The General Bandai-Namco Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

So... I'm trying to tone down my hopefulness to avoid being disappointed... would people mind telling me their best argument against Digimon?

The only argument I have is that there are tons of potential characters left and only two slots. The chances of any particular character getting in are pretty low. Nothing really specifically against Digimon.

 

[fogbadge]

So... I'm trying to tone down my hopefulness to avoid being disappointed... would people mind telling me their best argument against Digimon?

sakurai may think it’s too connected to the anime

 

[Twilord]

sakurai may think it’s too connected to the anime

Given that he's added Ash Greninja and elements of Advent Children to the Final Fantasy stuff, and what I'm pretty sure was his first non-Nintendo project was the Sodatete! Mushiking, a V-Pet in the very sub-genre that Digimon invented I honestly doubt it.

He's probably keenly aware of its influence on Virtual Pets and that genres influence on the wider industry. Not just because he's live it first hand but also because he seems like the type of guy who when working on a project like Mushiking would make a major point of knowing the history of the genre as intimately as possible - and at the same time, he was probably a bit too old for the anime.

Also honestly having their games dismissed because people assume its a tie in to a popular anime rather than the other way around sorta must suck for Bandai Namco, which seems like something Sakurai wouldn't mind helping with. The way that flows at the moment probably only benefits Toei who for our purposes are a non-factor.


Oh, but I will admit you've helped a bit with my issue which is good.



EDIT: Momentarily had the wrong comment quoted.

 

[fogbadge]

Given that he's added Ash Greninja and elements of Advent Children to the Final Fantasy stuff, and what I'm pretty sure was his first non-Nintendo project was the Sodatete! Mushiking, a V-Pet in the very sub-genre that Digimon invented I honestly doubt it.

He's probably keenly aware of its influence on Virtual Pets and that genres influence on the wider industry. Not just because he's live it first hand but also because he seems like the type of guy who when working on a project like Mushiking would make a major point of knowing the history of the genre as intimately as possible - and at the same time, he was probably a bit too old for the anime.

Also honestly having their games dismissed because people assume its a tie in to a popular anime rather than the other way around sorta must suck for Bandai Namco, which seems like something Sakurai wouldn't mind helping with. The way that flows at the moment probably only benefits Toei who for our purposes are a non-factor.


Oh, but I will admit you've helped a bit with my issue which is good.



EDIT: Momentarily had the wrong comment quoted.

I refer you to my previous post about how they’re all different situations

 

[Twilord]

I refer you to my previous post about how they’re all different situations

To be fair your previous post matters if they're trying to invoke anime concepts; my assumption is one of Bandai Namco's goals for Digimon in Smash Bros would be pointing out that while they have had some great anime its fundamentally a game series, so people shouldn't assume their games are... how do I put this delicately... 'tie in quality'

 

[fogbadge]

To be fair your previous post matters if they're trying to invoke anime concepts; my assumption is one of Bandai Namco's goals for Digimon in Smash Bros would be pointing out that while they have had some great anime its fundamentally a game series, so people shouldn't assume their games are... how do I put this delicately... 'tie in quality'

well my thinking is that we have no way of knowing how sakurai sees it. We could all think of it as a game series but he might not. At the end of the day digimons biggest problem will be sakurai

which is true of any character

 

[Twilord]

well my thinking is that we have no way of knowing how sakurai sees it. We could all think of it as a game series but he might not. At the end of the day digimons biggest problem will be sakurai

which is true of any character

Very true; and he might have a much stranger view point than I'm assuming he'll have just because of him making a game in the genre it founded; but that interpretation would just be too alien to me for me to factor in appropriately.

Thanks for your help. Hopefully this insight won't prove useful but if it does I owe you one.


EDIT: Typo on phone turned 'it' into 'I'.

 

[Starlight Liger]

So... I'm trying to tone down my hopefulness to avoid being disappointed... would people mind telling me their best argument against Digimon?

The argument of whether Digimon's origins as a male-targeted Tamagotchi would be classified as a video game to Sakurai.

 

[Lionfranky]

I think Sakurai would be very aware of origin of Digimon since he is an avid gamer and gaming historian... sorta
BTW, how does Toei come into picture? Square Enix was already bad with their licensing issue.
How much does Toei affect Digimon licensing? I know that Bandai Namco owns Digimon franchise entirely, but anime still goes to Toei iirc...
Which makes licensing for songs like Butterfly and Brave Heart mostly pipe dream...
But oh man... I would kill to get at least those songs in Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

I think Sakurai would be very aware of origin of Digimon since he is an avid gamer and gaming historian... sorta
BTW, how does Toei come into picture? Square Enix was already bad with their licensing issue.
How much does Toei affect Digimon licensing? I know that Bandai Namco owns Digimon franchise entirely, but anime still goes to Toei iirc...
Which makes licensing for songs like Butterfly and Brave Heart mostly pipe dream...
But oh man... I would kill to get at least those songs in Smash.

he may be aware of its origins but that doesn’t mean he’d consider it a video game franchise

 

[Lionfranky]

he may be aware of its origins but that doesn’t mean he’d consider it a video game franchise

I would wager that he would consider it video game more often than not. He developed his own virtual pet before.

 

[fogbadge]

I would wager that he would consider it video game more often than not. He developed his own virtual pet before.

its not about if he considers virtual pets as games but his perception of the whole franchise

 

[Twilord]

The argument of whether Digimon's origins as a male-targeted Tamagotchi would be classified as a video game to Sakurai.

One of his first, if not his very first, projects after leaving Nintendo was Sodatete! Mushiking. A combat V-Pet of the very type that Digimon founded.

Additionally it released during the time of the original Gameboy, which was arguably the first truly successful handheld that didn't suit the Game&Watch/V-Pet model.

Its also worth noting that V-Pets had some wild impacts on console games, leading to things like the Chao Garden. Also, gotta be honest, when I looked deeper into the timeline of V-Pets and compared it Pokémon - Jesus Christ Nintendo were definitely taking V-Pets seriously.

After Tamagotchi and Digimon were on the market - Pokémon made a V-Pet, added V-Pet elements to Yellow, and even... oh god I loathe to suggest this is an any way Tamagotchi or Digimon's fault, but its hard not to classify Hey You Pikachu as a part of the V-Pet craze. All of that before it even had its first PS1 or Wonderswan game.

It was this situation which lead Shigeru Miyamoto, one of Sakurai's peers, to suggest that Tamagotchi (which at the time was something of a 'catch all' for both franchises) in his GDC 1999 keynote speech. It really seems to suggest that it helped inspire the Wii/DS era; and to be fair given that one of the biggest selling game franchises of Nintendo as a direct result of that is Nintendogs. (The eleventh highest selling to be precise.)

And that is ignoring the influence it had on the Mon-Genre which is a whole other worthwhile topic.

And ignoring the existence of the Vitality Bracelet; a whole new take on Digimon's long-running approach to bespoke per-game portable hardware.


Sakurai LIVED through that history, and seems to LOVE to celebrate the wonderful and unique moments of gaming history


-------------------------

I cannot presume to know Sakurai's mind (none of us can); BUT its a challenge for me to look at all that information and presume he wouldn't view them as a very interesting and important moment in gaming history. Proving someone's perspective to any degree of certainty is kind of like trying to prove that Venus doesn't have a subterranean ocean of Barry's Tea Gold Blend though.

BUT I struggle to find stronger arguments to try to force a mitigation of my hype; so thank you.



EDIT: Mentioned this issue to someone and they just made a very good case for Tamagotchi being the one who could get the nod over Digimon. I'd probably still be pretty because part of why I want Agumon is because it might cause SEGA to remember the Chao Garden was a thing they made in response to this genre.

 

[XenothiumX]

Bandai Namco has a presentation lined up on the same day as the Nintendo direct. The character reveal could lead up to the Bamco Direct.

 

[Inferno7]

Which one do I want out of these? Lloyd since he's one of my MWs. Heihachi, KOS-MOS and Nightmare would be cool as heck too.

Which one I expect? Possibly Chosen Undead due to Dark Souls popularity and influence, with Lloyd being a close 2nd due to the circumstances.

I heavily expect one of the last two to be a Namco rep though, it just seems very odd at this point that we don't have another one and this pass has been doing a pretty good job at filling those base game ''gaps''.

 

[Perkilator]

We're talking about Yuri Lowell in RTC today.

 

[Commander_Alph]

We're talking about Yuri Lowell in RTC today.

There's some skepticism around Yuri, some still standing on their ground that if Tales gets a rep it have to be Lloyd because Sakurai said so while other say that he is the definitive front runner for the series if only Lloyd didn't get Mii'd. I don't really like someone bashing on a character's popularity literally determine by the fans itself and just throw that everything out the window.

 

[NB96]

So are you guys gonna be excited when Dark Souls comes to Smash?

 

[fogbadge]

So are you guys gonna be excited when Dark Souls comes to Smash?

no

 

[FarquadMoses]

Who better to Spirit battle than the Lord of Spirits?

 

[SharkLord]

Smash aside, I'm hoping we'll see something of that Klonoa Encore trademark tomorrow, be it in Nintendo's livestream of Bamco's. Just some final, official confirmation that it really is going to be a thing.

 

[fogbadge]

Who better to Spirit battle than the Lord of Spirits?

who?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well, good to see I was proven wrong on no Bamco character.

They actually came and went with the other obvious candidate for Tekken (which the poll in here completely failed to take into account, pfft).

 

[Commander_Alph]

I'm so happy.. Tekken was my ship back in the day, this brings me the same nostalgia as Steve and I'm glad

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Not the Namco character I was expecting but I'll take it. Another villain makes this a plus!

 

[Ornl]

Kazuya proves that the subject of a 2nd Banco rep was worth discussing over and over again for over 2 years. It proves that the company was worth supporting.

When Heihachi's costume came back at the start of the Fighter Pass 2 with Min-Min, it appears to have been done to purposely muddy the waters. Nintendo has built a repellent about Tekken. It deflected speculations.
Yes, Tekken was "unexpected".
Well done, the strategy charter has been respected
But at what cost ?

Since the arrival of Terry, then since the announcement of the second Fighter Pass shortly after, I was giving to Tekken a 100% chance. It was my one and only surest prediction, because it made sense to me. But, since the appearance of Mini-Min and the Heihachi Costume, I have just spent 1 year to:

• lower my estimate about Tekken,
• be witnes the enthusiasm and fervor about other icons of Bamco (for example, until the coming of Pyra/Mythra, there was a lot of spams about Kos-Mos in the DLC Speculation thread).

If it hadn't been for the Heihachi Costume, I think there would have been a greater supporting effect about Kazuya, and Tales might not have reaped the monopoly. Many people would probably also have gathered to wait for a new Bamco rep, and this thread would have reached 300 pages. The main discussions would have opposed Tekken against Tales, and I think they would have allowed for a broader unifying opinion about Tekken.

It didn't turn out like that because we were taken for a ride elsewhere by Nintendo. I like the ultimate choice of having take Kazuya, but I regret that the speculations were not more fun because of Heihachi Costume.

 

[Starlight Liger]

Kazuya is the first Super Smash Bros. Ultimate DLC character that I did not expect but makes too much sense in retrospect.

 

[DanganZilla5]

The thing is Tekken would have been brought up more often if it wasn't for that dam costume of Heihachi. They got us good. Otherwise I would have kept Tekken in mind because it is a pretty big series and definitely was E3 worthy.

 

[fogbadge]

i keep forgetting tekken exists

 

[ES. Dinah]

It's pretty crazy that we went all of last year thinking that Tekken was out of smash dlc only for Nintendo and Sakurai break the fact Mii costumes do not disconfirm with series. I dont think speculation is worth it anymore. All those KOS-MOS hopes I had was because Tekken was supposedly dead lol. Basically, I find speculation pointless because everything is just speculation and never pans out. I'm happy I got Pyra and Mythra since they were my 2nd most wanted but I NEED a KOS-MOS mii costume or people wont discuss her for next smash.

 

[Inferno7]

I pretty much dismissed Tekken as a real possibility due to the costume, but once again the madlad showcases how rules are meant to be broken.

In hindsight Tekken was the most reasonable choice, Tales of was a no-no to Nintendo given how niche it is when compared to the former (also 3 JRPGs in a row would've been overkill), and Dark Souls is too new, western-centric and under-requested to get added just like that.
Still glad my prediction turned out true and the fact we got a Bamco rep at all tbh, they are the only company you can confidently say ''deserved it''.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm super happy about Tekken... sincerely... but damned if I don't wish Agumon were in.
A perfect world for me would have Tekken, Digimon, and Soul Caliber all in Smash.

It's pretty crazy that we went all of last year thinking that Tekken was out of smash dlc only for Nintendo and Sakurai break the fact Mii costumes do not disconfirm with series. I dont think speculation is worth it anymore. All those KOS-MOS hopes I had was because Tekken was supposedly dead lol. Basically, I find speculation pointless because everything is just speculation and never pans out. I'm happy I got Pyra and Mythra since they were my 2nd most wanted but I NEED a KOS-MOS mii costume or people wont discuss her for next smash.

TBF... it is pretty ridiculous to listen to fan rules of what 'disconfirms' a character in the first place.
As if Chrom having three roles doesn't do that multiple times over.

To be fair your previous post matters if they're trying to invoke anime concepts; my assumption is one of Bandai Namco's goals for Digimon in Smash Bros would be pointing out that while they have had some great anime its fundamentally a game series, so people shouldn't assume their games are... how do I put this delicately... 'tie in quality'

Considering that majority of the Pokemon roster comes from the anime, I don't see how a popular anime would harm a character's inclusion.

its not about if he considers virtual pets as games but his perception of the whole franchise

His perceptions don't really matter when it comes to facts.
If we are willing to make claims like this, there is really no value in calling anything a fact.
We might as well just say Sakurai sees Dragonball as a video game.

I'm also hardpressed to see how someone who knows Digimon IS a game, could not see that the Digivice is the game device.

Kazuya proves that the subject of a 2nd Banco rep was worth discussing over and over again for over 2 years. It proves that the company was worth
If it hadn't been for the Heihachi Costume, I think there would have been a greater supporting effect about Kazuya, and Tales might not have reaped the monopoly. Many people would probably also have gathered to wait for a new Bamco rep, and this thread would have reached 300 pages. The main discussions would have opposed Tekken against Tales, and I think they would have allowed for a broader unifying opinion about Tekken.

It didn't turn out like that because we were taken for a ride elsewhere by Nintendo. I like the ultimate choice of having take Kazuya, but I regret that the speculations were not more fun because of Heihachi Costume.

To be fair, speculation can suck because of the mindset of much of the mainstream voice.

• Fan rule blah blah blah, constantly a new rule, constantly refuted, based almost on nothing
• Tales getting all the hype at all.... you can argue it was because of the costume (which if anything, would more likely prove it is not Tales, considering we kept getting the old costumes, and no third party costume was upgraded)... but also because Smash speculation overwhelmingly favors RPGs, and gives them dozens of passes that aren't afforded to any other category. Tales as a series selling less than Tekken... doesn't matter to most.

 

[Ornl]

To be fair, speculation can suck because of the mindset of much of the mainstream voice.
- Fan rule blah blah blah, constantly a new rule, constantly refuted, based almost on nothing

(IMO about all) Excluding Tekken wasn't a mistake from speculators or myself, but a trap created by Nintendo. Tekken was too obvious from the coming of Terry :

“There are two third-party fighting game series represented, but neither is Tekken even though Sakurai wanted to include Tekken in Sm4sh. Mmm… How could that be possible?”.

Nintendo therefore had to resort to trickery, deception, manipulation, feint. Speculation is a game for which Nintendo choosed that traps, low blows, are part of the rules. The result, the consequence, is that Nintendo killed the speculation, and therefore killed all the Newcomer Speculation Discussion on this forum. Something has been broken. It isn't fun to me.

 

[Twilord]

Nintendo therefore had to resort to trickery, deception, manipulation, feint. Speculation is a game for which Nintendo choosed that traps, low blows, are part of the rules. The result, the consequence, is that Nintendo killed the speculation, and therefore killed all theNewcomer Speculation Discussion on this forum. Something has been broken. It isn't fun to me.

Without meaning to be unkind to Nintendo, I do feel like they pulled a trick shot at the exact wrong time.

I mean Tekken getting it's rep made me feel "not crazy" because my speculation (which it seemed a lot of people thought was crazy) was a reaction to an absurd situation they created with their misdirect.

I mean it made sense that the second Bandai Namco rep would be ongoing in-house series (like Tekken), it made sense it would be something which changed gaming (like Tekken with eSports), and it made sense it wouldn't be Lloyd because they made him too obvious. But we had been given one thing that looked like a clue, sounded like a clue, and tasted like a clue BUT which turned out to be misdirect.

The only thing I feel we can even try to speculate now is if we might maybe get a bonus character based on the website weirdness. Anything else is inherently a huge reach. That does end any kind of rational speculation outside of "we probably aren't getting two versions of Toon Link that are based on Wind Waker".


That doesn't mean Kazuya was a bad pick - more than deserves to be here; it just means they handled him wrong if they wanted to create buzz around whoever comes next.

 

[pupNapoleon]

(IMO about all) Excluding Tekken wasn't a mistake from speculators or myself, but a trap created by Nintendo. Tekken was too obvious from the coming of Terry :

Nintendo therefore had to resort to trickery, deception, manipulation, feint. Speculation is a game for which Nintendo choosed that traps, low blows, are part of the rules. The result, the consequence, is that Nintendo killed the speculation, and therefore killed all theNewcomer Speculation Discussion on this forum. Something has been broken. It isn't fun to me.

Or, Heihachi as a costume didn't mean anything... which (and this isn't a retrospective statement), was a ridiculous fan rule to begin with, anyway.
"We cannot have spirits" (which never made sense), "characters need one purpose" (yet Chrom wasn't even removed from another character's final smash, much less as a costume), on and on and on... I don't even think Heihachi was off the table just because of the costume, though that would at least have had an argument for being shady.

Nintendo didn't do anything, speculation is just exceptionally self aggrandizing. I really don't think there is anyone to blame here except for the individuals, using Nintendo as a scape goat because they feel tricked by their own foolishness. The bottom line is that fans made an assumption based on unstated rules- ran with those assumptions- and now place the blame for that assumption on an outside source, rather than just owning up to the fact that they set expectations that were never stated.

(and then there are the others in another camp, who felt entitled to Lloyd because RPGs get prioritization.... but that is another conversation entirely).

 

[Twilord]

Or, Heihachi as a costume didn't mean anything... which (and this isn't a retrospective statement), was a ridiculous fan rule to begin with, anyway.
"We cannot have spirits" (which never made sense), "characters need one purpose" (yet Chrom wasn't even removed from another character's final smash, much less as a costume), on and on and on... I don't even think Heihachi was off the table just because of the costume, though that would at least have had an argument for being shady.

Nintendo didn't do anything, speculation is just exceptionally self aggrandizing. I really don't think there is anyone to blame here except for the individuals, using Nintendo as a scape goat because they feel tricked by their own foolishness. The bottom line is that fans made an assumption based on unstated rules- ran with those assumptions- and now place the blame for that assumption on an outside source, rather than just owning up to the fact that they set expectations that were never stated.

(and then there are the others in another camp, who felt entitled to Lloyd because RPGs get prioritization.... but that is another conversation entirely).

If nothing can possibly discount a franchise, not even having other content from it sold separately IN THE SAME DLC SEASON before their reveal then there is nothing to speculate based off.

At this point it's equally valid to predict "Other Toon Link" from Minish Cap as it is to predict "Crash Bandicoot". Without any meaningful rhyme or reason to work off of speculation is nothing more than restating and recycling wishlists and wondering if the leaker who swore blind it was one of three popular wild guesses was right this time.

Nintendo invalidated one of the very few seeming leads we thought we had at the second last spot. If this is how we read the situation what point can there possibly be in continuing to speculate. That is a perfectly valid read on the situation and people don't have to force themselves to feel otherwise.

 

[Ornl]

(and then there are the others in another camp, who felt entitled to Lloyd because RPGs get prioritization.... but that is another conversation entirely).

Il you attack the fan rules, so yes you shouldn't be talking about the Tekken/Tales rivalry because that might support another fan rule which is: "only 1 rep per company in 1 Fighter Pass".

What I say next is meant to express why and how Nintendo needed to build a "repell" against speculation.

WHY
• Fact: About DLC, Nintendo's charter is that newcomers should be unexpected, unique and different. This was said without further details.
• Interpretation: Nintendo needs newcomers to be unexpected.
• Obstacle: The coming of Terry then the revelation of the coming of a FP2 put Tekken in the spotlight as an expected series (rivalry with Tales doesn't matter).

HOW
• Facts: The Persona Costumes came with the Persona Fighter. This type of configuration has also been done about Dragon Quest, SNK, Minecraft and FF. The first time the Heihachi Costume was given, it accompanied Ryu, a fighting game rep. This time, Heihachi accompanied Min-Min, another fighting game rep and the first character of FP2.
• Effects: A certain conditioning accustoms the fans to a certain consistency. The reveal of the Costume packs has always been a big event, conventionally known to both honor series and kill their chances within a Fighter Pass.
• Facts: Nintendo deliberately chose not to give the Heihachi Costume with the Tekken Fighter. Nintendo deliberately chose to separate two characters who are father and son.
• Effects: Nintendo sacrificed one important part of the "Tekken for Ultimate" support, then the "speculation game" about the last newcomer.

I am not emotionally affected (anger, disappointment...) and I respect and understand Nintendo's choices. This allows me not to feel attacked by your words: "ridiculous" and "tricked by their own foolishness". I just regret that I didn't read or share discussions and fun with Tekken fans during the past twelve months. I would have liked to do that (I voted for Heihachi in the poll of this thread), "Tekken for Ultimate" support which could have been fun for me.

 

[pupNapoleon]

If nothing can possibly discount a franchise, not even having other content from it sold separately IN THE SAME DLC SEASON before their reveal then there is nothing to speculate based off.

At this point it's equally valid to predict "Other Toon Link" from Minish Cap as it is to predict "Crash Bandicoot". Without any meaningful rhyme or reason to work off of speculation is nothing more than restating and recycling wishlists and wondering if the leaker who swore blind it was one of three popular wild guesses was right this time.

Nintendo invalidated one of the very few seeming leads we thought we had at the second last spot. If this is how we read the situation what point can there possibly be in continuing to speculate. That is a perfectly valid read on the situation and people don't have to force themselves to feel otherwise.

Bro..you made an assumption, and now you aren't taking responsibility. If you cannot acknowledge the role you played in this, then you're right, there isn't a discussion.
Nintendo obviously did not invalidate a character, because that character got in. They didn't contradict one action with another- you read into one action, and decided it meant something, where it didn't, and now are pointing a finger.

Il you attack the fan rules, so yes you shouldn't be talking about the Tekken/Tales rivalry because that might support another fan rule which is: "only 1 rep per company in 1 Fighter Pass".

What I say next is meant to express why and how Nintendo needed to build a "repell" against speculation.

WHY
• Fact: About DLC, Nintendo's charter is that newcomers should be unexpected, unique and different. This was said without further details.
• Interpretation: Nintendo needs newcomers to be unexpected.
• Obstacle: The coming of Terry then the revelation of the coming of a FP2 put Tekken in the spotlight as an expected series (rivalry with Tales doesn't matter).

HOW
• Facts: The Persona Costumes came with the Persona Fighter. This type of configuration has also been done about Dragon Quest, SNK, Minecraft and FF. The first time the Heihachi Costume was given, it accompanied Ryu, a fighting game rep. This time, Heihachi accompanied Min-Min, another fighting game rep and the first character of FP2.
• Effects: A certain conditioning accustoms the fans to a certain consistency. The reveal of the Costume packs has always been a big event, conventionally known to both honor series and kill their chances within a Fighter Pass.
• Facts: Nintendo deliberately chose not to give the Heihachi Costume with the Tekken Fighter. Nintendo deliberately chose to separate two characters who are father and son.
• Effects: Nintendo sacrificed one important part of the "Tekken for Ultimate" support, then the "speculation game" about the last newcomer.

I am not emotionally affected (anger, disappointment...) and I respect and understand Nintendo's choices. This allows me not to feel attacked by your words: "ridiculous" and "tricked by their own foolishness". I just regret that I didn't read or share discussions and fun with Tekken fans during the past twelve months. I would have liked to do that (I voted for Heihachi in the poll of this thread), "Tekken for Ultimate" support which could have been fun for me.

This, actually- I greatly appreciate. I can play off of this.
To start, I acknowledge, I am a HUGE Tekken and FGC fan. Of course it is just my experience, but I never considered Tekken out of the running, because we were never told a Mii costume did such, and have continually had our own theories squashed.
As far as conditioning, though, at this point we should be conditioned not to think that our trails of assumptions lead anywhere. We were conditioned into getting many third parties- and then we got, not just a first party, but a non-new universe...another Fire Emblem.

I still find it, honestly, yes, ridiculous, that because things have been one way, they are expected to be that way. These fighters passes have been known, outwardly by all (yes, I'm going to the extreme of saying all, but it is a hyperbole), to continually break rules.
Joker- Not on a Nintendo System
Sephiroth- Not one character per third party series
Min Min- Spirits mean squat
Banjo and Kazooie- western companies cannot get a character
Byleth- Nintendo doesn't give a **** (jk... really, that previous franchises can still get love, even from Nintendo)
Pythra- that DLC Mii's don't disqualify that same series.

There is no equation to solve when it comes to DLC, we aren't going to get all the pieces, and we continually, for almost each new character, have had to re-embrace the idea that the general fan consensus is a fallacy to what is coming next. The ultimate conditioning we have experienced is that these superfluous details that we think give away what is coming next, don't actually mean that much. There is nothing unique about Kazuya versus all of those examples above.

Maybe this is finally a time for those who are listening to unstated rules to sit down and actually evaluate,"is this legitimate, or is it a voice in an echo chamber that is now solidified in my head?" Here are some other things that are just theory, were never stated by Nintendo, but seem to be an assumption:
1- Assist Trophies cannot become characters
2- Only one DLC character per company per pass
3- Only one DLC character per franchise per DLC period

Things we have directly been told (among others)
1- We aren't getting echoes as any of these places
2- The character needs to originate from a video game
3- The character must be fun to play (which is subjective anyway)

I understand it can feel awfully to feel tricked, and for those feelings, I am sorry that any of this community had to experience it. Yet, I do not blame Nintendo. This actually reminds me of that thread where the guy blindly bought the DLC pass, and then was upset that it wasn't catered to him. It isn't a direct parallel, but it has many similarities.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

Min Min- Spirits mean squat

BASE GAME spirits*

We even have precedent for missing spirit events leading up to character reveals. For example, why have a Crash Bandicoot spirit event and then reveal him as a fighter a week later?

 

[pupNapoleon]

BASE GAME spirits*

We even have precedent for missing spirit events leading up to character reveals. For example, why have a Crash Bandicoot spirit event and then reveal him as a fighter a week later?

At the time, it was that Spirits wouldn't be 'upgraded.' It only advanced to 'base game spirits' once we met the ever-moving goalpost of assumptions towards what makes a character ineligible.

I don't see a legitimately real reason not to have a spirit event of a series that will be added the same pass.
This is particularly true if the character reveal is coming later (considering those seemed to be based in having a rhythm of reveals, and for marketing value), but the spirit is more relevant early on.