Social The Egg-Cellent Dinosaurl! Yoshi in Smash Ultimate Thread!

Will Yoshi recive substantial changes in Smash Switch?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No...

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

lordvaati

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
2,894
Location
Seattle, WA
3DS FC
1307-0830-2387
So It's been almost a year, so I guess it's not really a spoiler so if it's an ish just let me know Mods, but...

Anyone think Yoshi should get a Wall Cling option like he has in Mario Odyssey?
 

Delta-cod

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
9,354
Location
Northern NJ or Chicago, IL
NNID
Phikarp
Poochy's role has almost always been just getting us past spikes and being invincible.
You can't deny that given the way Poochy works in Yoshi's Island he couldn't work as an AT. He'd either follow you around, or you could stand on him and he'd run in the direction you were facing. Naturally, he'd hit anyone he ran into. I don't think I'm the first to have this idea either. =P

Neutral B being faster could bring some great edge guarding possibilities
Edit: Just remembered directional air dodge. Ouch
With that logic, nothing works because directional air dodge (AD). AD's seem to have long animations, so the speed of Egg Lay just makes it even better in light of AD because you recover faster for a follow up.

So It's been almost a year, so I guess it's not really a spoiler so if it's an ish just let me know Mods, but...

Anyone think Yoshi should get a Wall Cling option like he has in Mario Odyssey?
You have received an 3-point infraction. Reason: Spoiling your moderator

I haven't played Odyssey yet and had been doing so well on avoiding spoilers. =(

Wall cling is pretty niche in application, so it'd be cool to have but I doubt it'd be super useful. If we could cling to a wall during any part of our DJ it could allow for some cute offstage options though, but that's about it. It's extra risky given our lack of a real recovery special.
 

Ssb_OverEazy

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
1
Having mained Yoshi for the entirety of Smash 4, there are a couple of really cool things I'd like to see either remain or change in Ultimate.

1.) His side be should function as it does in Smash 4. I actually use egg roll intentionally in bracket and it works! I'd like to keep it and ensure that you can jump while egg rolling as well.

2.) I think the tether grab is insanely good, and Yoshi ought to possess it in Ultimate. There's no reason to implement such a drastic change to the character just to not use it. I think this should be just for ledge though, not on a wall surface.

2a.) This would never happen, but it would be extremely cool to launch an egg throw while hanging from ledge if tether gets implemented.

3.) I think that fthrow should kill at earlier percent. It's a ferocious move and Yoshi has a lot of jaw/mouth/tongue strength, so why not? Either that or a confirmed dthrow up air.

4.) I think that there should be a late hitbox on utilt that sends the opponent horizontally, akin to Falcon/Ganon's late up air hitbox. It would be a subtle mixup that grants Yoshi a solid spacing tool.

I'll probably add to this when I get more ideas!
 

Sinister Slush

❄ I miss my kind ❄
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
13,774
Location
The land that never Snows
NNID
SinisterSlush
I've had my switch since last december and haven't touched it this entire year cause KF2 Dec-april and now BL2 May to now, so Mario goes into Yoshi and he can cling to walls, or is it a wall jump he's about to do?
Regardles if it's clinging then it better be in, as an aside this also kinda makes the whole dinosaur dragon or lizard thing even harder to gauge on what Yoshi is cause Lizards obviously stick to walls and have long tongues.
 

Zinith

FIREBAWLS!!! YUM!!!
Premium
Rankings Team
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
8,449
Location
Yoshi's Slave Dungeo-- err, Fan Club
Switch FC
SW 4624 0132 9722
I've had my switch since last december and haven't touched it this entire year cause KF2 Dec-april and now BL2 May to now, so Mario goes into Yoshi and he can cling to walls, or is it a wall jump he's about to do?
Regardles if it's clinging then it better be in, as an aside this also kinda makes the whole dinosaur dragon or lizard thing even harder to gauge on what Yoshi is cause Lizards obviously stick to walls and have long tongues.
He can extend his tongue and can cling to surfaces indefinitely. However he can't move and you have to jump off or use his tongue to cling to another surface. There's a part of the final level that utilizes this ability.
 

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
Sadly I don't think Yoshi is going to be able to wall cling, or even tether. Don't forget that Luigi is unable to wall jump as well despite being able to in a fair few Mario games. Heck, the Smash Bros. 3DS E3 demo back then allowed Luigi to wall jump but they took that out for some reason. This alone gives me plenty of reason to believe that Yoshi won't be able to wall cling and/or tether. And on that note, honestly I find it kind of insulting that CLOUD can wall jump of all characters. Cloud, the dude with the biggest sword, when no other sword fighter aside from the younger, more agile versions of Link. Who the hey makes these stupid decisions? If Cloud can wall jump, then why can't Luigi do that, and why can't Yoshi tether? For Christ sake, THESE are the things that grind my gears. I find it absolutely mind-boggling.

3.) I think that fthrow should kill at earlier percent. It's a ferocious move and Yoshi has a lot of jaw/mouth/tongue strength, so why not? Either that or a confirmed dthrow up air.
Honestly, Smash 64 aside, I think Yoshi could always use stronger throws to begin with, they feel very underwhelming when you consider the risk a Yoshi player takes when attempting a grab. Either his forward or backthrow would be nice. If somebody like Ness can have a super strong back throw, surely Yoshi should be able to as well. Even damage-wise the throws the moves are underwhelming, like, who the heck thought a powerful spit into the ground should only do a measily 4%, when all the others, which are simple spit-outs into the air, do more than that (even if still very little)? I find this incredibly strange.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
4,971
Location
Canada, Quebec
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
NNID
meleebrawler
Sadly I don't think Yoshi is going to be able to wall cling, or even tether. Don't forget that Luigi is unable to wall jump as well despite being able to in a fair few Mario games. Heck, the Smash Bros. 3DS E3 demo back then allowed Luigi to wall jump but they took that out for some reason. This alone gives me plenty of reason to believe that Yoshi won't be able to wall cling and/or tether. And on that note, honestly I find it kind of insulting that CLOUD can wall jump of all characters. Cloud, the dude with the biggest sword, when no other sword fighter aside from the younger, more agile versions of Link. Who the hey makes these stupid decisions? If Cloud can wall jump, then why can't Luigi do that, and why can't Yoshi tether? For Christ sake, THESE are the things that grind my gears. I find it absolutely mind-boggling.



Honestly, Smash 64 aside, I think Yoshi could always use stronger throws to begin with, they feel very underwhelming when you consider the risk a Yoshi player takes when attempting a grab. Either his forward or backthrow would be nice. If somebody like Ness can have a super strong back throw, surely Yoshi should be able to as well. Even damage-wise the throws the moves are underwhelming, like, who the heck thought a powerful spit into the ground should only do a measily 4%, when all the others, which are simple spit-outs into the air, do more than that (even if still very little)? I find this incredibly strange.
Have you seen this thing called Advent Children? Cloud is an anime protagonist, of course his physical prowess is ridiculous.
 

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
Yeah, I hear ya Zinith. It bugs me as well. Before Smash 4, another thing that really annoyed me as well was that Yoshi's eggs were always green no matter what color Yoshi you chose. It bugged me even though I almost always chose green Yoshi anyway, but heck, PEACH'S UMBRELLA changed color to match her outfits, yet it took them until Smash 4 to make Yoshi's eggs match the Yoshi color. ...better late than never but at least it's a thing now, and hopefully other things, such as being able to eat items and being able to tether, will follow.

Have you seen this thing called Advent Children? Cloud is an anime protagonist, of course his physical prowess is ridiculous.
Regardless of how powerful he is in something that's not even a video game, it still annoys me that Cloud can wall jump when other characters who are more famous for being able to wall jump can't. I swear if they don't allow BotW Link to wall jump in Ultimate I'm making Cloud my sandbag. I'm already annoyed enough by his presence enough as it is, let alone how annoyingly strong he is and all that. Ugh. Why is he here again? (...don't answer that.)
 

meleebrawler

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
4,971
Location
Canada, Quebec
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
NNID
meleebrawler
Honestly I quite liked the original version of that theme too, as well as the Bandit Valley version. It's a nice composition regardless of instruments used.
 

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
Yeah, I have to admit I cringed at first when I saw what game this was being pulled from, but after listening I can definitely say I love this arrangement of the song. Something I never thought I'd say about Yoshi's New Island music. Just shows that they completely screwed up the instruments used in the actual game, or whatever, but it just sounded incredibly awkward. ...that said, the actual main theme of the song did sound.. kind of okay at least, but this particular one for Smash blows any song used in New Island out of the water completely.

I'm gonna be pissed if they don't make any new arrangements for Woolly World though honestly. That game has so many more great songs to use than New Island. And considering there's only like, what, 14 songs for the Yoshi series, and assuming that all the songs from previous games return, that doesn't leave many songs left to be revealed.

Just for convenience sake, here's all the Yoshi songs that appeared in previous Smash games (I'll list Yoshi icons corresponding to the games they appeared in):
1. Yoshi's Story (N64) - The original song used in the original Yoshi's Island (now called Super Happy Tree) stage. :yoshi64::yoshimelee::4yoshi:
2. Yoshi's Story (Melee) - Originally used in Melee's Yoshi's Story stage, and the only song (aside from the song in today's update) to be confirmed for Ultimate. :yoshimelee::4yoshi::ultyoshi:
3. Yoshi's Island (Melee) - Originally used in Melee's Yoshi's Island stage. (Could be considered a Mario song instead, but considering it appears on a Yoshi stage and the original song is from the game Yoshi debuts in, it's a bit questionable.) :yoshimelee:
4. Obstacle Course (Spring/Summer) - Originally used in Brawl's Yoshi's Island stage. :yoshi2::4yoshi:
5. Obstacle Course (Autumn/Winter) - Same song as above, but a slightly different version, but they technically count as the same song. It just depends on how the Music menu arranges these two (together or seperate). :yoshi2::4yoshi:
6. Ending (Yoshi's Story) - Originally used in Brawl's Yoshi's Island stage. :yoshi2::4yoshi:
7. Yoshi's Island - Originally used in Brawl's Yoshi's Island stage. :yoshi2:
8. Flower Field - Originally used in Brawl's Yoshi's Island stage. :yoshi2::4yoshi:
9. Wildlands - Originally used in Brawl's Yoshi's Island stage. :yoshi2::4yoshi:
10. Yoshi's Island Remix - Originally used in Smash 4's Woolly World stage. :4yoshi:
11. Main Theme (Yoshi's New Island) - Originally used in Smash 4's Woolly World stage. :4yoshi:
12. Bandit Valley - Originally used in Smash 4's Woolly World stage. :4yoshi:
13. Yoshi's Woolly World Remix - Originally used in Smash 4's Woolly World stage. :4yoshi:
14. Yoshi's Woolly World Original - Originally used in Smash 4's Woolly World stage. :4yoshi:
15. Main Theme (Yoshi's New Island) Remix - Confirmed to be used in the selection of Ultimate's Yoshi tracks. :ultyoshi:

You could technically include this song into the mix as well because it was used in the Melee Yoshi's Island stage, but the song just doesn't have anything to do with Yoshi considering it's pulled from Super Mario Bros. 3, so I won't count this one.

So, assuming that every single one of these will return in Smash 4, and 14 songs (as shown in the Smash Bros direct) would really be the final count for Yoshi songs... this could potentially mean we already know all of the Yoshi songs, with the reveal of this particular arrangement today. That'd be very disappointing honestly. Best case scenario here would be, Yoshi's Island (Melee) is counted as a Mario song, Obstacle Course is combined, leaving us at 12 returning Yoshi songs (if they all return), plus today's revealed arrangement being 13 songs so far, leaving only a single one to be revealed.

Again, assuming all the previous ones will return. Most of them probably will honestly, so we don't have much to look forward to music-wise either. :urg: Let's hope that this is just the default number and that we're going to have to collect CD's to add more, as was the case in Brawl and Smash Wii U, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this one considering all the stages are unlocked right from the start as well.

In the assumption that only remixes will return, that leaves us with (best case scenario) 10 songs so far, which, if 14 is the final number, which would leave us with 4 more songs to still be revealed. I'd say this number would be a bit more fair, though as with everything else, it'd be nice to see the Yoshi series getting a little more love here as well, especially when you see a third-party series getting over 30 songs added just for its 1 stage all in one go (which is well deserved, but come on...).
 

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
Honestly I'd rather they give us all the regular Yoshi colors before giving us awkward colorations like that. We've still yet to see orange and white. Maybe brown, if they want to include that poor forgotten Yoshi color. Maybe magenta as well, for the Baby Yoshi's color from NSMBU.
But this is also a reason I'd like Woolly Yoshi to be included as well in some form, they could have fun including various different patterns for this alt!
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
Premium
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,725
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
I recently checked the list of changes that Yoshi has received, but I feel that some of the current buffs are not good enough by any means. Likewise, certain moves should NOT be nerfed at all; I'm looking at you standing grab and Egg Lay.

:ultyoshi:
DAir comes out 6 frames earlier (16-10)
Grab comes out at least 1 frame slower (14-15+)
BAir: Hit 2 comes out 4 frames earlier (17-13), hit 3 comes out 8 frames earlier (25-17)
Grounded Yoshi Bomb Hit 2 comes out 2 frames later (27-29)
Egg Toss has reduced startup lag (15 -> 14) (discovered by @BlobSSB, pointed out by Zinith Zinith )
BAir has reduced startup lag (11 -> 10) (discovered by @BlobSSB, pointed out by Zinith Zinith )
Individual hits of BAir each have 5-6 active frames instead of 1 (discovered by @BlobSSB, pointed out by Zinith Zinith )
Egg Lay comes out 2 frames slower (21-23)
Anyway, I don't understand why Yoshi's b-air has to have more start-up lag than Mario's b-air, along with Luigi's b-air (which can KO Mario on Omega form stage centers at around 133% damage). Also, Yoshi actually needs a buff for the standing grab and Egg Lay so that they can grab sooner (around frame 8 at least).
 

Awesomeperson159

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 2, 2018
Messages
174
Location
Canada
I recently checked the list of changes that Yoshi has received, but I feel that some of the current buffs are not good enough by any means. Likewise, certain moves should NOT be nerfed at all; I'm looking at you standing grab and Egg Lay.



Anyway, I don't understand why Yoshi's b-air has to have more start-up lag than Mario's b-air, along with Luigi's b-air (which can KO Mario on Omega form stage centers at around 133% damage). Also, Yoshi actually needs a buff for the standing grab and Egg Lay so that they can grab sooner (around frame 8 at least).
I believe Yoshi is a combination of a heavyweight archetype (judging by his overall below-average frame data and mediocre recovery but fairly high weight) and rushdown (judging by his high ground speed combined with air mobility so good that only a Limit Broken Cloud can catch him in the air and mediocre KO potential). The problem with this blend of archetypes in a 1v1 is you end up with a character who can't deal enough knockback to punish but his moves are slow. Back air is slower because Yoshi is a heavy, so he has poor frame data, but he's a rushdown, so his KO power isn't too great. Also, the Mario Brothers have really good frame data, so having that on a heavy is not quite reasonable.

I agree though, his frame data should be a bit better for a character that inconsistent at KOing. It's so bad that he'd have R.O.B.'s down throw-up air if his down throw didn't have so much lag that it literally has no utility (because hitstun ends before you can chase your opponent, and it doesn't KO middleweights on the top platform of Dreamland until 450%). Also, his grab is the only grab with that much lag that can't tether, as far as I know, and it doesn't even have that much range. DAir and BAir changes are a start, but maybe a little better frame data on his smashes and grabs would be nice. Also, maybe make down throw have a new animation that has less lag so it has combos.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
Premium
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,725
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
I believe Yoshi is a combination of a heavyweight archetype (judging by his overall below-average frame data and mediocre recovery but fairly high weight) and rushdown (judging by his high ground speed combined with air mobility so good that only a Limit Broken Cloud can catch him in the air and mediocre KO potential). The problem with this blend of archetypes in a 1v1 is you end up with a character who can't deal enough knockback to punish but his moves are slow. Back air is slower because Yoshi is a heavy, so he has poor frame data, but he's a rushdown, so his KO power isn't too great. Also, the Mario Brothers have really good frame data, so having that on a heavy is not quite reasonable.
That's pretty much the problem that Yoshi has. Just because his weight is above average does not mean that he should be following the same set of rules that characters like Ike and Captain Falcon are following. Even R.O.B. doesn't follow the heavyweight rules, as his overall KO power is rather weak.

Anyway, the following is how I think Yoshi should be like...
  • While his weight is slightly above average, most of Yoshi's attacks would be quick to strike (comparable to that of a lightweight), hitting before frame 8 in most cases. The stronger attacks would have more start-up lag, however (such as the f-smash and f-air).
  • In terms of KO power, most of Yoshi's attacks wouldn't start KOing Mario until he goes over 100% damage; the f-smash would be Yoshi's strongest standard attack when fully charged.
 

Sinister Slush

❄ I miss my kind ❄
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
13,774
Location
The land that never Snows
NNID
SinisterSlush
It's not hard, the character that's most popular usually just gets the most attention in terms of changes or buffs. From original 8 Samus and Yoshi have historically been bad.
Kirby was at least top 2 in 64 and a solid mid tier in brawl, as for the other debatable ones Link is good/mid tier in Smash 4 if the 4br was to get started on a last tier list.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
Premium
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,725
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
God, this sucks. Why is is so hard to balance my boi? (see Project M *grumble grumble*)
See my moveset edit along the way. However, it seems that I've weakened the u-air's KO potential when I worked on improving its BKB; the KBG had to be toned down to keep the attack from KOing too quickly, but I didn't realize that the default u-air could KO Mario at around 119% damage when he's on the center Battlefield platform.
 

Zinith

FIREBAWLS!!! YUM!!!
Premium
Rankings Team
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
8,449
Location
Yoshi's Slave Dungeo-- err, Fan Club
Switch FC
SW 4624 0132 9722
See my moveset edit along the way. However, it seems that I've weakened the u-air's KO potential when I worked on improving its BKB; the KBG had to be toned down to keep the attack from KOing too quickly, but I didn't realize that the default u-air could KO Mario at around 119% damage when he's on the center Battlefield platform.
I did. But why has that not been translated even by the FANMADE mod, let alone the official games?
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
Premium
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,725
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
I did. But why has that not been translated even by the FANMADE mod, let alone the official games?
Sadly, my work, along with the work made by the other moveset editors, will always fall on deaf ears in the eyes of the developers. Shame too, because characters like Wario, Palutena, King Dedede, Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf, have just felt very sad in Smash 3DS / Wii U.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
4,971
Location
Canada, Quebec
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
NNID
meleebrawler
What's this place's definition of "bad"? As far as I know Yoshi has only really been bad in Brawl. He is squarely mid-tier in every other game. This is probably why changes to him have been very conservative; he could very easily slide too far in either direction without proper care. Looking at Pac-Man and the general grab changes does give me good vibes that Yoshi's grab game won't be so useless this time around, though.

Sadly, my work, along with the work made by the other moveset editors, will always fall on deaf ears in the eyes of the developers. Shame too, because characters like Wario, Palutena, King Dedede, Zelda, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf, have just felt very sad in Smash 3DS / Wii U.
All or nothing. If you don't give balance suggestions for EVERYONE there's good chance your suggestions will be dismissed as someone just trying to make his or her mains better regardless of what happens to everyone else. And even then they will probably scoff at your ideas without hard testing evidence. The only other recourse is the tried-and-true "rally everyone to your cause" tactic, but you can only do that so much without looking unreasonable.
 
Last edited:

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
Premium
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,725
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
Let's just remember that even if Yoshi's flaws were to get fixed up, that won't guarantee that his overall competitive viability will be better.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
Premium
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,725
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
Fixing Yoshi is half of it. The other half is having a healthy metagame...
Yeah, as meleebrawler meleebrawler mentioned earlier, even if Yoshi's issues were to get fixed, you still have to take into consideration his competition. No amount of buffs will help if Yoshi still suffers from several disadvantageous match-ups against the higher ranked fighters. After all, Yoshi does not have Bayonetta's brutal combo game, nor Cloud's disjointed hitboxes; stuff that has made the two very infamous in the Smash Wii U competitive scene.

But at least Yoshi's situation is less dire than what Zelda has been dealing with. All the buffs that Zelda has received since Melee did not save her from being ranked among the worst fighters in the entire series; Zelda's competition has always had some sort of advantage against her, and the buffs that she did get didn't exactly help her poor frame data problem.
 
Last edited:

meleebrawler

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
4,971
Location
Canada, Quebec
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
NNID
meleebrawler
Yeah, as meleebrawler meleebrawler mentioned earlier, even if Yoshi's issues were to get fixed, you still have to take into consideration his competition. No amount of buffs will help if Yoshi still suffers from several disadvantageous match-ups against the higher ranked fighters. After all, Yoshi does not have Bayonetta's brutal combo game, nor Cloud's disjointed hitboxes; stuff that has made the two very infamous in the Smash Wii U competitive scene.

But at least Yoshi's situation is less dire than what Zelda has been dealing with. All the buffs that Zelda has received since Melee did not save her from being ranked among the worst fighters in the entire series; Zelda's competition has always had some sort of advantage against her, and the buffs that she did get didn't exactly help her poor frame data problem.
The main problem with Zelda I feel, is that due to her association with Sheik, the 1v1 queen, her own moveset is instead designed to mainly take potshots in free-for alls and sneak kills from distracted players. After all, it is acknowledged that she is far better in doubles with her moves synergizing well with another fighter's efforts. This may be the basis for her redesigned "assist" Phantom.

Frame data is far from the biggest problem Zelda has, since she has a number of effective quick attacks and of course her lightning kicks can be devastatingly powerful for how fast they when they work, plus the slower ones do usually have power to match. Still, an actual boxing option in her new jab and lowered landing lag is appreciated.
 

Delta-cod

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
9,354
Location
Northern NJ or Chicago, IL
NNID
Phikarp
I wouldn't worry so much about frame data yet guys. While important, keep in mind that a character with good frame data but terrible mobility (Hi Link, Zelda) can't take advantage of their moves. Yoshi is able to work around some of his slightly mediocre frame data by abusing his general movement, which is pretty essential when considering any character's abilities.

That aside, having good frame data couldn't hurt. :)
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

The Cute Cosmic Protector
Premium
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
21,725
Location
Mushroom Kingdom
3DS FC
5327-1637-5096
NNID
TPitch5
Good frame data is still important if you want to make quick punishes though. With how laggy Yoshi's standing grab is, he can't depend on it to interrupt the third attack from Mario's jab combo.

Also, Yoshi's throws don't even have much KO potential in them, while the d-throw's BKB is too strong for him to even deliver a follow-up attack.
 

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
Yeah, I don't understand why Yoshi's grab has always been so terrible in every single department. No KO potential, little to no follow-up potential, terrible damage even (4% for the ground-smack down throw is outright disgusting), it's not like Yoshi would suddenly be broken if they'd improve on all these things even a little bit. The only time I feel Yoshi's grab was ever somewhat good (Smash 64 aside, where all grabs pretty much had KO potential) was Brawl with his pivot grab, which was really nice and quick, then Smash 4 absolutely ruined that move as well. But even with that good pivot grab, it didn't allow Yoshi much in terms of follow-ups. ..well, unless you went for the cheap grab-release chaingrab that only worked on certain characters, which still didn't help all that much (unless the opponent was Wario, which you could do this infinitely with... but that's absolutely cheating as the Wario player could do absolutely nothing about it).

Much as I'd love for Yoshi to finally be able to use his tongue as a tether recovery, I'd much rather they fix his grab game first, because as it is, you're much better off not using it at all.
 

Delta-cod

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
9,354
Location
Northern NJ or Chicago, IL
NNID
Phikarp
But even with that good pivot grab, it didn't allow Yoshi much in terms of follow-ups. ..well, unless you went for the cheap grab-release chaingrab that only worked on certain characters, which still didn't help all that much (unless the opponent was Wario, which you could do this infinitely with... but that's absolutely cheating as the Wario player could do absolutely nothing about it).
You're vastly underrating how important the grab release chain grabs and follow ups were. Not only were they guaranteed damage, move unstaling, and potential kill setups, they also gave you complete stage control. Furthermore, the mental break of getting an easy chain grab can't be understated -- having easy routines to go through in tournaments saves you mental effort and staves off that tournament fatigue for just a while longer.

Also, you may need to rethink your stance on "cheap" moves and techniques -- although I understand there being a time and a place for using uninteractive techniques (I wouldn't really infinite Warios in friendlies, for instance), when there's your tournament life on the line, you should really consider using all options to their fullest.
 

Yosher

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
620
Location
Yoshi's Island, of course
NNID
Yosher
You're vastly underrating how important the grab release chain grabs and follow ups were. Not only were they guaranteed damage, move unstaling, and potential kill setups, they also gave you complete stage control. Furthermore, the mental break of getting an easy chain grab can't be understated -- having easy routines to go through in tournaments saves you mental effort and staves off that tournament fatigue for just a while longer.

Also, you may need to rethink your stance on "cheap" moves and techniques -- although I understand there being a time and a place for using uninteractive techniques (I wouldn't really infinite Warios in friendlies, for instance), when there's your tournament life on the line, you should really consider using all options to their fullest.
I just meant that it didn't help Yoshi all that much in Brawl, if you look at his tier list placements. Sure, it prevented him from being even lower on said lists, but he was still pretty bad, and brawl Yoshi was arguably the worst of them all. I'm well aware of how important grab releases and chain grabs are especially in pre-Smash 4 games, it just barely did anything for our favourite dinosaur.

And I'll still continue to think of chain grabs as cheap techniques. Whenever there's a chain grab option, the moment the opponent is grabbed is like a small pause for the grabber to prepare for the throw (or release) while they add free damage to the opponent and then re-grabbing them, rinse and repeat until the damage is too high for it to work or worse, until the opponent is in kill range. It's also incredibly obnoxious to deal with as the opponent, and as a viewer it's also incredibly boring to watch. I understand that tournament players don't give a damn about that, but I'm not a tournament player, and even if I was I would find ways to overcome my opponent without resorting to these types of cheap techniques. ..not that I'd have much choice considering I'd be playing Yoshi exclusively during these tournaments and, Brawl grab release aside, I don't remember him ever having any kind of chain grab option.

Really though, where's the honor in just grabbing your opponent and racking up their damage when they're completely incapable of doing anything about it? Heck, where's the fun in it? To me, video games are still about having fun and chain grabbing is everything but fun in my eyes, and I really am happy that they nerfed this 'technique' into the ground since Smash 4.

Of course, that's just my personal opinion, and I'm not going to force that onto anybody. If you enjoy chain grabbing, by all means, chain grab away wherever possible! And I apologise for my stubbornness, but I won't rethink my stance on it.
 
Top