The Ganons of today.

[Renth]

The Platform game has it's ups and downs, when it comes to players who aren't use to a high speed aggressive Ganon you can typically gain an advantage in a match from simple mix ups.


Obvious examples such as:

- Wavelanding on to a platform sliding across then jumping back on it with an aerial.

- Massive mobility moving around then slipping attacks in when you feel the enemy is vulnerable or unsuspecting.

- The Forward B trick on battlefield by using forward b off the top platform then canceling on the lower ledge (enemy see's you in the free fall animation, try to take advantage and you *try* to punish with the cancel)

- Jumping off a stage with a f air then back on with a fair.

The list goes on and on.

The down side.

I believe too many players are trying to push this beyond it's limitation, how often do you see a player all over the platforms just to throw out a random hay maker and get punished to high hell for it? More often than it connects if your opponent catches on to you. More players, myself especially. Need to slow down their game keep to the basics from spacing to edge guarding and use their mobility as a surprise factor rather than trying to keep that pace an entire match.

The Flash Factor: Wanting to go to that level where everything you do makes you look like the coolest mofo ever. I fear this is the down fall of many Ganon players.

Look at the difference between the play styles of say I'd compare myself and spider sense vs. the styles of Kage, Linguini or RockCrock

Kage: A player I harassed for being a passive player for not using the flash style we started to embrace, perhaps he had it right in the first place.

Linguini: A very laid back player, often waits for good a opportunity before approaching often will wait for the opponent to attack before choosing what to do. (he likes to camp)

RockCrock: A spot on for what I am trying to say, He is a very smart player who I know for a fact can do everything I can and probably more with the platform game. You do not see him all over the place. He watches, reads and plays smart.


All of the fancy tricks made me forget a lot of the basics. Maybe all of this noise only applies to myself, this is just an observation from years of playing.

 

[-ACE-]

Well said. I agree and have thought about this myself for quite some time. I guess I never really took serious action on it since being flashy is so much fun, which is probably my downfall as well.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Mark has been booooored.

But this is a good thread c:

 

[warlock-don-mia24]

this thread is sweet ganon mains should read this alot thats trying to get better like myself cuz i have problems im trying to fix

 

[spider_sense]

lol I totally agree, I've actually toned down my play style quite a bit and try to use the tech skills when I absolutely need to. Honestly, way too much mobility has cost me alot of matches; rather me just sit back and relaxing. BUT some mobility does apply it's solid mix of pressure but it's to be used sparingly. Everything with Ganon is pretty much a wait and bait game. I usually try to create walls and put up illusions to keep my opponents guessing. That's just me though. I've tried to create a mixture of Tipman/Linguini...something effective, yet spontaneous at the same time. I personally think Ganon mains of today don't know their options vs another character during a said situation. I'll look at alot of Ganons throwing out an empty fair hoping it'll hit, or just stand there in their shields. (Ex: When a Marth double fairs, most Ganon stay in their shield and then decide to come out during the 2nd fair, only to get hit; when you they could have just blocked the first fair and uair oos before the second comes out) Sometimes mobility is key as well as prominent execution. However, waiting for situations to arise isn't that bad either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcUPwv4CkIo&feature=related

Side note: Ganon video thread gets updated today.

 

[A2ZOMG]

IMO, it's essential to KNOW how to use all of Ganon's tech tricks since individually, they are options that can be used to address specific problems in Ganon's game. It's also even more important to save those tricks for when you actually need them so that you don't let a smart opponent catch onto all your playstyle quirks at once.

Granted, I know that my own playstyle could be more technical, but the real value in being technical with Ganon usually comes through its surprise factor. If your opponent isn't surprised, then generally being "flashy" is pointless.

 

[spider_sense]

IMO, it's essential to KNOW how to use all of Ganon's tech tricks since individually, they are options that can be used to address specific problems in Ganon's game. It's also even more important to save those tricks for when you actually need them so that you don't let a smart opponent catch onto all your playstyle quirks at once.

Granted, I know that my own playstyle could be more technical, but the real value in being technical with Ganon usually comes through its surprise factor. If your opponent isn't surprised, then generally being "flashy" is pointless.

I agree! You guys need to put some vids up, regardless of what's being said people generally get better as they play.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya, in the end it's all about making the right moves at the right times.. and recognizing those moments. It's hella hard. To do what's good all the time.. ugh. lol.

 

[warlock-don-mia24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Omp9Xx5J0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUyWi-29r-g
i put these matches in the Q&A threads to get some advice here they r

 

[Renth]

I'll look at alot of Ganons throwing out an empty fair hoping it'll hit, or just stand there in their shields. (Ex: When a Marth double fairs, most Ganon stay in their shield and then decide to come out during the 2nd fair, only to get hit; when you they could have just blocked the first fair and uair oos before the second comes out.

This is EXACTLY what i'm talking about.

 

[Divinokage]

Renth you said that I had a basic style.. but then I did incorporate some of the useful techniques that you guys showed me and it paid off well. (I'm grateful) But at the same time, I still keep it simple even now because there's no need to do things without a purpose or just to look cool lol.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah. only techskill i really need is full horizontal wavelands off of platforms into aerials, and full wavelands off of a short hop (both kinds, both directions). oh, and ledgedashing.

real spacing is much harder, and much more useful.

thanks for this thread. it's things of this sort that i really need to think about and apply before heading off to pound.

 

[-ACE-]

Renth you said that I had a basic style.. but then I did incorporate some of the useful techniques that you guys showed me and it paid off well. (I'm grateful) But at the same time, I still keep it simple even now because there's no need to do things without a purpose or just to look cool lol.

Yep, I think its helped you out quite a bit. I'm a big fan of your current playstyle.

One thing I'd like to see more ganon's do is dj to waveland on the low platforms on DL64 instead of single jump, its much faster. It may even be faster on the low platforms on bf, ps, and ys but I'm not sure. It's really close. I also think its useful for wavelanding on the platform when you're in a bind (like in hitstun/shieldstun) since you can pretty much spam X and just hit R right after the dj and perfect (or shortened) waveland with ease. Works for me anyway.

Also I found out that not just reverse jab (we all already know that) but also reverse ftilt works great on phantasm/illusion the other day, kinda like how lucky/alex19 used it in that rapex2 combo vid. It's practical if they are coming at you at near waist height and you don't have quite enough time to pivot and ftilt (more distance between your hitbox and the phantasm = more time to react).

Obviously very situational **** and not extremely helpful but from now on I'm going to share more little things like that because like tipman said recently we need to start thinking outside the box and be more innovative.

 

[Bamesy]

Like this thread. For the tiny discription of platform spam to the idea that you don't need it to do what Ganon needs to do.
I just picked up Ganon last night, at first I was trying really hard to do things like WDs into jabs and ftilts and find how to be effective with that, then moved on to see how effective a DJ WL was after conditionning the opponent that I could aerial freakin hard when I jumped. Then with platforms there were a lot of options too. That's the stuff I ALWAYS see with Ganons, bad ones and good ones. It's fun, when you figured it out, it's fancy and most of all, it WORKS!
But that's ALL I can really see. The ground game is lacking and the semiaggro style from it isn't going to cover up the holes being this slow really leaves.

I've really started to find a new way to enjoy playing him. Not by 'Reading Opponents' but by 'Not Being Read' as THAT IS WHERE THE HOLES ARE. If you can find their holes, sure, but most good players can cover them up. If you can make it seem like you're leaving holes, sure, but they have to take that bait.
There are VERY VERY VERY FEW options Ganon has. In terms of how to maneuver in battle.
THIS is his flaw and his best weapon, at least it's what I feel like when playing him.
His options cover a lot, Fair>Jab covers so much. It can be mixed with jumps, WLs, ftilt, grab, Uair, whatever. But they ALL have holes. So doing something DIFFERENT EVERY SINGLE TIME I do ANYTHING, seems to be the only way to really 'cover' the holes. As the holes will ALWAYS be different, and it's no longer a READING game, but a GUESSING game entirely.
Trading guesses with something that hits harder is never good. Ganon hits hardest.

My thoughts.
PS: I really think Dash Attack and WD OOS are underlooked as options. Everything you do has a flaw anyway, DA is a great change and covers great ground area that lacks from his game completely, and WD OOS is clunky, but so much safer then covering THAT hole with something that HAS holes.

PPS: Bair makes him work. Of everything Ganon has, Fair>Jab or Empty Jump>Grab...Bair is the link between it all that seems to make it work.

Day 1: My Ganon trials LOL

 

[Divinokage]

Like this thread. For the tiny discription of platform spam to the idea that you don't need it to do what Ganon needs to do.
I just picked up Ganon last night, at first I was trying really hard to do things like WDs into jabs and ftilts and find how to be effective with that, then moved on to see how effective a DJ WL was after conditionning the opponent that I could aerial freakin hard when I jumped. Then with platforms there were a lot of options too. That's the stuff I ALWAYS see with Ganons, bad ones and good ones. It's fun, when you figured it out, it's fancy and most of all, it WORKS!
But that's ALL I can really see. The ground game is lacking and the semiaggro style from it isn't going to cover up the holes being this slow really leaves.

I've really started to find a new way to enjoy playing him. Not by 'Reading Opponents' but by 'Not Being Read' as THAT IS WHERE THE HOLES ARE. If you can find their holes, sure, but most good players can cover them up. If you can make it seem like you're leaving holes, sure, but they have to take that bait.
There are VERY VERY VERY FEW options Ganon has. In terms of how to maneuver in battle.
THIS is his flaw and his best weapon, at least it's what I feel like when playing him.
His options cover a lot, Fair>Jab covers so much. It can be mixed with jumps, WLs, ftilt, grab, Uair, whatever. But they ALL have holes. So doing something DIFFERENT EVERY SINGLE TIME I do ANYTHING, seems to be the only way to really 'cover' the holes. As the holes will ALWAYS be different, and it's no longer a READING game, but a GUESSING game entirely.
Trading guesses with something that hits harder is never good. Ganon hits hardest.

My thoughts.
PS: I really think Dash Attack and WD OOS are underlooked as options. Everything you do has a flaw anyway, DA is a great change and covers great ground area that lacks from his game completely, and WD OOS is clunky, but so much safer then covering THAT hole with something that HAS holes.

PPS: Bair makes him work. Of everything Ganon has, Fair>Jab or Empty Jump>Grab...Bair is the link between it all that seems to make it work.

Day 1: My Ganon trials LOL

The only way I could use dash attack, is after a jab since it combos.. or reading a Peach dash attack and doing my own since Ganon's dash attack out prioritizes Peach's dash attack but you really have to read the Peach on reaction, if not it's not safe. Other than that, I haven't seen much use of it.. and I did enough trial with it to be pretty sure of most options. All I know it's that it has a lot of priority on the ground but you have to use it as a counter attack. WD OOS is not underlooked, it's already been used to it's full potential.

And then the rest of the stuff I have no idea what you said.

 

[Bamesy]

lol cool and yes!

I still think people try aerials OOS too much. All characters and playesr though. LOL
WD is so broke. :D
I like dash attacking people after wavelands on the ground, things like that. IT GOES SOOOO FAR WTF :O
It's just my thoughts on my first day of Ganonage. Nothing much really.

 

[Divinokage]

lol cool and yes!

I still think people try aerials OOS too much. All characters and playesr though. LOL
WD is so broke. :D
I like dash attacking people after wavelands on the ground, things like that. IT GOES SOOOO FAR WTF :O
It's just my thoughts on my first day of Ganonage. Nothing much really.

It depends on the situation, to me it's never the same. Aerial OOS could be a good option at a given time just like anything else.

1. It depends of style
2. It depends on what's happening.

 

[Bamesy]

Exactly.
Aerial OOS is too often the used option as far as I can see.
People get punished for that more than anything at a high level it seems. Makes sense though, it's beast when it works. WD OOS is just safe.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

with ganons slow jump oos though, and with his wavedash not being particularly far, a retreating uair oos is often quite useful.

if we played like...spacies or luigi or someone with a greater wavedash/jump speed, then just a wavedash would suffice more often, i guess.

 

[Bamesy]

Do WLs go any further than WDs?

 

[-ACE-]

Do WLs go any further than WDs?

No. but, a perfect waveland (control stick held horizontal) is longer than a perfect wavedash (control stick held slightly below horizontal).

 

[kupo15]

DA has its uses. If its not for the obvious surprise I can hit you from here or the I can't hit you with anything but this move, it can be effective as a reverse edgeguarding tool. Ex if you are on the ledge and the spacie side b's above you you can ledge hop dash attack them back off the stage without a jump facing the wrong way.

Or in combo I found that it could be worth looking into Dair>reverse DA aerial

If you want to talk about DI guesses, Dthrow>DA, side b>DA both being polar opposite trajectories. haha

 

[Bamesy]

Ganon is slow...
but his WL from the edge is HUGE o.O
I like WL DA, makes for a LOT of distance covered.


I think ftilt is my favorite move with him right now.
Pivot ftilt to be exact. :D

 

[ShinerCCC]

Bamesy, Daltsy recently told me about the amazing wisdom of WD OoS but I can't get anything good out of it with Ganon because the spacing just doesn't work out. It's too slow and the wavedash doesn't go far enough; there's also no invincibility frames, which is why I see more Ganons just roll out of shield instead because Ganon's roll is actually good.

Although once in a while I do WD OoS in place and then jab. It's the closest thing Ganon has to "jab out of shield" because it's faster than the "put your shield away" animation. WD OoS backwards -> ftilt might work, particularly if a Falcon tries to SH knee after you.

also I should learn Pika so I can raep ur scrubby ganon

 

[Bamesy]

Yeah Ganon has a slow crappy WD OOS, but it's better than aerialling OOS hopelessly or rolling with hopes they don't punish it.

You might not get anything from it, but WD OOS can at least bring you to a mildly neutral position and won't get punished hard, if at all.
You can always roll/aerial AFTER too. WD OOS means you can do ANYTHING afterwards. It's only a WD amount of lag to punish, roll can be hurtful and aerials are easy to bait when Ganon can't do much else for gtfo/OOS options. Though you have to find the place to do it through the pressure etc.

It applies to most characters but...
Neutral>Committing...especially to something that you're limited already to by means of shielding...

You the Jugmaster or the Dazy or who? :O
Pika vs Ganon MMs both sides of the match up? Would be fun!
Tell Daltsy he's cute and Okanagan misses your island. <3

 

[spider_sense]

Yeah Ganon has a slow crappy WD OOS, but it's better than aerialling OOS hopelessly or rolling with hopes they don't punish it.

You might not get anything from it, but WD OOS can at least bring you to a mildly neutral position and won't get punished hard, if at all.
You can always roll/aerial AFTER too. WD OOS means you can do ANYTHING afterwards. It's only a WD amount of lag to punish, roll can be hurtful and aerials are easy to bait when Ganon can't do much else for gtfo/OOS options. Though you have to find the place to do it through the pressure etc.

It applies to most characters but...
Neutral>Committing...especially to something that you're limited already to by means of shielding...

You the Jugmaster or the Dazy or who? :O
Pika vs Ganon MMs both sides of the match up? Would be fun!
Tell Daltsy he's cute and Okanagan misses your island. <3

I gotta agree with this post; Ganon definitely can get himself out of pressured situation just by wavedashing OOS. Pending on how immense the pressure is he can just run away and bair to keep the retreat somewhat safe. It may not by 100% guaranteed but it does provide some type of solution. Btw the video archives is up. Check it Ganon peeps. :D

 

[Linguini]

Good **** renth, having gone through that transition from a flashy mobile style to a laid back reactionary style I can say it's leagues more effective.

As has already been stated in this thread, any technique or technical strat can be used in specific situations, so it is definitely necessary to learn and/or memorize them as a serious ganon player. This is one of the reasons tipman was so tricky to fight, he always had something up his sleeve to counter you, be it technical or simple.

That being said I have seen many ganon players overusing their platform games. When you are overly reliant on platforms it makes it that much easier for your opponent to read you. Incorporate ganon's sick ground game and you will immediately have better results.

Ace I usually mix up my wavelands on the lower platforms of DL64/battlefield using the full jump and dj because they're height is good for both. On PS and yoshi's I def. agree that dj is pretty fast due to the lower height but I still like to implement the full jump in certain situations. I'm talking about wavelands into aerials though. Wavelanding for positioning is another story of course. Kage's right jab to dash attack or vice versa is a good psuedo combo that puts on an easy 20ish % lol

 

[Divinokage]

I like adding in a backair after the jab + Dash attack so it's like *tish, tish, tish* lol.

 

[Renth]

Pound 5 Ganon team dittos gentlemen? team ganon vs. team ganon get some sick ****. (friendlies/seriouslys/MMS?)

it'd be a nice way for us to discuss things and have mad fun in the process.

 

[Bamesy]

LOL tish tish tish

Can someone link me a vid, whether it's a match or a compilation or something, of a bunch of Ganon platform spammy tricks. All I have to go by is what little memory I have of people doing things and screwing around myself. I'm sure there's a lot more vids of peeps would have to offer considering soooo much work has gone into it.

I've imediately adapted a calm, semicamping style with him, that's for sure.

When I was playing a Doc the first match he was mocking me like...
"James has to be more defensive when he's Ganon"
and...
"it feels weird being faster than poor slow James"
I was like "yeah...**** my life"
lol

 

[Divinokage]

Pound 5 Ganon team dittos gentlemen? team ganon vs. team ganon get some sick ****. (friendlies/seriouslys/MMS?)

it'd be a nice way for us to discuss things and have mad fun in the process.

If we can have everyone together, sure.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i would like in on this quad ganon pound 5 action.

edit: also i'm working on my ground game. i've just realized how good the platform game is, and now i'm overusing it. now i need to tone it down a little.

 

[Juushichi]

Hi, I'm a new Ganon just getting into Melee's competitive scene... But I know I also have probably been WLing on platforms a bit too much too.

I've got a quick question. How good is Warlock(Wiz) kick when used to punish some DD's, techs or things like Peach's low float at moderate %'s?

 

[spider_sense]

Hi, I'm a new Ganon just getting into Melee's competitive scene... But I know I also have probably been WLing on platforms a bit too much too.

I've got a quick question. How good is Warlock(Wiz) kick when used to punish some DD's, techs or things like Peach's low float at moderate %'s?

Tbh I think it's very hard to Wizard's foot Peach at any percent (maybe very low) because she's simply too floaty and react with a nair. Just stick with the traditional follow-up grabs to dthrow. Watch and react to their DI accordingly. (I.E DI behind = bair, DI in front = Fair, etc) If you're not sure where they're going to DI, play it safe and uair. You may not get the results you want, but you at least get the punish.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i think the kick goes faster than the float, but if she's far away, she can just float away and punish. if she's close, as jason said, she can probably react with a nair.

sometimes i try to punish DD's with the boot, but you're going to want to stay away from that, because most characters run speed is actually the same as ganon's kick, so if they're dashdancing and paying attention to you, they'll see the kick and run away, and punish once it's over. but if you start the kick as they're coming at you, and they don't react in time, it has the potential to set up an edgeguard or something else useful. use very sparingly though, and make sure you don't fly off the edge.

 

[Renth]

I'd prefer all questions be redirected to Linguinis Q&A thread about specifics, this thread has a purpose to discuss the small pieces of meta game we forget along the way. Rather than incorporating we become naive pushing things to a limit that doesn't benefit us as players. Sit back relax, take in some study time watch videos of each other do not be afraid to give your words of encouragement or words of tough love. Constructive advice whether it be harsh or not can make a difference.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You guys should check out Voodoo. He's the best Ganon in MD/VA. (He's a Falco main, but his Ganon is ****)

 

[spider_sense]

You guys should check out Voodoo. He's the best Ganon in MD/VA. (He's a Falco main, but his Ganon is ****)

I've think I've seen some of his vids. But I'll check him out when I get the chance. Anyways, side-b (Mountain side of Pkmn Stadium) on the left side of the ledge where it separates the the level really is good for tricking people into thinking you're vulnerable. (I remember Tipman doing it to DJ Nintendo, after that he uair to down-b)

 

[Ace55]

Nice thread Renth, I totally see myself doing this ****. WL'ing for the sake of WL'ing instead of using it at the right time. Getting on the side platforms against marth when there is no good reason to do so. Dumb **** like that.

I'm gonna post a couple of recent (this weekend) tourney sets in Q&A, hope you guys can give me some pointers.

 

[IYM!]

Ganon is so good in melee, i love kill with him, but, peach give me trouble

any council?