The customs project: Ness edition

[Luco]

That's cause you guys are using Ness' position to judge the effect of customs. I feel Ness is one of the characters that benefits a little less from customs than he should, however once you accept that and look at the larger picture I think you'll find customs actually do benefit the game more than hinder it, by far. Remember that for these top tiers with their customs, there are also lower-tiered characters with customs to beat them - Ganny would indeed have trouble with the single starbit, if it wasn't for the fact he also gets wizard's dropkick to help him overcome that if he predicts it. And other examples are there, too.

I'm quite sick right now so I'm not thinking to max capacity here. If someone can elaborate on what I mean then they're welcome to.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Maybe I'm being over optimistic but nothing about windboxes completely negates our recovery, like say, Magnet or w/e right. Could steering PK Thunder into ourselves after getting pushed be viable? Lucas's thunder can reach pretty far..

 

[Noa.]

I've spoken before about how I feel customs helps the balance of the game so I won't repeat myself. Ness is probably worse in a customs meta, and I think that bias is showing for a lot of people here.

 

[Earthbound360]

Maybe I'm being over optimistic but nothing about windboxes completely negates our recovery, like say, Magnet or w/e right. Could steering PK Thunder into ourselves after getting pushed be viable? Lucas's thunder can reach pretty far..

Ness' fall speed increases over time after using PKT. After being wind pushed, there's pretty much no time for you to bring thunder under him because he'll be falling too far from the stage and too fast.

 

[Farkus]

I will agree that rising pk flash is practically useless and not worth taking. I personally don't think pk freeze is worth taking because it has the same trajectory as pk flash and is no easier to hit. I would do a bajillion damage and probably kill them then do less damage and freeze them.

And PSI vacuum is like flat out better than the psi magnets against opponents who don't have energy projectiles. I find it pretty easy to land and it eats up spotdodges very easily. I don't thin it'll ever kill but it has enough knockback to send the opponent far away enough to gain more stage control.

I have never tried to use lasting pk thunder so I don't know how it compares to default thunder when juggling. If it has similar juggling capabilities than perhaps it's worth using in matchups that can punish Ness's recovery a lot. I would consider using it if it can threaten just as must damage when the opponent is offstage or high in the air. The superior recovery would be worth losing the KO potential of pkt2.

I suppose forward psi magnet vs default magnet just comes down to personal preference. Having a hitbox and a greater range to absorb is great, but is it worth a worse healing ratio? 1.6 to 1.2 is a pretty significant loss. I'm sure it comes down to personal preference.

So our useable customs could be pk fire burst, lasting pk thunder, and both other magnets?

While it may be better on paper to get PSIV against non energy using enemies, the difficulty to land of either the FPSIM or PSIV makes it practically not even worth the time to make a custom with PSIV.

 

[Earthbound360]

While it may be better on paper to get PSIV against non energy using enemies, the difficulty to land of either the FPSIM or PSIV makes it practically not even worth the time to make a custom with PSIV.

It's not THAT impossible to land, though I will agree that it's not always the best option. But either way, you're not hurting yourself by taking it.

 

[yoshi8984]

I think Vacuum has its uses in some scenarios; one I've used it for it covering ledge options (just SH and whip out the Vacuum when they're on the ledge). It covers the roll, normal get up and you can space yourself properly to avoid the ledge attack (and hell doing a hop should let you avoid it anyway). It can also cover a jump (but not reliably), unsure how it works out with covering something like a ledge drop then hop back on stage with an aerial.

Having an extra hitbox is a nice upgrade for some MUs. Although Ness' (sadly) are nothing special. :/

 

[FEFIZ]

The Down B 3 isn't good guys? I'm starting to play with Ness to by my second and I'm using 1113.

 

[Luco]

It heals considerably less than default magnet, I think it's slightly worse on cooldown (but not sure) and the hit doesn't do much even should it land. Also Ness doesn't always turn around when something hits him from behind. It's an alright custom but I personally think vortex or default are considerably better.

 

[FEFIZ]

It heals considerably less than default magnet, I think it's slightly worse on cooldown (but not sure) and the hit doesn't do much even should it land. Also Ness doesn't always turn around when something hits him from behind. It's an alright custom but I personally think vortex or default are considerably better.

"It heals considerably less". Ah!!! This is an important afirmation! So, its better the default one! Thanks.

 

[Luco]

"It heals considerably less". Ah!!! This is an important afirmation! So, its better the default one! Thanks.

Yeah sorry, the default heals at 1.6x damage, whilst forward only heals at 1.2x damage. =P

 

[FEFIZ]

Yeah sorry, the default heals at 1.6x damage, whilst forward only heals at 1.2x damage. =P

Thanks, I will use 1111 vs absorve projetcs chars and 1112 vs the others that the down B 1 doens't work.

 

[Luco]

Here's a fun idea. I saw one of Neko's replays and thought "how can I apply that?" - so before you read this, you should know that Neko is the one who came up with it, I just wanted to emphasise it here.

Basically I'd say always choose PSI vortex against LM, if you can Fthrow him at the ledge, then wait just a bit so he can't footstool you then you can jump offstage and hold vortex as he tries to recover and laugh at his pain. It takes a bit of effort but I'd say it covers LM's options better than Fair because it has a greater reach (meaning LM can't do much) and it doesn't activate counter. For some reason, LM never seems to hit you with either sideB or upB either, I'm guessing this has to do with how vortex drags the person in but I'm not sure.

Like seriously. It took me a little bit of practice but I think if you guys have any LM mains near you, you should consider testing it out. It's SO GOOD.

 

[Earthbound360]

I've known about vacuum gimping for a while now. I tried it on my friend's Link a couple of times. It's not fullproof, but it makes for a funny gimmick sometimes.

 

[Uffe]

I've noticed on the EVO website for Sm4sh that the Lucas custom, 3323, is not listed. Was that not considered or what?

 

[Luco]

It's because PK Freeze is utter trash on Ness, mostly, and forward PSI magnet is definitely the worst downB custom. But it could be done for funsies.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

I never played with customs until today, but I found PSI Vacuum to have a lot of uses, especially off-stage as an edge-guarding tool (quick note: my only experience with it is today against a friend). While falling down passed ledge you can use it to pull the person off-stage (if they're close enough) for a small stage spike. It's not guaranteed and a little risky, but it's worked for me a couple times! I've also used to to stop a Fox Illusion then followed with an Fair for a kill.

I like it a lot. It's not perfect and there are a lot of times where it might be better to use something else, but it definitely has a lot of potential for mindgames. A couple times I straight pulled him passed me when he was doing an attack. It also does about 31% if you do pkfire -> PSI Vac at 0%, which gives it an easy follow for an Fair.

I plan on trying it out tomorrow at a tourney so we'll see how it goes

There was also once where I did a 0 -> Death with it... I don't expect it a lot, but it was definitely fun haha. It was pkfire -> d throw -> Fair 3x -> Psi Vac and the Psi Vac gave just enough knockback to push him passed the blast zone.

 

[L9999]

Now that we are talking, I just played with Lucas' PK Thunder with real people. That move is great. It makes the Sheik matchup slightly less miserable.

 

[Drarky]

Well... After the buff on the 3 variations of Magnets, I feel like PSI Vacuum it's actually a pretty useful tool overall. Fast startup and low endlag, pretty nice area, the sweetspot kills decently. The vacuum effect can be somewhat a hit or miss but it definitely feels like the move is actually pretty legit.

 

[Masonomace]

Hello Ness boards. I did some research in regards to Ness' PK Freeze custom special since I typed up a lengthy post about Monado Shield in the Shulk board's move-set analysis thread. Anyways, here are some numbers in Training Mode:

Ness using PK Freeze. PK Freeze uncharged from above deals ~10% & deals ~19% fully charged.
Uncharged
Vanilla Shulk starts getting frozen at 0%. When crouching, freezing starts at 0%.
Shield Shulk starts getting frozen at 0%. When crouching, Shield Shulk cannot be frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!
Decisive Shield Shulk & Hyper Shield Shulk crouching or standing cannot become frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!

EDIT: Forgot to add in Fullcharged. Whoops.

Fullcharged
Vanilla Shulk starts gettign frozen at 0%. When crouching, freezing starts at 0%.
Shield Shulk starts getting frozen at 0%. When crouching, Shield Shulk cannot be frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!
Decisive Shield Shulk & Hyper Shield Shulk crouching or standing cannot become frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!

 

[Noa.]

Hello Ness boards. I did some research in regards to Ness' PK Freeze custom special since I typed up a lengthy post about Monado Shield in the Shulk board's move-set analysis thread. Anyways, here are some numbers in Training Mode:

Ness using PK Freeze. PK Freeze uncharged from above deals ~10% & deals ~19% fully charged.
Uncharged
Vanilla Shulk starts getting frozen at 0%. When crouching, freezing starts at 0%.
Shield Shulk starts getting frozen at 0%. When crouching, Shield Shulk cannot be frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!
Decisive Shield Shulk & Hyper Shield Shulk crouching or standing cannot become frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!

EDIT: Forgot to add in Fullcharged. Whoops.

Fullcharged
Vanilla Shulk starts gettign frozen at 0%. When crouching, freezing starts at 0%.
Shield Shulk starts getting frozen at 0%. When crouching, Shield Shulk cannot be frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!
Decisive Shield Shulk & Hyper Shield Shulk crouching or standing cannot become frozen by PK Freeze, not even at 999%!

That is interesting. Your testing has made notice something that I haven't noticed before, and that's that Pk freeze does 10% uncharged while default Pk flash does 8% uncharged. I now know a way in which this move is superior to Pk flash. Eureka!

 

[Yink]

Does anyone have any objection to me unsticking this thread? Customs (as far as I can tell) have more or less fallen off in the months since EVO, and not everyone uses this exact customs setup anymore.

Thoughts?

 

[Noa.]

Yeah we can unsticky it now that customs are not at the forefront of the public. It's still a useful thread to have if anyone wants to talk about customs. But as sticky probably isn't necessary. There's a link to it in the directory.

 

[Luco]

Just voicing my agreement. Touched that this was a thing and we put that effort into it but It's more or less served its course now and I'm happy for it to be more of a resource than an actual discussion topic. Keep it open though in case anyone wants to post here and suggest stuff IMO. ^_^

 

[Farkus]

Are customs even still legal? I haven't seen like any lately.

 

[Luco]

I'm some regions yes, but they're becoming rarer and rarer.