or anything, but there's just too many characters in right now. In my own personal opinion, I'd be cool with:

Marth, Roy, Ike, and Black Knight.

I'm also not trying to discredit Fire Emblem's popularity. For where the series stands at the moment, four characters is good enough. Maybe five as an exception for Robin. But to say that Fire Emblem is popular enough to deserve more than 4-5 characters is either an exaggeration or just wishful thinking. Fire Emblem has its fanbase, don't get me wrong, but Zelda should have 7 characters if anything.
 

Sigran101

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I apologize if this comes across as aggressive but why do people come into a thread just add nothing but negativity to it? Like, I don't care at all about Steve or Decidueye or something but that doesn't mean they don't have people that would be hype for them, nor should I walk in and say "your overrated bird pokemon sucks because there's already 9 pokemans." It's one thing to voice your complaints about it on a different thread but going on to a support thread and saying this is the equivalent of walking up to a woman minding her own business and saying "I have to say your dress looks like dog****." It's OK to think it but it's just plain rude to walk up on somebody else's parade just to take a dump on it, we're not 4Chan here.
I think he was pretty respectful about it at least. If he came in here like "Yo Black Knight sucks **** cuz he's just another ****ing Fire Emblem character" I'd be more annoyed. While I agree it didn't exactly contribute much, at least he was polite.
 

Aeon Lupin

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Oh hey, that's me!

A couple things have changed since I made that video. Like I said earlier in this thread, the castle siege thing has grown on me a little. That raises his chances somewhat. Also, someone in this thread (don't remember who) pointed out that Ike appears to be looking at someone on the fighter mural. Granted: it looks like Corrin is looking at someone too, and I can't think of anybody that could be... But confirmation bias is telling me that Ike is looking at BK, lol. I would hesitantly raise BK's chances to like ~70%.

And I can see why many people think BK could be an echo fighter. But with Sakurai implying that the character's model has to be super similar to the base fighter, I think BK is different enough to where Sakurai couldn't make him an echo. Not to mention BK would logically be heavier than Ike. Sakurai's recent statements are really interesting because it almost sounds like Dixie and Shadow can't be echo fighters, even though I previously thought they were locks. Dixie's hair would be enough to give her new animations that differ from Diddy. Shadow's personality is different from Sonic's; Sakurai makes it sound like that matters, too. So I'm not sure what to expect from new echo fighters (funnily enough, that's what my next video will be about)
The personality bit doesn't really matter where Shadow's concerned. Several echoes are already quite different in demeanor and personality from their originals, such as Dark Pit, Daisy and Dark Samus. Dixie literally can't be an echo given she has her own distinct playstyle from Diddy, that was meant to compliment his in DKC2. You do make a good point on Black Knight. He'd have to have different weight to be properly represented.
 

TheBeastHimself

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I'm trying to be respectful and I absolutely in no way meant to bring a swarm of negativity to this support thread. I already flat out stated that Black Knight would be pretty cool in my original post, I do like the character.

Just because this is a support thread doesn't mean that every post has to be positive and in favor of the character. Opposing view points and I guess you could say controversy is another way to get interesting conversations going. I don't have to make a completely separate thread to state my opinions just so I don't bring negativity here. If you guys truly support this character, then you should have no trouble popping that protective bubble and accepting the criticism I presented without being like "hey don't be hating on my character in their thread."

I get I didn't really bring any new arguments to the table, but nobody should be getting annoyed when someone brings up an opposing viewpoint. However, I do understand getting irritated at me for not bring up anything new.
 
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Sigran101

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I'm trying to be respectful and I absolutely in no way meant to bring a swarm of negativity to this support thread. I already flat out stated that Black Knight would be pretty cool in my original post, I do like the character.

Just because this is a support thread doesn't mean that every post has to be positive and in favor of the character. Opposing view points and I guess you could say controversy is another way to get interesting conversations going. I don't have to make a completely separate thread to state my opinions just so I don't bring negativity here. If you guys truly support this character, then you should have no trouble popping that protective bubble and accepting the criticism I presented without being like "hey don't be hating on my character in their thread."

I get I didn't really bring any new arguments to the table, but nobody should be getting annoyed when someone brings up an opposing viewpoint. However, I do understand getting irritated at me for not bring up anything new.
Hey, don't worry about it. At least you got us talking. As fire emblem fans, we just hear this argument a lot, but I can understand an outsider not knowing that. For the record, I do think some bits of it are reasonable. Fe does have a disproportionate amount of characters to the rest of the roster, but imo they're all either justified (whether I personally like them or not) by the revolving door cast that fe has or are just echoes that don't take up much space.
 
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I'm trying to be respectful and I absolutely in no way meant to bring a swarm of negativity to this support thread. I already flat out stated that Black Knight would be pretty cool in my original post, I do like the character.

Just because this is a support thread doesn't mean that every post has to be positive and in favor of the character. Opposing view points and I guess you could say controversy is another way to get interesting conversations going. I don't have to make a completely separate thread to state my opinions just so I don't bring negativity here. If you guys truly support this character, then you should have no trouble popping that protective bubble and accepting the criticism I presented without being like "hey don't be hating on my character in their thread."

I get I didn't really bring any new arguments to the table, but nobody should be getting annoyed when someone brings up an opposing viewpoint. However, I do understand getting irritated at me for not bring up anything new.

Honestly it is disagreement like yours that I find most healthy for this. The “I do not want for xyz but still think it’s a decent idea” sort of dissent.

Though you might want to be a little more accepting of him 12/7.
 

LoopyBlack

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in my own personal opinion Fire Emblem is basically a big mess in Smash Bros with a few of it's characters just being clones of each other. I'm not sure why but Sakurai just got trigger happy when making the Smash 4 roster, and Corrin as dlc was basically just an advertisement.
In a "big picture" sense, FE's representation in Smash makes perfect sense. Marth represents the first games in the series on NES and Famicom, Roy represents the GBA games, Ike represents the console games, and Robin/Corrin represent the newer, more popular games. Then we have the clone characters who are incredibly popular, but weren't given new movesets so they took far less development time. As far as FE fans are concerned, there's only one "era" of FE that's not represented in Smash (Judgural; FE4+5). And that's a pretty good deal for us, no doubt. But there are several things that will make you realize that FE isn't like, represented to an egregious extent.

Roy was just a clone character in the first place, so he didn't consume that much development time. I believe Sakurai said that the 6 or so clones in Melee took about as much time as one original fighter would've taken. His return to Smash 4 and Ultimate was prompted by his popularity in Melee. Roy is kind of like Falcon where, as far as many people are concerned, he's a Smash Bros character.

The 3DS era gets two reps. That seems disproportionate but Awakening and Fates are both incredibly popular games. Robin and Corrin are actually nice because they don't just use their swords. So Sakurai found a way to implement popular characters without them being redundant.

Corrin was DLC. That means that Marth, Ike, and Robin were the sole unique FE fighters introduced in the base versions of their debut Smash games. Sidebar: if Ultimate doesn't introduce a new, unique FE fighter, it would be the first time that has happened since Smash 64.

What I'm basically saying is: there's no reason to be upset over FE representation in Smash. I wouldn't fault someone for thinking FE is disproportionately represented since, on the surface, it has like 7 characters. But that number is misleading, hopefully I was able to communicate that somewhat effectively
 

TheBeastHimself

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You bring up very good points Loopy. I was actually unaware of how much meaning is behind those 7 characters.

I have another question now... Do you guys believe that Fire Emblem is big enough of a franchise to warrant characters from almost every FE generation in comparison to franchises like DK, Zelda, and Kirby?
 
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Sigran101

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You bring up very good points Loopy. I was actually unaware of how much meaning is behind those 7 characters.

I have another question now... Do you guys believe that Fire Emblem is big enough of a franchise to warrant characters from almost every FE generation in comparison to franchises like DK, Zelda, and Kirby?
I do believe that, but only because of the fact that each game has a different main character. Like Link can represent every Legend of Zelda game, but FE protagonists can't. If we only had Marth we wouldn't have anything to represent Binding Blade, Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn, Awakening, or Fates. If FE had the same format as LoZ I would think it was too much.
 

LostEggs

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I can agree with you, Sigran. I don't hate Fire Emblem or anything, but there's just too many characters in right now. In my own personal opinion, I'd be cool with:

Marth, Roy, Ike, and Black Knight.

I'm also not trying to discredit Fire Emblem's popularity. For where the series stands at the moment, four characters is good enough. Maybe five as an exception for Robin. But to say that Fire Emblem is popular enough to deserve more than 4-5 characters is either an exaggeration or just wishful thinking. Fire Emblem has its fanbase, don't get me wrong, but Zelda should have 7 characters if anything.
The series grosses 400 million a year, it's absolutely big and popular enough to justify a new
You bring up very good points Loopy. I was actually unaware of how much meaning is behind those 7 characters.

I have another question now... Do you guys believe that Fire Emblem is big enough of a franchise to warrant characters from almost every FE generation in comparison to franchises like DK, Zelda, and Kirby?
I have two points I want to convey. First, FE grosses 400 million a year now, it's unquestionably one of Nintendo's major franchises. It'd be kinda wrong to not give the last major franchise present no vilian representation. And second, FE could represent every era since Genealogy isn't represented. And if a rep from there got in I'd want it's first major vilian to be in, Arvis. He uses Hell fire and is an armor unit, and he's radically different from the majority of characters in FE. But the reason why the Black Knight makes the most sense as a new rep is that like all the other major vilians he has a counterpart in the game, no other rep has a vilian counterpart who is both equally iconic as the Black Knight as he is popular that can fit in the game (from a size standpoint, Grima is arguably just as popular but he's the size of a mountain range). And Black Knight has been a huge marketing point for IS in FEH, he's the only character who can be specifically purchased and is marketed as such. Heck, he even got a live action commercial. And the fact Sakurai had his eye on him to the point he made him a Mii costume with custom assets made from scratch like King K Rool's was is suspect, granted he could be anything if he's even in, but if we get any more FE reps it's gotta be a vilian. Ike's voice lines were updated, why change what was already functional unless he's meant to say a new line (maybe to his nemesis)? Ah, one thing that bears pointing out from a cultural standpoint is the number 8 is special, it's the Asian continents equivalent to the wests lucky number 7. Sakurai might decide to add an 8th rep to close out representation just on that alone he is rather capricious like that. Sorry for the wall of text.
 
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HypnoMaster372

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https://youtu.be/hegctTFSV1Y this guy raises some decent points. Granted my estimate for Black Knight being is is 82% compared to his. But I hope that the blog post theory is correct, so it gives Black Knight a more plausible chance of getting in as a fighter.
While I do agree with most points Loopy made, I must disagree with Loopy stating that Isabelle Trailer is of lower production due to being a Light-Clone instead of fully Unique. Really the reason why is that it wouldn’t fit Animal Crossing at all if Isabelle Trailer was fast-paced & action-filled like the others, instead having a slower-paced, less energy-pumping trailer suits more in line with what the Animal Crossing Franchise is; causal everyday-life-simulation games.
 
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The main reason the series gets so much representation is because it has so many protagonists. Yes, longtime fan requests from other series should be prioritized, DKC needs its final rep in Dixie, and yeah I think Mario should get some more too, as it's Nintendo's flagship franchise (Waluigi why did you have to be denied) but after that, where do we go next? Already the Smash roster has reached a point where people have to start looking for obscure or unpopular characters for additional reps for other series, with only the previously mentioned franchises, Kirby, LoZ, and Star Fox not being at this point (aside from single rep series). Mario still has maybe 3 more characters (Wah, Geno, and Toad) before they really start getting low, DKC really only has Dixie left, LoZ could still get Skull Kid and maaaaaaaybe pig Ganon but they really don't have a whole lot of notable choices after that. Kirby still has a lot to pull from, I think it should ideally be at 5 or 6 since they have a lot of very unique characters not in yet, Star Fox has already lost it's only truly possible newcomer, I guess Kid Icarus still has some options like Medusa or Magnus, but they're probably hesitant to add more because the series is dead again. The point is-Black Knight is really cool and we need more heavies and more villains. Not sorry for having a huge wall of text because I like doing that.
 
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Machete

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I apologize if this comes across as aggressive but why do people come into a thread just add nothing but negativity to it? Like, I don't care at all about Steve or Decidueye or something but that doesn't mean they don't have people that would be hype for them, nor should I walk in and say "your overrated bird pokemon sucks because there's already 9 pokemans." It's one thing to voice your complaints about it on a different thread but going on to a support thread and saying this is the equivalent of walking up to a woman minding her own business and saying "I have to say your dress looks like dog****." It's OK to think it but it's just plain rude to walk up on somebody else's parade just to take a dump on it, we're not 4Chan here.
It fosters discussion. Echo chambers aren't good, and it's important to know the opposing views. He went at it in a respectful manner, too. That kind of thing should be welcomed, it breathes life into discussion.

As for his points, I honestly agree that Fire Emblem shouldn't have as many characters as it currently has if we were only talking about how iconic or successful a franchise is. But that's never been the case in Smash Bros, really, or else we'd only have Mario characters, Pokémons, Link and Zelda, Wii Fit Trainer and the Miis. Just looking at pure numbers, Fire Emblem should be glad if it had anything besides Marth, Robin and Corrin, with Fire Emblem Heroes' Veronica as a newcomer*, but again, that's not the case.

First of all, I think it's unrealistic to expect fans of a character or franchise to be impartial when we are talking about what they want. Does, say, Isabelle, deserve to get into Smash before Captain Falcon? By most metrics she does, but does that mean that's something the fans want? If you were to ask an Isaac fan who "deserves" to get into Smash, if Isaac or Inkling, well, I am sure most would agree that Inkling deserves it more, but that doesn't mean they don't want Isaac more. Black Knight is a secondary antagonist of two of the least succesful Fire Emblem games, so I don't think anyone will say that Black Knight "deserves" to be in Smash. But if you like the character, you'll want them in Smash, of course.

And yeah, the oversaturation of Fire Emblem characters is a bit too much, but then again, Fire Emblem is a franchise that appeals through its characters. Especially nowadays, with FEH being a succesful gacha banking entirely on them. You can argue that it's in no small part due to Smash Bros making characters like Ike and Roy extremely popular, but that's irrelevant to the point that Fire Emblem has loads of characters to be used. And its Black Knight's merits as a character that make people want him in Smash, not that he deserves it. A character like King K. Rool was a glaring omission in Smash Bros based on his resume alone, so you could say that he deserved to be in, but nobody is arguing that Black Knight is on the same boat. People just like him, and want to play as him. He is easily based off Ike, who is the most popular Fire Emblem character thanks to his Smash Bros appearance, so you know Black Knight would also be well received as he'd play similarly. Most people agree on his kick-*** design, and he even fulfills the villain quota many think it's sorely lacking, especially on a franchise with so many characters. Does that mean he "deserves" it? No, but it's enough for a lot of us to want him.

As an aside, yeah, there are franchises that should have more characters. My most wanted is Midna. Twilight Princess is literally named after her and that game sold almost as much as the entire Fire Emblem franchise. Dixie Kong was the star of her own game (that, again, outsold any given Fire Emblem game) and co-star of others. Kirby... I don't know anything about it, but it's big and popular so surely there's characters in there that also "deserve" it. But that's the thing, Black Knight being in wouldn't be taking the spot of a more deserving character. He'd be a character that got in because he was the cool-looking antagonist of a supremely popular character, who didn't need much effort because their fighting styles are literally the same.

*I totally think she'd be rad and I'd like her a lot as DLC. She's easily Fire Emblem Heroes' most iconic character and the face of Nintendo mobile gaming.
 

Arsenal234

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I don't mean to be one of those people but just because I have an unpopular opinion doesn't mean I should keep my mouth shut.

There are 7 FE characters in Smash right now. When it was 6 in Smash 4 that was more than enough. Mario has 8 characters, and that makes sense because Mario is Nintendo's most popular franchise. Unless you're into the series, FE isn't really the first thing anyway thinks of when they think "Ninendo".

I'm not gonna lie Black Knight would be pretty cool, but in my own personal opinion Fire Emblem is basically a big mess in Smash Bros with a few of it's characters just being clones of each other. I'm not sure why but Sakurai just got trigger happy when making the Smash 4 roster, and Corrin as dlc was basically just an advertisement. I'm not saying Fire Emblem is this trash series undeserving of characters, but I seriously would not want more sword fighting clones hogging up the roster. Think about it:

Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Kirby definitely deserve more reps. They're practically right underneath Mario in popularity. Yet for some reason Fire Emblem gets twice the amount of representation that they have.

I would rather have a character from any other franchise in existence (even f'n Call of Duty) than Fire Emblem. At least until the roster gets even bigger in future games (if Smash 6 onwards is a thing). As it stands right now, Fire Emblem is sorta unfair and it's a little ridiculous that it's rivaling Mario in terms of characters.
People always bring up Mario and Pokemon's sales as justification for the amount of characters the series get. In reality its really "I like these series so they should get more characters". To be honest even if Fire Emblem sold more than Mario and Pokemon combined people would still say FE has too many characters. Sakurai isn't adding these characters for the people who don't like Fire Emblem, he is adding them for the people that do. When people say FE shouldn't get any more characters it is like saying " I don't care if other people have wanted this character for years, they shouldn't get this character because I don't want this character ". When people say X amount of characters is good enough for a series that is just an opinion and, obviously Sakurai disagrees so why bring it up? Others have already brought up the fact that FE has many different protagonists vs other series that have a main character and then side characters. :ultmarth:,:ultike:,:ultroy:,:ultchrom:, and :ultcorrin: each represent their own games. :ultmarth:has 4 games if you include the remakes, and:ultike: has 2 games making 9 different games get represented / advertised. Its not like FE is a dead series, it is one of nintendo's best selling series, it makes sense that nintendo would advertise FE in their big advertisement game. How else are other series going to get to the levels of LoZ, Pokemon or Mario without advertisement?
 

Aeon Lupin

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While I do agree with most points Loopy made, I must disagree with Loopy stating that Isabelle Trailer is of lower production due to being a Light-Clone instead of fully Unique. Really the reason why is that It wouldn’t fit Animal Crossing at all if Isabelle Trailer was fast-paced & action-filled like the others, instead having a slower-paced, less energy-pumping trailer suits more in line with what the Animal Crossing Franchise is; causal everyday-life-stimulation games.
I agree. It's a taste thing, really. But that's the best part about Smash, that all these divergent series are coming together, each with their own distinct theme and style. You get to have weird as heck matchups like Isabelle vs Ridley. Two characters who couldn't be more different. It's that kind of stuff that sets Smash apart from other Fighters.
 

Sigran101

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I feel like the problem with Black Knight making it as unique is that there are a lot of unique characters that would get in before him. I can't imagine there are more than 4 unique newcomers left. Incineroar is obviously one. Geno is most likely another. At that point there's 2 spots left, and competition includes Elma, Bandana Dee, Banjo, Dixie, Shadow, Isaac, and Skull Kid at least. There's just no way BK gets one of those spots. Echoes have a lot more room. If there's 4 more echoes, we know one is Ken, so the last three are between impa, Medusa, and possibly Dixie or Shadow. Black Knight stands a much better chance there. Granted I don't think there are still 8 more characters anyway, but imo regardless of whether he fits, it's echo or nothing. If he really doesn't fit as an echo, then his chances are basically zero.
 

LoopyBlack

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I feel like the problem with Black Knight making it as unique is that there are a lot of unique characters that would get in before him. I can't imagine there are more than 4 unique newcomers left.
I definitely feel that. His competition are characters that actually polled well on the fighter ballot, from series that don't have as many fighters. Isaac, Geno, Skull Kid, Incineroar, Waddle Dee, and even Shantae and Banjo are all characters I'd say are likely to appear (I'm still coping with Steve, don't judge). We probably aren't getting all of those plus BK so someone's gotta get left out. BK's chances rest on them possibly pushing for more villains, and that conspicuous castle siege edit. Unfortunately we won't get anymore hints or info until the next Smash direct so... October's gonna suck.
 
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This wait is gonna kill me. Either way, I hope he's playable regardless if he's an echo or not. I want another vilian to play besides Ganondorf that I'm willing to sink time into (I'll definitely pick up Ridley and K Rool, dunno if I'll pocket them or not though).
Yeah, I'm really hoping for a demo or something eventually, I'd even play it if it's paid only I just need some Ultimate in my life.

AndalsomaybeaddBlackKnightpleaseSakurai
 

Ultinarok

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I don't mean to be one of those people but just because I have an unpopular opinion doesn't mean I should keep my mouth shut.

There are 7 FE characters in Smash right now. When it was 6 in Smash 4 that was more than enough. Mario has 8 characters, and that makes sense because Mario is Nintendo's most popular franchise. Unless you're into the series, FE isn't really the first thing anyway thinks of when they think "Ninendo".

I'm not gonna lie Black Knight would be pretty cool, but in my own personal opinion Fire Emblem is basically a big mess in Smash Bros with a few of it's characters just being clones of each other. I'm not sure why but Sakurai just got trigger happy when making the Smash 4 roster, and Corrin as dlc was basically just an advertisement. I'm not saying Fire Emblem is this trash series undeserving of characters, but I seriously would not want more sword fighting clones hogging up the roster. Think about it:

Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Kirby definitely deserve more reps. They're practically right underneath Mario in popularity. Yet for some reason Fire Emblem gets twice the amount of representation that they have.

I would rather have a character from any other franchise in existence (even f'n Call of Duty) than Fire Emblem. At least until the roster gets even bigger in future games (if Smash 6 onwards is a thing). As it stands right now, Fire Emblem is sorta unfair and it's a little ridiculous that it's rivaling Mario in terms of characters.
One factor that never gets considered when people complain about the number of Fire Emblem characters, is that FE has the largest character roster of any Nintendo game besides Pokemon. The series has more than 600 characters who ALL fight. Some series may be bigger and "deserve" more fighters, but how many characters are there in those series can truly be a Smash fighter?

Fire Emblem is one of the only IPs Nintendo has that completely changes it's roster of characters almost every game. Mario has a billion games, but they all have the same dozen or so major characters at most. EACH Fire Emblem game has more than 50 characters. When you factor that in, along with the fact that many FE Smash fighters take attributes from each other, FE is not as overrepresented as everyone claims. Around 1% of all FE characters are playable fighters in Smash. That actually makes it UNDER repped relative to it's roster compared to any series but Pokemon. It's not a widely known IP on the level of the big hitters, but it has 15 games, and plenty of people really like them. Including Sakurai. If there are 8 FE fighters and 3 of them are Echoes, I fail to see the issue when a HUGE number of major characters in the series can't be in Smash AT ALL because it's got too many to feasibly implement.

Honestly, it all comes back to the hatred of "anime swordsman" and the fact that people scapegoat FE (and KI) for their own favorite series getting shafted in Smash 4. Like Metroid and DK. BOTH of which are getting some much needed tlc now. So what's the problem with Black Knight?
 
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HypnoMaster372

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One factor that never gets considered when people complain about the number of Fire Emblem characters, is that FE has the largest character roster of any Nintendo game besides Pokemon. The series has more than 600 characters who ALL fight. Some series may be bigger and "deserve" more fighters, but how many characters are there in those series can truly be a Smash fighter?

Fire Emblem is one of the only IPs Nintendo has that completely changes it's roster of characters almost every game. Mario has a billion games, but they all have the same dozen or so major characters at most. EACH Fire Emblem game has more than 50 characters. When you factor that in, along with the fact that many FE Smash fighters take attributes from each other, FE is not as overrepresented as everyone claims. Around 1% of all FE characters are playable fighters in Smash. That actually makes it UNDER repped relative to it's roster compared to any series but Pokemon. It's not a widely known IP on the level of the big hitters, but it has 15 games, and plenty of people really like them. Including Sakurai. If there are 8 FE fighters and 3 of them are Echoes, I fail to see the issue when a HUGE number of major characters in the series can't be in Smash AT ALL because it's got too many to feasibly implement.

Honestly, it all comes back to the hatred of "anime swordsman" and the fact that people scapegoat FE (and KI) for their own favorite series getting shafted in Smash 4. Like Metroid and DK. BOTH of which are getting some much needed tlc now. So what's the problem with Black Knight?
Really, just becuase FE have the largest roster of characters out of all Nintendo franshes doesn't mean it should be an excuse so FE can more characters in Smash over other higher-selling franhises. But I'll allow User Gohitelle post from the 'How Come so Many People are Taking a Dump of FE Lately' Thread here to explain what many of the Ant-FE Smash Fans probably feel about FE representation in Smash -
Would it be wrong to say that the reason FE representation is so hated by Smash fans is probably not because of it's quantity, but how much fan-favourite characters there are? The Legend Of Zelda series is pretty dodgy for representation - three Links, two Zeldas, and a Ganondorf, put in over more unique characters like Skull Kid, Midna, etc. Pokemon, meanwhile, keeps getting marketing representatives rather than fan wanted ones - between Greninja in Sm4sh and it looking like Incineroar for Ultimate, we won't have got a Pokemon not motivated by marketing since 2008, a whole decade. Between Mario, Pokemon, LoZ, and FE - the four largest represented series - only Mario and Fire Emblem really have a varied roster of fighters.

That said, I've never played a Fire Emblem, but I earnestly enjoy seeing it get new representatives. It's such a massive series with a spectrum of protagonists compared to say, Mario, where almost every game has the same cast (most of which are already in the game), and as a result, each new character feels fair.
 
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Ultinarok

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I don't think anyone's making the argument that FE deserves more reps because of its character list. Most here are making the argument that FE deserves to have a vilian who can work. Especially when every other major franchise has at least one vilian a piece.
It doesn't deserve more because of it no. But it is a reason why what we have isn't really "too many". Especially given the situation where many of them re-use assets from one another. They do not get a disproportionately large amount of time, energy and representation (relative to the actual scale of characters) like everyone claims. I mean the games have three total stages, 1 AT and only 1 item. And 2 of it's characters are Echoes (and 1 is a semi-clone). Its not as overblown as people make it seem.
 

Sigran101

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Given Sakurai's comments and any other recent developments, what do people think Black Knight's chances are now? I'm at about 10%. I'd be pretty surprised if he makes it at this point.
 

HypnoMaster372

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Given Sakurai's comments and any other recent developments, what do people think Black Knight's chances are now? I'm at about 10%. I'd be pretty surprised if he makes it at this point.
If you’re talking about what he said about slowing down the character reveals, well, I don’t think it really affect anything in the speculation. It just Sakurai & the team not wanting to announce a bunch of characters in short amount of time, rather them spacing the rest out to instead to fill up the rest of the time before release. Plus, I think it safe to say there probably aren’t that many left anyway, so it changes nothing for me ;)
 
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Sigran101

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Someone mentioned that Ike has new lines in ultimate. If that's true it could potentially be good for BK. I know he has a new voice actor but is it confirmed that he has new lines as well? I can't find confirmation on this.
 

LostEggs

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Someone mentioned that Ike has new lines in ultimate. If that's true it could potentially be good for BK. I know he has a new voice actor but is it confirmed that he has new lines as well? I can't find confirmation on this.
I brought it up. In the E3 showing they called attention to Ike's new voice and iirc said they rerecorded his lines iirc. Why do that when his previous lines were perfectly functional, unless he says something to someone he knows?

Also Sakurai said they were merely slowing down, not cutting back on content. Knowing how he said he added characters like Ganondorf last second in Melee and Lucina mid development in Wii U I'm sure he's added some more characters who weren't planned. And since Black Knight is the only first party Mii costume left who hasn't been confirmed or deconfirmed I think his odds are good...at least better than poor Viridi getting delegated to stage background. I'd peg his odds at 70%, tbh since Smash has always used big bosses I don't see him as a boss. So as long as he isn't a assist I think he'll be playable (either in base or DLC).
 
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Wait, you can purchase Black Knight directly in Heroes? I had no idea that was a thing. Welp, time to go make my first micro transaction.

Edit: He's actually the only one? Because if that's true that's extremely significant.
yes for 3.99 you get 12 orbs, 12 lights blessings, 12 stamina potions and 12 black knight.
obviously the big prize is the black knight, the pack is mostly intended for starting, but this is a very popular villain for new players or a merge for everyone who got the original 2.

I also don't recall any other packs, he is the only one.

edit: regarding odds, my position is where it has been, 63%, sakurai's statements don't hurt post theory, someone needs to get the shaft, yes, but that doesn't mean it needs to be the black knight.
 
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LostEggs

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yes for 3.99 you get 12 orbs, 12 lights blessings, 12 stamina potions and 12 black knight.
obviously the big prize is the black knight, the pack is mostly intended for starting, but this is a very popular villain for new players or a merge for everyone who got the original 2.

I also don't recall any other packs, he is the only one.

edit: regarding odds, my position is where it has been, 63%, sakurai's statements don't hurt post theory, someone needs to get the shaft, yes, but that doesn't mean it needs to be the black knight.
Both hilariouslyand sadly, I think F-Zero is going to get shafted. Nintendo just refuses to acknowledge it and it's fans. So if any characters are getting shafted it's probably a F-Zero character and probably not Black Knight.
 
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