The eternal debate: How will Brawl be controlled? CONTROLLER DISCUSSION HERE

[Erk Aduro]

You do relize i hate the ****ty playstation controller and if i had to play smash with that rubbish it would ruin it for me... i wouldn't mind playing smash with a new proper controller in five years but not with this stupid playstation controller! (Those idiots sony cant even be bothered to change it between generations the **** fools).

No, I don't realize that. Nor was that the point. Not only that, but personally I think all three will be usable. So I don't think you'll be forced to use any particular one of the three at all. My point was that I have a hard time believing that using the Classic Controller would have as a big an impact as you seem to think. Suppose I should have made that clearer. :\

Also, the button lay out is more similar to the SNES controller than the Playstation controller.

 

[Legolastom]

Ah i see what you were getting at but add the two analogue sticks and its similar to the playstation controller.

 

[soaz]

im starting to hope for the gc controller since i ordered a wawebird controller today:D

 

[Sensai]

I think I'm going to pass on the Playstation analogy, as I a) effing hate those controllers and b) think it more closely resembles a SNES controller.

It's still not preferable to the GC controller. Didn't say it didn't work, but there's no point in using it for the sake of using the Wiimote.

False. To us, most would prefer the GC, but to Nintendo and a lot of other people, the Wii remote is going to be all they have. They're not going to want to continue to manufacture GC controllers.

Then...why do you put the CC first in your list of controllers? If the Wiimote is pretty much just as good and more convienient? I don't follow your logic through. Rhetorical questions by the way since he won't respond to this. If anyone feels like taking up the argument, feel free.

I think he put it, the CC, on top because he feels that that is what Nintendo will push. He and I (probably others, too, but I know for a fact that we do) place things on our list in the order that we believe Nintendo will use the controllers (did that make sense? You know what I mean.).

Buying extra controllers = more money spent by consumers = more annoyed consumers.

=more money made by Nintendo. They're a company and they want more money, always. Also, somewhat related, they don't want to continue making GC controllers for one game, as it would make them lose money (indirectly and/or directly).

 

[Mr.GAW]

Listen, Vali, I know I said I wouldn't post here anymore, but I have this need to make people see the light.

Rather than ridicule you, I'm going to keep it simple.

This is what I said:

Upon looking at Sensai's post and re-evaluating takun's last post, I think we can all agree the most likely to be used is the:

CC followed by the
Wiimote and Chuck
Followed by the GC controller.

This is what you think I said:

Upon looking at Sensai's post and re-evaluating takun's last post, I think we can all agree this is the order of best controllers to be used for Brawl:

CC followed by the
Wiimote and Chuck
Followed by the GC controller.

I NEVER SAID THAT THE WII REMOTE AND NUNCHUCK WAS A BETTER CONTROLLER IN TERMS OF ACTUALLY PLAYING BRAWL.

I just said that it was ridiculous to not put the Wii Remote and Nunchuck in when the GC controller isn't even THAT much better.

I ALSO NEVER SAID DON'T PUT THE GC CONTROLLER IN.

I don't know how you come up with this crazy stuff, but I never said it. If you take those two points into consideration, you will realize that all of your arguments are moot and stupid.

Please read from now on.

 

[Yellow Mage]

Whole other option not even thought of: Brawl uses a currently unknown attachment to the Wii Remote, be it a la Nunchuck, a la CC, or a la something that only the minds at Nintendo could possibly think of.

I'm not a mind of Nintendo, but nobody thought of the possibility of a more solid attachment. One that links to the Wii Remote not through a wire plug, but through itself. The Wii Remote then becomes part of a bigger controller, with more options as far as functionality goes.

So instead of arguing over what finite options we currently have, how about thinking about the infinite possibilities open to us?

 

[Vali]

Listen, Vali, I know I said I wouldn't post here anymore, but I have this need to make people see the light.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. It's appreciated.

I NEVER SAID THAT THE WII REMOTE AND NUNCHUCK WAS A BETTER CONTROLLER IN TERMS OF ACTUALLY PLAYING BRAWL.

I just said that it was ridiculous to not put the Wii Remote and Nunchuck in when the GC controller isn't even THAT much better.

I ALSO NEVER SAID DON'T PUT THE GC CONTROLLER IN.

And you also said, as you've tried to make very clear in your post, that you think that the Wiimote/Nunchuck combination is more likely than the GC controller preference. I also know that you never said that they wouldn't include the GC controller as an option, which is a bit ironic coming from you as you accused me of saying that the I thought the Wiimote should never be implemented as an option - which of course I didn't.

What I'm saying is that they're going to use the control scheme which works the best and is already available to the majority. They're also going to optimise the control scheme for Brawl (with whatever new features they decide to add, if any) for the main form of control scheme. It's incredibly rare where a multiple controller option is available and the alternative control schemes working better. That said, if you think the GC controller will be the least likely to be used, I'm saying that it'll probably end up the worst. Say if they chose to simplify the control scheme for Brawl and have it working perfectly for the Wiimote then there'd be no reason to use the CC or GC because it's optimal on the Wiimote, yeah?

Melee has also sold over the years around 6 million copies, which at the moment is more than there are Wii's out there. It's incredibly likely that anyone who bought Melee will buy Brawl, assuming they have a Wii (or will be able to get their hands on one soon after Brawl's release if they haven't been able to get one yet/are waiting to buy one for Brawl). That's one hell of a lot of gamers with GC controllers. Since the GC controllers and the CC are both used for VC games, anyone that downloads from the VC will either have a GC or a CC as long as they have at least 1 game that requires the use of a controller other than the Wiimote. So what I'm asking you is why would you put the GC at the bottom of the most likely to use list?

Surely if the CC is the most likely control scheme to be used, although I don't really understand that point because even though it works the best it is no doubt the rarest of the 3, then why not the GC in second place even? I admit that the Wiimote probably wouldn't be that much worse than the GC controller but when the majority of people that will buy Brawl will already have a GC controller, why would Sakurai and co. not use it as a primary method of playing? The differences too between it and the CC would mean that both could be used easily with a control scheme that'd work optimally for both and it seems stupid to me that we should use the Wiimote/Nunchuck, but again it would be necessary to include it as an option.

GC > CC > Wiimote I can understand, CC > GC > Wiimote I can kinda see yeah, CC > Wiimote > GC...na, you lost me.

False. To us, most would prefer the GC, but to Nintendo and a lot of other people, the Wii remote is going to be all they have. They're not going to want to continue to manufacture GC controllers.

The majority of people buying Brawl will be people that have already bought Melee. The people that will be buying Brawl after never having played Melee before is going to be in the minority (which won't be a hell of a lot) and they wouldn't have to manufacture GC controllers due to the classic controller option. As I said already, most pople that own a Wii will have downloaded a VC game that requires either GCC or CC and they will most likley have a CC if they didn't already have a GCC.

I think he put it, the CC, on top because he feels that that is what Nintendo will push. He and I (probably others, too, but I know for a fact that we do) place things on our list in the order that we believe Nintendo will use the controllers (did that make sense? You know what I mean.).

Yeah, I know what you mean, and I can see why you might put the CC on top, but with the GC design being incredibly similar in button layout and analogue sticks etc. I see no reason to push the Wiimote over the GC.

=more money made by Nintendo. They're a company and they want more money, always. Also, somewhat related, they don't want to continue making GC controllers for one game, as it would make them lose money (indirectly and/or directly).

Continued production of the Wavebird wouldn't exactly lose them money if they didn't do it in large amounts, since people might buy a couple for the VC games that work well with it as well as Brawl, but as the point stands they wouldn't need to manufacture GCCs due to the CC.

 

[Meira]

I know you guys are in the heat of the debate, But last I heard they were going to stick with the GC controller. Of course this was a while ago, and I'm not sure if Nintendo decided to change their minds ( I don't know why they would) But I say the best Bet is the GC controler. I haven't used the CC, so I can't really see myself playing Smash with it.

 

[Creo]

I don't know if you guys know it but I have a regular WaveBird and one with the same button places as the CC. It is harder with the second one definitely.

 

[Sensai]

Melee has also sold over the years around 6 million copies, which at the moment is more than there are Wii's out there.

That's not true. Heh. I'm just being a nitpicky *******, though. It's sold upwards of 7 million, but your point still stands. I just figured I'd enlighten you.

The majority of people buying Brawl will be people that have already bought Melee. The people that will be buying Brawl after never having played Melee before is going to be in the minority (which won't be a hell of a lot) and they wouldn't have to manufacture GC controllers due to the classic controller option.

There's no way of proving the first part at all, though. If it had come out in December, I'm pretty sure that that would've been safe to say. However, it's coming out a year later. Now that the normal people (i.e., not camping out for weeks) are able to grab one, there's no telling how many people will or will not pick it up. I believe you're right, though, in saying that people who played Melee are more inclined to play Brawl, just as people who played Smash 64 were more inclined to play Melee. But the number grew, didn't it? Smash 64 to Melee saw a huge improvement. I don't think there's any need for me to continue with that analogy, as you've already got it.

The second half of your quote confuses me. Are you saying that Nintendo won't have to continue manufacturing GC controllers as people will be able to use CCs? If so, that makes sense, but it still doesn't explain why they would even use GC controllers in the first place.

Yellow Mage: that's possible. Not likely, but possible. It's also possible that Kyoto blows up due to a long-overdue volcano. Not likely, but possible.

 

[Mr.GAW]

Thank you for not responding in such a manner as I did, I know the all caps probably came off a little harsh, so I appreciate you being mature in that matter. I still have a number of problems with your ideas, however.

And you also said, as you've tried to make very clear in your post, that you think that the Wiimote/Nunchuck combination is more likely than the GC controller preference.

Right, it's good to have that clarified.

I also know that you never said that they wouldn't include the GC controller as an option,

Really? Based on your last post, I would think you didn't know that, but w/e. Good to have that clarified too.

which is a bit ironic coming from you as you accused me of saying that the I thought the Wiimote should never be implemented as an option - which of course I didn't.

When did I say that? If I did, I take it back, but I don't think I did .

What I'm saying is that they're going to use the control scheme which works the best and is already available to the majority.

Can we both agree it is likely they will use all three? It would be easier if I had that clarified.
Anyways, the one that is already available to the majority is the Wiimote and Nunchuck.

Think about it, 100% of Wii owners have a Wii Remote and Nunchuck.

I'd say 65-75% already have a GC controller.

About the one that works better, I'll agree that would be the GC controller. I've made it very clear, however, that the Wii Remote and Nunchuck would work very close to as good as the GC controller. That 25-35% difference in majority is a bigger issue to Nintendo than the 2 extra buttons on the GC controller, IMO.

They're also going to optimise the control scheme for Brawl (with whatever new features they decide to add, if any) for the main form of control scheme.

I can agree with that.

It's incredibly rare where a multiple controller option is available and the alternative control schemes working better.

I wouldn't say incredibly rare. There's not a whole lot of Nintendo games out there with multiple controller options to compare too. I've actually heard that the GC controller works very well with DBZ for the Wii.

That said, if you think the GC controller will be the least likely to be used, I'm saying that it'll probably end up the worst.

No, I wouldn't say that at all. The GC controller has all the buttons neccesary for Brawl, and it would probably play a lot like melee.

I think you take into consideration the gameplay too much when it comes to the most likely to be used. Nintendo cares about money, and POSSIBLY convienience for consumers, but mainly money.

Say if they chose to simplify the control scheme for Brawl and have it working perfectly for the Wiimote then there'd be no reason to use the CC or GC because it's optimal on the Wiimote, yeah?

Well, if it worked perfectly on the Wii Remote, there wouldn't really be a reason to have the CC, but the GC would still be probable for gamers that had a GCN though.

I don't think the Wii Remote would work perfectly though, I might've said that,( in my control scheme post.) but it was definetly exaggeration if I did. All I meant to say was that the Wii Remote could work fine for Brawl.



I'll edit the rest later, ima go somewhere now.

 

[Sensai]

I am an idiot. Please, ignore this post.

 

[Lemon Drop]

This is pretty sweet seeing a item using the C Stick for a different purpose rather than just throwing them

 

[Mr.GAW]

It said control stick, not C-Stick, Lemon Drop.

This means sort of like firing a gun but with tilts, and since all three control schemes have a control stick, it tells us nothing.

 

[MzNetta]

well this eliminates those sideways wiimote theories at the very least

 

[Cisne]

It said control stick, not C-Stick, Lemon Drop.

This means sort of like firing a gun but with tilts, and such a three control schemes have a control stick, it tells us everything.

Ok smart guy , move with 1 stick aim with other.

using tilts or triggering the use of the stick with 1 buttom is NOT good.

 

[Mr.GAW]

^^^ I think your wrong. How would you throw the gun or smash then? And I doubt that all weapons automatically fire while your holding them. For example, the super scope. How are you supposed to shoot it wiht A, aim it with C-Stick, and move with control stick all at once?
(Think GC controller)

 

[Legolastom]

you can just aim diagonally and it will stay in that position until you change it its not that hard.

 

[Fawriel]

You could aim with the Wii-Mote!

*is shot*

 

[Cisne]

GOD NO , wiimote is not designed for this game

why so much posting when sakurai said "dont throw ur gc pads" ? -_-
its like hes saying " dont throw them , they r pretty"

U can throw items with Z

EDIT:MR. GAW If u think it that way , how are we going to release the final smash ?

 

[Legolastom]

*Gets out cracker launcher... shoots fawriel*

I don't know why people would even care about the wiimote i would stop playing smash if i had to use that rubbish! (For smash)

 

[ecstatic]

Mr. GAW, I've agreed with most everything you've said so far (I've been reading, not posting in this topic.), but here you're a bit off. They never said you'd be able to aim anything other than the cracker launcher. And the cracker launches automatically (well, that's how I interpret

After you grab this item, it’ll rapidly release blast after blast of firecrackers that explode gaudily.

), so you'll only need two thumbs for that.


Away from arguing, the one thing one might infer from the new update from:

You can walk around and jump while holding the launcher.

You can also aim the launcher at different angles by tilting the Control Stick up or down.

Is that in order to walk, jump, and aim simaltaneously, you'd need two control sticks. The only plausible argument that this may not be the case is that I assumed that the movements could be simaltaneous. Here's some evidence that supports, but not proves, the same-time-ness:

Freedom and ease of use have gotten a real upgrade.

My point, that people have probably already figured out before this post, is that the Wiimote+Nunchuck option may not be possible after all. (And Wiimote only is definetly not happening.)

 

[Cisne]

omg thank you. Its not like the smashers hate the wiimote , but that controller is not going to work with smash

 

[Legolastom]

Exactly the wii mote i great for some thing.
But wit just does not work for everything.

 

[Erk Aduro]

...What? Okay, I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument at all. You move the control left and right to move left and right. You tilt it up or down to aim up or down. To jump, you'd more than likely have to press a jump button.

Where's this "you need two control sticks" nonsense coming form? You wanna move left while aiming up? Tilt it diagonally up and left. This update doesn't imply anything about how many control sticks will be needed aside from that we'll need at least one. :\

 

[Sensai]

That was what my post (seen at the top of this page saying 'ignore this') was about, actually. I read it and automatically assumed you needed two control sticks.

You don't, really...

[Edit:]

Last page, rather.

 

[Yellow Mage]

Whole other option not even thought of: Brawl uses a currently unknown attachment to the Wii Remote, be it a la Nunchuck, a la CC, or a la something that only the minds at Nintendo could possibly think of.

I'm not a mind of Nintendo, but nobody thought of the possibility of a more solid attachment. One that links to the Wii Remote not through a wire plug, but through itself. The Wii Remote then becomes part of a bigger controller, with more options as far as functionality goes.

So instead of arguing over what finite options we currently have, how about thinking about the infinite possibilities open to us?

*sigh* Nobody pays attention anymore, do they?

Along with the concept of the unheard of, there's also the concept of the universal. As in, different play styles can use different controller setups. I would like to point out that this is a possibility that can be exploited when Sakurai Masahiro finally puts something into that "Game Modes" section of his "DOJO!!" site.

Though to me, somebody using a Wiimote hybrid seetup against someone using a GC seems kind of awkward, not to mention nearly impossible to program. The Wii itself is not natively compatible with the Gamecude Controller unless it's running non-Wii software. Anybody who has tried to open thier Gamecube games on thier Wii using merely a Gamecube controller knows this fact first hand.

Though a setup of one controller style versus another may be impossible, that doesn't mean different style "modes" aren't. That would mean you would have to come to an agreement with your opponent about your method of fighting, though, and then select your mutual mode of choice. This will also make sense on a global scale, as Cross-Controller over the Internet seems just as improbable, if not even moreso, than Cross-Controller locally. Just select your prefered mode, hop on WiiConnect24, and battle like-minded people with similar Controllers!

Although I have created a new hypothesis, I still stand by my original one just as much.

 

[mezbomber]

geez... I was really trying to read all 20-some pages of posts before adding my two cents (as to keep my opinions relevant), but when I came across the 89th person to comment on the DOJO "how to play" icon, I snapped. Now, I don't know whether we're going to be using n64 controllers for Brawl, or guitar hero controllers, or...nm
*composes thoughts*


here's some things I find interesting:
1) nintendo brand GC controllers have been pulled from current distribution. I noticed this soon after Nintendo announced that it would no longer be developing new cube games. (i don't have a link to confirm this, please don't flame me.) This doesn't make them impossible to find, just harder.

2) sakurai stating that you may not want to throw away your GCN, hints at the fact while not being enough to confirm anything concretely. At best, it offers the possibility that GCN will possibly be on of several possibilities...possibly.

3) sakurai stating that too much motion sensory controls would ruin the game does not confirm their absolute absence. I don't think it confirms their presence, either. I find the operating words in his statement to be "too much". TP didn't really incorporate vast amounts of motion controls.

4) Sakurai knows what he's doing

5) since all we have to go on is pure speculation...we should not be close minded as to possibilities for control schemes. When n00bs say that advanced techniques ruin melee, they are told to adapt and persist. The same applies to people who can't fathom Brawl using anything but the GCN controller. ADAPT AND PERSIST with the motivation of an olympian.

6) I once thought the "don't throw away your GCN controllers" was pretty much confirmation...so, why did Nintendo stop making them? I speculate (repeat SPECULATE) that Nintendo may re-release GCN controllers. After all, they are a business, and they do like money. How many releases of Super Mario Bros. for NES has there been? the solo cartridge, as well as several package cartridges (w/ Duck Hunt, and then again w/ Duck Hunt plus some other game?), and then SNES all-stars, and then the GBA re-re-release, and now the VC release.

the point is, if you're going to speculate, understand that you're just speculating. Have faith in Sakurai (for he is not employed for being a bum), and don't be close-minded to the possibilities.

My personal opinion is that I hope to use the GCN (obviously, because it's familiar), however I don't see how giving other options would "ruin" the game. I mainly wanted to bring up my first point, but had to add the others after reading the previous posts on this thread.

 

[Caael]

Notice in the new update, it says

You can also aim the launcher at different angles by tilting the Control Stick up or down.

That rules out the Wiimote on it's side.

 

[Mr.GAW]

A little late, Caael.

Anyway, I think it's ridiculous to think that you would use two control sticks to aim the gun.

HOW IN THE **** ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO FIRE THE WEAPONS THAT AREN'T AUTOMATIC WHILE YOUR TWO THUMBS ARE RESTING ON TWO CONTROL STICKS?

And Ecstatic, I disagree completely. Why would the cracker launcher be the only weapon you can aim? That's ridiculous. And you could aim with one control stick, just not while running. Whoever said you could aim while running anyway? The pic where Mario and Fox are aiming shows them STATIONARY.

Yellowmage: Why would it be hard for a person playing with a Wii Remote and Nunchuck to face a player with a GC controller? I don't know why you think that's tough programming. Also, they aren't gonna make a new peripheral for Brawl. Period. They have the CC, the Wiimote, and the GC controller.

EDIT:MR. GAW If u think it that way , how are we going to release the final smash ?

Wtf are you talking about? With a button- but I don't see how that relates.

 

[Vali]

Anyway, I think it's ridiculous to think that you would use two control sticks to aim the gun.

HOW IN THE **** ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO FIRE THE WEAPONS THAT AREN'T AUTOMATIC WHILE YOUR TWO THUMBS ARE RESTING ON TWO CONTROL STICKS?

Meh, it's feasible but kind've impractical. Assuming you only have to press A once to fire the multiple rounds as suggested in Sakurai's post it's pretty doable. Run along, start aiming up or down with the C-stick, fire when appropriate and then you could use your thumb again for the C-stick to continue aiming. While tilting the analogue stick seems to be the implied method it kind've leaves almost the entire casual crowd (who most likely jump with up) out in the cold since it'll be a bit bad to be forced to jumping with X/Y.

Also in regards to your bit all in caps, you might find with a GC controller at least (I'm just attempting to do it on my wavebird) that if you use your index finger to hold down A you can still use both thumbs for both control sticks and hell even use X to jump, sliding old middle'y over to R if you still need to shield. God**** that's uncomfortable, but I think the majority of this entire topic is getting used to change .

 

[MzNetta]

My $0.02:

-"You can walk around and jump while holding the launcher."

Notice it does not say that you can shoot and walk/jump simultaneously. (though it doesnt say you can't) He may have mentioned this simply because the item is heavy (similar to the crate, but light enough to allow jumping.) as they indicate its heavy weight in several ways. ("Gotta heft this thing! Hurrrgh!" and its large size.) While shooting will be done while stationary (indicated by 2 of the screen shots)

All of this can be performed with just 1 control stick, assuming that my observations are accurate.

In conclusion, the "Cracker Launcher" update does not confirm or deny any possible control methods for brawl.

 

[MzNetta]

AAA
Delete please.

 

[Devastlian]

I figured the cracker launcher started shooting by itself after you picked it up and you aimed similar it similar to Super Metroid's (minus the shoulder button method). I'm sure you can jump with both methods (tapping up and hitting the jump buttons) and can aim up without jumping (I'm sure there're people who can do up tilts without jumping).

 

[Cojiro]

Left/Right on Control stick moves character, Up/Down moves angle of launcher. Tap Up/Press Jump button to jump. Fires Automatically.

Can be done with a control stick alone. In my mind, the only thing this categorically rules out is wiimote by itself, but that was never going to happen anyway (Tilt/Tap mechanic)

 

[Mr.GAW]

Thank you, Cojiro, for being articulate and thoughtful in your post. If people would just think through things like you, we wouldn't even have this thread.

 

[Sensai]

^^^

This thread would result regardless of how people think, especially if everyone thought the same. 'So, it's gonna be RANDOM CONTROLLER HERE, huh?' Response: yep. Then some more...and more.

And no one really believed that the Wii remote would be played on its side, did they? 'Cause I'm 100% sure that I told you at least 100 times that it wouldn't.

Y'know, if you guys would just accept the fact that I'm always right, things would get done much quicker and much more efficiently. :-D.

 

[MzNetta]

My $0.02:

-"You can walk around and jump while holding the launcher."

Notice it does not say that you can shoot and walk/jump simultaneously. (though it doesnt say you can't) He may have mentioned this simply because the item is heavy (similar to the crate, but light enough to allow jumping.) as they indicate its heavy weight in several ways. ("Gotta heft this thing! Hurrrgh!" and its large size.) While shooting will be done while stationary (indicated by 2 of the screen shots)

All of this can be performed with just 1 control stick, assuming that my observations are accurate.

In conclusion, the "Cracker Launcher" update does not confirm or deny any possible control methods for brawl.

Does nobody notice this more than plausable theory?
Or are we all dead set on whatever our respective control method so much so that we dont consider other possibilities?

 

[Mr.GAW]

^^^ Well, we're not talking about just the cracker launcher, and we know for a fact that you can shoot in the air with the Super Scope, so, your theory MAY be plausible for the Cracker Launcher, but nobody cares anyway, because it's just one item, and the aiming thing probably applies to all.

 

[MzNetta]

We should care when everyone is jumping on the fact that tilting and moving can only be done on the GC controler when we dont even know if the combonation of the two is even possible.