The EVO-ruleset (continued...)

[Aesir]

Assumption again! I did not come in saying I know more, I came in saying things that are actually true but people toss aside because their intense research has proven otherwise! "Any character can win guys." NUH UH, TOURNAMENT STATISTICS SHOW ONLY THESE THREE CAN WIN. "Brawl is more balanced than Melee." NUH UH, I SEE TWO CHARACTERS BEING USED MOST OF THE TIME IN BRAWL TOURNAMENTS, WHEN MELEE HAD MORE, NOT LIKE FOX AND MARTH WERE OVERUSED OR ANYTHING.

you just contradicted your self.

Assumption again! I did not come in saying I know more,

Here you say you didn't come in here saying you knew more however..

I came in saying things that are actually true but people toss aside because their intense research has proven otherwise!

if our research proves other wise and you haven't done anything to refute it how does that make you look?

honestly how could it not be seen as you assuming you know more? lol.

 

[BigRick]

It doesn't work like that though lol.

many will pursuit you thats the thing, well maybe not many but they sometimes will you have to take into account to that attacking in brawl puts you at a disadvantage. All they have to is power shield your hit (which isn't very hard to begin with mind you.)

See what I'm getting at? unless the said player is leagues below your level chances of you pressuring them away from the item are low. I'm talking about two skilled players going at it.

Lets just say for instance the game is close you and are playing you basically have me beat and are just looking for that final opening to kill me when suddenly say, a bo-bomb spawns right next to me.

>_> how exactly is that skill?

True in Brawl the balance between offense and defense has shifted but not every attack puts you at a disadvantage... the better characters in the game do have some safe options. If your opponent shields or rolls the approach, then you have done your job.

Also in item matches games tend to be less close because of the very strong advantage that items give... the match becomes more of a ride the momentum-thing instead of a constant stalemate.

Assumption again! I did not come in saying I know more, I came in saying things that are actually true but people toss aside because their intense research has proven otherwise! "Any character can win guys." NUH UH, TOURNAMENT STATISTICS SHOW ONLY THESE THREE CAN WIN. "Brawl is more balanced than Melee." NUH UH, I SEE TWO CHARACTERS BEING USED MOST OF THE TIME IN BRAWL TOURNAMENTS, WHEN MELEE HAD MORE, NOT LIKE FOX AND MARTH WERE OVERUSED OR ANYTHING.

YOU were the one that brought up the subject... Th0rn only made a lil reference about char balance and it wasnt the main point of his post

Im not really in favor of image posting... but you were kinda asking for it

Be a man and stop acting like it wasnt your fault

 

[Aesir]

True in Brawl the balance between offense and defense has shifted but not every attack puts you at a disadvantage... the better characters in the game do have some safe options. If your opponent shields or rolls the approach, then you have done your job.

Also in item matches games tend to be less close because of the very strong advantage that items give... the match becomes more of a ride the momentum-thing instead of a constant stalemate.

That advantage is usually a completely random one though, you can't compensate for that, unless the person you're playing is just really bad.

But against a competent player? I don't think so.

edit: I over looked this but what? If they shield or roll away how is that good for you? this isn't melee where forcing those reactions was beneficial for you.

shielding in brawl is almost broken now, I kid you not when I say doing nothing is probably the best possible thing you can do.

The fact that theres no shield stun makes attacking shields pointless unless you wanna be grabbed, lets not also forget that anyone can power shield now.

You can seriously power shield then drop the shield and punish snake before the second hit of his ftilt.

Hell you can do that to most jab combos. I'm sorry but I have to question your knowledge of brawl after that post..

 

[BigRick]

That advantage is usually a completely random one though, you can't compensate for that, unless the person you're playing is just really bad.

But against a competent player? I don't think so.

edit: I over looked this but what? If they shield or roll away how is that good for you? this isn't melee where forcing those reactions was beneficial for you.

shielding in brawl is almost broken now, I kid you not when I say doing nothing is probably the best possible thing you can do.

The fact that theres no shield stun makes attacking shields pointless unless you wanna be grabbed, lets not also forget that anyone can power shield now.

You can seriously power shield then drop the shield and punish snake before the second hit of his ftilt.

Hell you can do that to most jab combos. I'm sorry but I have to question your knowledge of brawl after that post..

I dont see why you say that... forcing rolls/shields/spotdodges/techs is always going to be a good idea. It's true that they are harder to punish in Brawl but it can still be done through good yomiing or with moves that are extremely good at it (see ROB/Sheik and similar dsmashes) Also the reason why I mentionned it in the previous example is because an opponent using one of these defensive options wont be grabbing any item.

hmm about attacking shields no snake jab/ftilt combo is a bad example. the safest moves in Brawl are usually those with multihits that crosses the opponent up, still there's some regular pokes like MK's dtilt that can be used on shields with proper spacing. Yes I agree powershield ***** almost everything else that doesnt have enough shield knockback

and dont forget that you can pressure with ranged attacks also. If your opponent happens to try and bust out a reflector type special move, you just denied him the item.

Remember, this argument was about being able to pressure your opponent enough to prevent him from picking up an item. When you look at things in that context, sure it will be hard as usual to deal damage, but forcing him into using a defensive option is enough. Yes he could use something like a dash attack to quickly move and pick up the item, but in that case he leaves an opening.

 

[Rebel581]

And I don't play my little brother, I play people from Gamebattles who are pretty high up on the ladders. What a rude assumption of you, but hey, at least you're honest about who you play and who you watch. Makes some sense on what you'd know I guess!

I'm just going to point out something that I don't know why others didn't point out, but gamebattles? Isn't that online? Does it even have the best players? Online matches don't, and will never, count. To me, playing people on Gamebattles is like playing your little brother.

Also, shielding DOES seem broken in Brawl. And with Metaknight and Snake, they do threaten game balance, but it was inevitable that SOMEONE would threaten game balance. The counters to those character may just not be known at this current time.

Unfortunately, the pessimistic side to that, is if there aren't counters to them, Brawl degenerates and we return to Melee. People are making the assumption there aren't any counters a bit too quickly though...

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm just going to point out something that I don't know why others didn't point out, but gamebattles? Isn't that online? Does it even have the best players? Online matches don't, and will never, count. To me, playing people on Gamebattles is like playing your little brother.

Also, shielding DOES seem broken in Brawl. And with Metaknight and Snake, they do threaten game balance, but it was inevitable that SOMEONE would threaten game balance. The counters to those character may just not be known at this current time.

Unfortunately, the pessimistic side to that, is if there aren't counters to them, Brawl degenerates and we return to Melee. People are making the assumption there aren't any counters a bit too quickly though...

Neither of those two are as overwhelming as they first seem. And its already been established one of Snake's most effective counters is ROB. Nearly one-sided if you play a good ROB. Some other counters include Pikachu, Fox (not sure about Wolf/Falco), a slight advantage for DeDeDe, and maybe even Olimar. Given time you'll realize that Snake isn't the beast you first thought he was. Against Metaknight... just get someone that has a good upwards KO attack and you're set. Hell, even DK can be a counter to MK if played right. People are very quick to jump on the "OMG they're so broken!" bandwagon. They think the characters are too good to beat instead of thinking of how to beat them =/

By the way, that guy you responded to was banned. And yes, Gamebattles is the online thing for MLG. I've heard there are some pretty good players but I don't know that for sure.

 

[Rebel581]

I saw he was banned >_> You guys banned him before I could get my snappy one liner. So I said it anyways.

Either way, I just gotta find a way for Pit to beat those two. Pit's solid, but having incredible uphill battles against the current two best characters won't bode well in the future. I also found that Marth has a decently easy time with Snake, and he does well against Metaknight. It's more even against MK though. And if MK uses the tornado, Marth can just counter.

Yet, IMO, Marth's not very good >_> He gets gimped too easily. I'm liking how the Brawl scene is starting to turn out though. People are starting to dominate more and the matches between good and bad people are widening in how much they're beaten by. More and more advanced techniques are being found too. While Pit can't really use boost smashing or any of those other advanced techniques, he's got a bunch of Pit specific things he can do.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about Marth. Depending on your playstyle, Marth can counter Snake or get countered by Snake. Although, you're right when you say that Pit definitely does not have an easy time with those two. And I'm pretty sure he has the most ATs of any single character.

 

[Yuna]

I disagree.


I didnt know you can hit the lakitu bro or w/e that dude's name is lol


but seriously, those vids were pretty helpful. thx

Yes, the videos had a lot to teach people... who never play with items on. It's not like the videos contained any new highly unknown techniques for avoiding assist trophies. Of course, if you never play with items on, you might not know some of these things.

But some of us actually do. Doesn't make items less broken.

Aesir try grabbing an item while you're getting your butt kicked. It wont be easy even though it spawned right next to you.

Stage Control is useless since items spawn progressively closer to the players the longer the game keeps on going, no matter who's in the lead, meaning both have the same chances of getting an item. Stage Control is only significant if one player is standing on one end of the stage and the other in the middle.

Nothing's to stop the game from giving out really good items the 25% of the match when you're in control of the stage and me nothing good at all the 50% while I'm in control. In fact, it happens all the time. Of course you can't randomly grab items while being comboed. Doesn't mean it's suddenly fair or all about Stage Control.

Just because the game is unbalanced doesn't mean we should make it more unbalanced.

 

[Aesir]

Lol bigrick.

Lag it exists, the multihit thing exists but honestly thats not really going to pressure someone for long as theres no real way to follow up with it, you do that to someone whats going to stop them to get you with a shield drop whatever?

Unless you're using someone like Olimar who has very good range (then again he doesn't moves like that so you could just power shield whatever and hit him.


This comes down to the point of what Yuna said, unless you've forced them to the edge the item drop rate is going to be even for both of you, and pressuring is something easily dealt with in brawl.

 

[BigRick]

Stage Control is useless since items spawn progressively closer to the players the longer the game keeps on going, no matter who's in the lead, meaning both have the same chances of getting an item. Stage Control is only significant if one player is standing on one end of the stage and the other in the middle.

Nothing's to stop the game from giving out really good items the 25% of the match when you're in control of the stage and me nothing good at all the 50% while I'm in control. In fact, it happens all the time. Of course you can't randomly grab items while being comboed. Doesn't mean it's suddenly fair or all about Stage Control.

Just because the game is unbalanced doesn't mean we should make it more unbalanced.

I didn't even mention stage control in my post, this has been debunked already.

''Of course you can't randomly grab items while being comboed.''

That is actually the point of my previous post. If forced into a defensive position your opponent can easily avoid damage but he has a harder time getting the item. If you end up getting the item it will be much harder for him to avoid damage. I really dont understand why you wouldn't consider that being fair.

Lol bigrick.

Lag it exists, the multihit thing exists but honestly thats not really going to pressure someone for long as theres no real way to follow up with it, you do that to someone whats going to stop them to get you with a shield drop whatever?

Unless you're using someone like Olimar who has very good range (then again he doesn't moves like that so you could just power shield whatever and hit him.

This comes down to the point of what Yuna said, unless you've forced them to the edge the item drop rate is going to be even for both of you, and pressuring is something easily dealt with in brawl.

Again the point of pressuring in my example is not to directly deal damage. It's to gain an temporary advantage (item) that will help you deal damage against strong defensive options.

 

[Aesir]

I didn't even mention stage control in my post, this has been debunked already.

''Of course you can't randomly grab items while being comboed.''

That is actually the point of my previous post. If forced into a defensive position your opponent can easily avoid damage but he has a harder time getting the item. If you end up getting the item it will be much harder for him to avoid damage. I really dont understand why you wouldn't consider that being fair.



Again the point of pressuring in my example is not to directly deal damage. It's to gain an temporary advantage (item) that will help you deal damage against strong defensive options.

If you can prove this in practice I'll agree, but honestly I've never seen this done ever >_>

So I'm just asking you for evidence now lol.

 

[BigRick]

If you can prove this in practice I'll agree, but honestly I've never seen this done ever >_>

So I'm just asking you for evidence now lol.

Lol yea I understand you dont have to believe without raw evidence. I dont have anything to upload my own stuff so Ill have to look it up. In the meantime you could try it yourself if you happen to play with items sumtime.

edit: example of what I meant at 0:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrFLy8Eji-4 first the threat of marth's aerials leaves ddd in his shield, then when he goes for an item grab with a dash attack he gets punished for it

 

[takieddine]

True competitive players would support the EVO ruleset. Brawl is a broken game at its core, so why bother?

Brawl isnt a fighting game, its a party game, so its best to keep it that way. If you want a competitive game play Melee, 3rd strike, MvC, or any other good fighter.

 

[RDK]

True competitive players would support the EVO ruleset. Brawl is a broken game at its core, so why bother?

Brawl isnt a fighting game, its a party game, so its best to keep it that way. If you want a competitive game play Melee, 3rd strike, MvC, or any other good fighter.

The whole point of trying to amend the EVO ruleset is that hopefully at some point they'll change it back to the non-b@stardized version, and it'll be just a little less broken because of it.

Although IMO, why bother anyway? It's Brawl.

Also, I find it funny that you think MvC2 is balanced.

 

[th0rn]

Also, I find it funny that you think MvC2 is balanced.

He was saying it was competitive.

 

[Zankoku]

He said good fighter, not balanced fighter.

 

[RDK]

He was saying it was competitive.

He said good fighter, not balanced fighter.

My bad; disregard.

 

[BigRick]

Also, I find it funny that you think MvC2 is balanced.

he wasn't talking about character balance

To Aesir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZY_xNj6RRk : at 3:48 Last stock, both characters at high percents and a hothead spawns advantageously for one character... it turns into a nice little skirmish and the winner gets rewarded with an advantage that helps him win the game

and Lucky did a nice move there, avoiding marth's bair with a dash away from the item, putting himself in good range for using his ftilt that forced marth to defend against it which prevented him from grabbing the item

 

[Smooth Criminal]

he wasn't talking about character balance

To Aesir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZY_xNj6RRk : at 3:48 Last stock, both characters at high percents and a hothead spawns advantageously for one character... it turns into a nice little skirmish and the winner gets rewarded with an advantage that helps him win the game

and Lucky did a nice move there, avoiding marth's bair with a dash away from the item, putting himself in good range for using his ftilt that forced marth to defend against it which prevented him from grabbing the item

Oh, wow. Camping for AND against items! Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.


Smooth Criminal

 

[BigRick]

Oh, wow. Camping for AND against items! Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.


Smooth Criminal

since you just came in and you dont seem to know what we were talking about I was actually talking about applying pressure

stop acting like a fool plz

 

[RDK]

he wasn't talking about character balance

To Aesir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZY_xNj6RRk : at 3:48 Last stock, both characters at high percents and a hothead spawns advantageously for one character... it turns into a nice little skirmish and the winner gets rewarded with an advantage that helps him win the game

and Lucky did a nice move there, avoiding marth's bair with a dash away from the item, putting himself in good range for using his ftilt that forced marth to defend against it which prevented him from grabbing the item

Are you arguing FOR items, or AGAINST them?

 

[BigRick]

Are you arguing FOR items, or AGAINST them?

Im just there to correct mistakes made from both parties.

But if the argument is about item Brawl being viable or not for competitive play then you can consider that Im for items cause I consider both modes to be viable.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

since you just came in and you dont seem to know what we were talking about I was actually talking about applying pressure

stop acting like a fool plz

o.O; I wasn't acting like a fool. I was just making an uneducated observation that still holds water, regardless. Strip away the talk of "pressure" and this is what you get:

Players are either camping for items or are camping against other players so that they don't get items.

If I wanted to play a game like this, I'll pick up an FPS.

Smooth Criminal

 

[BigRick]

o.O; I wasn't acting like a fool. I was just making an uneducated observation that still holds water, regardless. Strip away the talk of "pressure" and this is what you get:

Players are either camping for items or are camping against other players so that they don't get items.

If I wanted to play a game like this, I'll pick up an FPS.

Smooth Criminal

I think that the word pressure is better than the word camping because in my examples player A had to attack player B in order to deny him the item.

He put himself at a risk but at the end it was worth it. With reduced effectiveness of combos and punishment options in no-item Brawl, would that agressive behavior been worth it?

So yes the concept ressembles that of FPSes... now does that make it a different game? Definitely. Inferior? No. And it's alright if you dont like it, you dont have to.

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

In retrospect, I realize that no rule set is inferior to any other. Dude, chill out guys. If someone wants to do a curry brawl tourney, let them have it. Special rules make the game FUN and INTERESTING as well as provide DEPTH.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

In retrospect, I realize that no rule set is inferior to any other. Dude, chill out guys. If someone wants to do a curry brawl tourney, let them have it. Special rules make the game FUN and INTERESTING as well as provide DEPTH.

Neutrally speaking, it makes things interesting and different. As for your claim of depth and fun? Well, that's just an opinion. Many of the people don't like our bare-bones "No items/Fox only/Final Destination" ruleset but some of us here actually find it infinitely more dynamic and compelling than a campfest for items (<---- My opinion there; sorry about that).

Smooth Criminal

 

[vigiliante]

I think the way EVO has there rules doesn't promote item camping at all. I mean if you camp and wait for items then you will probably get detroyed. It makes the game more aggersive and you have to stay on your toes. I mean the smash ball could change a game completely because of the fact that if your ahead by 2 stock then your oppenent gets the smash ball it could change the game completely. I am going to be honest I am stuck in the middle because I like both items/no-items.

 

[Samochan]

I think the way EVO has there rules doesn't promote item camping at all. I mean if you camp and wait for items then you will probably get detroyed. It makes the game more aggersive and you have to stay on your toes. I mean the smash ball could change a game completely because of the fact that if your ahead by 2 stock then your oppenent gets the smash ball it could change the game completely. I am going to be honest I am stuck in the middle because I like both items/no-items.

You know that items crater to players? >_> Therefore, the more you stand on certain spot, the better chance there is that item spawns next to you to collect becuase the game engine does not need to read your movement and switch between spawn points. = Promotes camping.

And loads of good chars can camp really effectively and they destroy others by doing so. It's no biggie for snake to camp a lot.

 

[Sliq]

In retrospect, I realize that no rule set is inferior to any other. Dude, chill out guys. If someone wants to do a curry brawl tourney, let them have it. Special rules make the game FUN and INTERESTING as well as provide DEPTH.

No. You are wrong.

 

[vigiliante]

You know that items crater to players? >_> Therefore, the more you stand on certain spot, the better chance there is that item spawns next to you to collect becuase the game engine does not need to read your movement and switch between spawn points. = Promotes camping.

And loads of good chars can camp really effectively and they destroy others by doing so. It's no biggie for snake to camp a lot.

Yes I did that is why it promotes for more aggrresive play in matches. How many players are really going to just stand there and wait for the items to spawn? Nobody is going to let you just stand there and get what you want you have to work for it. If you see that you are going to play against a snake then why don't you just use Wario. He eats EVERYTHING pretty much and if played right can destroy snake no problem.

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

No. You are wrong.

Do you have any valid tourney proof that Curry Brawl is Broken? Just from a technical perspective, Curry Brawl encourages a deep gameplay engine by rewarding players who are able to DI properly. It also helps balance out Brawl's broken edgeguarding game.

 

[Rebel581]

Do you have any valid tourney proof that Curry Brawl is Broken? Just from a technical perspective, Curry Brawl encourages a deep gameplay engine by rewarding players who are able to DI properly. It also helps balance out Brawl's broken edgeguarding game.

No. You are wrong.

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

Well, ok. Maybe curry brawl is a bit of a drastic change from the modes reactionary players are used to playing. How about a Camera Mode tourney for Melee?

 

[thesage]

WTF @ camera mode lol. Camera mode is the same thing excpet p4 can move around the camera. Wow. He doesn't even need to focus on the players lol.

 

[BigRick]

You know that items crater to players? >_> Therefore, the more you stand on certain spot, the better chance there is that item spawns next to you to collect becuase the game engine does not need to read your movement and switch between spawn points. = Promotes camping.

And loads of good chars can camp really effectively and they destroy others by doing so. It's no biggie for snake to camp a lot.

Your theory is wrong Samochan. There was no camping for items at the FFA Brawl tourney.

That is all.

Do you have any valid tourney proof that Curry Brawl is Broken? Just from a technical perspective, Curry Brawl encourages a deep gameplay engine by rewarding players who are able to DI properly. It also helps balance out Brawl's broken edgeguarding game.

lawl

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Dude 75m should be allowed, the ladders add ladder combat which show true skill.

 

[Ghaleon]

lol at least don't feel alone, guys -- players from almost every other game (3s; MvC2; VF; ST; and GG = axed!) have beefs w/ Evo this year.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

What'd they do to 3s and MvC2?

 

[rogueyoshi]

iirc they ran single elim on certain tourneys due to time restraints.

anyways, i think that what needs to be done is a brawl side tourney at evo with REAL rules. for this to be a success however, people need to show up for evo and support the cause.