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The Gun is Civilization

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saviorslegacy

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Link to original post: [drupal=3918]The Gun is Civilization[/drupal]



"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.
If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job.
That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.
This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.
The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.
It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone.
The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.
It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)






When I turn 21 I plan on doing 2 things. #1, buy a good drink and 2, sign up for concealed carry classes.
Does anyone here carry a fire arm? If you do, what is it?
 

Nidtendofreak

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I would, but I'm going to be moving back to Canada this summer.

I think that explains my reason why I can't in of itself. >_> Stupid laws are stupid.
 

Browny

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Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
Meh. not that simple. How about blackmail? An 80 year old can blackmail a pro boxer whether either of them have a gun.

The line is blurred you cant simply call every action either reason or force. How about guilt trips that are unwarranted? The reason behind them may be extremely weak and every logical truth points to what a person is saying my be a lie, but thats a different kind of force. They arent reasoning with people by arguments the same way people argue about what restaurant to eat at lol.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone.
The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.
It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
This is @ you SL since you obviously agree with his reasoning.

Tell that to the thousands of families every year whos loved ones are needlessly killed by guns. Go preach this fairytale to a bunch of kids who lose their mum/dad over trivial things which MOST DEFINITELY would not have been fatal if people werent carrying guns.

Be thankful every day that your family were one of the fortunate ones who didnt end up on the wrong side of this ideology.

---

This major's story is an insult to intelligence. Assuming we all live in a perfect society where people arent ****ing ********. The funny and deathly sad part is, his idea of people being safe from thugs by carrying guns makes the fatal assumption that the thugs wont carry guns. So what is his ideal world, where everyone carries guns? "Congratulations son/daughter, you are now 21! You are now able to feel fearless when walking the street because no one will be able to force you around. Oh, that is unless of course they pull the trigger first, in which case you die a horrible death"
 

Zook

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This major's story is an insult to intelligence. Assuming we all live in a perfect society where people arent ****ing ********. The funny and deathly sad part is, his idea of people being safe from thugs by carrying guns makes the fatal assumption that the thugs wont carry guns.
I think the point is that if there were no guns, the thugs would be at an advantage.

Without the gun, your average person trying to defend himself from someone bigger than himself is at an enormous disadvantage. The defender's life is at a far greater risk than that of the aggressor.

With the gun, these two people are more or less on the same level. Both parties are at equal risk.

Basically he's saying that the gun removes physical superiority out of the equation when it comes to conflict.

Also, people killed each other before guns existed. A weapon is a weapon, and anyone can kill anyone, weather they're using a gun or a farming tool. I'm not sure what you're talking about in that "kids who lose their mum/dad over trivial things" part is about, so could you give examples?
 

saviorslegacy

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Meh. not that simple. How about blackmail? An 80 year old can blackmail a pro boxer whether either of them have a gun.
I would call that a form of force. He is forcing him to do something with the threat of releasing information.

The line is blurred you cant simply call every action either reason or force. How about guilt trips that are unwarranted? The reason behind them may be extremely weak and every logical truth points to what a person is saying my be a lie, but thats a different kind of force. They arent reasoning with people by arguments the same way people argue about what restaurant to eat at lol.
A guilt trip would be a form of reason. The whole idea is for the person to pity and reason with your wishes out of sympathy?



This is @ you SL since you obviously agree with his reasoning.

Tell that to the thousands of families every year whos loved ones are needlessly killed by guns. Go preach this fairytale to a bunch of kids who lose their mum/dad over trivial things which MOST DEFINITELY would not have been fatal if people werent carrying guns.
I had a friend shot and killed by a bow.
Other forms of weapons are hands. You can easily be choked to death. I also know of a guy that had a rope tied to his leg and then they went for a little ride through a forest. He died some time during the little adventure.
If someone wants you dead you are either going to kill them or be killed. Guns or no guns it's happening. Pray that the police will show in time to prevent anything but I doubt it since they usually can't be there in under a minute and you are required to get to a phone for them to know that you are in trouble.
As far a trivial things..... people need to use theirs heads. If you dress fancy and go walking through East St. Louis plan on getting robbed. If you refuse plan on getting shot. This is just one stretched example but you get my point. Stay away from idiots is a big one.
Same things as it's a bad idea to go drive somewhere at midnight on Saturday. You are just asking for trouble.

Also, we live in a world that has guns. If the bad guy has one you better have one to.
Also, again with the smart part I rarely open carry. I carry my revolver when I go fishing, hiking, camping or walking in the flood plains. It is not smart for me to carry it into Wal-Mart.


Be thankful every day that your family were one of the fortunate ones who didnt end up on the wrong side of this ideology.
The wrong side of the ideology is the bad guy side. I am thankful for it and if you think that my family has never faced being shot at you have another thing coming. I am the one he hasn't experienced being shot at. I have been held at knife point but I gave the guy my money... it was only $10. He might have really needed it. There was no reason for me to try and fight. I could have been killed, he could have been killed or one of us could have ended up scared really bad.

---

This major's story is an insult to intelligence. Assuming we all live in a perfect society where people arent ****ing ********. The funny and deathly sad part is, his idea of people being safe from thugs by carrying guns makes the fatal assumption that the thugs wont carry guns. So what is his ideal world, where everyone carries gun?
*red

You have made a gross interpretation that he thinks we are safe if we have guns. He thinks that they playing field is made even by guns.
And yes, the bad guys do some times carry guns. If the situation demands it you will kill them first. One of my friends mother was in the Corps. for 20 years. She is a cancer survivor and good shot. She was in a gas station several years back when a man walked in, pulled out a pistol and told the clerk to give him the money. The cash register didn't have enough to suit him and my friend's mom was almost certain that he was going to shoot her. She pulled out her concealed carry, worked the slide and in her most demanding voice told him to get down or she will shoot. Both players were armed in that situation and no one was hurt.
Here's the thing though, if a guy has the intention of killing you and he pulls a gun on you are you going to sprinkle pixie dust on him and hope he flies away? Oh, don't tell me you are going to pick up a chair and go Jackie Chan on his ***. My favorite is that people think they can run. Some times you can run away. Have fun out running a bullet though.
You best bet would probably be to duck for cover, pull your weapon and shoot the psycho trying to kill you.
This situation DOES happen. Remember Virginia Tech? None of those students had the ability to kill that psycho.


I rest my case.
 

Browny

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I think the point is that if there were no guns, the thugs would be at an advantage.

Without the gun, your average person trying to defend himself from someone bigger than himself is at an enormous disadvantage. The defender's life is at a far greater risk than that of the aggressor.

With the gun, these two people are more or less on the same level. Both parties are at equal risk.

Basically he's saying that the gun removes physical superiority out of the equation when it comes to conflict.

Also, people killed each other before guns existed. A weapon is a weapon, and anyone can kill anyone, weather they're using a gun or a farming tool. I'm not sure what you're talking about in that "kids who lose their mum/dad over trivial things" part is about, so could you give examples?
Just google search gun murder usa mother/father, takes about 10 seconds to find examples over the last week. Would these deaths have happened if it wasnt a gun, but a knife/brick etc used instead? Maybe you should ask the people whose loves ones die as a result of gun deaths, they will be able to give you a much better insight.

I know what his story is getting at with his fairy-tale world where no one commits crimes because everyone is scared of each other but thats just all it is; a fairy tale. ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. If people were intelligent enough to realise that if we all had guns, we wouldnt commit violent crimes, they would also be intelligent enough to realise RIGHT NOW why they shouldnt be done. Unfortunately they dont, and people are ********.

Honestly his theory is just as bad as communism; it only works if every single person lives an ideal life and everyone does things which need to be done for the theory to ever work. IMO The chances of this theory ever working properly in real life are the same as no one comitting violent crimes at all. ie; 0.

---

Come on SL man its a pretty obvious conclusion by him suggesting the 'playing field' is even, this would make us safer. Since force is removed, what is left to be able to physically harm us?
 

Zook

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Just google search gun murder usa mother/father, takes about 10 seconds to find examples over the last week. Would these deaths have happened if it wasnt a gun, but a knife/brick etc used instead?

Probably. When people want to kill, they kill. It's not like the gun is a magic weapon that kills anything it grazes, there are plenty of people who have survived bullet wounds.

Maybe you should ask the people whose loves ones die as a result of gun deaths, they will be able to give you a much better insight.

Bad idea, they'd be prejudice against guns already.

I know what his story is getting at with his fairy-tale world where no one commits crimes because everyone is scared of each other but thats just all it is; a fairy tale. ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. If people were intelligent enough to realise that if we all had guns, we wouldnt commit violent crimes, they would also be intelligent enough to realise RIGHT NOW why they shouldnt be done. Unfortunately they dont, and people are ********. Honestly his theory is just as bad as communism; it only works if every single person lives an ideal life and everyone does things which need to be done for the theory to ever work.

You do realize that you're getting at an even LESS realistic fairy tale world, right?

Responses in bold.
 

saviorslegacy

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Just google search gun murder usa mother/father, takes about 10 seconds to find examples over the last week. Would these deaths have happened if it wasnt a gun, but a knife/brick etc used instead? Maybe you should ask the people whose loves ones die as a result of gun deaths, they will be able to give you a much better insight.
If I had to kill and I had a knife the person that I had to kill would be dead or I would be dead, same as a brick. Do you think that a gun is a special weapon? It is only a newer better weapon.

I know what his story is getting at with his fairy-tale world where no one commits crimes because everyone is scared of each other but thats just all it is; a fairy tale. ITS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. If people were intelligent enough to realise that if we all had guns, we wouldnt commit violent crimes, they would also be intelligent enough to realise RIGHT NOW why they shouldnt be done. Unfortunately they dont, and people are ********.
So you use logic to determine if force is needed or not. A gun does not solve every situation, just some. Most importantly, it solves the most dangerous situations.

Honestly his theory is just as bad as communism; it only works if every single person lives an ideal life and everyone does things which need to be done for the theory to ever work. IMO The chances of this theory ever working properly in real life are the same as no one comitting violent crimes at all. ie; 0.
His theory is more or less an example. It's supposed to open peoples eyes and give advice.

---

Come on SL man its a pretty obvious conclusion by him suggesting the 'playing field' is even, this would make us safer. Since force is removed, what is left to be able to physically harm us?
*red

He said even. In 1960 USA and USSR was on an even playing field with their nuclear weapons. I guess this made us safer right?
Actually force isn't removed when you have a gun. On the contrary a gun is the best way to use force.
 

Browny

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Eh, I think this whole situation would be MUCH better if everyone had tasers instead.

Possibly even better than the way the world currently is... >_>
 
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I don't see how legalizing guns is any better than illegalizing them.

Either way humans will continue to deal with each other through force, guns just increase the likelihood of these dealings to be fatal.
 

Browny

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Lol I just realised, that major is probably the sort of person who buys a tank of a 4WD for his wife to use as Mum's taxi. Protecting your kids is #1 priority. Pity about the other kids who stand no chance of survival in a crash with one. Solution: Everyone drives around in humvees with bullbars around the suburbs, all packing pistols to stop road rage violent incidents!

That's not much of a stretch from what this guy is suggesting lol.
 
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Why would you want to buy a gun over a taser/pepperspray/other non-lethal option ?
 

mountain_tiger

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See, being in a country where there are considerably restrictions on gun ownership, it's always disturbing to hear about countries, such as the USA, where owning one is considered the norm. The only person I know who owns a gun is my grandfather, who used to use it for hunting.

But ultimately it works here because there have almost always been strict laws regarding firearms. In America they're so deeply entrenched in society that removing them would be impossible...
 

_Keno_

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Personal fire arms are the ****tiest way to deal with the violence problem. It is truly difficult for me to fathom how guns for everyone would make the world a better place.

Is the cause of this article the second amendment or something? Why do people go so far in believing that the right to bear arms is a "natural" right. It is an old uncivilized way of thinking, and it needs to be abolished.


Drive-bys, gang violence, school massacres, arbitrary fights that end in death, etc all occur because of this foolishness. If nobody had guns, sure, there would still be violence, but it would be much more difficult to kill anonymously, you would have to get up close and personal. This will always leave evidence.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.
So, if a mugger walks up to you, pointing a gun at you and says "give me all your money." What are you going to do? Draw your own firearm? He already has his pointing at you. He will shoot you dead if you even dare to touch it.

If both are armed, the field is level.
Not even remotely true. The attacker will always have the advantage, for he already has the weapon drawn!

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society.
LOL. Am I supposed to imagine gangs of young people with bats/knives running around beating people up when I read this? Does the abolishment of guns mean the removal of police in his worldview or something?

We are asking that nobody rule, that the government only have the power.
 

saviorslegacy

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I don't see how legalizing guns is any better than illegalizing them.

Either way humans will continue to deal with each other through force, guns just increase the likelihood of these dealings to be fatal.
Then you aren't using your head.
Is cocaine illegal? A: yes
If guns are banned will criminals get them illegally? A: yes.... they already get machine guns illegally.


Why would you want to buy a gun over a taser/pepperspray/other non-lethal option ?
Pepper spray has one very bad weakness. If the aggressor is at a distance of about 20' he can simple turn and cover his face. Why do you think cops carry tasers over pepper spray. IMO pepper sprays best use is as an anti **** weapon. When the aggressor does not plan on killing you right then and there and has to get really close. Oh, and a pair of combat goggles makes pepper spray useless. If the guy knows his target and suspects pepper spray he can make that weapon useless with one head item.

As for the taser..... they are just now getting useful. Here's the problem though, they are just as good as this: http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x264/M_444/Traditions/TrapperPistol.jpg
If you miss you are screwed, if there is more than one aggressor you are screwed. Oh, and don't even mention those short tasers that you have to touch people with. #1 those things are very short and thus touching someone with it is as hard as putting your palm on them. #2 those things don't go through clothing. So you basically have to run up, touch skin and pray you don't get killed in the process. Those things are horrible weapons. They are only useful when the bad guy has no idea how to fight. If you opponent is skilled you are dead, period.

Let me ask you all a question. What would you have done in this situation? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d32bBtkMDk&NR=1&feature=fvwp
 

saviorslegacy

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Personal fire arms are the ****tiest way to deal with the violence problem. It is truly difficult for me to fathom how guns for everyone would make the world a better place.
The dude isn't really talking about making the world a better place he is talking about making yourself safer.

Is the cause of this article the second amendment or something? Why do people go so far in believing that the right to bear arms is a "natural" right. It is an old uncivilized way of thinking, and it needs to be abolished.
Who told you it was an old uncivilized way of thinking?
If everyone would be willing to never use a weapon for violence again and that you could only use your weapons for the fun of shooting and hunting then I would buy a baton and receive training for it.
To bad that is never going to happen.



Drive-bys, gang violence, school massacres, arbitrary fights that end in death, etc all occur because of this foolishness. If nobody had guns, sure, there would still be violence, but it would be much more difficult to kill anonymously, you would have to get up close and personal. This will always leave evidence.
You will have to get up close and personal huh. I guess that is fair for everyone isn't it?
Also, I already made the point that Virginia Tech could have been ended if a student had a gun. Oh, and if guns are banned do you seriously think that the bad guys who want them can't get them?




So, if a mugger walks up to you, pointing a gun at you and says "give me all your money." What are you going to do? Draw your own firearm? He already has his pointing at you. He will shoot you dead if you even dare to touch it.
Depends on the situation. I will turn around and attempt to read his body language. From there I would make a choice depending on how threatened I felt. I could #1 look over his shoulder like I am looking at someone and attempt a disarm. If he is far away then I will say something low so that he has to get closer to hear me. If he is probably going to kill me I will try to get as close as possible, look over his shoulder as if I am looking at someone, disarm him and go from there.
Then again if the situation is not grim at all I will probably give him my money. There is no reason to risk my life or his life over some stupid money.




Not even remotely true. The attacker will always have the advantage, for he already has the weapon drawn!
Who said you will always be defending yourself? Remember the story about my friends mom? She wasn't defending herself in that situation, she was defending another.



LOL. Am I supposed to imagine gangs of young people with bats/knives running around beating people up when I read this? Does the abolishment of guns mean the removal of police in his worldview or something?
I dunno not my article.

We are asking that nobody rule, that the government only have the power.
*red

Dude, it is a bad idea to have the Government with all of the power. Citizens should always have the right to defend themselves. Besides, if guns are bad then the good guys have no business having them.
 

Patinator

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The gun... it is a mechanical masterpiece. This is almost undeniable. Think of this- with certain types of firearms... with just the slight pull of a trigger, it allows you to hit a target at 6000 feet, 2000 yards... not with something explosive, but with a direct, solid hit. Yet the object hitting this target, be it man, metal, or paper- is no bigger around than my little finger! This is truly amazing, is it not? For tests of marksmanship and general skill in that area, the firearm is man's greatest achievement.

The gun is a machine that carries with it great moral responsibility. How you use it is up to you. A firearm, by itself, is neither inherently good or evil; it, like almost everything, all depends on the person who holds it. In the right hands, it is harmless and, if anything, an excellent way to keep thugs, ever so present in the modern day, from accomplishing their goal of harming somebody. It is- as Savior said- an equalizer. Human maliciousness does not begin and end with guns; if a man sets out to cause harm, he will use whatever it takes, be it a knife, a chair, or a wooden club.

To remove firearms from the world is to remove the most effective choice of self-defense; it does not remove a troublemaker's only option to cause harm, because it's not the only option in the least. To remove firearms from the world is to remove the best option of self-defense. And... you cannot actually remove firearms from the world. They shall always exist, no matter how crudely. "Banning" them will certainly not reduce a criminal's arsenal to knives and sticks. No, this can't be true, pure and simple.

What harm does a firearm cause in the hand of an intelligent, law-abiding citizen? None. It is a form of recreation, a confidence-booster, and probably the best method of self-defense possible.

There is no question that a gun in the hand of a criminal can be harmful; however, it is not the fault of the gun, but the fault of the person commiting the crime, whatever it may be.

It is true that carrying a gun is not an excellent deterrent. After all, if it's concealed, no one knows unless you tell or show them. Potentially, in a world where everybody or mostly everybody carries a gun for defense- sadly, this is not today's world- it could reduce the occurrence of crime. However, I'm not going to say that, because... nobody knows. Even if everybody carried a gun in the open, there would still be the inane morons who attack innocent people despite that.

And I personally- excuse my "cold-heartedness"- believe that the world is better off without criminals... as such, every time I read about a thief or a would-be rapist being shot and injured or killed, I smile and celebrate on the inside. Truly, I do.

Think about something. Imagine someone breaking into your home with the intent of harming you, be it by stealing or physically harming you, and/or your family. What is the best option to stop this crazed criminal? Something that might stop him like a taser or some rubber bullet... or something that will almost certainly bring him to the ground, like a real bullet? What achieves the goal of stopping this man the fastest and easiest? It would, of course, be the use of lethal force. He's already broken into your house- he doesn't need any more "changes".

Perhaps there's another question to be asked. In a break-in situation, what's more important to you? Think about this. What would be more important to you if somebody breaks into your house, armed with a weapon, be it a gun, knife, or his fists... protecting your family by reducing or eliminating the thread, or keeping this foolish criminal alive and relatively unharmed? Ask yourself that. I would truly hope that keeping yourself or your family unharmed is a thousand, thousand times more important than the welfare of this son of a ***** who crashes into your house, this absolute lowlife scum of society?

In addition... there are some crazed criminals that won't stop until they die in the first place, whether they're, in their already apparent stupidity, amped up on something, or what have you... a taser won't stop them, a rubber bullet won't stop them. A man's will to accomplish something can potentially overpower anything but immobilization, and death or serious harm is the easiest way to accomplish this.

I fully suppose this thread, Savior. I won't be posting any further as far as the debate... it's not my strong suit at all.

Now, to answer your question at the end of your original post! I'm not old enough to carry a gun, for whatever reason. Am I responsible enough? Of course. However... my only option for concealed carry would be my father's Ruger Mk II, a .22 automatic pistol. I would much prefer to have something in .40 S&W or greater, but... guns are a tad expensive for this relatively poor country family. When I turn 18 or 21, whichever age it is in Tennessee... I'm going to apply for both a concealed carry and open carry permit as soon as I can.

Would you like a short version of this post? Well, here: If you ban guns from civilians, you remove the equalizer between good people and criminals. Banning guns from civilian ownership does nothing to their use by criminals. Nothing. And no... "non-lethal" options are not replacements for firearms, and they never will be. Nothing is as effective a man-stopper as death or serious injury. On this alone, firearms should not be banned, and if anything, should be encouraged among good, law-abiding citizens.
 

Life

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the tl;dr is that bad people will always find a way to get some kind of weapon, however people won't do bad stuff if it means them potentially getting shot. (Am I going to rob the house with a "Guns Are Evil" sign out front or the one with a shooting range? And what if all the houses have that shooting range?) Everything else, depending on how cynical you are, is taken care of either by lack of stupidity or Darwin. Children can very easily be convinced that guns are NOT a toy.
 

john!

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Is the cause of this article the second amendment or something? Why do people go so far in believing that the right to bear arms is a "natural" right. It is an old uncivilized way of thinking, and it needs to be abolished.

...

We are asking that nobody rule, that the government only have the power.
Really? Really?

So when somebody invents a better weapon than the gun, they shouldn't have the right to own it, and the government should have exclusive use of it?
 

saviorslegacy

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Now, to answer your question at the end of your original post! I'm not old enough to carry a gun, for whatever reason. Am I responsible enough? Of course. However... my only option for concealed carry would be my father's Ruger Mk II, a .22 automatic pistol. I would much prefer to have something in .40 S&W or greater, but... guns are a tad expensive for this relatively poor country family. When I turn 18 or 21, whichever age it is in Tennessee... I'm going to apply for both a concealed carry and open carry permit as soon as I can.
IMO a .22 is a horrible choice for a self defense round. People have been shot in the head and the bullet got stuck in their skull. .22's can kill, but they're not meant to kill a human (not unless they're a magnum or set up like a M16 round).
IMO, the .38 special is the bottom of the barrel, you do not want to go lower than that. If I had my way I would like to carry .45 ACP hollow points..... in a 1911R1.

You seem like a smart person but don't carry open everywhere. Mine is restricted for when I am by myself for long periods of time. TBH though, I'm more worried about feral dogs than humans.


Let me be straight up with ya. A black powder revolver is very fun and very cheap. If you play your cards right you can have the weapon, holster, powder measure, caps, balls and powder for maybe 250$. You can't beat that. You can buy a decent revolver for maybe 130$ and work your way from there and they are legal for 18 year olds.
 

_Keno_

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Really? Really?

So when somebody invents a better weapon than the gun, they shouldn't have the right to own it, and the government should have exclusive use of it?
Oh, I'm sorry, you are right.

All people should have the power to kill anybody, and with great anonymity. :glare:

And yes, I fully support police having a great deal more power than citizens.

And Savior please don't respond like that again, I cannot quote you at all, and so I have to do various copy/pastes in microsoft word just to respond to you. I will be responding soonish.
 

saviorslegacy

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Oh, I'm sorry, you are right.

All people should have the power to kill anybody, and with great anonymity. :glare:

And yes, I fully support police having a great deal more power than citizens.

And Savior please don't respond like that again, I cannot quote you at all, and so I have to do various copy/pastes in microsoft word just to respond to you. I will be responding soonish.
kk lol :chuckle:
IMO a car is just as easy to kill someone.

Ever seen Rambo? Yeah, that kind of stuff does happen. Last year some police officers took a drunk girl into custody, strip searched her and then ***** her. Another police officer filmed them, broke it up and took them to court. This happened about 30 minutes away. Last month some police officers raided a house within walking distance from me, shot all of the dogs including a 3 month lab who was cowering under a table and beat up the people inside.
It hasn't been proven but the guy who got beat up got a drug dealer in trouble and we all think that those officers were paid to make sure he got hurt.

I do not trust the law, only God.
If you blindly trust them then you stupid.... beyond stupid you are just plain dumb.
 

_Keno_

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IMO a car is just as easy to kill someone.

Ever seen Rambo? Yeah, that kind of stuff does happen. Last year some police officers took a drunk girl into custody, strip searched her and then ***** her. Another police officer filmed them, broke it up and took them to court. This happened about 30 minutes away. Last month some police officers raided a house within walking distance from me, shot all of the dogs including a 3 month lab who was cowering under a table and beat up the people inside.
It hasn't been proven but the guy who got beat up got a drug dealer in trouble and we all think that those officers were paid to make sure he got hurt.

I do not trust the law, only God.
If you blindly trust them then you stupid.... beyond stupid you are just plain dumb.
lol, I do not blindly trust them at all. I know that police corruption is not a rarity. It is a fault in our governmental system that needs to be fixed. However, I do trust police much more than random people with guns.

And please don't bring "Jesus" or "God" into this. And if you really want to, do you think he would want everyone to have guns, or not to have guns? :glare:


And at least look at the murder rates between the US and any country that disallows firearms.
 

_Keno_

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unnecessary but completely expected gif
Okay, fine. Talk about whatever religion you happen to believe in, and explain why you think it encourages people to carry lethal weapons around with them, I'm sure whatever you say will convince someone of something. I won't be responding to it though, discussions of religion are always useless.
 

Browny

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saviorslegacy said:
People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society.
Hello, I live in Australia where guns are illegal except for security/police/hunting weapons.

Im my 22 years and 7 months of being alive, I do believe not once have I seen young people control the streets in gangs and if there was one word to describe the world I live in, I would call it 'civilised'.

You should read up on this SL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav

Now this is the situation you are describing. But you know the difference between Chavs and any other gang of kids which exist everywhere else where guns are illegal? These guys are armed. People carry knives with them in england and walking the streets alone is dangerous. Chavs are a serious problem, so how do you propose we fix it, by giving EVERYONE guns? What sort of civilised society has every single person fearful for their life whenever they leave the house?

Here comes the massive personal bias time. Would you prefer it if gangs like that all had guns, if it meant you had a gun too? How obsessed with guns are you such that you would force every other person has to live in your world of fear if it means you are able to have a gun?
 

Nidtendofreak

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I don't see how legalizing guns is any better than illegalizing them.

Either way humans will continue to deal with each other through force, guns just increase the likelihood of these dealings to be fatal.
^Not picking on you as much as this way of thinking.

Simply put: because the bad guys won't ever stop having guns, even if they are illegal. But instead of having an equal chance to defend yourself, you have lol pepper-spray. There is a reason why per capita there are more violent crimes in Canada, and 3 times as many home invasions during the daytime: the thugs know that the law abiding citizen most likely won't have a gun. If they do have a gun, the weapon will be in one locked up location, and the ammo will be in a different locked up location. He also knows if the citizen even points the empty gun his direction, the citizen could end up in jail very easily.

Meanwhile, in the US, an insanely low number of gun related, nonself-defense deaths are caused by legal guns. I don't remember the article, but it was something like .01%.

Quite frankly: you're stupidly naive if you believe having guns banned helps to truly reduce the amount of gun related crimes by a significant number. The more people who have guns, the lower number of violent crimes, to the point that it's a lower number of gun related deaths than if you have guns illegal. You can never stop criminals from getting guns: you can only stop innocent people who would only defend themselves from having guns.
 
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http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

The US has three times the murder per capita. How can you say that gun ownership will propagate peace?

Likewise, the US has three times the violent crimes/100,000 crimes than Canada. THREE TIMES.

It seems that guns DO reduce the number of violent crimes.

For reference Canada has about 1 million handguns, while the US has 77 million. Canada has significantly stricter gun control than the US.

taken from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#Statistics_Canada_data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
 

Zook

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http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

The US has three times the murder per capita. How can you say that gun ownership will propagate peace?

Likewise, the US has three times the violent crimes/100,000 crimes than Canada. THREE TIMES.

It seems that guns DO reduce the number of violent crimes.

For reference Canada has about 1 million handguns, while the US has 77 million. Canada has significantly stricter gun control than the US.

taken from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada#Statistics_Canada_data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
This post is meaningless. Mexico has some of the strictest gun control laws in the world, and yet their murder rate is triple that of the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Mexico
 

Zero

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saviorslegacy

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As it has been said, guns are not the problem, people are the problem. I think I am wise enough to carry a gun as an added option for defense, not the option for my defense.
Everyone needs to ask themselves the same question before they decide to take on the responsibility of carrying a fire arm. "Will a cause more harm or less if I carry this."
Here's a perfect example of causing more harm by using your weapon for what you think is good.....

Lets say you are eating at a crowded restaurant and two thugs walk in with a potato sack and sawn off shot guns (you can get these where ever hunting is allowed... England and Australia BTW). They yell for everyone to get down. One guy points his gun at the attendant behind the register and tells her to put the money in the bag. The other man is watching everyone else. You are luckily shielded from his sight some and there is a 1911 in the small of your back. You have the ability to draw and shoot both men. What do you think is the wisest thing to do?
IMO the wisest thing to do is nothing. DO NOT SHOOT THEM!!!!!!! If they get the money (which is only like 200$ tops maybe) they will leave (supposedly). They were in, and they were out. No one was harmed. If you shoot there is a very good chance you wont kill BOTH guys quickly and instantly where they don't have the chance to shoot back. More than likely they will shoot those scatter guns and innocent people will be injured or killed.
$200 or someones life.
 

_Keno_

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@ Zook, Mexicans can easily obtain any non-military firearms within the law, which is why the gun related crime rate is so high.

@Zero, please read your own linked article, Finland has extremely tight regulations, so much so that even pepper spray requires registration.

@Savior, stating your conclusion doesnt do anything. And what is the point of your example? That guns used for hunting should be included in gun laws?
 
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