The Gun is Civilization

[Browny]

guns r bad mmmkay

btw saviors, best thing for you right now to not look like an idiot in this thread, would be to go live in another country for an extended period of time where guns are strictly outlawed.

You'll find that it is quite civilised and that you dont fear thugs any more than you would do in your ideal world where everyone has a gun. People will still act like anti-social jerks and your chances of being injured in a violent crime are probably the same if people have the intent to really hurt you. The only difference is how many of those incidents are fatal.

 

[BSP]

But ultimately it works here because there have almost always been strict laws regarding firearms. In America they're so deeply entrenched in society that removing them would be impossible...

That's what I'm thinking, so in the future...I'll probably get one just in case.

I'll think about it more in the future, but in the house, to defend my home and such, I could see that as a legitimate reason to have a gun.

USA's getting a lot of bashing. Well, maybe you guys are right with your examples of how good your countries are doing. But, IMO, since I'm in the USA, I've got to think about the current situation. We've already screwed up, so might as well attempt to even ourselves out.

If we can get rid of them in the future, great, and I'll be fine with going without one. But as long as they run rampamt here, I'm not going to sit there without effective protection.

 

[saviorslegacy]

guns r bad mmmkay

btw saviors, best thing for you right now to not look like an idiot in this thread, would be to go live in another country for an extended period of time where guns are strictly outlawed.

You'll find that it is quite civilised and that you dont fear thugs any more than you would do in your ideal world where everyone has a gun. People will still act like anti-social jerks and your chances of being injured in a violent crime are probably the same if people have the intent to really hurt you. The only difference is how many of those incidents are fatal.

 

[Browny]

The idea of living without a gun has obviously shocked saviors so much, he is incapable of expressing his feelings in words.

Isn't that a sign that this is entering a paranoid addiction stage, rather than some delusional 'I need one to feel unafraid' idea?

 

[saviorslegacy]

The idea of living without a gun has obviously shocked saviors so much, he is incapable of expressing his feelings in words.

Isn't that a sign that this is entering a paranoid addiction stage, rather than some delusional 'I need one to feel unafraid' idea?

 

[Omis]

I originally agreed with Savior but after seeing how immature and close minded he is, Im reevaluating my own policy.

Que cera, cera.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

People do it anyways. durrrrrrrr

That is bull crap. A baseball bat is way more efficient than a .22. At least if a baseball bat hits you in the head you're gonna die.
A .45 will do as much damage as a sharpened stick.
Now hollow points and long rounds like the M16 are pretty unique. Same as the energy generated from a sawn off shot gun. If you take a sawn off shot gun to the chest with kevlar on the buck shot will not go through but you will still probably die.
Anyways, 50 to 60% of all bullets are can do just as much damage as some melee weapons. Either way you will still die extremely quickly if the aggressor knows what they are doing.

Now you're just making idiotic statements.

Even though pedophilia is illegal, people do it anyways. durrrrrr
Even though forceful intercourse (****) is illegal, people do it anyways. durrrrrrr

I don't see how any of what you say can be thought to be coherent argument.


Handguns? You might have a point. But what about shotguns? Rifles?

This is not about coldblooded murder you ignorant ****. This is about the drunk man who comes home at 2AM, gets nagged by his wife and then he pulls out a gun and shoots her once in a blind rage and kills her. This about the woman who booby trapped her front door with a shotgun which was triggered by two 18 year old amateur burglars who died from their intestines being ripped to shreds by buckshot.

People are IRRESPONSIBLE with guns. It happens to the best of us. It just so happens that a few seconds of irresponsibility with a gun can lead to instant death, which is not the case with most other weapons.

 

[Blarg I'm Dead]

For the record, I've read pages 1, 5, and 6, and it seems like a USA/Europe keep guns legal/illegalize them debate so if I look like an *** or bring up something that was on page 3 my bad.

IMO(and probably everyone else's), there's no easy answer. It's a very complicated problem to fix and what might work for one party may not work for another due to culture, beliefs, general attitude, and the many other things that are in the same categories.

Take drinking for example. In the US the drinking age is 21. A good amount of people, intelligent and idiots alike are not big fans of this. In the US like every other part of the world, there are people responsible enough to drink well before this age, and people who lack intelligence to the point they shouldn't drink at 30.

I have a friend from England who isn't a big fan of the US' laws from gun control to drinking. Hassle to work with a 21 year old friend's schedule to get alcohol, police take ~$200 from you if you have alcohol on your breath, etc. While he says in England the police generally don't bother you until you start making trouble where police in the US commonly look for a way to bother you (of course not every police officer, but the point is it's much more common in the US). Not quite walking straight? Expect to lose about $200. Going 10 over? Kiss $180 goodbye. Driving and you aren't white? Don't expect to get off. Expect to wait 45 minutes while the police search your car if your african or hispanic descent.

This friend is very intelligent and responsible enough to the point we don't cause a whole lot of trouble even when blacked out. He says in England going to bars/pubs is a common thing to do and nothing out of the ordinary (in fact if someone asks if you want to go to the pub, the only correct answer is yes as I'm told).

I could go on to explain the differences in how Europe and the US handle food production and overview it, how the work place is different, how the weekends are different (it's a pita to find somewhere open in France on the weekend in the morning to get a cup of coffee), but I'm sure you understand.

My main point is [subtle] differences in attitudes can make an idea work or fail. Plenty of countries are doing fine with guns illegal and you could argue America is doing alright with guns being legal. However, I think there will be obstacles in the path of banning guns in America.

I'd support guns being illegal or legal, as long as it's done well and works for the better. I don't want to live in an America where "good" citizens are not allowed to carry guns while the police and criminals still carry guns. It would defeat the point of banning guns. I don't want to be pulled over with a gun on me and serve jail time while a criminal breaks into someone's house, kills someone, and flees without ever being caught.

Ideally, I'd like for no one to have guns except SWAT and governmental administrations with specific tasks where guns may be necessary for the common good, instead of their job description being arrest criminals, and when there aren't any "criminals" to arrest make as much revenue as possible via tickets and fines.

Or ban handguns, only rifles are legal under strict conditions (hunting, no one hunts with a handgun) with a long process. I don't have a perfect idea, like I said it's a complex problem without an easy answer.

Until that day comes though I'll buy a handgun and get my permit. Someone brought up that if you own a gun you've decided you would kill someone or something along those lines. I don't mean to be ignorant or a ****head by any means, but if someone's going to die between a successful college student who is studying medicine, president of the paintball club at his university, plays paintball competitively at a national level, played two varsity sports in high school, has held a job for years at a time, and came from a good family where good values were taught and more, or a low life mugger who dropped out of high school, is at the bottom level of society only surviving because of welfare/successful people's hard work, doesn't contribute anything worthwhile to society, and their mother probably should've swallowed them. Which one should it be? The answer is obvious.

However, I truly hope that the handgun was a waste of money and I never have to use it but I like multiple options especially when there isn't a good or completely safe option whether I have a gun or not.

My $0.02.

edit: and automatic weapons should be illegal regardless. Automatic weapons for "self defense" is horse****. If you need an automatic weapon for self defense, who the **** did you piss off?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Now you're just making idiotic statements.

Even though pedophilia is illegal, people do it anyways. durrrrrr
Even though forceful intercourse (****) is illegal, people do it anyways. durrrrrrr

I don't see how any of what you say can be thought to be coherent argument.


Handguns? You might have a point. But what about shotguns? Rifles?

This is not about coldblooded murder you ignorant ****. This is about the drunk man who comes home at 2AM, gets nagged by his wife and then he pulls out a gun and shoots her once in a blind rage and kills her. This about the woman who booby trapped her front door with a shotgun which was triggered by two 18 year old amateur burglars who died from their intestines being ripped to shreds by buckshot.

People are IRRESPONSIBLE with guns. It happens to the best of us. It just so happens that a few seconds of irresponsibility with a gun can lead to instant death, which is not the case with most other weapons.

You're the one who started the durrrr thing, not me.

Full length shot guns and rifles are not as dangerous as a hand gun. If you knew anything about guns you would know that. The least I can think of is maybe a sniper. That is about it though.

All weapons should be put up if alcohol is to be consumed and he drank and drove I bet. Sounds like a douche bag to me. The wife should leave him if he does this. Then again, if he is anything like my grandpa he could just beat her to death or almost to death with a flashlight (true story). Like the major said, guns make the field equal.

That is illegal and should not be EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, some people are irresponsible. What we need is better education on firearms. I baffles me how trusting people are. I tested it once. I had my father 1911 and was showing it to people. I would check it for a bullet and then hand it off. Some of the stupid people wouldn't even check!!!!!

Here's the deal though. Can anyone give me reason without a doubt for me to hand over all of my guns to the government to be destroyed?
I honestly can give no reason why you have to own a gun.
I don't have to own a gun anymore than I have to own a TV. I just want to own a gun and I have my reasons for wanting to own one. They are sport, history, handling (I like to clean guns and make them shine......), a challenge (accuracy), competition and protection. I have used a gun for everything listed above except for that last one and I hope it will stay that way.
So I guess I am close minded because of this right?

 

[Browny]

Like the major said, guns make the field equal.

No no NO!

As I said before, this wrong idea rips the entire 'argument' apart because it makes the FATAL assumption that people arent ****ing ********.

Its only makes the field equal vs two people who are sane, sober, calm, willing to accept consequences of their actions, have rationalised their decisions and have the foresight to understand why what they are about to do is wrong, have empathy for others who will be affected by their actions etc.

Unfortunately we do not live in his magical fairy tale land where everyone makes the correct decision every single time. If everyone who ever planned to shoot someone fully understood how their actions would affect others, was in a stable frame of mind and was prepared to accept the consequences, do you REALLY think gun murder would be happening as often as it does?

Seriously man WTF how much more BLATANTLY obvious does it have to be to you that CLEARLY people arent capable of thinking things through entirely, if everyone had a gun, the situation would be the exact same. The only difference is who pulls the trigger first.

 

[saviorslegacy]

For the record, I've read pages 1, 5, and 6, and it seems like a USA/Europe keep guns legal/illegalize them debate so if I look like an *** or bring up something that was on page 3 my bad.

IMO(and probably everyone else's), there's no easy answer. It's a very complicated problem to fix and what might work for one party may not work for another due to culture, beliefs, general attitude, and the many other things that are in the same categories.

Take drinking for example. In the US the drinking age is 21. A good amount of people, intelligent and idiots alike are not big fans of this. In the US like every other part of the world, there are people responsible enough to drink well before this age, and people who lack intelligence to the point they shouldn't drink at 30.

I have a friend from England who isn't a big fan of the US' laws from gun control to drinking. Hassle to work with a 21 year old friend's schedule to get alcohol, police take ~$200 from you if you have alcohol on your breath, etc. While he says in England the police generally don't bother you until you start making trouble where police in the US commonly look for a way to bother you (of course not every police officer, but the point is it's much more common in the US). Not quite walking straight? Expect to lose about $200. Going 10 over? Kiss $180 goodbye. Driving and you aren't white? Don't expect to get off. Expect to wait 45 minutes while the police search your car if your african or hispanic descent.

This friend is very intelligent and responsible enough to the point we don't cause a whole lot of trouble even when blacked out. He says in England going to bars/pubs is a common thing to do and nothing out of the ordinary (in fact if someone asks if you want to go to the pub, the only correct answer is yes as I'm told).

I could go on to explain the differences in how Europe and the US handle food production and overview it, how the work place is different, how the weekends are different (it's a pita to find somewhere open in France on the weekend in the morning to get a cup of coffee), but I'm sure you understand.

My main point is [subtle] differences in attitudes can make an idea work or fail. Plenty of countries are doing fine with guns illegal and you could argue America is doing alright with guns being legal. However, I think there will be obstacles in the path of banning guns in America.

I'd support guns being illegal or legal, as long as it's done well and works for the better. I don't want to live in an America where "good" citizens are not allowed to carry guns while the police and criminals still carry guns. It would defeat the point of banning guns. I don't want to be pulled over with a gun on me and serve jail time while a criminal breaks into someone's house, kills someone, and flees without ever being caught.

Ideally, I'd like for no one to have guns except SWAT and governmental administrations with specific tasks where guns may be necessary for the common good, instead of their job description being arrest criminals, and when there aren't any "criminals" to arrest make as much revenue as possible via tickets and fines.

Or ban handguns, only rifles are legal under strict conditions (hunting, no one hunts with a handgun) with a long process. I don't have a perfect idea, like I said it's a complex problem without an easy answer.

Until that day comes though I'll buy a handgun and get my permit. Someone brought up that if you own a gun you've decided you would kill someone or something along those lines. I don't mean to be ignorant or a ****head by any means, but if someone's going to die between a successful college student who is studying medicine, president of the paintball club at his university, plays paintball competitively at a national level, played two varsity sports in high school, has held a job for years at a time, and came from a good family where good values were taught and more, or a low life mugger who dropped out of high school, is at the bottom level of society only surviving because of welfare/successful people's hard work, doesn't contribute anything worthwhile to society, and their mother probably should've swallowed them. Which one should it be? The answer is obvious.

However, I truly hope that the handgun was a waste of money and I never have to use it but I like multiple options especially when there isn't a good or completely safe option whether I have a gun or not.

My $0.02.

edit: and automatic weapons should be illegal regardless. Automatic weapons for "self defense" is horse****. If you need an automatic weapon for self defense, who the **** did you piss off?

The differences in culture is clear. If I would show some of my buddies this post their comments would probably be something along the lines of "those stupid liberal tw@ts ain't American (and some of you aren't)!" and I can imagine if one of you libs showed your buddies this post their comments would be some where along the lines of "****ing redneck is gonna get someone killed".

I honestly do not see guns leaving America. This country was founded on fighting and it has been our tradition ever since. lol

Actually...... I hunt with a hand gun........

I hope it would end up being a waste of money. If not, hopefully you can prevent the next Virginia Tech or this AZ shootout that I have been hearing about.

As I have said multiple times now.... full auto's should not be in civilians hands. They are fun as hell to shoot, but I would rather see them leave than see people die from shootouts.


Seriously though guys, don't you see the good parts of guns or when you look at them do you only see what evil they can do?
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3290/img0033up.jpg
That gun is my baby. I have literately spent 2 hours cleaning it. It is probably one of my favorite possessions. Would you have me give it up to be melted down and destroyed?




:EDIT:

No no NO!

As I said before, this wrong idea rips the entire 'argument' apart because it makes the FATAL assumption that people arent ****ing ********.

Its only makes the field equal vs two people who are sane, sober, calm, willing to accept consequences of their actions, have rationalised their decisions and have the foresight to understand why what they are about to do is wrong, have empathy for others who will be affected by their actions etc.

Unfortunately we do not live in his magical fairy tale land where everyone makes the correct decision every single time. If everyone who ever planned to shoot someone fully understood how their actions would affect others, was in a stable frame of mind and was prepared to accept the consequences, do you REALLY think gun murder would be happening as often as it does?

Seriously man WTF how much more BLATANTLY obvious does it have to be to you that CLEARLY people arent capable of thinking things through entirely, if everyone had a gun, the situation would be the exact same. The only difference is who pulls the trigger first.

I see your point and may I say you didn't catch what the major meant.
It makes the force that both parties can put out equal. It does not make the humans behind them equal. Everything else is you, a gun is just a tool.



:EDIT:
They made a South Park episode about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8jvEJngh4M

 

[El Nino]

This is one of those inflammatory debate topics that never end, but I think there's potential for good discussion, as long as everyone calms down and stops taking cheap pot shots. And enough with the gifs.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

You're the one who started the durrrr thing, not me.

yes and you are the one who made the nonsense statement that alcohol should be banned because of drunk driving. The difference is that the sole purpose of alcohol isn't to kill. durrrrr

Full length shot guns and rifles are not as dangerous as a hand gun. If you knew anything about guns you would know that. The least I can think of is maybe a sniper. That is about it though.

I'm not going to pretend like I know more than you about guns specifics.

But I do know that a shot to the chest or head from any firearm within reasonable range can easily kill a person instantly.

All weapons should be put up if alcohol is to be consumed and he drank and drove I bet. Sounds like a douche bag to me. The wife should leave him if he does this. Then again, if he is anything like my grandpa he could just beat her to death or almost to death with a flashlight (true story). Like the major said, guns make the field equal.

You are unbelievably naive. Half of what you said has no bearing on the argument and is completely irrelevant.

Douchebag or not, this is what happens when guns are widespread.

And are you honestly comparing a single gunshot to killing somebody beating them with a flashlight? You can't be serious.

That is illegal and should not be EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, some people are irresponsible. What we need is better education on firearms. I baffles me how trusting people are. I tested it once. I had my father 1911 and was showing it to people. I would check it for a bullet and then hand it off. Some of the stupid people wouldn't even check!!!!!

Education on firearms? Perhaps. Could you give me an example of what would be taught in such a class?

"guns are dangerous!"

Here's the deal though. Can anyone give me reason without a doubt for me to hand over all of my guns to the government to be destroyed?
I honestly can give no reason why you have to own a gun.
I don't have to own a gun anymore than I have to own a TV. I just want to own a gun and I have my reasons for wanting to own one. They are sport, history, handling (I like to clean guns and make them shine......), a challenge (accuracy), competition and protection. I have used a gun for everything listed above except for that last one and I hope it will stay that way.
So I guess I am close minded because of this right?

No, it is a completely respectable and understandable position to collect guns, within reason. I am just that guns are dangerous and should be under much much stricter control. Meanwhile, you were arguing for legalizing Assault Rifles, for reasons I cannot possibly comprehend.

 

[saviorslegacy]

yes and you are the one who made the nonsense statement that alcohol should be banned because of drunk driving. The difference is that the sole purpose of alcohol isn't to kill. durrrrr

But the alcohol is the root. If there was no alcohol involved there would be no 40,000 deaths from drunk driving.

I'm not going to pretend like I know more than you about guns specifics.

But I do know that a shot to the chest or head from any firearm within reasonable range can easily kill a person instantly.

Here's what you do not know. What is easier to point as someone a broom or a book. If they jump to the side which one can you have pointed at the person the soonest?
Full length rifles and shot guns are not designed for close combat. That is why we shortened the barrels after WW2.

So the longer the barrel the safer. Then again you have the whole sawn off issue.

You are unbelievably naive. Half of what you said has no bearing on the argument and is completely irrelevant.

Douchebag or not, this is what happens when guns are widespread.

What I said would have prevented both scenarios.

No, this is what happens when humans have free will. If you remove guns there will still be bad.

And are you honestly comparing a single gunshot to killing somebody beating them with a flashlight? You can't be serious.

My grandma would be equally as defenseless to one or the other. She spent I think 3 weeks in the hospital after that and a week in a coma I believe. I really don't know, and I hate my grandpa. He's one of the people that need to die.
Luckily grandma was smart enough to keep the gun hidden from grandpa so he wouldn't shoot her.

Education on firearms? Perhaps. Could you give me an example of what would be taught in such a class?

"guns are dangerous!"

*speaking to children*
Gun are dangerous and should never be handled without an adult. They can kill.
Never point a gun at any person. Never point a gun at any object you do not intend shooting.
*hands kids a BB gun*

Teach them gun safety rules such checking it to see if it is loaded, leaving the safety on and only putting bullets in it if you plan on shooting at that very moment.
Teach them proper storage of weapons, trigger discipline and how to properly carry a fire arm.

That would be the bare bones of a safety class done by me. I of course skipped range safety and car laws in the above.

No, it is a completely respectable and understandable position to collect guns, within reason. I am just that guns are dangerous and should be under much much stricter control. Meanwhile, you were arguing for legalizing Assault Rifles, for reasons I cannot possibly comprehend.

Dude don't put words in my mouth. I am not trying to legalize something that is already legal in semi auto form and I have already stated that I am against the full auto form.

Besides, "Assault Rifle" is a made up word. There is no exact definition of an assault weapon.

This is what wiki reads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle
They say that it is a rifle that has auto and semi auto options and has a detachable magazine. Here's the deal though, the FAL is semi auto and considered an Assault Rifle. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jGpQ0PtBNzE/THYCDspEVxI/AAAAAAAAAwI/Ke2dzfBFAws/s1600/FN-Fal01.jpg
Same thing as an AR and M1A. Then again, something like a mini-14 http://www.modelguns.co.uk/images/mini14p.jpg is considered a Ranch Rifle even though it is just as deadly as a FAL. It even uses M16 ammo (.223 or 5x56). If that isn't screwed up enough this is technically an Assault Rifle. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oZaomizvY8M/TIibB2He5gI/AAAAAAAAI-Q/AVQODxjqLd0/s1600/hk_mp5k.jpg Then again, it is also a sub machine gun.

The term "Assault Weapon" is a made up term without an absolute definition. The closest thing you can get to is a rifle used by the military.

 

[Falconv1.0]

This is one of those inflammatory debate topics that never end, but I think there's potential for good discussion, as long as everyone calms down and stops taking cheap pot shots. And enough with the gifs.

Yeah but this is User Blogs.

And probably why Teran drinks.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

But the alcohol is the root. If there was no alcohol involved there would be no 40,000 deaths from drunk driving.

If this is honestly what you think then there is no reason to continue debating lol.

 

[saviorslegacy]

If this is honestly what you think then there is no reason to continue debating lol.

I'm talking about the root of the accident. If the person was not drunk and driving they are way less likely to crash.
My question is.... why wouldn't you agree with that?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Did you just say guns could stop something like another Virginia Tech?

Bringing guns to school will help stop shootings in schools?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Did you just say guns could stop something like another Virginia Tech?

Bringing guns to school will help stop shootings in schools?

I believe he's claiming that someone could have shot him before he shot more people.

 

[El Nino]

Yeah but this is User Blogs.

And probably why Teran drinks.

And why I can't quit smoking.

My main issue with the anti-gun lobby (at least in my state) is that they pass legislation to restrict the legal sale and possession of firearms, but they don't seem to do a whole lot to address the illegal gun trade. I mean, their argument that less guns on the streets = less gun related deaths is a good argument. Not to mention that the presence of guns on the streets only makes cops more aggressive and willing to shoot first and ask questions later. However, I don't think that restricting the legal sale of firearms is going to address that problem. Gangs make their own drugs and deal their own drugs, and they have ways of smuggling firearms too. If you already have a rap sheet, you either can't get a gun legally, or you don't want to leave a paper trail, but that doesn't mean you're not going to get a gun. It just means that you're going to buy one on the street that can't be traced to you. So I think that if you want to stop gun related deaths from a criminal angle, you had better do something about the illegal market rather than the legal one. Of course, that just blends right in with a host of other problems involving gang activity, drugs, etc.

I think the problem is systematic. It goes way beyond gun ownership. I don't think that anti-gun legislation is the way to go. Making it harder for people to legally attain guns is only going to affect people who legally attain guns. For the rest of 'em, we need to address the wider issue of gang violence and crime and everything that goes with it.

It isn't so much the principal as it is the practical nature of it. My state has gun control measures in place, and I honestly haven't seen evidence that it works the way the legislators say it's supposed to work. The idea is to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, not ordinary citizens, because it's criminals with guns that are the problem, but anti-gun laws don't seem to address that effectively. I know you could say that for any law, but having guns isn't the problem by itself so much as it is the people who have them and how they use them, which isn't something that can be said for a crime like **** or assault, which is a problem no matter who commits it.

I could say that we would end all **** if we just castrated everybody, but I don't think anyone here would be down for that.

Edit: That's a really bad analogy. I can't believe I went there.

Last point (promise!): I don't think the vast majority of gun-related violence is due to irresponsible gun owners. I think they're due to people who with murderous intent who actively want to kill people, and people with that intent aren't going to be stopped because of a 30 day waiting period. They're not going to be stopped by a gun ban either. My only guess about how to address people like the Virginia Tech shooter is to take the same approach you would for a guy like McVeigh (who didn't use guns in Oklahoma City) and amp up security in places that are likely targets for them, schools and government buildings. After 9/11, airports implemented new security measures because you sure as h*ll can't ban airplanes. After the Unabomber, companies started training their personnel to follow safety procedures regarding suspicious packages because you can't ban mail either. In my mind, that's the only course of action that works.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Oh, savior, how do you feel about the recent shooting at the Arizona rally? Several people had guns but no one stopped the shooter.

HOW THE HELL ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO CONTROL HOW BULLETS ARE USED!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!!??!?!?!?!??! The guys using shooting for fun can easily burn through 300 bullets or more at one sitting. It already costs $15 for 20 Winchester 30-30. I shoot my black powder revolver at close to 10 cents a shot though.
Seriously though, there is no way to regulate ammo. That like trying to guess if someone is going to use that bottle of wine to get **** faced and then drive later or to drink slowly over the next week.

First of all, my question went way over your head.

Second, you did that thing again. You know, when you sprinkle in extra information just to stroke your ****.

Finally, you didn't answer any of the questions. You simply picked out one word, decided what you wanted for it to mean, and ranted about it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Double post.

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

ITT: gun guy responds in gifs because he can't counter arguments.

 

[Ace55]

After starting a topic about the legislation on items that are designed to kill people, when people argue with you, you respond with GIF jokes? Tea party movement mentality at it's finest?

Your argument is basically, if we'd live in the Wild West, people wouldn't get killed/commit crimes.

 

[Mic_128]

I believe he's claiming that someone could have shot him before he shot more people.

Yeah, that'll work, until Person C who didn't see that Person A was going to shoot until Person B shot them, so Person C shoots Person B. Of course Person D didn't see the above and just sees Person C with two corpses and shoots them. Ect.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Oh, savior, how do you feel about the recent shooting at the Arizona rally? Several people had guns but no one stopped the shooter.





First of all, my question went way over your head.

Second, you did that thing again. You know, when you sprinkle in extra information just to stroke your ****.

Finally, you didn't answer any of the questions. You simply picked out one word, decided what you wanted for it to mean, and ranted about it.

How would you feel if that happened even if guns were banned?
Honestly, that is one of those people who shouldn't own weapons and shows how most of the time the police look into a murder and not prevent it......

Then please reiterate how we are supposed to control the illegal sale of ammo (which there isn't one) and guns.

Please list the questions I have not answered.

ITT: gun guy responds in gifs because he can't counter arguments.

You shut up. What have you done to contribute.
You know I started this out being serious about the OP but wanting to troll because I knew there were libtards who prowled the video game website but now I really starting to get pissed off.

After starting a topic about the legislation on items that are designed to kill people, when people argue with you, you respond with GIF jokes? Tea party movement mentality at it's finest?

Your argument is basically, if we'd live in the Wild West, people wouldn't get killed/commit crimes.

Because this has been me poking fun at stupid liberal tw@ts but now I am angry. It is people like you who will be our downfall. America has always been about freedom. This country was set up for you to live any way you like but the government is there to act as a filter to keep some bad stuff out and some good stuff in. They have over done it and stepped outside of their boundary. Do you think our forefathers wanted to set up a nation where people play government and ban sling shots in some areas? Seriously, why is it illegal in Salt Lake City but you can still own a fully automatic Ak-47? You guys want the government to take care of you. Take care of yourself. We don't need the government to be looking after us that is how we lose our rights.
Right now the government is after the 1st and 2nd amendment. Both are our rights that we deserve. What's next, the 4th amendment?
There are idiots in our government and I don't know about you but I do not like the idea of trusting my life, my welfare and the welfare of my family to them.
I mean look at what they have already done. Extensive war where the people aren't behind our goals (I will still fight but it feels like it's going to be worthless), we dropped dummy depth charges on a Russian sub and they almost fired a nuclear tipped torpedo at us... the depth charges was our glorious leaders idea, our federal bank is privately owned!!!!!!!!!!! Thomas Jefferson warned us to never do this, we have a health care reform that at the surface does not seem that bad but it forces you to buy health care, a bill that will regulate private farming? (the government should leave the food that we grow alone and allow us to do with it what we want), the legal ownership of fully automatic weapons and they are trying to cut down on major shoot outs where the soul intention is to kill people.... BAN THE FULL AUTO WEAPONS!!!!!!! ect. ect. ect.

I'm just waiting for a reason for them to do away with amendment 4. It's out of the spot light right now but it will get it's time.
And what about guns that I own. I guess I should get rid of my .22 that dad spent money he didn't have so that I can have my first gun. How about my black powder revolver that takes at least 2 minutes to reload correctly and some times misfires. My Mosin? How about my 1894 Winchester? These guns are all old and pretty much worthless. The best one of them is that Winchester and still anyone with a 1911 or glock will still pown me.

You guys aren't getting the big picture. I tried to show you examples of where a gun should not be used so you can't go "guns don't fix every situation" because they don't. The major showed how a gun makes the field even in power. You didn't even get that you started wining about how the people could not be even. Do you want the government to make everyone even for you to?
I tried to show how full auto weapons are not the only thing that is incredibly dangerous and that if you ban all gun except maybe hunting rifles you can still make deadly weapons. Even if all guns are banned you can still make deadly weapons. You can never get rid of guns. You can't just disarm the populace and until you can up with a way to get rid of every gun everywhere and delete everyone's knowledge on how to produce them you will just be arguing over a failed endeavor.
Oh, and get rid of the knowledge how to build home made grenades (which I am surprised that more people aren't using them).

If they do ban guns we are going to have another prohibition. We learned from there that there are some things you do not touch. One of those things is alcohol and another is guns and I guess tobacco.
If you ban these it just gives organized crime a door way and criminal activity will INCREASE not DECREASE.

Oh, and as a final note I read two different stories where a gun was needed. There was a 12 year old girl who was home alone and people tried to break in and steal from this girls house. She went up stairs and got her pink .22. She shot once and scared them off.
The other story was about a 90 (I think it was 90) year old widow. She kept a .38 on her walker and one day someone tried to break in. She shot once over their head and they fled.
The police showed up 5 minutes later. She asked one to reload her revolver for her cus her fingers ain't what they use to be. The officer done it and then he left.

I guess it would be fair to give these people a baseball bat or a little taser.
If a big ole guy had a bat and he came in and saw these to people sitting back there with a knife, taser or anything that is not a gun he is bound to laugh. What happens if he has a gun and since guns are illegal these poor women just get shot.



Oh, and I have heard enough about how guns just out do everything. One of my dads war buddies is a cop in a semi big city called Chillicothe. He said that there are about twice as many baseball bat deaths as there are gun related deaths. Gangs prefer bats or their fists/brass knuckles over a gun. I guess they enjoy beating the life out of someone.
If guns are banned there is no way for one person to defend himself from lets say 3 gang members. There is absolutely no way.

Yes, people are not perfect we all get this but because we are not all perfect should we sacrifice the ability to protect ourselves and our families?

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

You shut up. What have you done to contribute.
You know I started this out being serious about the OP but wanting to troll because I knew there were libtards who prowled the video game website but now I really starting to get pissed off.

Troll getting trolled.
It seems the tables have turned!

 

[saviorslegacy]

Troll getting trolled.
It seems the tables have turned!

Yeah basically.

 

[El Nino]

Once again, reminding people to keep it civil and leave off on the name-calling. I know everyone gets all passionate about this topic, but this is starting to look like the comments section of a Yahoo article.

Keep in mind there are regional differences to perceptions of crime and gun culture. If you live in a rural area with a lot of guns but very little crime, you're not going to have a problem with guns. If you live in an urban area with a lot of guns and a lot of crime, you're probably going to associate guns with gang culture. Both perceptions are valid; they just come from different environments.

 

[Ace55]

I just wanna add that your romanticizing of guns is kind of disturbing. Just because you were raised a gun lover doesn't proof or mean anything.

Also, making 'It is people like you who will be our downfall' statement is rather pointless. Do you think anybody ever changed anybodies mind by insulting them and saying they are a menace to the country? I could say the same about you, but it useless and shows your disability to argue your point.

What's your stance on legalizing drugs btw? Just curious.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I just wanna add that your romanticizing of guns is kind of disturbing. Just because you were raised a gun lover doesn't proof or mean anything.

Also, making 'It is people like you who will be our downfall' statement is rather pointless. Do you think anybody ever changed anybodies mind by insulting them and saying they are a menace to the country? I could say the same about you, but it useless and shows your disability to argue your point.

What's your stance on legalizing drugs btw? Just curious.

As EL Nino said, difference in where you live. Around here even the women shoot. My mom and dad carry guns and almost everyone in the family has either had military training, police training or concealed carry training.

I am under the impression it is just about impossible to change anyone's mind over the internet.


There is good and bad to the legalization of drugs.
The good is that it will make it harder for gangs to get profits (and thus maybe fewer gangs) and we will be able to tax the crap out of it to help with the national debt.
The down side is that there will probably be more addicts and more driving while high.
The reason why I am so against the whole driving under the influence thing is because around here that happens often. It's the whole thing of beer and vodka and then goin home.

Anyways, I honestly have not looked into the legalization of drugs that much.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Savior, I'm not listing what you didn't answer. Go back, look for a question mark. Simple.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Savior, I'm not listing what you didn't answer. Go back, look for a question mark. Simple.

*to much time
You want me to answer something then copy and paste it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Right around the time i read

Right now the government is after the 1st and 2nd amendment.

I realized exactly what kind of person we're dealing with. Someone close this thread, it's not going to turn in to anything good.



Also, just to make this post not meaningless, my stance on guns has always been this: I have no problem with guns being legal, you want to own a gun, you want to go hunting, you want to go to the shooting range(lord knows I do, but that's always cus I've really thought I have good aim and just want to prove myself wrong) go right ahead. But the mentality that a gun as self defense is a good idea just strikes me as terrible. In order to use a gun for self defense you have to legitimately be ready to kill someone because there's no guarantee that using it wont result in loss of life. I feel like if I were being mugged I'd be far more perfectly ok with letting someone have the $20 i keep in my wallet and the debit card I can have canceled right away than I would be with becoming a murderer. Moreso, if you're dealing with someone who is entirely ok with killing you, going for a gun is the quickest way to get yourself shot. Gun control isnt really going to solve the problems of people shooting people but god knows more guns definitely wont solve the problem of people killing people.

 

[Melomaniacal]

*to much time
You want me to answer something then copy and paste it.

Listen, if you don't care enough to actually read what I type and think about it, then I'm not about to continue talking to you. The less I talk with you, the better, anyway. You make me embarrassed to call myself an American.

 

[Browny]

Alllllllrighty then (Responses in blue are ones I'm serious about)

Because this has been me poking fun at stupid liberal tw@ts but now I am angry. It is people like you who will be our downfall. America has always been about freedom. This country was set up for you to live any way you like but the government is there to act as a filter to keep some bad stuff out and some good stuff in. They have over done it and stepped outside of their boundary. Do you think our forefathers wanted to set up a nation where people play government and ban sling shots in some areas? Seriously, why is it illegal in Salt Lake City but you can still own a fully automatic Ak-47? You guys want the government to take care of you. Take care of yourself. We don't need the government to be looking after us that is how we lose our rights.
Right now the government is after the 1st and 2nd amendment. Both are our rights that we deserve. What's next, the 4th amendment?
There are idiots in our government and I don't know about you but I do not like the idea of trusting my life, my welfare and the welfare of my family to them.
I mean look at what they have already done. Extensive war where the people aren't behind our goals (I will still fight but it feels like it's going to be worthless), we dropped dummy depth charges on a Russian sub and they almost fired a nuclear tipped torpedo at us... the depth charges was our glorious leaders idea, our federal bank is privately owned!!!!!!!!!!! Thomas Jefferson warned us to never do this, we have a health care reform that at the surface does not seem that bad but it forces you to buy health care, a bill that will regulate private farming? (the government should leave the food that we grow alone and allow us to do with it what we want), the legal ownership of fully automatic weapons and they are trying to cut down on major shoot outs where the soul intention is to kill people.... BAN THE FULL AUTO WEAPONS!!!!!!! ect. ect. ect.

I'm just waiting for a reason for them to do away with amendment 4. It's out of the spot light right now but it will get it's time.

Lol America hurrr durrr constitution. The degree to which people are completely incapable of accepting the fact that some things it says NO LONGER APPLY IN 2011 is strangely similar to religious fundamentalists *cough*terrorists*cough* and we all know how much america loves them.

You guys aren't getting the big picture. I tried to show you examples of where a gun should not be used so you can't go "guns don't fix every situation" because they don't. The major showed how a gun makes the field even in power. You didn't even get that you started wining about how the people could not be even. Do you want the government to make everyone even for you to?

Conveniently missing the points I made about the major not showing ANYTHING, only describing a hypothetical situation? His theory has as much credibility as the CERN creating a black hole. FUNNY HOW THEYRE BOTH AMER- *shot*
Oh god double puns... I couldnt help myself

If they do ban guns we are going to have another prohibition. We learned from there that there are some things you do not touch. One of those things is alcohol and another is guns and I guess tobacco.
If you ban these it just gives organized crime a door way and criminal activity will INCREASE not DECREASE.

Lol where does this come from. Heres my counter argument: If you make guns illegal, criminal actiivty will Decrease. Bam, my facts have just as much credibility as your claim (ie; 0). Dont invent scenarios as if you know what will happen, you have NO IDEA.

Oh, and as a final note I read two different stories where a gun was needed. There was a 12 year old girl who was home alone and people tried to break in and steal from this girls house. She went up stairs and got her pink .22. She shot once and scared them off.
The other story was about a 90 (I think it was 90) year old widow. She kept a .38 on her walker and one day someone tried to break in. She shot once over their head and they fled.
The police showed up 5 minutes later. She asked one to reload her revolver for her cus her fingers ain't what they use to be. The officer done it and then he left.

Oh I see. So lets look at this from the robbers view, yes they are criminals. They might be stealing because they are desperate to feed an addiction of some sort and they only want enough money to buy some smokes, nothing irreplaceable. Should the little girl be the judge and jury, sentencing these people to death for their one wrong decision? Where was the criminals chance at a fair trial? Not everything is so simple and if you think every single crime should be punishable by death by anyone who is clearly not in a stable frame of mind (terrified in the girls case), then you are a psychopath. Extend this example to road rage, a MUCH more likely scenario... If everyone who ever got mad on the roads had guns, wed be ****ed. Owait, only you would be in USA.

I guess it would be fair to give these people a baseball bat or a little taser.
If a big ole guy had a bat and he came in and saw these to people sitting back there with a knife, taser or anything that is not a gun he is bound to laugh. What happens if he has a gun and since guns are illegal these poor women just get shot.

AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN

If this man was so insane that he would shoot an innocent person, what the HELL makes you think he wouldnt do the exact same if she had a gun? I suppose in a split second, all his drunkeness, rage, addictions etc all dissapear? Hes just going to suddenly run away, hoping he doesnt get shot in the back, instead of shooting her first? Hes clearly showed his intentions to murder, I most definitely would not bet anything on the result not being the same. Except this time if the criminal does pull the trigger first, he has a LEGITIMATE excuse for murder. Lol I just thought of that, her having a gun would only decrease the mans sentence if he was caught (the chance of him killing her is still the same)

Yes, people are not perfect we all get this but because we are not all perfect should we sacrifice the ability to protect ourselves and our families?

Come live in.... IDK, Every other civislised country in the WHOLE WORLD and find out that owning a gun does nothing but increases your paranoia. Being forced to protect oneself and family with a gun is a MYTH perpetrated by gun-loving nuts who once again, will make up every excuse under the sun to justify a selfish desire to own a gun. People live PERFECTLY FINE in all other civilised countries without guns, you could too if anyone bothered to try.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Alllllllrighty then (Responses in blue are ones I'm serious about)

Lol America hurrr durrr constitution. The degree to which people are completely incapable of accepting the fact that some things it says NO LONGER APPLY IN 2011 is strangely similar to religious fundamentalists *cough*terrorists*cough* and we all know how much america loves them.

If you don't like the constitution **** out of America.

Conveniently missing the points I made about the major not showing ANYTHING, only describing a hypothetical situation? His theory has as much credibility as the CERN creating a black hole. FUNNY HOW THEYRE BOTH AMER- *shot*
Oh god double puns... I couldnt help myself

What do you mean hypothetical situation? These things happen. idiot

Lol where does this come from. Heres my counter argument: If you make guns illegal, criminal actiivty will Decrease. Bam, my facts have just as much credibility as your claim (ie; 0). Dont invent scenarios as if you know what will happen, you have NO IDEA.

You honestly do not know what you are talking about.
We have to many gangs to just ban weapons and hope that crime disappears.
As I said before, in the city of Chilicothe more people are dying from baseball bats than guns. I do not know about other cities though.
So now what? Should we ban baseball bats?

Don't talk about crime like you know what will happen. Honestly your just another libtard in the sea of idiots to me.

Oh I see. So lets look at this from the robbers view, yes they are criminals. They might be stealing because they are desperate to feed an addiction of some sort and they only want enough money to buy some smokes, nothing irreplaceable. Should the little girl be the judge and jury, sentencing these people to death for their one wrong decision? Where was the criminals chance at a fair trial? Not everything is so simple and if you think every single crime should be punishable by death by anyone who is clearly not in a stable frame of mind (terrified in the girls case), then you are a psychopath. Extend this example to road rage, a MUCH more likely scenario... If everyone who ever got mad on the roads had guns, wed be ****ed. Owait, only you would be in USA.

The girl and the old lady did not kill. You only need the threat of a gun in most scenarios.
Sorry, but am I to assume you are sympathizing with the criminal?
Do you have any idea how illegal it is to have a gun in arms reach within a vehicle.

AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN

If this man was so insane that he would shoot an innocent person, what the HELL makes you think he wouldnt do the exact same if she had a gun? I suppose in a split second, all his drunkeness, rage, addictions etc all dissapear? Hes just going to suddenly run away, hoping he doesnt get shot in the back, instead of shooting her first? Hes clearly showed his intentions to murder, I most definitely would not bet anything on the result not being the same. Except this time if the criminal does pull the trigger first, he has a LEGITIMATE excuse for murder. Lol I just thought of that, her having a gun would only decrease the mans sentence if he was caught (the chance of him killing her is still the same)

What happens if he don't have a gun. Most people like that spend all of their money on drugs and not on weapons. Why do you think most of them have bats?
If they don't have a gun why would he even consider them a threat? That was my point... that you missed.....

Come live in.... IDK, Every other civislised country in the WHOLE WORLD and find out that owning a gun does nothing but increases your paranoia. Being forced to protect oneself and family with a gun is a MYTH perpetrated by gun-loving nuts who once again, will make up every excuse under the sun to justify a selfish desire to own a gun. People live PERFECTLY FINE in all other civilised countries without guns, you could too if anyone bothered to try.

So are you calling America uncivilized?
Get a ticket and leave then. You wont be missed.
Dude, people actually have protected their families with guns. I see what kind of a person you are now. You think everything that the gun owners are saying about weapons are lies or excuses and that guns are only meant to do crimes.
Don't come around my neck of the woods. We'll laugh you out. lol I would be willing to let ya shoot some though. (seriously though)

Right around the time i read



I realized exactly what kind of person we're dealing with. Someone close this thread, it's not going to turn in to anything good.



Also, just to make this post not meaningless, my stance on guns has always been this: I have no problem with guns being legal, you want to own a gun, you want to go hunting, you want to go to the shooting range(lord knows I do, but that's always cus I've really thought I have good aim and just want to prove myself wrong) go right ahead. But the mentality that a gun as self defense is a good idea just strikes me as terrible. In order to use a gun for self defense you have to legitimately be ready to kill someone because there's no guarantee that using it wont result in loss of life. I feel like if I were being mugged I'd be far more perfectly ok with letting someone have the $20 i keep in my wallet and the debit card I can have canceled right away than I would be with becoming a murderer. Moreso, if you're dealing with someone who is entirely ok with killing you, going for a gun is the quickest way to get yourself shot. Gun control isnt really going to solve the problems of people shooting people but god knows more guns definitely wont solve the problem of people killing people.

I was referring to a recent quote saying that Congress wants to impose stricter laws on guns and controlling people who speak out of turn. They did not give an exact definition on what "out of turn".

That's the way I feel. I do not have a problem if people do not like guns. It's when they try and convince me that guns are bad is when I get annoyed.

People who carry for self defense come from a military family, military, live in the woods where there are no cops or are cops. All of these people have been lectured about guns for a long time. As I said, I believe I was 5 when I shot my first pistol. I have been preached to about guns for as long as I can remember.

I have been mugged before. Some of the areas around here are not smart to go into after dark and I did it anyways and paid the price. I was carrying a large knife, but I handed over my money anyways because it was not worth my life, his life or our health. Money is trivial. Life is precious and should be protected.

Dude, if you want to go to a gun range. Shooting is a lot of fun. Most gun ranges will rent you guns. It will be like $20 for the gun and then you buy all of the ammo. Some give you a deal of $50 for any gun you want to shoot in their selection and of course the ammo. Most offer full autos to. I don't recommend shooting a full auto unless you get the $50 deal. They are money pits.



I was going to say this but I can remember where so Ima just gonna say it.
I am not at any moment saying that all gun owners are smart. In fact, some should not own guns. I know this one guy about a year younger than me. He hypes up and talks about open carrying everywhere and how he is a crack shot and everything. I have tried to convince him to not open carry in public but he does it anyways. He will go waltzing into wal-mart with a .357 on his side. He's almost shot me and another friend. Most of us stay clear of him. He is an idiot.


If I had my way I would add these laws:
If you are ever caught drinking and driving you are assumed irresponsible to own dangerous firearms and are here by reduced to full length bolt action rifles and single shot shot guns (for hunting).

Full auto and magazine fed rifles are prohibited within city limits without being deactivated (removal of the firing pin) and stored properly (in a safe).

There shall be no pistols with a capacity over 7 rounds (hopefully preventing large shoot outs).

All guns should be stored in a gun safe when not in use.

All pistols shall be registered to the owner and reviewed by authorities twice a year (to prevent passing them to the black market... this will make it harder for criminals to get them). In the case that someone does break in the guns should be lucked up in the gun safe and.... safe.


Most gun related violence comes from gangs. We tackle the gang issue we tackle the gun issue. Those laws should help reduce problems with gangs.

Listen, if you don't care enough to actually read what I type and think about it, then I'm not about to continue talking to you. The less I talk with you, the better, anyway. You make me embarrassed to call myself an American.

Yeah since I know exactly what questions you are talking about. You guys have failed to answer a few things that I have said. Do you hear me wining and *****ing about it? no

 

[Big-Cat]

There's a line between patriotism and fanaticism. If I don't like the Constitution, you don't know that I simply want what I think is best for the country. Heck, you can probably apply that to all people that say they don't like the Constitution.

I can't stand you overly conservative types. On the other hand, I can't stand the super liberals.

Personally, I prefer close quarters combat. And instead of more gun laws to keep them in (why does this remind me of a certain winged puff ball?), why not just put in mental checkups. I'm fine if a gun owner is sane and has self restraint, but I'm down right scared if someone has a history of a violent temper has a gun.

 

[_Keno_]

If you don't like the constitution **** out of America.

If you think the constitution is perfect, get the **** back into reality.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Savior, the word you are looking for is "whining," not "wining."