The how to handle stupid moves thread! (REVIVAL! snake ftilt.)!)

[Aurasmash14]

Welcome to the stupid move discussion thread! we'll be discussing The moves that annoy Lucario the most. I will be updating each time we're finished with a move.

MK Tornado
FINISHED!

How to Handle it.
A. On the ground.
1. If you are packing an aura sphere, use it. A fully charged one will pierce the hurtbox, while a half charged one will break through at high percentages.
2. You may attempt to Fsmash but it really is quite a large risk.
3. It has some starting lag before the high priority appears. anything, even a simple BAS may interrupt him.
B. In the air.
1. The tornado can actually be footstooled.
2. A dair may get through the hitbox and reach MK. needs spacing though.
3. The tail of Lucario's Uair can hit MK (but it is weak.)
4. If invincible, (like respawning) fair and Nair can hit MK out of the nado.

IF THERE IS ANYTHING TO BE ADDED OR CORRECTED PLEASE SAY SO!!!!!



MK Shuttle loop.

FINISHED

Falco's lasers

DISCUSS!
Ok guys i haz a number of rules now.

1) Please only put stuff tried and tested. if you have a theory go test it. if it works post it here.
2) Since i'm a lucario i know how irresistible spamming can be. But take it too far and ill have to report you.
3) NO TROLLING OR FLAMING! if you disagree about a post say it in a civil manner. For the love of god lets be civil here.
4) Please dont leave one liner comments unless theyre useful.
5)please post! we need all the help we can get.
6) in case i'm gone for awhile, continue discussing them PM me the results. i will update the thread as soon as possible.
7) we will first be discussing the special moves like Lazahs and nades. after that **** is done we can put it up to vote.
8.) i will be updating this thread every time a move is finished.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Ah yes. Good thread.

The Tornado is a troublesome move because of it's high priority, ability to shield poke, and it's upward knockback puts Lucario in a bad position. It's a good way for Metaknight to rack up free damage, and it can be difficult to punish.

Well the first things about the Tornado is that if you try to roll away or spot dodge after he is upon you, you get sucked in. If you're being tornado'd, your reflexes may make you want to do something about it, however don't spot dodge or roll. Hold your shield. I've often heard recommendations to tilt your shield upward, because it lowers the risk of being shield poked.

The only things we have that can reliably break a Tornado head-on are Fsmash and Fully-to-Mostly Charged Aura Sphere, the more useful of the two being Aura Sphere. Don't try for the Fsmash unless the MK is decently far away, because you'll just get hit before the startup lag is over.

Above the Tornado, Dair works just fine. I've also heard that you can SDI up when hit by a Tornado and get a hit on MK with the tail of Lucario's Uair.

If you're not within his Dsmash kill %, you might want to try hanging out near the edge of the stage if the MK is spamming the Tornado. They won't want to go there with the Tornado because they could end up SDing.

Also, the Tornado does have a bit of startup lag. If you're keeping pressure on MK with BAS spam (as is a good idea in this matchup), you can catch him with one before he gets all the way into the tornado. And because many MKs will be tapping B repeatedly, he will probably end up trying another tornado right after he was hit out of the first, meaning you can likely catch him AGAIN with another BAS, frustrating the MK and getting some 10-15% on him.

Hopefully this is all correct. I don't fight a lot of MKs.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Rats i should have reserved first post..... but ah whatever. thanks for your input. If this takes off i will be putting a format and a little more development guidelines.

EDIT- whlie most of it is correct, Im not very sure about hanging out on the ledge or spamming BAS. i dunno, ill wait for more pplz to come.

 

[mountain_tiger]

The most reliable way is Dair. I think that some of his other aerials work, but I'm not sure.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Rats i should have reserved first post..... but ah whatever. thanks for your input. If this takes off i will be putting a format and a little more development guidelines.
Lol. My bad.
EDIT- whlie most of it is correct, Im not very sure about hanging out on the ledge or spamming BAS. i dunno, ill wait for more pplz to come.

Not on the ledge, near the ledge. And that's situational too. MK of course ***** off stage, so you have to be smart about it and not stick around the edge and 90% asking for an early Dsmash kill, etc. It DOES discourage the use of the Tornado, though. BAS only works if the Tornado's hitbox isn't up yet, but it's a good way to annoy a Tornado spamming MK.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Lol in a few hours i hope to get sum more posts. but in the meantime I <3 u

 

[Alus]

+1 posts in thread...

<3 Dair and AS

Also I thought about making this thread when I finally got home...
XD

mucho homo.

 

[F1ZZ]

The most reliable way is Dair. I think that some of his other aerials work, but I'm not sure.

Woudn't AS just be a better overall choice. For dair you have to approach in the air whereas with AS you can do it anytime anywhere.

AS > Tornado

 

[Luxor]

Woudn't AS just be a better overall choice. For dair you have to approach in the air whereas with AS you can do it anytime anywhere.

AS > Tornado

An AS with some charge can break through MT iirc; however, I agree that dair is a simple, efficient, and reliable way to break it if you lack an AS. MT is beast any way try to deal with it though.

 

[F1ZZ]

^ It really doesn't take long to charge an AS and if you are rushed you can just sheild till the tornado is done. Yes dair would be a good choice but the AS puts distance between you and Metaknight unlike dair. I agree though that the Tornado is beast any way you deal with it.

 

[phi1ny3]

iirc, if you hit MK's hurtbox just right you can kill tornado with nair as well (at least from what I've seen).
Kind of tough though.

 

[F1ZZ]

iirc, if you hit MK's hurtbox just right you can kill tornado with nair as well (at least from what I've seen).
Kind of tough though.

I have actually have done that once and when I did it I was so shocked. The only down side is that I have only done it once.

 

[D. Disciple]

iirc, if you hit MK's hurtbox just right you can kill tornado with nair as well (at least from what I've seen).
Kind of tough though.

It's the same with fair too.

Dairing is a best bet as well. If you're on the ground and they tornado incorrectly, you can fsmash them, aura sphere.

My favorite thing is to Smash DI then foot stool away from MK's tornado.

Overall:
Dair - Best thing to do
AS - 2nd Best thing
Fsmash - Risky but still rewarding


Can we pivot grab him out of it too?

 

[Luxor]

On a side note, are we allowed to suggest new moves/give answers for unlisted moves?
Just throwing out that apparently DTing Pika's Thunder is effective, and I would suggest Marth's Fair for future discussion.

 

[manhunter098]

How do you space the d-air so it hits him out of the tornado, I always try to do it and I can never seem to get him, I tend to try to stick around just above the tornado with smash di- and then drop down on the lag with a d-air, but I rarely am able to knock a MK out of tornado with d-air.

 

[D. Disciple]

On a side note, are we allowed to suggest new moves/give answers for unlisted moves?
Just throwing out that apparently DTing Pika's Thunder is effective, and I would suggest Marth's Fair for future discussion.

That's really risky to do. Cause if it hits Pika, he resets and can do whatever he wants pretty much, and he has time to usmash us outta DT.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I've also heard that you can SDI up when hit by a Tornado and get a hit on MK with the tail of Lucario's Uair.

This actually works and is worth mentioning.

 

[phi1ny3]

Can we pivot grab him out of it too?

We ought to look into that, considering that ksizzle said uthrow mindgames are good vs. MK and every 10% you can get on the little bugger plus any slight disadvantageous situation you can put in = better.

 

[Rayku]

Whenever I D-air Metaknight's tornado, it just clanks (kinda like how Dedede's hammer clanks with every hit of it without doing anything) and I get hit anyway. The only time I've ever hit a Metaknight out of Tornado with D-air is when he's trying to start it up.

When you just spawn a new life and you're invincible, I know that Fair completely beats Tornado. Everything else has already been said.

 

[Aurasmash14]

come on guys we knew that already!(but it was a good refresher.) lets step it up and start discussing on how to really handle it. AS still needs to be charged to kill tornado and a full second is a lot of time when fighting MK. also the thread isn't really a thread on how to outprioritize other moves you know. we need info on how to deal with it in certain situations like for example, in the air.

Yayz pplz!! i promise to make the thread better if i get more posts. btw since this was just a small experiment, when this is done, what move would you guys like to do? pick between Falco's pewpew or DeDeDe's grab.

 

[D. Disciple]

KK I'll put it in a list for you.

If you're grounded while he does tornado close to ground level:

Shield then angle the shield, and if he lands beside you, grab him or utilt him.

Aura Sphere - If you have one that is charged from halfway to full. (We should have a percent, when a halfway aura sphere will knock him out, cause no way will a halfway charged aura sphere at 0% will knock him out)

Fsmash him - time it and judge his location this will work out.

If he tornado's under you:
Dair him

Footstool the tornado - it's not too difficult to do, I did it on my first time when I found out you could.

Platform camp.


Possible options:
Fair the weak spot, DI upwards then hit with the tail of uair, pivot grab (needs to be tested).

Would be sweet if we can force palm him out of tornado. I'm having people over, so I'll test out the pivot grab and see if we can force palm him out of it too.

I say we discuss, what to do against his shuttle loop. Since a lot of Lucario's moves can clash with it, leaving both of them unharmed.

 

[phi1ny3]

Don't forget Nair, although it also needs testing.

 

[D. Disciple]

I will test that out as well. But I say we commence on shuttle loop.

 

[C.J.]

Since I've seen ICs pivot grab MK out of tornado, I'm pretty sure Lucario can too

 

[D. Disciple]

So have I, that's what you get tyrant for being too hasty.

 

[Luxor]

Whenever I D-air Metaknight's tornado, it just clanks (kinda like how Dedede's hammer clanks with every hit of it without doing anything) and I get hit anyway. The only time I've ever hit a Metaknight out of Tornado with D-air is when he's trying to start it up.

Yeah, the problem is that MK's MT actually gains priority as it runs, but I haven't had much trouble knocking MK out of it. Just get in close but not too close to his head in the middle and Dair away.

Shuttle Loop?

 

[Aurasmash14]

MK's only power move aside from dsmash.

Thanks D. i appreciate the posts. we'll do shuttle loop next, its probably MK's most used kill move if he cant gimp.

 

[D. Disciple]

Shuttle Loop is his up b Luxor.

 

[Luxor]

Shuttle Loop is his up b Luxor.

lol, I meant it as in "[shall we discuss MK's] Shuttle Loop?" I'm not THAT new.

 

[Aurasmash14]

You never know, i have seen some tourney folks go " whats a drill rush?"

lol.

 

[Aurasmash14]

OK I will be updating this soon to go to shuttle loop. all i need is the data on the tornado and we can continue.

 

[RT]

Assuming you are only going to talk about aerial Shuttle Loop, since grounded has those oh-so-fun invincibility frames...dair can stop it, assuming you are somewhere above Meta Knight. Otherwise, I'm fairly certain you both take a hit, but he isn't sent anywhere because the first hitbox of dair has virtually no knockback. You have two chances with dair's hitboxes so make sure you can predict it right. If only it was as good as Peach's dair...

If you're beside Meta, fair can challenge it, but I believe both players get hit. I'm pretty sure nair is in the same boat, but I could be wrong. You could AS, but that would be a really bad choice if Meta is right next to you. I think bair could stop it, but good luck predicting with it. Uair...I doubt works because your body is the hitbox, unless you somehow end up under the Meta. Force Palm flame...yeah, you'll probably miss and get punished.

Overall, dair is probably the best choice. Or...you could just airdodge, lol.

 

[D. Disciple]

If you're under him you can usmash, utilt, uair too.

Any part of Lucario that has some kind of range a decent amount of aura, will clash with shuttle loop's glide attack. To prevent an aerial shuttle loop, you can dair him if you're above him like RT just said.

 

[RT]

In terms of clanking with glide attack, I know dair and bair can. I assume uair can at clank, but you would want to hit him with the top part. AS can clank and eventually should completely override it after a certain percents.

 

[Aurasmash14]

wait i needz the nado data first before we can...... ahh what the hell.... shuttle loop. DISCUSS!

 

[Timbers]

glide attack clanks with everything lol, don't think anything outprioritizes it either.

This is why multihit moves **** it lol

 

[Aurasmash14]

That technically leaves only ftilt and dair. Most probably dair.

 

[Timbers]

no that technically leaves not lucario.

The best you can do is challenge it with fair>nair. Fair negates glide attack, nair gets afterlag.

 

[manhunter098]

Well if MK is grounded there isnt much you can do about it other than dodge it if you are in the air or shield it if you are on the ground. I find that if you can elicit a a grounded shuttle loop from MK when you run up to him, you can perfect shield it and attempt to punish with n-air or u-air, which MK can only stop by clanking with your attack using his glide attack. But its fast, so you need to be able to read when he is going to shuttle loop to make this strategy more effective.


I find that in the air d-air works very well to stop shuttle loop, you just have to make sure you can stay spaced correctly in order to do so.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah if you do ever get a PS on a shuttle loop, you have plenty of time for getting underneath to punish, otherwise, just continue to defend until he lands and does something after the glide attack and then punish.