Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[_Magus_]

No problem. Only thing is now we have two AT discussion threads up there. Far as I can tell, Zig and Kalm's AT threads are pretty similar, with the only exception being that Kalm's has a well-organized OP with all the info. What I might ask is that everyone take the discussion to Kalm's thread unless I'm missing something and they serve a different purpose that I missed, which is entirely possible.

Also, the vids from the tournament I went to might finally be up soon. Still waiting on the results thread though.

Z1G's thread is less about actual ATs and more about little tricksies and discoveries. Honestly, I learn a lot more from it than any other thread, and if it's stickied, maybe people will post their little discoveries there instead of making a whole thread about them. There are some things that are just too small for a whole thread, and clutter the boards. This could help avert that.

Edit: Kalm's thread is about solid ATs. Techniques that are not too character specific and have some broad use. Z1G's thread is more like M2K's tidbits he shares every now and then. They may not be too broad or anything, but learn enough of them, and they'll become tiles in your Smash Mosaic. These tidbits are the best way to piece together one's playstyle after one has mastered the fundamentals.

 

[Naroghin]

I would say that characterizes the difference in each thread's given purposes quite well.

 

[_Magus_]

People are starting to realize that this Ganondorf is not Brawl Dorf.

A Ganondorf player came on TKBreezy's stream last night, and he was like, "Oh ****! A Ganon?" The Ganondorf proceeded to mop the floor of Smashville with his Wii Fit Trainer. During and after the match, TKBreezy was talking about how Ganondorf is actually good now, and "People be sleepin on Ganondorf, yo. This is NOT a bad character."

It's nice for our character to finally get some recognition, especially from a well-known commentator. Most commentators don't even know about any of the buffs Ganondorf has received. They just assume he's exactly like brawl Ganondorf, and rag on him as such. They probably just need a good Dorf bodying as a wake up call.

 

[Vermanubis]

Ganon's found himself in an awkward situation in Smash 4, hasn't he? There are the people who think he's Brawldorf, and then the people who believe he's much better than he really is. He's definitely considerably better than he was in Brawl, but he still suffers against people who know the MU well. Once people figure out the proper movement patterns against him, that's when he has to work his big purple ass off to do work.

Overall I agree though. He's still a very disadvantaged character, but very worthy of respect on all fronts.

 

[the king of murder]

That is why it is better for us when people believe he is still Brawl level bad, so they believe they don't need to learn the MU.

Like Sun Tzu would say:" Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak". The art of war.

 

[Vermanubis]

Haha, very topical! Well said.

I guess what I said would be better stated, such that in contrast to Brawl, MU ignorance is not the sole virtue by which Ganon wins anymore. It's a reasonably large boon -- MU ignorance, that is -- but no longer a necessity as it was in some MUs in Brawl. There are a few things which make this so, but preeminent of which is the fact that you actually have to FIGHT Smash 4 Ganon, since he's no longer so easily exploitable.

 

[_Magus_]

I definitely agree. If one of the Smash commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Sleep on the Kid (Mang0)," another would be "Thou Shalt Not Sleep on the King, Lest His Boot Make Quick and Intimate Acquaintance with Your Face."

Haha, very topical! Well said.

I guess what I said would be better stated, such that in contrast to Brawl, MU ignorance is not the sole virtue by which Ganon wins anymore. It's a reasonably large boon -- MU ignorance, that is -- but no longer a necessity as it was in some MUs in Brawl. There are a few things which make this so, but preeminent of which is the fact that you actually have to FIGHT Smash 4 Ganon, since he's no longer so easily exploitable.

And when they attack, they leave themselves open for our reads

 

[the king of murder]

You are right Verm, we can do better than to rely on MU inexperience now. As silly as it sounds, I tried applying Sun Tzu tactics into my Ganon style because I feel like my Ganon is not improving much anymore, so I have to work on something else. So I work on my strategies now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That is why it is better for us when people believe he is still Brawl level bad, so they believe they don't need to learn the MU.

Like Sun Tzu would say:" Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak". The art of war.

Personally me, I actually wish people would learn the matchup for two reasons.

Ganondorf is a character that imo is much harder to really meaningfully improve with than most others when you lack good competition (or examples to work with, as I have learned quite a lot from other good players).

We KNOW Ganondorf still could use some buffs even though he's overall in a pretty good spot. However, I don't believe it's very obvious to most people outside of Ganon mains what Ganondorf actually needs most for the sake of balance.

 

[_Magus_]

Personally me, I actually wish people would learn the matchup for two reasons.

Ganondorf is a character that imo is much harder to really meaningfully improve with than most others when you lack good competition (or examples to work with, as I have learned quite a lot from other good players).

We KNOW Ganondorf still could use some buffs even though he's overall in a pretty good spot. However, I don't believe it's very obvious to most people outside of Ganon mains what Ganondorf actually needs most for the sake of balance.

This so much. I have a hard time improving without someone knowing what they're doing. A bad player won't even recognize bait, so mindgames are almost pointless.

 

[the king of murder]

I 100% agree with you @ A2ZOMG battling someone who knows the MU opens ones eyes really fast.

Btw, @ _Magus_ where can I watch the stream?

 

[_Magus_]

I 100% agree with you @ A2ZOMG battling someone who knows the MU opens ones eyes really fast.

Btw, @ _Magus_ where can I watch the stream?

TKBreezy's?

 

[the king of murder]

TKBreezy's?

Yup, that one.

 

[_Magus_]

Yup, that one.

http://www.twitch.tv/TKBreezy
Edit: He's hosting Logic right now, so it takes you to logic's stream too.

 

[Vermanubis]

Personally me, I actually wish people would learn the matchup for two reasons.

Ganondorf is a character that imo is much harder to really meaningfully improve with than most others when you lack good competition (or examples to work with, as I have learned quite a lot from other good players).

We KNOW Ganondorf still could use some buffs even though he's overall in a pretty good spot. However, I don't believe it's very obvious to most people outside of Ganon mains what Ganondorf actually needs most for the sake of balance.

Absolutely. It's healthy for any Ganon main to become acquainted with his weaknesses -- aside from the obvious ones like recovery and lack of OoS options. Pattern recognition and an encyclopedic knowledge of your opponent's options at any given point are what a successful Ganon needs, and he'll never get that knowledge if his own opponent doesn't have it.

 

[Opana]

I actually go out of my way to tell people my issues and/or hard to recognize patterns for that very reason, it is very valuable practice. I also tell them what I punish most to force me to mix up.

A good training method I use aside from that is heading into battle without the use of an action orbutton the entirety of the match. This allows me to see other ways to overcome obstacles or otherwise easily taken care of issues in the even they adapt. I don't go in with the intention to win, I mean one time I went for a bit with no use of grabs, shielding, or dodging even if I knew it was a finishing or effective blow to me for reasons above.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Scarlet Jile You space pretty well, and I can see how this carries over to your Yoshi. It's definitely overall the area where I'm least confident in my own playstyle. I depend a lot more on reads and covering options conservatively.

I would definitely appreciate playing you again, as the For Glory Yoshi's I've encountered generally speaking aren't as familiar with the Ganon matchup as you are.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Sure man, good games. You definitely play a mean Ganon. I learned a lot of new tricks tonight.

The whole off-stage Ganon was TOTALLY new territory to me, so I'm glad I still have a lot to learn. My Yoshi was really rusty, because I basically never bring him out on wifi, but I'm glad I was able to keep you on your toes.

 

[Twewy]

My 3DS has been broken since November, and I haven't been exactly up to date with Smash 4. Have people realized who their true King is, or is he still considered bad?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sure man, good games. You definitely play a mean Ganon. I learned a lot of new tricks tonight.

The whole off-stage Ganon was TOTALLY new territory to me, so I'm glad I still have a lot to learn. My Yoshi was really rusty, because I basically never bring him out on wifi, but I'm glad I was able to keep you on your toes.

Mmm. I do think I actually have a very good handle on how to properly play out positive and negative states where options are fairly limited and where things can be broken down into more concrete flowcharts. Followups and edgeguards are something I do put a lot of effort in understanding carefully.

As Ganon, I feel knowing just how many options you have to cover what your opponent can do offstage is imo the most fun part of playing him, given the right read tends to end stocks quickly. There's nuances to picking the right aerial offstage, as each one covers different useful options. It's most difficult to learn how to use D-air imo, because that one requires the most precise timing, so most of the time I rely on N-air, U-air, and F-air which have longer lasting hitboxes (with F-air, a trick you might want to try is holding the control stick towards the stage while using your F-air). Waiting and spacing D-air correctly though is sometimes the best option for catching people who insist on recovering extremely low to avoid chasing attempts offstage.

 

[Opana]

If they recover extremely low wouldn't nair be an easy gimp? I'd use dair if they were at least at ledge rwnge, that is me though.

 

[Naroghin]

Depends on who is trying to come back. Many characters have limited recovery options and a Dair can better catch them at different points. I usually try to initiate a rising Dair around stage lvl when I think a Falcon is right about to use his upB, but for an Ike I'll go low to try and catch him before he can initiate his upB (risky, I know, but I'm getting the timing better each time).

I almost never get a Dair on anyone that has downward moving hitboxes from their upB because they almost always recover high. Unless I can get an early shield>grab>throw offstage and Dair just as their DJ comes out. Right now I'm mostly working on answering horizontal recoveries.

 

[Opana]

My answer to Falcon is uair, we can hit him before he grabs us and imo it's much easier. Chances are since he often recovers low he'd he finished from that.

I really love uair, the vid I posted with maniacal edge guarding in the other thread is the one where I uaird a Ness 7 times out of his active recovery, was amazing.

 

[Ekans647]

What are ways to use off stage Ganondorf? He seems to have a lot of potential there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What are ways to use off stage Ganondorf? He seems to have a lot of potential there.

Space any aerial intelligently and profit. Be ready to predict the occasional high recovery and airdodge when people become utterly terrified of your ability to banish them to hell.

There's a lot of small nuances I could try to explain for specific situations, but I don't feel like it when your question is actually pretty broad. The general jist of playing Ganon offstage is to find a way to hit your opponent with anything. I do mean anything by the way, because chances are they're probably dead after that.

Though if you want to make things easier on yourself, 80% of the time just run off with N-air and you'll probably profit somehow. Once your opponent starts trying really hard to avoid that, you have other options available that can cover their desperate attempts.

 

[_Magus_]

Space any aerial intelligently and profit. Be ready to predict the occasional high recovery and airdodge when people become utterly terrified of your ability to banish them to hell.

There's a lot of small nuances I could try to explain for specific situations, but I don't feel like it when your question is actually pretty broad. The general jist of playing Ganon offstage is to find a way to hit your opponent with anything. I do mean anything by the way, because chances are they're probably dead after that.

Though if you want to make things easier on yourself, 80% of the time just run off with N-air and you'll probably profit somehow. Once your opponent starts trying really hard to avoid that, you have other options available that can cover their desperate attempts.

Agreed. Our offstage game is incredible. Once an opponent is out there, it's game over. Over the pit of hell is the same as in it as far as Ganondorf is concerned.

 

[Naroghin]

If you're not sure if you can make it for the runoff Nair then wizkick cancel off the edge and Nair. Also, DJ rising dair right off the edge auto cancels when you DI back toward the stage and land so this can bait a getup attack or horizontal recovery (which you would shield or space and punish).

 

[Ekans647]

I just tried some offstage play. It was only against CPUs but damn. He's good. That could've helped me win an earlier match against a friend of mine. I'll get him next time,

 

[_Magus_]

Anyone else feel pretty awesome that we main Sakurai's favorite character? I forget so often that he plays Ganondorf. And for the weirdest reason too. XD

"Shigeru Miyamoto never told you the truth about your father."

"He told me enough! He told me you killed him!"

"No, Sakurai, I am your father."

"NOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

 

[HeavyLobster]

Runoff fair is sooo satisfying. The arc of the hitbox can let you hit a bit above and below you, and it just feels good to crush all those wimpy lightweights at 70%.

 

[_Magus_]

My answer to Falcon is uair, we can hit him before he grabs us and imo it's much easier. Chances are since he often recovers low he'd he finished from that.

I really love uair, the vid I posted with maniacal edge guarding in the other thread is the one where I uaird a Ness 7 times out of his active recovery, was amazing.

I once did a crazy offstage combo against a little mac.
Tipman uair > Up B > Down B Spike

Saved THAT replay XD

 

[Ekans647]

I once did a crazy offstage combo against a little mac.
Tipman uair > Up B > Down B Spike

Saved THAT replay XD

Show me o' great one.

 

[_Magus_]

Show me o' great one.

I'll upload it. It's on 3ds, so I had to record it with my cell phone

 

[_Magus_]

I'll upload it. It's on 3ds, so I had to record it with my cell phone

Here it is:

Uploaded this to my dormant channel. Going to upload more stuff, particularly Ganondorf related, and in better quality in the future.

 

[THE 6r]

Anyone else feel pretty awesome that we main Sakurai's favorite character? I forget so often that he plays Ganondorf. And for the weirdest reason too. XD

"Shigeru Miyamoto never told you the truth about your father."

"He told me enough! He told me you killed him!"

"No, Sakurai, I am your father."

"NOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

We are among the most knowledgable playerbases out there, so it's not surprising he chooses to put himself in our ranks. Also, Ganondorf can be a great troll at times, like Sakurai.

 

[_Magus_]

Idk why, but I feel like I'm a villain descending into my evil lair whenever I come on the Ganondorf boards. This place reeks of darkness, and I love it.

This song always plays in my head when I come on here. I propose this be the official theme of the Ganon Boards XD

 

[THE 6r]

Idk why, but I feel like I'm a villain descending into my evil lair whenever I come on the Ganondorf boards. This place reeks of darkness, and I love it.

This song always plays in my head when I come on here. I propose this be the official theme of the Ganon Boards XD

I second that.

 

[THE 6r]

I once did a crazy offstage combo against a little mac.
Tipman uair > Up B > Down B Spike

Saved THAT replay XD

I once did a volcano kick shieldbreak followed up by a reverse Warlock Punch.

IT FELT AMAZING!!

 

[_Magus_]

I once did a volcano kick shieldbreak followed up by a reverse Warlock Punch.

IT FELT AMAZING!!

The best feeling. Lots of people don't know that Up Tilt just tears through shields like wet toilet paper.

 

[Deleted member]

Idk why, but I feel like I'm a villain descending into my evil lair whenever I come on the Ganondorf boards. This place reeks of darkness, and I love it.

This song always plays in my head when I come on here. I propose this be the official theme of the Ganon Boards XD

Sir, you have good taste in music, but I have a more fitting suggestion for the King of Evil.