The how to handle stupid moves thread! (REVIVAL! snake ftilt.)!)

[Aurasmash14]

uhh guys... bananas??

 

[Kitamerby]

I'm telling you guys. If you throw your charged AS as Diddy throws his banana at you, they pass through each other. Diddy absolutely cannot shield the AS if you do this properly. You will trip and take around 5%, and he will take 13-26% and possibly die. If you can get this down well enough, he'll start being very wary about throwing bananas at you as an approach.


It's seriously probably one of if not our best defense against Diddy Kong. Learn the startup of his throw animation, guys!

 

[RT]

Diddy absolutely cannot shield the AS if you do this properly.

I'll test this out later today. I'm almost certain he can powershield before the AS hits him.

 

[HyperEnergy]

I'm telling you guys. If you throw your charged AS as Diddy throws his banana at you, they pass through each other. Diddy absolutely cannot shield the AS if you do this properly. You will trip and take around 5%, and he will take 13-26% and possibly die. If you can get this down well enough, he'll start being very wary about throwing bananas at you as an approach.


It's seriously probably one of if not our best defense against Diddy Kong. Learn the startup of his throw animation, guys!

QFT

Once I started doing this I found it ten times easier to fight Diddy Kong.

 

[D. Disciple]

Yeah I started doing that, lol. Makes Diddy Kong mains mad

 

[ckm]

i hate diddy kong. I was hoping people would have more suggestions/tips...

 

[D. Disciple]

Aura Sphere when they throw bananas is an extremely good tip. the trade hit is in your favor. Other than that, get in their face.

 

[Gnes]

I'm telling you guys. If you throw your charged AS as Diddy throws his banana at you, they pass through each other. Diddy absolutely cannot shield the AS if you do this properly. You will trip and take around 5%, and he will take 13-26% and possibly die. If you can get this down well enough, he'll start being very wary about throwing bananas at you as an approach.


It's seriously probably one of if not our best defense against Diddy Kong. Learn the startup of his throw animation, guys!

This is wrong...but i still love u guys. It would most likely only be useful at close range...but i have no idea why a Lucario with AS at close range. I've seen Lee try to do this to Fliphop many times in their matches, it fails 90% of the time.

Also...did anyone think about diddy jumping over AS and throwing the naner mid-air???

 

[iRJi]

This is wrong...but i still love u guys. It would most likely only be useful at close range...but i have no idea why a Lucario with AS at close range. I've seen Lee try to do this to Fliphop many times in their matches, it fails 90% of the time.

Also...did anyone think about diddy jumping over AS and throwing the naner mid-air???

Lol =]

Annway, Just get the Banana's off the map. It possibly the easiest thing to do then to try and semi trade with them. If Diddy doesn't have his banana's hes much easier to just rush him down or something of the sort. I personally wouldn't even try to play with the banana's at all, and just get rid of them ASAP.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Ok I think we have bananas down pat. what do you guys vote for the next move?

 

[Kitamerby]

This is wrong...but i still love u guys. It would most likely only be useful at close range...but i have no idea why a Lucario with AS at close range. I've seen Lee try to do this to Fliphop many times in their matches, it fails 90% of the time.

Also...did anyone think about diddy jumping over AS and throwing the naner mid-air???

Twas a bit of an inside joke.

Diddy's throw is three frames. It's more important to learn when they usually throw, or toss out your AS as soon as you see them throw it.

Also, if they jump over AS, I doubt they'd really be in any good position to throw the banana anyways.

 

[GBye]

Ok I think we have bananas down pat. what do you guys vote for the next move?

How about Wario´s footstool fart? :D

 

[Aurasmash14]

I was thinking more of marth fair...

 

[phi1ny3]

Marth fair, or DB are pretty good ideas...

 

[D. Disciple]

lol, RJ and I were talking about that.

 

[phi1ny3]

This, I can talk about. There's been very few Warios and snakes around my area (one snake has turned up recently), and one Diddy has kinda showed up recently, so I had no input on those chars lol.

 

[ckm]

snake ftilt plz.

 

[Aurasmash14]

*looks at OP. realizes he hasnt updated since MK >_>*

I think we should do marth fair first before snake ftilt. the range and the disjointed hitbox is freakishly annoying.

 

[Kitamerby]

Marth's fair is gay both onstage and off, although we have more options against it onstage.

Onstage, shield the fair, try to powershield it, and then fair or nair oos to snag him. If he goes for a crossup, you probably can shieldgrab him. In theory, if you know he's gonna crossup, you theoretically may be able to pull off that fancy powershield to pivot grab if you start off by dashing towards him. If you're lucky, you may be able to also hit him with Aura Sphere if he hasn't perfected how to slash it out, or if he uses Fair early and is in commitment time between the first fair and the next, though this probably won't be happening much unless he's being preemptive with his zoning.

Offstage, you're pretty screwed. You probably should do your best to save your double jump and double jump airdodge through the fairs, as that's pretty much your only option, other than maybe aura sphere slightly out of range to catch him off guard or put him in commitment time so you can pass him... Maybe you could also reverse AS and hope for a bair, but even that gets outranged at the tipper, so all in all you just gotta be lucky and outsmart him. Dair stalls may buy you some time if used properly. If all else fails, just try to DI up and hope he doesn't semi-spike you or something. Fair offstage just plain wrecks Luc, sadly.

Marth's fair is very good. I really don't have much Marth experience, so other than the airdodge the offstage and powershield fair onstage, the rest is pretty much theorycraft and ideas that may work. =\

I tried. Disciple, or even RJ, help me out here plz.

However, I'm guessing the one real decider here for his Fair being either your worst nightmare or just a very big nuisance is just if the Marth has perfected slashing out Aura Sphere. If he has (and many Marths I've noticed can), you're really screwed, and if he hasn't, you get a bit of breathing room and overall have a much better chance of winning.

 

[iRJi]

Ill post something between sometime tonight or tomorrow. I have a lot of work that needs to get done.

 

[Browny]

risk v reward for attempting to fair full charge AS says...

umad kita

unless you give marth like half a second to react that really shouldnt be happening. remeber people, the idea isnt to throw AS at the enemy hoping it will hit. wait for them to approach and REACT accordingly. they shouldnt be reacting to the aura sphere in time to perfectly space a tipper fair, lest they risk 13-26% and possible KO

 

[ckm]

I think the biggest reason scrubcarios get ***** so bad by fair on stage is because they 1) always approach with fair and 2) try to wall marth with fsmash

In other words, learn how to fight with other tools because fair ***** both of these.

Yeah, it sucks not being able to use fair as much, but this doesnt mean you can't use it... jsut dont be predictable with it (like using it every time you're in range lol), and if you know hes gonna fair just jump & airdodge or shield and roll away. or AS, as the others suggested.

I like to jump & airdodge and fire a reverse AS (not b-reverse, just turnaround). Sometimes this can hit.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.... stop trying to do those 2 things to marth and learn to fight him differently and you'll do a whole lot better in this matchup.

 

[phi1ny3]

Learn all the variations, and the weaknesses to exploit in each of them.
As everyone knows, it autocancels, so it lets a lot of different possiblities flow in and out.
More on it later.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Finally we got a bump. Thanks Kita.

umm, just to ask, can AS break through fair at higher percentages?

 

[Kitamerby]

risk v reward for attempting to fair full charge AS says...

umad kita

unless you give marth like half a second to react that really shouldnt be happening. remeber people, the idea isnt to throw AS at the enemy hoping it will hit. wait for them to approach and REACT accordingly. they shouldnt be reacting to the aura sphere in time to perfectly space a tipper fair, lest they risk 13-26% and possible KO

I pretend everyone I fight is a super genius.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Marth's fair only ***** fsmash if you're not spacing it properly. A well-timed, well-spaced (stutter stepping helps) fsmash is pretty much impossible for Marth to get through from the air.

 

[phi1ny3]

^This.
It's why even high level marths note lucario's fsmash utility (not that it should be spammed or anything).
Ftilt as far as I've seen works really well if you've PS'd their fair. Most other punishments kind of depend on what variation of fair they used or if they misspaced them.

 

[iRJi]

Marth's fair only ***** fsmash if you're not spacing it properly. A well-timed, well-spaced (stutter stepping helps) fsmash is pretty much impossible for Marth to get through from the air.

For anticipation sake, Fsmash is a good thing to use only if you know he is going to Jump and Fair you. Also, on the rising Fair its best to just Ftilt.

^This.
It's why even high level marths note lucario's fsmash utility (not that it should be spammed or anything).
Ftilt as far as I've seen works really well if you've PS'd their fair. Most other punishments kind of depend on what variation of fair they used or if they misspaced them.

Ftilt is actually the best way to punish fair overall, but you have to take down Marths fair in separate ways to properly Analyze it. When Marth is doing a rising Fair, you can punish with Ftilt, or even sometimes Uair depending on how far he is trying to go with it. On the falling Fair, the best punishment is grab if you are in range after shielding. Other then that back off from marth. The reason why its best to use grab on the falling fair instead of any other move is because Marth can punish anything else you throw (Jab, Utilt, ETC) Not to mention Grab i the only option you have straight out of shield without using shield drop, which you have to take account for because shield dropping has frame lag. It's small, but in that case it really matters.

 

[ckm]

For anticipation sake, Fsmash is a good thing to use only if you know he is going to Jump and Fair you. Also, on the rising Fair its best to just Ftilt.




Ftilt is actually the best way to punish fair overall, but you have to take down Marths fair in separate ways to properly Analyze it. When Marth is doing a rising Fair, you can punish with Ftilt, or even sometimes Uair depending on how far he is trying to go with it. On the falling Fair, the best punishment is grab if you are in range after shielding. Other then that back off from marth. The reason why its best to use grab on the falling fair instead of any other move is because Marth can punish anything else you throw (Jab, Utilt, ETC) Not to mention Grab i the only option you have straight out of shield without using shield drop, which you have to take account for because shield dropping has frame lag. It's small, but in that case it really matters.

Doesnt jumping out of shield cancel the shield drop?

 

[Reapereater]

I've had trouble with this today. How do I handle pikachu's stupid spammable thunder move. You know the thing that goes striking down. I can't use btilt because I'll be too close. My aura sphere won't do much because After I lauch it I'll be too close and pikachu will do it again. Basically how?!?! o.o

 

[phi1ny3]

btilt? What's that? bair, or ftilt? o.O
You prolly ought to space better unless you're in the air when he's doing it, then you can either try DT (lolzy idea though), or get out of the way, if you DI'd dsmash he doesn't have any real setup for it, so it's not a big threat if done correctly.
If you're on the ground though, you should probably reverse your momentum while firing AS so that you retreat a bit, at least from what it sounds like in your situation.
It's really kind of confusing what exactly you're in, thunder kills people who AD as the default reaction, it's really a matter of practicing against the move to play smarter.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Double Team runs the risk of still getting hit by Thunder :x

Pikas should be only able to successfully spam this by doing it offstage by the ledge, otherwise it becomes quite punishable. If you're on the ground Fsmash should get it if you space well.

 

[phi1ny3]

If lucario dair stalls while the thunder is going on, he doesn't lose much altitude (at least compared to other characters) and he'll still be safe from thunder (assuming he's spacing properly offstage). Thunder is a move that will affect you if you don't have a clue on how to fight it.

 

[Alus]

Btilt? What?

It sounds exactly like your playing too aggressive in a game full of lag. That seems to be the only way he could go through the lag of thunder, zip to you, and thunder again and you get hit by it when you're using AS.

Anyways you need to move this question somewhere else because people here are talking about Marth's Fair.

EDIT: Is everyone here on invisible?

 

[phi1ny3]

Marth fair can also be rolled, provided he isn't retreating with it.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's really kind of confusing what exactly you're in, thunder kills people who AD as the default reaction, it's really a matter of practicing against the move to play smarter.

Correction: Thunder kills people who have short airdodges and bad acceleration if they aren't in motion. I don't have any problem avoiding thunder in the air as long as I've already started moving before the thunder reaches me in my airdodge. In short, as long as you're moving before the thunder starts up, you should pass through no problem. If you're falling without any movement horizontally, you'll take a little longer to get moving at top speed, so you might be hit even if you airdodge.

Utilt also sets up for it, so always remember to DI properly and never fall straight down when fighting a grounded pikachu when you're up high.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I just tested it tonight, but B Reversals and wavebouncing should really do amazing against Marth's FAir.

If you have it charged you can reverse the Aura Sphere when you feel that you can hit him.

Also try wavebouncing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG098jC4in0 1:50ish I know its old, but it still has some applications we haven't really looked into yet. Not only you can wavebounce Aura Spheres, but you can wavebounce Force Palm. Look even more closely and notice the hitbox of Force Palm SEPARATES from Lucario if he's going backwards from the direction that he aimed Force Palm in. You know how Marths will try to swat at Aura Spheres, but you might be able to fool them to swatting at nothing and get him with a Force Palm. I need to check to see if Force Palm has rising priority like Aura Sphere or if someone already knows that'd be sweet. Not to mention Force Palm's horizontal distance is greater than Marth's FAir. However, I'm probably a little too excited and this will need more testing

Regular B Reversals can work too if you space well enough. Not to mention fewer start up frames to launch the blue ball with wavebouncing or B Reversals (if charging)...

20% Aura Spheres (min: fresh full charge at 91%) beat Marth's non-tippered FAir.

Retreating FAirs seem to be the most problematic for me, but you force him to approach regardless.

If you guys would like I could test all of the past/future stupid moves and see when Aura Sphere outprioritizes them. We've already found out some of them ex. MK's Whorenado is beat by a 10% Aura Sphere you can check this Auratastic Thread for some more figures.

 

[Reapereater]

b tilt is force palm I was to lazy. I can't use double team as I'll get hit and send flying. The game was very laggy and I was the only lucario that wasn't a pikachu, so I was juggled everywhere. Everyone focused on me . The thunder around pikachu makes me unable to go near for quite awhile. To Alus, I didn't know where to post the Q&A section makes me feel like I'm necroing it. Also this thread is called How to deal stupid moves , so I thought it was for all. I can't really do anything. Even if I just stand there pikachu will like volt tackle me and do thunder again.

 

[iRJi]

b tilt is force palm I was to lazy. I can't use double team as I'll get hit and send flying. The game was very laggy and I was the only lucario that wasn't a pikachu, so I was juggled everywhere. Everyone focused on me . The thunder around pikachu makes me unable to go near for quite awhile. To Alus, I didn't know where to post the Q&A section makes me feel like I'm necroing it. Also this thread is called How to deal stupid moves , so I thought it was for all. I can't really do anything. Even if I just stand there pikachu will like volt tackle me and do thunder again.

This literally lost me in a sensible way. Like, when I read it I get confused lol. To deal with thunder, just dodge it by moving out of the way. Lucario doesn't have a reflector, and therefore really can't do anything about it much if you are in the air lol. On the floor however, just AS him when he throws it. Back to marths fair now =]

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

b tilt is force palm I was to lazy. I can't use double team as I'll get hit and send flying. The game was very laggy and I was the only lucario that wasn't a pikachu, so I was juggled everywhere. Everyone focused on me . The thunder around pikachu makes me unable to go near for quite awhile. To Alus, I didn't know where to post the Q&A section makes me feel like I'm necroing it. Also this thread is called How to deal stupid moves , so I thought it was for all. I can't really do anything. Even if I just stand there pikachu will like volt tackle me and do thunder again.

So... it sounds like you're fighting in a free for all or on teams.

Volt Tackle, so you're playing with Final Smashes... you will wanna stay somewhat close to the ground when fighting Pika. Don't Force Palm Thunder, even if you do manage the super armor frames you're still gonna take damage and there are safer options available like Fsmash or charging up an Aura Sphere. You do not want to be close to Pika when trying to hit him out of Thunder.

I'm still unclear what you're saying, bro.

Anyways, Marth's FAir.

Does anyone know if the bottom of Marth's FAir has less priority than the rest of it? When I was testing Aura Sphere priority against it and weaker than 20% Spheres outprioritized like at the bottom of Marth's FAir or perhaps I wasn't seeing things right. If it does have less priority than the rest of his FAir then uh... that'll be good for this match-up.

Also, Lucario's back air... When do you guys think is the best times to use Luc's BAir against Marth's FAir? I have been pondering lately how well it'd work against Marth offstage, where you could follow up with a Reversed or Wavebounced Aura Sphere. I need to look into BAir's late hit offstage because that could be somewhat of a useful tool to gimp.

Do you guys find it better to deal with Marth's FAir when facing Marth or when your back is to him (In before B reversals)?