Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[sadfaps]

Did little mac get a wall jump buff? played against one today and he made it from duck hunt blastzone to ledge

 

[Aninymouse]

Did little mac get a wall jump buff? played against one today and he made it from duck hunt blastzone to ledge

Little Mac always had a top-tier wall jump.

 

[sadfaps]

Little Mac always had a top-tier wall jump.

Sweet, I'm going to leave this thread cause I don't know anything clearly lol.
thank you for clarifying

 

[Aninymouse]

Sweet, I'm going to leave this thread cause I don't know anything clearly lol.
thank you for clarifying

Your question was more on-topic than 75% or so of the last two pages of this thread. Don't worry about it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Like 8 or so different characters that still has nothing found for em yet cause most of the datamining has been focused on FE characters and Falco.

Please don't make the assumption there's anything at all to find in the first place. When we say "possible parameter changes" we don't mean "oh yeah, we just haven't found it yet lol".

 

[jespoke]

I'm looking at the Charizard diffs that @Sammi Husky posted and can say one thing for certain: The KBG on the final hit of Upsmash was increased. The sweet, mid and sourspot have been unified to have the same knockback that is higher than the old sweetspot.

KBG = 101,103,105 ----> 107

There is some code that has been swapped around making it look like more changes than it is, but there are some things with the hitboxes that was changed.

Edit: I tried some things in training mode to figure out what hitboxes are placed where, and it seems the upper part of Zard's wing on the first hit hits the target towards himself at a lower angle, presumably making it link better if you hit with the very tip/at super high %. The hitbox at the very tip is also straight up bigger 4 -> 5


Edit 2: If I'm reading these right the hitbox on the innermost part of Wing 1 has been shifted down and out. The outer wing also has its 2 hitboxes shifted into each other , and the one that doesn't reach the outer tip has had its WBKB reduced, but i don't actually know what WBKB does.

Edit 3: There is a hitbox seemingly attached to Charizard itself that comes out 1 frame before the wings that has been shifted forward the tiniest bit. By the name "Defensive hitbox" i guess Charizard can clank stuff 1 frame before his own hitboxes come out, and these were moved in the same way as their corresponding hitboxes

Sorry i keep editing this, writing it here helps my own understanding of it.

 

[TheZepdragon]

I'm looking at the Charizard diffs that @Sammi Husky posted and can say one thing for certain: The KBG on the final hit of Upsmash was increased. The sweet, mid and sourspot have been unified to have the same knockback that is higher than the old sweetspot.

KBG = 101,103,105 ----> 107

There is some code that has been swapped around making it look like more changes than it is, but there are some things with the hitboxes that was changed.

Edit: I tried some things in training mode to figure out what hitboxes are placed where, and it seems the upper part of Zard's wing on the first hit hits the target towards himself at a lower angle, presumably making it link better if you hit with the very tip/at super high %. The hitbox at the very tip is also straight up bigger 4 -> 5


Edit 2: If I'm reading these right the hitbox on the innermost part of Wing 1 has been shifted down and out. The outer wing also has its 2 hitboxes shifted into each other , and the one that doesn't reach the outer tip has had its WBKB reduced, but i don't actually know what WBKB does.

Edit 3: There is a hitbox seemingly attached to Charizard itself that comes out 1 frame before the wings that has been shifted forward the tiniest bit. By the name "Defensive hitbox" i guess Charizard can clank stuff 1 frame before his own hitboxes come out, and these were moved in the same way as their corresponding hitboxes

Sorry i keep editing this, writing it here helps my own understanding of it.

Thanks, its helpful knowing what was changed. Been waiting to see what changes were made to charizard but if its just his Usmash then its quite underwhelming. It does feel better and the opponent doesn't fall out of it like it used to do.

 

[That Ain't Falco]

I play a lot of For Glory (I suffer from Sandbox Syndrome way too much at local tournaments) , and if I were to say which characters you see the most (as of last Monday and based on my own experience):

"Oh Goddamnit, Another One?!" tier: (Hilariously terrible 90% of the time with a 9% chance you run into one that's competent and 1% that utterly destroys you. So common that you'll quickly come to resent them.)

"At Least It's Not the Top Category" tier: (Usually average and very common secondaries. Maybe not see them if you only play for a few hours)

"Not Overused but Not Unused Either" tier: (Average or terrible a vast majority of the time. Along with the top category, probably the most popular with kids. May go a day without seeing one.)

"A New Challenger Appears" tier: (Usually the best players you'll come across on an average basis, especially if they sole use the character specified. May go a few days without seeing one.)

"Almost Forgot This Character was in the Game" tier: (Eye crossingly bad or nightmarishly good with virtually nothing inbetween. If the person plays one of these characters, they're usually super dedicated to them or is likely competent with a good portion of the cast. May go a week or more without seeing one)

.

Personally, I have fought almost exclusively Toon Links, Shulks, and Macs on FG, with a ZSS and a Sheik now and again, but that may just be because I'm total **** at smash

 

[SM Mystic]

Maybe I should restate my previous statement as characters who have received significant buff dumps. According to Smash Wiki, has only received adjustments to his jab, fsmash, and nair with jab and fsmash being in the same patch (1.1.0). In comparison, has had positive adjustments to all her tilts, nair, usmash, grab, and fair in three separate patches and has positive adjustments to her jab, utilt, dtilt, uair, dair, nair, usmash, fsmash, and phantom knight in five separate patches. If if I were to rephrase my previous statement, would be the ones that qualify while still count for the original statement.

Zelda still needs some changes. To like, all of her moves. I understand Side B throwing her into free fall, but those FAF frames on her smash attacks need to go down. She needs a Frame 1 reflector hitbox, and the reflector doesn't activate till frame 6. And faster startup and less endlag on Up B.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Zelda still needs some changes. To like, all of her moves. I understand Side B throwing her into free fall, but those FAF frames on her smash attacks need to go down. She needs a Frame 1 reflector hitbox, and the reflector doesn't activate till frame 6. And faster startup and less endlag on Up B.

I didn't say she didn't, I just said that she's a character that's been revisited multiple times in the patches with genuine buff dumps compared to .

 

[Gawain]

Has anyone checked Falcon's frames? Pretty sure he's identical but I'd like to be sure.

 

[Meshima]

* Charizard's exact Usmash changes
* Possible parameter changes for: Diddy Kong, Fox, Cloud, ROB, Wii Fit, Yoshi, Zelda, Captain Falcon, Dark Pit

I believe that's it.

I couldn't find any changes on these character's weight/max walk speed/max run speed/horizontal air speed/fall speed/fast fall speed, except one thing.
Normal Cloud's run speed is definitely slower than Charizard now, whereas I and some people confirmed his run speed was same as Charizard(2) in 1.1.3. He seems around 1.96-1.97 now.
Cloud got nerfed or it's just my mistake?

edit:
Limit Break stats hasn't any changes in my testing.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

I confirmed Clowd without Limit Break


I couldn't find any changes on these character's weight/max walk speed/max run speed/horizontal air speed/fall speed/fast fall speed, except one thing.
Normal Cloud's run speed is definitely slower than Charizard now, whereas I and some people confirmed his run speed was same as Charizard(2) in 1.1.3. He seems around 1.96-1.97 now.
Cloud got nerfed or it's just my mistake?

edit:
Limit Break stats hasn't any changes in my testing.

Inb4 M2K drops Cloud even though the change is basically almost irrelevant. Nice find though, regardless.

 

[jet56]

I believe it was mentioned before, but i don't see it in the official patch notes, so imma gonna mention it anyways:

little mac got changes on his knockback for his smash attacks? i did some testing, (Bowser, Omega dreamland) and found some minor differences in his smashes:

up smash sweet spot: 99% pre patch, 100% post patch
up smash sour spot: 120% pre patch, 117% post patch

i also did Fsmash and Dsmash, but didn't find any difference. it was mentioned before in the discussion thread, i just wanted to know if this was indeed true.

 

[Kofu]

Regarding Yoshi's possible weight change, he gets knocked down by Falco's FTilt at the same percents as Link and Captain Falcon do who share his weight. So it's the same. Maybe it's a change to his gravity value?

 

[DJlive]

Regarding Yoshi's possible weight change, he gets knocked down by Falco's FTilt at the same percents as Link and Captain Falcon do who share his weight. So it's the same. Maybe it's a change to his gravity value?

In the Yoshi thread, weight was already tested. No change. No change in end lag values as well. Gravity might have been changed, wonder if someone could check that reliably.

 

[Masonomace]

So if Yoshi's gravity did change, then perhaps his Air Times would change, right? 'Cus Yoshi's Short Hop & Full Hop air times are the same this patch.

Did little mac get a wall jump buff? played against one today and he made it from duck hunt blastzone to ledge

I tested Little Mac's walljump with a custom stage. Pre-patch Little Mac lands on the 7th platform on this custom stage & post-patch Little Mac lands on the 7th platform still. But if you want maximum confirmation then a side-by-side comparison between two patches is required.

 

[Eureka]

I believe it was mentioned before, but i don't see it in the official patch notes, so imma gonna mention it anyways:

little mac got changes on his knockback for his smash attacks? i did some testing, (Bowser, Omega dreamland) and found some minor differences in his smashes:

up smash sweet spot: 99% pre patch, 100% post patch
up smash sour spot: 120% pre patch, 117% post patch

i also did Fsmash and Dsmash, but didn't find any difference. it was mentioned before in the discussion thread, i just wanted to know if this was indeed true.

The amount of knockback a move does is increased based on how much damage it deals. So because Little Mac's smashes got a damage increase they also do more knockback now. It's possible that the knockback values were also changed, but I'm pretty sure people have already looked though Mac's file and didn't find any.

 

[jespoke]

The amount of knockback a move does is increased based on how much damage it deals. So because Little Mac's smashes got a damage increase they also do more knockback now. It's possible that the knockback values were also changed, but I'm pretty sure people have already looked though Mac's file and didn't find any.

They looked through his files and DID find the knockback reductions, they are just still not in the patch notes

 

[Luigi player]

The amount of knockback a move does is increased based on how much damage it deals. So because Little Mac's smashes got a damage increase they also do more knockback now. It's possible that the knockback values were also changed, but I'm pretty sure people have already looked though Mac's file and didn't find any.

there are a few posts in this thread that mention the exact KB changes little macs smashes have, actually.
I don't know why everything gets so overlooked so easily, but I also wish every info-post would somehow be noted to find it again.

Also the pinned Patch 1.1.4 thread has a mistake for Little Macs utilt (should be frame 5 -> 4 (one frame faster), not the other way around).

Edit:

dug out the post:

Little mac's ACMD changes.

1. U-tilt: hitbox now comes out frame 4 from 5, and is out for 7 frames from 6. Angle was also changed from 0x55 -> 0x58
2. F-smash (angled up): sweetspot damage 19% - > 20%, Knockback growth reduced from 85 - > 81. Sourspot damage 17% - > 18%, knockback reduced from 85 - > 81
3. F-smash (standard): Same as above with base knockback for sweetspot and and sourspot increased from 30 -> 31
4. F-smash (angled down): Both hitboxes damage from 22% -> 24% and knockback growth decreased from 22 - > 21
5. U-smash (standard): Sweetspot damage increased 20% -> 21%, Knockback growth decreased 80 - > 76, sourspots damage increased 15% -> 16%, knockback growth reduced 100 - > 96
6. D-smash (standard): All hitboxes damage increased 12% -> 13%, knockback growth decreased 100 -> 94

a few of these are already in the patch notes, but a few aren't so i figured i'd just post all his changes.

One bothersome thing though, the patch notes say there were angle changes to d-smash, uthrow and dthrow, but i don't see these changes in my dumps? Dsmash's angle is still 30 for example.

 

[GP2]

Hey can someone teach me how to datamine so I can figure out the changes on Dark Pit? no one cares about his change at all not even the dark pit mains themselves.

 

[Tenhart]

Can anyone confirm the changes that were made to Cloud?

I couldn't find any changes on these character's weight/max walk speed/max run speed/horizontal air speed/fall speed/fast fall speed, except one thing.
Normal Cloud's run speed is definitely slower than Charizard now, whereas I and some people confirmed his run speed was same as Charizard(2) in 1.1.3. He seems around 1.96-1.97 now.
Cloud got nerfed or it's just my mistake?

edit:
Limit Break stats hasn't any changes in my testing.

I tested this on various stages and custom ones with long stretches of flat land, and found no noticeabel difference in their dash speeds in 1.1.4. According to 1.1.3 frame data, Charizard is ranked one slot above Cloud in dash speed anyway, even though I saw no difference. Cloud's dash speed value for 1.1.3 is absent though so I'm wondering about that ranking.


***Actually to correct myself after further testing, Cloud IS the most minute amount slower than Charizard when dashing it's hardly noticeable.

 

[Eureka]

They looked through his files and DID find the knockback reductions, they are just still not in the patch notes

there are a few posts in this thread that mention the exact KB changes little macs smashes have, actually.
I don't know why everything gets so overlooked so easily, but I also wish every info-post would somehow be noted to find it again.

Also the pinned Patch 1.1.4 thread has a mistake for Little Macs utilt (should be frame 5 -> 4 (one frame faster), not the other way around).

Edit:

dug out the post:

Ah, I didn't see that information looking through this thread, and I misread the post and thought it said the knockback was only increased so I assumed it was because of the damage changes. My b.

Maybe it would be helpful to gather all the changes that have been found but aren't in the patch notes yet and make a post with them in this thread?

 

[Dusk Pit]

Hey can someone teach me how to datamine so I can figure out the changes on Dark Pit? no one cares about his change at all not even the dark pit mains themselves.

I do. It's just beyond us mortals now to find it. Everything seems to be the same so the change is most likely something irrelevant. I want to know it too so could someone kindly look it up?

 

[jespoke]

GP2 D Dusk Pit I can't pinpoint what was changed, but i can tell you that it was in the effects folder, which as far as i understand only contains visual effects.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

***Actually to correct myself after further testing, Cloud IS the most minute amount slower than Charizard when dashing it's hardly noticeable.

Yes, these same results are also true of 1.13 and the custom stage I built. These two would have to be running for as long as a full minute without stopping for Charizard to pull ahead of Cloud.

Hey can someone teach me how to datamine so I can figure out the changes on Dark Pit? no one cares about his change at all not even the dark pit mains themselves.

You wouldn't have any luck, since none of his hitboxes were changed, and that's all dataminers can look at. And his endlag/landing lag wasn't changed either. A difference in base stats is unlikely given that Pit received no corresponding change. The only remaining possibility is a cosmetic effect.

 

[LRodC]

So Little Mac had knockback reductions on his smashes to make up for the damage increases. Does his overall knockback have a net increase overall, or is there little to no change?

 

[Furret24]

So Little Mac had knockback reductions on his smashes to make up for the damage increases. Does his overall knockback have a net increase overall, or is there little to no change?

They all kill about 5% sooner. Nothing huge, but it's something.

 

[LRodC]

They all kill about 5% sooner. Nothing huge, but it's something.

Gotcha. Does knockback ever directly affect shield pressure/damage or just the damage of the attacks?

 

[Furret24]

Gotcha. Does knockback ever directly affect shield pressure/damage or just the damage of the attacks?

Knockback doesn't affect damage output.

For the rest of your post, I'm sorry to say that I don't know. I believe someone else here might be able to answer your question though. :/

 

[Vipermoon]

Gotcha. Does knockback ever directly affect shield pressure/damage or just the damage of the attacks?

To directly answer your question. Damage is the only thing that affects shields.

 

[LRodC]

To directly answer your question. Damage is the only thing that affects shields.

Thanks. That makes sense and also explains why Cloud's Finishing Touch barely does any shield damage despite the KB.

 

[Shadow_13]

The fact that there are characters that stands above the rest of the characters in Sm4sh, such as the top 7, is precisely the reason why I think that certain characters needed to be buffed and that the characters who are basically in the higher tiers should receive little to no changes or nerfs. That way there won't be any bad match ups between certain character and that players can freely enjoy playing their mains no matter what.
Link is just a prior example of a character who I see struggles in certain areas during a match and needs to be buff and rebalanced. For example, his melee attacks don't allow for him to lead into follow ups very efficiently, making his combos unreliable sometimes, even in competitive play.

I will admit that I said "Top 7", but I will actually disagree with myself right now. Link does not struggle against a lot of people. Even if it was 7 out of 60, that sounds pretty balanced to me. His melee attacks may not be guaranteed follow-ups unless at low percents (Like SH Fair fast fall to Dtilt to SH Fair) but, his punish, read, and mixup game is god-like. It's amazing that Link really has one of the best keep away games without using a projectile. Ledge-Gaurding? Not a problem.

In my opinion, Link struggles against: Sonic, Rosalina, Ryu, Greninja, and Falco. A little bit against Villager and Ness.
There is 7, but not the top 7. Even ZSS and Sheik are not awful matchups in tournament play. Hard, but not awful.

 

[DanGR]

Hey guys just a reminder that when testing run speeds, try to differentiate between full fledged run speed and initial dash speed. They're very different.

 

[adom4]

I will admit that I said "Top 7", but I will actually disagree with myself right now. Link does not struggle against a lot of people. Even if it was 7 out of 60, that sounds pretty balanced to me. His melee attacks may not be guaranteed follow-ups unless at low percents (Like SH Fair fast fall to Dtilt to SH Fair) but, his punish, read, and mixup game is god-like. It's amazing that Link really has one of the best keep away games without using a projectile. Ledge-Gaurding? Not a problem.

In my opinion, Link struggles against: Sonic, Rosalina, Ryu, Greninja, and Falco. A little bit against Villager and Ness.
There is 7, but not the top 7. Even ZSS and Sheik are not awful matchups in tournament play. Hard, but not awful.

Why Falco of all characters?

 

[Shadow_13]

Why Falco of all characters?

Weird, right? Mainly it is that Fair and Nair cutting through most everything Link can throwout and his dash combos into those moves if he can safely use it. This was not the case nearly 4 patches ago.

 

[epicnights]

On a more on-topic point of discussion, are the ones that are marked as 'no changes' confirmed?

 

[MOI-ARI]

Why hasn't Zelda been updated? The only change was her final smash visuals ,and that was found like less than 20 hours after the patch. I guess it actually doesn't matter lmao.

Anything on wiifit trainer yet? I haven't kept with this thread in a day ;0

 

[Masonomace]

Also, Shulk wasn't changed in terms of parameters or frame data, but he got a ton of effect changes. Has to do with the Beam portion of the Monado & maybe other things. Basically our attacks / animations got more beautiful.

 

[Funtroon]

Can you guys test Jigglypuff's side b? It often loses momentum at random instances when used in the ground. Puff throws her hand and completely stays still in her position. This never happened in any of the previous patches.