Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[KenMeister]

Indeed. I wouldn't mind starting up something like this again, especially after the Ganon tournament is done. We have new friends to include.

Huh, I wasn't aware Bizzaroflame played Smash 4. Why is he so low, though? Wasn't he like the best Ganon player in Melee? (IMO)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Huh, I wasn't aware Bizzaroflame played Smash 4. Why is he so low, though? Wasn't he like the best Ganon player in Melee? (IMO)

You mean Brawl?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Oh, boy - just saw this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-ganon-boards-tier-list.217996/
Memories

So who's up for opening a thread like this again? (If anything, it should be started after A2 suggested).

It could be a neat way to encourage more Dorf users, and show a standing of how we preform online and in tournaments.

 

[KenMeister]

You mean Brawl?

I'm talking about this Bizarro Flame:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy2FHHG0TGc

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm talking about this Bizarro Flame:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy2FHHG0TGc

No just like, the tier list is the Brawl Ganon player tier list. That's probably your explanation for everything.

 

[Opana]

I would really love a Ganon tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Definitely. I feel after the tournament is done, I would like to manage a Ganon player tier list, and have it linked to the matchmaking thread. By establishing a relative hierarchy of perceived/achieved skill levels, we can help newer players find matches with people they can improve with.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Holy **** guys, I just played RAIN on For Glory.

He won the majority of the games, but I won some, and it wasn't onesided. He mostly played Pit in those games. I have a lot of replays saved.

*trying to find him on Twitter right now, I know he has one*

 

[Ekans647]

Holy **** guys, I just played RAIN on For Glory.

He won the majority of the games, but I won some, and it wasn't onesided. He mostly played Pit in those games. I have a lot of replays saved.

*trying to find him on Twitter right now, I know he has one*

Holy hell. Good for you man. I know what it's like to encounter a pro player online. Where you using Ganondorf?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I played Ganondorf. I personally think the actual matchup is about even. As I said, I have some very good quality replays that I think demonstrate things to look for in the matchup.

 

[Ekans647]

Yeah, I played Ganondorf. I personally think the actual matchup is about even. As I said, I have some very good quality replays that I think demonstrate things to look for in the matchup.

Could you provide a link to your matches? I need a bit of help learning Ganondorf, especially with spacing and dealing with his small hitboxes. Your videos would help me with that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Could you provide a link to your matches? I need a bit of help learning Ganondorf, especially with spacing and dealing with his small hitboxes. Your videos would help me with that.

That means I actually have to record them somehow...which I know I can once I feel like it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganondorf got even better for me after playing my hardest against a good Diddy.

Got a stock lead, on battlefield, and then camped near the edge the whole time waiting for a trick Ganoncide. The Diddy was also anticipating it, so he was baiting with a roll, but the fear factor of that alone (run off stage, aerudo) really kept him at bay, and there wasn't much he could have done. Ganoncide is actually amazingly more useful in different ways, and we should look deeper into the technique.

Plus when he tried coming near the edge when I was on the ledge, I uaired > regrabbed with gerudo so he couldn't chase me off at all. Not to mention that holding down while recovering gave me another grab option. Ganon's ledge game can be really good and scary if you know what you're doing.

I also noticed that characters Diddy's size have a tougher time teching flame choke as compared to other characters (considering that he's the best character in the game, this is quite helpful, and our options after a missed tech are all but jab). Battlefield is our best bet against him, as one of the bonus is putting him on platforms after gerudo (I managed to get two usmash shield break this way).

I have two matches which I'll upload.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YPq2Ang-YvU

So I tested what I could and Lucario can do this at low percents depending on the knockback, but this being set has me curious if this always works. I know it doesn't help us but I don't like withholding info.

Also, anyone else in the huge online tourney? I am happy I got some great Falcon practice vs. Acid 2 days ago after seeing that chart. Acid is an amazing Xanadu Falcon.

 

[adom4]

Ganondorf got even better for me after playing my hardest against a good Diddy.

Got a stock lead, on battlefield, and then camped near the edge the whole time waiting for a trick Ganoncide. The Diddy was also anticipating it, so he was baiting with a roll, but the fear factor of that alone (run off stage, aerudo) really kept him at bay, and there wasn't much he could have done. Ganoncide is actually amazingly more useful in different ways, and we should look deeper into the technique.

Plus when he tried coming near the edge when I was on the ledge, I uaired > regrabbed with gerudo so he couldn't chase me off at all. Not to mention that holding down while recovering gave me another grab option. Ganon's ledge game can be really good and scary if you know what you're doing.

I also noticed that characters Diddy's size have a tougher time teching flame choke as compared to other characters (considering that he's the best character in the game, this is quite helpful, and our options after a missed tech are all but jab). Battlefield is our best bet against him, as one of the bonus is putting him on platforms after gerudo (I managed to get two usmash shield break this way).

I have two matches which I'll upload.

If customs are on then Dark fists off the ledge is scary as hell, that move hits like a nuke.

@ Opana I'm in Europe bracket 1, there are some pretty good players there.

 

[Opana]

NA Pool 9 here

 

[Vermanubis]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YPq2Ang-YvU

So I tested what I could and Lucario can do this at low percents depending on the knockback, but this being set has me curious if this always works. I know it doesn't help us but I don't like withholding info.

Also, anyone else in the huge online tourney? I am happy I got some great Falcon practice vs. Acid 2 days ago after seeing that chart. Acid is an amazing Xanadu Falcon.

In all actuality, ES out of choke might be extremely unsafe. Unless he sweetspots the ledge from the center of the stage, he's gonna be sitting on some serious lag.

 

[Opana]

In all actuality, ES out of choke might be extremely unsafe. Unless he sweetspots the ledge from the center of the stage, he's gonna be sitting on some serious lag.

I kinda figured but found it interesting regardless. I never noticed how heavy the lag on it is until playing this guy a lot, I can't think of any other recovery off the top of my head with more landing lag.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It is interesting and better to know regardless of the unsafety. Good find.

 

[Opana]

Lost in the tourney. Played the roommate of my first opponent right after and I think he had been watching. I think I'd have won considering how close it was so I'm kinda salty. Lost in losers 2 1 to a Robin.

 

[_Magus_]

Lost in the tourney. Played the roommate of my first opponent right after and I think he had been watching. I think I'd have won considering how close it was so I'm kinda salty. Lost in losers 2 1 to a Robin.

It'll be okay. You'll get him next time, buddy.

Idk if this is true for everyone, but I find my Ganondorf does better when I have a grudge against a player.

 

[adom4]

Lost in the tourney. Played the roommate of my first opponent right after and I think he had been watching. I think I'd have won considering how close it was so I'm kinda salty. Lost in losers 2 1 to a Robin.

I got to losers round 7 in my bracket.
Got knocked out by cyve in the winners bracket (and learned the horrors of a Brawl diddy main) & then got knocked by Greward.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why didn't I know about this lol -_-?

 

[_Magus_]

Definitely. I feel after the tournament is done, I would like to manage a Ganon player tier list, and have it linked to the matchmaking thread. By establishing a relative hierarchy of perceived/achieved skill levels, we can help newer players find matches with people they can improve with.

I'd love to play some sets against you guys and see where I fall in the realm of skill. Even if I'm low on the tier list, it'd be awesome to be ranked with you guys :D

 

[Opana]

I destroyed the 1st guy, bsrely got beat out by his roommate and idk it must made me less condident. In losers O don't mind losing much though as they were pretty good, but I think I could''ve done better. Idk no johns I guess, will hope to participate in another if they host more.

The roommate used Sonic, the first roommate used Yoshi and Sheik. In losers my opponent used Marth and Robin.

I do better when I work my way up rather than deal with someone I used to best often for some reason. Grudges and/or anger ron't really do much for me tbh.

 

[the king of murder]

Dont give up man and dont lose confidence. Ganon comes back stronger than ever after his defeats. So will you guys.

 

[Opana]

Nah I don't intend to give up, I still aim to play at a top professional level with dorf eventually although of anything it'd be wifi only.

 

[KieRanaRan]

I took part in a little makeshift 12 person tourney last week. Freakin' lost my first matchup (best of 3), although my only win came from Ganondorf. I know what you mean, though - there are days where I'll just admit defeat, no harm done but there are other times when I feel really downbeat for some odd reason :/ Oh well...

 

[KenMeister]

That feeling when you enter a tournament and the first opponent you face ends up being the winner in the end, meaning you end up getting bodied.

 

[Ekans647]

That feeling when you enter a tournament and the first opponent you face ends up being the winner in the end, meaning you end up getting bodied.

Getting bodied in general sucks. What happened exactly?

 

[KenMeister]

Getting bodied in general sucks. What happened exactly?

Oh it was way back, but it was a Melee tournament with 40 or so people and the first person I fought ended up making it to Winner's Finals in the end, so obviously I got beat pretty badly (2-stocked).

 

[Ekans647]

Oh it was way back, but it was a Melee tournament with 40 or so people and the first person I fought ended up making it to Winner's Finals in the end, so obviously I got beat pretty badly (2-stocked).

Damn. To be fair, there's nothing like boding someone else though. Like getting a 0-KO string or a hard read, or landing Warlock Punch on 3 other player in For Glory.

 

[Opana]

I am trying my hand at Sheik so I can deal with MUs better such as Sonic.

 

[Hi-Hatz]

Yo this post is huge. Let me know if I should make a new thread for it, or maybe we can (or already do) have a tourney impressions thread.

I just got back from Paragon, the last Apex qualifier in the circuit, so I guess I'd like to share the story of my time there even though I drowned in pools. It was so unbecoming. ;(

Pools for Sm4sh were originally going to be double elimination bracket, then changed to round robin, then changed back to bracket at the last moment. Only 2 people could come out of every pool. My pool of 11 was fair enough to be honest; living in Florida I know who all the most popular players are, and like most pools, mine had 1-2 big names at the most. Of course, everyone was respectably good and some came from quite a distance to play, while others were playing multiple iterations of Smash. All in all, I only saw traces of 2 other Ganondorf mains at the tournament: 1, in my friend's pool, who was either unlucky or unskilled, and 1 who is said to be good but is currently known for and maybe only there for Melee.

Match 1 - I got a Sonic who I was fortunate enough to spot out before I played him. Knowing he was coming all the way from Texas but also playing Melee and PM, I didn't know what to expect. He was solid, but I personally know 3 who are better (they all made it into the final bracket). Fighting against a Sonic, I brought back an original tactic which, now largely abandoned, is still a very conscious part of my play-style against most Sonics, and that is to charge all teh Up-Smashes... all of them. The range and scope of Up-Smash is good for many reasons, but the biggest is for catching any telegraphed Sonic Neutral B's, and when you understand Sonic like I do, this is perhaps one of the most telegraphed things you could ever predict. One thing I don't know about Sonic yet is how I feel about stages, so short of banning Town and City, I went where the wind blew, and in the end, I came out 2-0.

Match 2 - This was the one I had been studying for. I was up against ChoZoX, a relatively unknown Samus who I was fortunate enough to already know as the serious threat that he was. I downloaded his entire play-style and had my stage bans ready before Paragon even began, and I knew this would be the match that decided whether I made it out of pools or not even though I would have another chance much later. Had I won, I probably would have taken it all the way to winners, but because I lost in that part of the bracket, I was sent all the way back to the beginning of losers for a gauntlet against the rest of the pool. My matches with ChoZoX ended a little quicker than I can remember, but my very real skill against Samus wasn't enough to overcome his excellent play-style this time. If there's one little thing that I can suggest right away about any Samus, not that I had to learn it at Paragon, it's to acclimate yourself to how much longer it takes to shield out of simple actions like getting up and landing. Though I knew to ban Duck Hunt and Town and City (more of a personal one for him I believe), I didn't really have a counter in mind, and so I went to Lylat, where I messed up my recovery for the first time ever. That match was embarrassingly short, but I was also glad because I needed the time to wind down anyway. I lost 0-2. ChoZox eventually took 7th place at Paragon, so shout-outs to that even though we aren't friends.

Match 3 - (At this point, some of the characters may be out of order. I'm really not 100% on that.) My first match in losers was against Zero Suit, and while I haven't played a dedicated ZSS main, I have played her enough to understand her. This ZSS, like many of the people I would describe in my pool, were solid (worthy of being there) but not great (ready to take on the final bracket). One thing that makes me cringe about ZSS, and my over performance and the final results of Paragon, is that Ganon at least can DI out of her Up-B. I'm not about to say anything past that (I don't know if it's 100%, or how to say when to do it), I just know for sure that you can DI into it to escape, but this early on I seem to have been one of the only ones who knew (Mew2King himself didn't DI out of it once, though I'm not sure if he ever really could, either.) Punishing a ZSS grab would sometimes result in a Dash Attack to Grab combo, which is nice, and as always, I would space to intercept mobile moves like her Down-B. After banning Halberd for the ridiculous ceiling (I don't think I saw Halberd on-screen once at Paragon), I continued to 2-0 this match. I'm not sure how I felt about my expectations at this point.

? Match 4 - There is actually one match that I honestly can't even remember playing. Did I play the same character twice? Was it a Sheik? I really can't remember right now. O_o 2-0

Match 5 - I played Deadre, a pretty solid Pikachu who trained briefly with Nakat. This is another one of the matches that I knew about beforehand (although I had no idea if it would be hard or not). I think this was my first ever competitive match with a Pikachu, so I took everything I knew and played it as safe as possible. Most of my kills came out of spacing a charged smash into his Up-B antics, and I believe that this isn't just part of my play-style but one of the tactics that plays well into Ganondorf as a character. Deadre showed his talent off when he practically 0-to-death'd me on his counter-pick, but I brought it all back and finished it with what may have been my first Flame Choke off the ledge. I won 2-0, and I was beginning to hear the occasional stranger or two hyping really loudly about my Ganondorf. At this point, my expectations and drive to win were back in full, but my future opponents were watching me.

Match 6 - Was this the guy who played with the 3DS, and was this even the Fox? I'm not entirely sure either way. Fox is one of those characters that gives me a very threatening aura while simultaneously not scaring me at all. Maybe it's because I haven't played the right Fox yet, or maybe Ganondorf is just more at ease with the match-up now. For me, the Fox match-up alternates between respectful patience and spacing, and then going in with hard reads and solid anti-recovery kills. I believe that Fox can still mess us up very quickly, but a concise beat-down will almost always get us out alive. I sealed one of my matches with a Flame Choke to F-Smash behind me (blowing the dust off of my For Glory play-style), and I could begin to hear people talking more about Ganondorf in general. The respect was coming.

Match 7 - Perhaps my only real disappointment about Paragon, my loser's finals match was against the second seed in my pool (again, in a set of pools where only 1-2 seed were known anyway), and he was only here in losers because of ChoZoX. Being the final battle, I was fueled with the drive to make it out, and that drive didn't falter in the least when he went Diddy Kong. Normally, I would strike my favorite stage, Battlefield, against a Diddy Kong, but I took him there anyway this time and it turned out to be a really great choice. I broke out every trick of the book and used my extensive match-up experience to kill him with a hard read at %40, but then somehow dropped it all and ended up killing myself while attempting what I would consider to be the most regular, safe gimp in the book on our last stock. I went down, but I didn't come back up. 0-1. He went R.O.B. next, and because of my impression that I should have won the last match, I took him back to Battlefield. Now Rob is like ZSS for me; I haven't played one, but I know him well enough, and I would like to give a special thanks to @Z1GMA for his creative post about the Gyrudo, which I just happened to have read. I took that **** with excitement and pulled it off twice in the match, and it's one of the coolest thing I've ever seen Ganon have in a match-up so far. I thought I was wrecking this Rob, but nonetheless, I failed a regular recovery once and foolishly get-up rolled into a charged smash to lose yet another match that I thought I should have won. 0-2 and I was beginning to get flustered with my body. Then he chose Alph, and I had a sudden change of respect for knowing that this was one match-up that wasn't in my personal favor. After a lot of thought, I took him back to Battlefield one last time for the final showdown, and continued to play my Ganon against this Olimar. The only thing I really remember about the match is how it ended. I ran off stage to perform a (yet again, regular) walk-off spike, but in spiking the Pikmin that were attached to me, I became unable to recover soon enough to live it. This was both disappointing (especially since I knew this secret enough to be the one explaining it to him after the match), and hilarious, so I took that particular loss with respect. 0-3, and I got knocked out of Paragon by a set that I felt like I shoulda coulda won. Not the best way to go, but the guy seemed really nice and I definitely showed him the glory of Ganon.

Looking back at my pool, I can see now that what I thought about my bracket was really true: I played 7 whole matches, while nobody else played more than 4. Losing to ChoZoX really sealed the whole deal for me, but I respect our set and that's just the way tournaments go most of the time. I wasn't in the mood to play any more competitive matches until the tournament ended, when I money matched ChoZoX and top 4, but they were all understandably busy or not in the mood to play me either. Based on the results of the tournament, I would say realistically that I (with just Ganon) could make top 8 on a good day where my health isn't hindering me, or top 16 at the least (amongst my peers at Paragon). I also believe that that might change rapidly as people learn the game better, but as for right now it's evident that even the best players still have a lot to learn before the meta-game settles, and that mirrors my thoughts on Ganondorf. He's definitely more viable than ever, but there may come a time when certain top-tier characters become insurmountable once we all understand the game better. As for now though, there's only a handful of people on the entire scene that could probably make me feel like I was in an un-winnable match-up. Shout-outs to everyone who went to Paragon, and if you happen to know me and stumble on this old Ganon's post, then say hi or something. XD

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ok guys, I now actually sincerely believe I need to find tournaments in downtown Los Angeles. The competitive spirit within me has rekindled. I know there are people out there that are better than me, but that doesn't mean that I haven't been constantly improving. Should there be an opportunity, I will try to attend a tournament, and I will legitimately aim to win going Ganondorf only. I now believe I am currently good enough to be a tournament threat and have fair games with other high level players.

Yes I'm aware it's shameless self promotion, but as with anything I experience, intend to translate it into useful information.

 

[Opana]

Zomg, would you like to exchange NNIDs? I feel similar

 

[_Magus_]

Ok guys, I now actually sincerely believe I need to find tournaments in downtown Los Angeles. The competitive spirit within me has rekindled. I know there are people out there that are better than me, but that doesn't mean that I haven't been constantly improving. Should there be an opportunity, I will try to attend a tournament, and I will legitimately aim to win going Ganondorf only. I now believe I am currently good enough to be a tournament threat and have fair games with other high level players.

Yes I'm aware it's shameless self promotion, but as with anything I experience, intend to translate it into useful information.

Want to play some sets? I think I could learn a thing or two from you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Want to play some sets? I think I could learn a thing or two from you.

You can add me, and try to play me at 8pm PST or later.

 

[_Magus_]

You can add me, and try to play me at 8pm PST or later.

Not tonight, sorry. Would a night on the weekend work for you?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not tonight, sorry. Would a night on the weekend work for you?

Yeah. Generally speaking 8pm or later on weekends for me is preferable.