Social The Ganonic Grimoire - Kongregation of Kings

[A2ZOMG]

I assume it's mostly me having poor reaction time, but probably the most annoying thing for me to deal with are people who spam tether dashgrabs. I have a difficult time reactively dodging them, and I don't know if it's partly online latency which exacerbates it given I don't have much offline competition to play with.

As I am right now, I have to make a fairly major playstyle shift to deal with things like Samus/ZSS when they start trying to dashgrab a lot in neutral. If anyone has experienced differently, I would appreciate hearing.

 

[Opana]

I look for common grab set ups like paralyzer bait to counter bait with powershields or empty jumps/nairs. If they're in distance of grabbing, well I already spend a lot of time in the air but I'd do the same here tbh, I'd mix in full hops and nair kicks one and two with shot hops and nair kick 1.

Honestly, I would pick up a secondary not so much for the dash grab but MU in general, I got knocked out my my tourney due to a campy ZSS(I got a game off them so they went safe) and ended up playing them again using a secondary, Shulk and taking the win.

At the same tourney I also got wrecked by boss lol.

 

[Vermanubis]

The dashgrabs are definitely an ass pain to deal with. To be honest, aside from what Opa said about recognizing set-ups, the only 100% answer to the dash grabs are prediction. Preemptive NAirs are an option, but against ZSS, a whiffed NAir's a punish all the same.

Also, if luck shines upon me, I'll be <finally> attending my first tournament in Spokane, Washington later this month. The luck comes in determining whether or not the roads are passable. I live in a valley, so leaving the valley means crossing mountain passes. So Winter is the worst time in the world to do things where I am.

At that, I intend to do nothing short of winning! Their knees will bend to my maledictive will, even if I must invert them with the very sole of my boot.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I live in a valley, so leaving the valley means crossing mountain passes. So Winter is the worst time in the world to do things where I am.

Since when were valleys a problem for us lords?

 

[Vermanubis]

You got me there, Kalm! I guess I'm without excuse now. =P

 

[Lozjam]

Since when were valleys a problem for us lords?

We broke the bridge to Gerudo valley just because we could!

 

[Opana]

Wow I'm angry, I played a Sonic in an online tourney that bested me by using a custom side special that buries you and rolling repeatedly.

 

[Vinylic.]

I'm just gonna leave my replay here.

 

[Rizen]

Wow I'm angry, I played a Sonic in an online tourney that bested me by using a custom side special that buries you and rolling repeatedly.

Sonic's really good in this game. He's extremely hard to punish online :/

 

[Opana]

I can deal with the rolling to an extent but the burying dash is pretty much all he did, that and smash attacks when I was buried. I couldn't really punish him from above due to it and I can't punish him after due to the speed. It's just too safe imo and I am forever salted.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Hammer Spin Dash so I've heard is basically the best move in the game.

 

[PowerHungryFool]

 

[Tribute]

One of these days I'll probably actually post some matches to get advice since mucking around on 3ds Dorf has actually made me start having fun again

for now, the first time I've ever broken a shield without uptilt or shield-breaker

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Just a small advice for the kings in learning, utilize the IASA of usmash more, and use it to punish (and scare) roll happy opponents.

You'll surprise yourself how wonderful the move is.

 

[fromundaman]

Just a small advice for the kings in learning, utilize the IASA of usmash more, and use it to punish (and scare) roll happy opponents.

You'll surprise yourself how wonderful the move is.

Agreed! I almost spam this from roll distance since there's not a lot most characters can do about i. It also makes people think I'm making godlike reads when someone rolls XD

 

[adom4]

Just a small advice for the kings in learning, utilize the IASA of usmash more, and use it to punish (and scare) roll happy opponents.

You'll surprise yourself how wonderful the move is.

I agree, it's really good also for baiting people in thinking they can punish Dorf & then eating a wizkick to the face.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just a small advice for the kings in learning, utilize the IASA of usmash more, and use it to punish (and scare) roll happy opponents.

You'll surprise yourself how wonderful the move is.

I do this a lot against missed techs near the ledge and sometimes against ledgerolls. I do this less often against inward rolls because I find the spacing a little too precise while retreating D-air and Flame Choke I find still does a good job covering inward rolls.

 

[Opana]

I am aware yet don't use it as much as I should.

Just had a few hours long session of Le Troof destroying me, all my confidence has depleted lol. I need to stop mirroring and play other MUs tbh, and stop trying to work on so many secondaries.

Hey Verm, you have any tips? I know you played him is all, so I'm assuming you know a bit of why I am getting wrecke dbad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly...I feel like as Ganondorf in general, you have to accept that some players will eventually pick you apart and send you on seemingly terrible losing streaks. Ganondorf is a character who sometimes loses games pretty hard because he has clear weaknesses.

When a good player destroys me, I remind myself that sometimes it just happens when you play Ganondorf. I also remind myself that it's also an opportunity for me to challenge myself to find new clever ways to adjust my game. When you play a fighting game grappler, you just have to remember that by design, your game will never be totally consistent. But that's also precisely why the highs of our game are among the best that exist.

 

[fromundaman]

I only halfway agree with you. I don't feel you should ever blame a loss on your character.

I'm not ssaying to deny their flaws or bad matchups, but if you are committing to the character or mmatch-up,then when you yoook back on your losses you should be thinking "I lost to a bad read/punish/decision/spacing/etc. It won't happen next time." Rather than dismissing itas "I just lost because I play Ganon."

 

[Sykkamorre]

I only halfway agree with you. I don't feel you should ever blame a loss on your character.

I'm not ssaying to deny their flaws or bad matchups, but if you are committing to the character or mmatch-up,then when you yoook back on your losses you should be thinking "I lost to a bad read/punish/decision/spacing/etc. It won't happen next time." Rather than dismissing itas "I just lost because I play Ganon."

I almost agree with you there, but I'm not gonna lie. Most of my matches against ( A certain) Pikachu leave me Feeling like "I know this match would be a lot easier if I used ANY other character"

There's a huge difference between the matches where you can tell it's a matter of skill and the matches where it's clear that it would take an act of god to give you a sporting chance against a specific matchup. Now I'm not just talking about char v char matchup, but player vs player matchups. A clash of playstyles.

I don't know if U.K.L. is a well known player, but she should be.

 

[fromundaman]

Oh I understand, and some matchups you just should not play (you will NEVER see me pull Pacman in a tournament match vs Rosa, ever). That's fine, and it is important to know as well.

However, if you do decide to play a MU, for better or worse, you can't give yourself johns as it will stunt your growth as a player.

 

[Opana]

Troof is the better player for sure, wanted to make that clear lol. I like playing good players as I feel it's very useful , it shows me what I do too much and I try and adjust my game after.

Plus they offer good advice e.g. @ Vermanubis

 

[Vermanubis]

To answer your question about Bowser/Troof, Opa:

It's been a bit since I've played him. What exactly did he do that gave you trouble? When I played him, he was really good at keeping out of my range and spacing really well. In which case, I'm not sure there're many useful tips I can give, unfortunately. I just challenged him a lot in the air and slowly pushed him to the corner where I'd use Aerudo mixups to force commitments out.

 

[Opana]

Most of my issues come from him covering my ledge options.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I only halfway agree with you. I don't feel you should ever blame a loss on your character.

I'm not ssaying to deny their flaws or bad matchups, but if you are committing to the character or mmatch-up,then when you yoook back on your losses you should be thinking "I lost to a bad read/punish/decision/spacing/etc. It won't happen next time." Rather than dismissing itas "I just lost because I play Ganon."

But...you effectively missed the point by saying I'm blaming any of my losses on my character.

There's a big difference between saying that, and stating that Ganondorf is a character who tends to win and lose hard, just due to his emphasis on hard reads. I lose games against players that are better than me, and I tend to feel like I lose pretty hard in those games. Similarly when I win, I often feel like I win very convincingly the majority of the time.

Nowhere did I imply anywhere I was talking about Ganondorf's matchups (and if you actually want to talk to me about that, I probably am more optimistic about Ganondorf's matchup spreads than the majority of people). I was talking about general game flow against different players.

 

[KenMeister]

It kinda reminds me of what one of my friends told me, who also plays Melee competitively (this is Smash 4, but same concept). I really don't think tiers or written matchups should matter for the most part when playing online (mostly) or at regionals and locals, it's not really until you enter nationals where your character weakness begin to really show its ugly side. And with Smash 4's metagame being in its infancy, we don't really have a solid idea of where the mids or lows stand since the tiers are closer together than they were in previous games. So at this rate, it really just boils down to how the player counters the other's playstyle rather than the characters themselves. At least, that's my perspective anyway.

tl:dr : I don't think anyone should be blaming Ganon for their losses either until they play him in a national or the highest level of play.

 

[Vermanubis]

Honestly...I feel like as Ganondorf in general, you have to accept that some players will eventually pick you apart and send you on seemingly terrible losing streaks. Ganondorf is a character who sometimes loses games pretty hard because he has clear weaknesses.

When a good player destroys me, I remind myself that sometimes it just happens when you play Ganondorf. I also remind myself that it's also an opportunity for me to challenge myself to find new clever ways to adjust my game. When you play a fighting game grappler, you just have to remember that by design, your game will never be totally consistent. But that's also precisely why the highs of our game are among the best that exist.

Well-put! All things considered, while Ganon prospers that much more through fundamentals, it's ultimately reads that carry him, since very little of our game is predicated on direct answers. That being said, reads aren't consistent. It's like Seth in Street Fighter: no matter how well you punish, if you're grounded in prediction, your results will fluctuate. At the very least, the <probability> that they will fluctuate -- even if they don't -- is much higher than that of other characters. You can still have consistent results, but flipping heads 50 times in sequence doesn't mean the probability of heads is greater than tails.

Also, speaking of which, a valuable piece of advice I've come across over the years: don't play loads of friendlies with people you might play in tourney. Mystery is 90% of what makes Ganon terrifying.

One last thing: I've been thinking of making an FAQ thread to cut down on extraneous threads. I'm trying to build a list of questions people ask a bunch. I'll make the thread when I have time, and when I do, I'd appreciate anybody's help in thinking up the most common questions.

 

[Opana]

I'd be up for helping if I get a chance.

 

[adom4]

Well-put! All things considered, while Ganon prospers that much more through fundamentals, it's ultimately reads that carry him, since very little of our game is predicated on direct answers. That being said, reads aren't consistent. It's like Seth in Street Fighter: no matter how well you punish, if you're grounded in prediction, your results will fluctuate. At the very least, the <probability> that they will fluctuate -- even if they don't -- is much higher than that of other characters. You can still have consistent results, but flipping heads 50 times in sequence doesn't mean the probability of heads is greater than tails.

Also, speaking of which, a valuable piece of advice I've come across over the years: don't play loads of friendlies with people you might play in tourney. Mystery is 90% of what makes Ganon terrifying.

One last thing: I've been thinking of making an FAQ thread to cut down on extraneous threads. I'm trying to build a list of questions people ask a bunch. I'll make the thread when I have time, and when I do, I'd appreciate anybody's help in thinking up the most common questions.

"What follow ups i can do after a choke?"
I faced a lot of Ganondorfs that tried to D-tilt me all the time even though i was Ganondorf, it really helps to know the follow ups (including the harder reads).

 

[fromundaman]

Ah, I apologize for misunderstanding your post then A2Z.
There is a distinct possibility that I have gotten too accustomed to dealing with the "doom and gloom" Joker players from playing Injustice.

Still, even if everyone already knows it, what I posted is a mentality we should all keep. I see too many people, even in the groups of people I play regularly, blame their character (Or even in some rare instances, the game for not being melee!) for the loss rather than their own mistakes.

 

[_Magus_]

Well-put! All things considered, while Ganon prospers that much more through fundamentals, it's ultimately reads that carry him, since very little of our game is predicated on direct answers. That being said, reads aren't consistent. It's like Seth in Street Fighter: no matter how well you punish, if you're grounded in prediction, your results will fluctuate. At the very least, the <probability> that they will fluctuate -- even if they don't -- is much higher than that of other characters. You can still have consistent results, but flipping heads 50 times in sequence doesn't mean the probability of heads is greater than tails.

Also, speaking of which, a valuable piece of advice I've come across over the years: don't play loads of friendlies with people you might play in tourney. Mystery is 90% of what makes Ganon terrifying.

One last thing: I've been thinking of making an FAQ thread to cut down on extraneous threads. I'm trying to build a list of questions people ask a bunch. I'll make the thread when I have time, and when I do, I'd appreciate anybody's help in thinking up the most common questions.

This is so true. I've played too many friendlies with some people, and now they know Ganon well enough to not fear him as much. Huge advantage lost :/

 

[Opana]

I tried not to play friendlies at tourneys as well, only did once or twice vs. a guy who asked. He was with a group of friends which made me a bit nervous he was telling them how I play lol. I beat him ten and in the tourney though, eventually losing to the Luigi main Boss. He was smart and watched me, was a 3DS tourney before the U had Smash. I hope to play him again one day as he absolutely wrecked me.

 

[_Magus_]

Hey guys! Found a new tech (could it even be considered that?) that works on our toughest matchups: the smaller characters.
Notable names include ness, pika, and diddy kong. At least I think it's new. I haven't seen it discussed around here but I could be mistaken. Anyway, it's a way that creates new choke followups for us and also makes them easier to land than the traditional ones.

Will post a full report later, as I'm testing it on the whole roster.

 

[Opana]

I love jump cancel throwing bananas as a follow up to choke.

 

[_Magus_]

I love jump cancel throwing bananas as a follow up to choke.

That's a followup? Good to know XD

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech-maybe.385776/
Here's the link to that thread if anyone wants to check it out. Someone may have mentioned this before, but if they did I'm having a hard time finding it.

 

[Opana]

I want to make a Ganon guide of some kind, if so what? Not a general guide but a specific one, maybe about stages?

 

[KenMeister]

Here's my contribution: never pick FD. Done.

 

[_Magus_]

I want to make a Ganon guide of some kind, if so what? Not a general guide but a specific one, maybe about stages?

I made one about battlefield, feel free to incorporate my info if you do make a guide. :D

@ A2ZOMG I keep meaning to ask you, can you tell me about your Game and Watch days? Why did you main him in brawl, and did you get any super awesome stories out of it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I made one about battlefield, feel free to incorporate my info if you do make a guide. :D

@ A2ZOMG I keep meaning to ask you, can you tell me about your Game and Watch days? Why did you main him in brawl, and did you get any super awesome stories out of it?

I kinda mained G&W in Brawl for similar reasons I like Ganondorf. I like really hard hitting characters, and I also liked his techchase and edgeguard game a lot.

I won a money match against Princess Aura a long time ago in a G&W ditto, and she gave me a drawing in exchange. That's probably my favorite story about my G&W days.