The customs project: Ness edition

[EarthBoundEnigma]

The problem with using PK Bonfire is that it has long startlag, endlag, and short range. It's just really unsafe to use against good players, especially if they DI well. But if you are saying that you can negate DI then it may be worth it.

I'm testing out PK Bonfire and PSI Vacuum combo. The endlag on PK Bonfire is too large to catch even a lvl 3 CPU Bowser in a PSI Vacuum before he escapes.

Thanks for checking. So far I've only done this with standard PK Fire.

PK Bonfire is a lot harder to land, however, and may not be as efficient as the standard PK Fire in terms of DPS. It comes down to preference, but if you can do this even once with PK Bonfire it will be very much worth it.

So we can definitely say the combination should be standard side special 1 and alternate down special 2, with whatever other specials you prefer?

 

[Ranias]

Thanks for checking. So far I've only done this with standard PK Fire.

So we can definitely say the combination should be standard side special 1 and alternate down special 2, with whatever other specials you prefer?

No problem.

The second post in this thread was our first consensus in our decided builds (amongst the like 7 people that participated).

By the way, I'll definitely be using PSI Vacuum more after scoring a PK Fire hit now. It seems pretty decent.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

By the way, I'll definitely be using PSI Vacuum more after scoring a PK Fire hit now. It seems pretty decent.

Do give it a try as a gimp move. It can pull a parasol stalling peach away from the ledge, denying her recovery. I want to test it on various moves that lock position, like Ike's side special, to see if I can use it to pull them or not. There's a lot to test. Does it impact teammates? Does it affect the bike? How about charging smash attacks?

 

[Ranias]

Do give it a try as a gimp move. It can pull a parasol stalling peach away from the ledge, denying her recovery. I want to test it on various moves that lock position, like Ike's side special, to see if I can use it to pull them or not. There's a lot to test. Does it impact teammates? Does it affect the bike? How about charging smash attacks?

I'm bored so I tested those questions out, lol.

• It does affect teammates in the same way as opponents (with team attack on). I think I'd rather use PSI Magnet in team battles though, for the chance to heal if I have a teammate with energy projectiles.
• It does not affect Wario's bike. It does not affect items either (except for the explosion damage).
• It does affect charging smash attacks. It affects attacks with super armor on it as well (like Little Mac's smashes).

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I'm bored so I tested those questions out, lol.

• It does affect teammates in the same way as opponents (with team attack on). I think I'd rather use PSI Magnet in team battles though, for the chance to heal if I have a teammate with energy projectiles.
• It does not affect Wario's bike. It does not affect items either (except for the explosion damage).
• It does affect charging smash attacks. It affects attacks with super armor on it as well (like Little Mac's smashes).

If it works on Little Mac, it could hilariously lead to stuff like this by screwing with spacing.

 

[Ranias]

If it works on Little Mac, it could hilariously lead to stuff like this by screwing with spacing.

Yeah lol. I tested it against a computer, and that happened all the time.

 

[Pazx]

I haven't unlocked PK Freeze or Lucas's Magnet yet (which seem the most controversial moveslots) but on stages with many platforms (BF, KJ64) I think Lucas's PKT is better for juggling due to it's tighter turning circle, multiple hits and the option to cancel it by hitting a platform.

Also, our current slot 5 vs slot 6 are incredibly similar (Forward Magnet vs Regular Magnet). Perhaps introducing PKFreeze to Lucas's set to further differentiate it would be a good idea, or we add Vortex to one of them.

 

[Ranias]

I haven't unlocked PK Freeze or Lucas's Magnet yet (which seem the most controversial moveslots) but on stages with many platforms (BF, KJ64) I think Lucas's PKT is better for juggling due to it's tighter turning circle, multiple hits and the option to cancel it by hitting a platform.

Sounds like a good point. I'll try it out.

Also, our current slot 5 vs slot 6 are incredibly similar (Forward Magnet vs Regular Magnet). Perhaps introducing PKFreeze to Lucas's set to further differentiate it would be a good idea, or we add Vortex to one of them.

The reason PK Freeze was left out is because it is pretty bad when compared to PK Flash, as PK Flash has the ability to KO and do more damage than PK Freeze. Maybe we're missing something though.

 

[Luco]

The way I see it there is literally no reason to use PK Freeze in a situation where you could use PK Flash... like ever. I'm pretty sure Flash does more damage than freeze and most people get out of freeze in seconds so... you're basically just choosing a custom with less damage and no knockback for nothing much in return. There's not even greater mobility, an option which, if it was there would actually be an incentive for me to pick it seeing as we know it works from Brawl Lucas.

 

[Tikao]

I'm still impressed how they managed to make the new neutral-bs which are even worse than the original pk-flash
like for real ...

 

[Meccs]

Hmm. So in Brawl, my Lucas setup was B-Sticking because I loved spacing with SH-backwards-moving PK Fires. Especially since it can be used in the air, as well. I don't know if the physics still work like that in 4, but I'll test it out today.
I know regular PK Fire can lead to grabs a lot of the time, but it is hardly guaranteed against high level players. So I was thinking of swapping PK Fire with Lucas' PK Fire and trying that out, I think it (1311?) could be a viable loadout and make it easier to safely move around.

I'm imagining stuff like (towards offstage) Dthrow > Fair > Fair > (Fair?) > PK Fire Burst as they attempt to move away from Ness and out of Fairs range, plus the momentum from PK Fire Burst will push you back towards the stage after you've used your double jump on the earlier Fairs. I guess it all just hinges on the physics acting the same as they do for B-Sticking Lucas in Brawl. That would also give us the PK Fire bounce thing as well for added recovery goodness.

 

[Luco]

Hmm. So in Brawl, my Lucas setup was B-Sticking because I loved spacing with SH-backwards-moving PK Fires. Especially since it can be used in the air, as well. I don't know if the physics still work like that in 4, but I'll test it out today.
I know regular PK Fire can lead to grabs a lot of the time, but it is hardly guaranteed against high level players. So I was thinking of swapping PK Fire with Lucas' PK Fire and trying that out, I think it (1311?) could be a viable loadout and make it easier to safely move around.

I'm imagining stuff like (towards offstage) Dthrow > Fair > Fair > (Fair?) > PK Fire Burst as they attempt to move away from Ness and out of Fairs range, plus the momentum from PK Fire Burst will push you back towards the stage after you've used your double jump on the earlier Fairs. I guess it all just hinges on the physics acting the same as they do for B-Sticking Lucas in Brawl. That would also give us the PK Fire bounce thing as well for added recovery goodness.

It's a shame that the physics of it don't act in the same way, it's the major reason why I got so turned off on that custom. Ness doesn't get the wavebounce, nor does his SH height make PK Fire spacing easy. That said, it's still a nice option to have in MUs where normal PKF is less safe and it can have its follow up uses.

 

[Meccs]

Yeah just tried it. Yuck.
It could be useful though.

 

[Pazzo.]

So PK Flash is deemed the most useful out of the three customs?

 

[Luco]

So PK Flash is deemed the most useful out of the three customs?

That would be the case. PK Flash is impractical most of the time but it can pressure people offstage and net you early kills randomly

The other two either don't kill or are even less practical.

 

[Tikao]

it's not like pk-flash is even close to being a good move, it's more like the others are even worse

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Question regarding lasting PK Thunder. If you hit with the PKT2 version does it half your recovery distance like the standard one? If not it could have that for a niche use.

 

[Noa.]

Lasting Pk thunder is Lucas one right? It does not shorten your distance if hit someone. :V

 

[ilysm]

Are there any downsides to lasting PK Thunder? For real.

 

[Noa.]

It's not as good at juggling for damage. It's much slower so opponent's can get out of it more easily. And pkt2 does not kill anywhere near as well with lasting thunder.

 

[Luco]

Also I suspect but am not sure than regular PKT goes slightly further if not interrupted?

The bolt travelling slower also makes a difference against characters like Rosalina and Villager who have more time to GP/Pocket it (can you guys imagine how terrifying Pocket Plus will be against us when the villager mains figure out that it's actually useful in a couple MUs? )

 

[Shamrock7r]

Was just at the custom discussion in competitive. I saw that 1113 wasn't present as one of the 6 Setups for ness. I strongly believe it should be added. It's much more versatile than Lucas pkmagnet for any non energy recovery matchups

 

[Ranias]

Was just at the custom discussion in competitive. I saw that 1113 wasn't present as one of the 6 Setups for ness. I strongly believe it should be added. It's much more versatile than Lucas pkmagnet for any non energy recovery matchups

You are thinking of 1112, which is one of the 6.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Oh awesome. But in that case why isn't Lucas magnet with the rest of the defaults available? It should be the default magnet used by ness players against energy projectile opponents.

 

[Ranias]

Oh awesome. But in that case why isn't Lucas magnet with the rest of the defaults available? It should be the default magnet used by ness players against energy projectile opponents.

Lucas's magnet heals for less and has more lag. It also is really difficult to hit with and doesn't protect you 100% from behind. Ness's PSI Magnet is generally better because you can heal more with it.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I kind of noticed the lag but I thought it was my mind just playing tricks. That makes sense then. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Ranias]

I kind of noticed the lag but I thought it was my mind just playing tricks. That makes sense then. Thanks for clarifying

No problem. I thought I remembered Forward having more lag, but maybe it is the same. I just tested it, and it seems close. The lag from either can be cancelled if you roll as you recover anyways. If you are able to find uses for the damage or anything of Forward, feel free to use it. The normal one isn't immensely better or anything.

 

[Shamrock7r]

After playing extensively, I can say that PSI Vacuum is the future. I would use it over Magnet minus a very few amount of matchups. It really does add a whole new dynamic to Ness's game.

 

[Earthbound360]

Geeeezzzzzz I just got a sample of Ness' customs recently since they might become legal where I live, and I must say I am NOT impressed. I feel like if customs become legal, they could hurt NEss' tier placement by virtue of other characters' customs just being better.

Where do I begin. Lucas' moves, they ruined ALL of them.

Lucas' PK Fire doesn't get reduced lag upon landing. It also doesn't shoot out at waist height.
Lucas' PK Freeze is atrocious. Seriously, what's the point of this move? It's not even faster, which was the main draw of the original PK Freeze, and it doesn't do more knockback OR damage.
Lucas' Magnet used to heal MORE than Ness', and have LESS lag. Now it's the opposite, AND it doesn't cover both sides? Wtf?
Lucas' PK Thunder is okay, the bolt doesn't drill right through people as well as the original, but it's not terrible.

How you make PK Flash WORSE is beyond me. Rising Flash will only ever get people who literally have no clue how it works.
PK Bonfire and Slow Thunder are laughably bad.

The best one is Vaccuum, mostly in matchups where you can't absorb anything. It's actually quite good, since it has a huge range of sweeping people in. Just make sure you release the magnet before they hit you. I can see this being used to punish rolls and the like. Possibly even to gimp recoveries.

The best customs are these:

1. PSI Vaccuum: Use in matchups where normal magnet is useless or if you'd rather have the attack instead of healing
2. Lucas Thunder: Use in matchups where gimping is a serious issue, and PKT juggles are hard (Sheik, Jigglypuff, etc.)
3. Lucas Fire: Use if you wanna play a spacing game or the opponent gets out of PKF for free

 

[Pazx]

Is PSI Vortex/Vacuum/Whatever actually worth using at all? I can understand having it on a set vs non projectile users, but surely we have better moves to use in whatever situation that makes its existence entirely meaningless.

 

[Ranias]

Is PSI Vortex/Vacuum/Whatever actually worth using at all? I can understand having it on a set vs non projectile users, but surely we have better moves to use in whatever situation that makes its existence entirely meaningless.

Nah, it seems legit. It's better than a useless PSI Magnet for sure. I think it has hidden potential, people just need play more with customs to find it.

 

[Luco]

Is PSI Vortex/Vacuum/Whatever actually worth using at all? I can understand having it on a set vs non projectile users, but surely we have better moves to use in whatever situation that makes its existence entirely meaningless.

I'm not sure, I think it may have some use in conjunction with PK fire or edge-guarding stuff, though the latter in particular is not an area we especially need more buffing in, we can harass peeps offstage quite well with a couple exceptions (usually ones where failing to harass successfully leads to our own demise ((see: Rosalina)) or where they're exceptionally mobile and in certain positions ((such as ZSS horizontally across from you offstage)) ).

But I reckon it's worth giving it a shot. =3

 

[Earthbound360]

Vaccuum is good because it actually has range (all you need to do is get them in the pull range, which is huge). But don't throw out Magnet right away. Magnet is better than I think Ness players give it credit for. If you look at it from the opponent's perspective, then you realize it locks out a ton of their projectile options. They basically have to constantly think not to use their fireballs or lasers carelessly. With Magnet cancelling, it's really safe.

 

[Funen1]

PSI Vacuum sort of reminds me of Seth's Tanden Engine from SF4, something that can be used to mess with the opponent's spacing. I haven't gotten around yet to fully messing with its range or its potential for followups, but I have to wonder if the fact that it works on airborne opponents (unlike Tanden Engine iirc) might be useful to throw off enemies who rely on properly spaced aerials or, as Luco suggested, to mess with recoveries.

Count me among those who were also disappointed with PK Fire Burst. Lucas' PK Fire in Brawl was one of the few things I liked about his moveset over Ness' (being a mid-range aerial spacing tool), but unfortunately it seems way too laggy all around to be used that way in Smash 4. The main benefit that it might have is better damage output against characters and/or opponents who are more easily able to escape regular PK Fire and thus not get grab-combo'd. Didn't @ Noa. say he wanted to examine how PK Fire works on the whole cast?

 

[Luco]

Also because Ness' SH rises him above most people, PK Fire Burst goes straight over the head of most characters unless you put some effort into timing it and then you have to deal with serious lag issues.

Makes me sad... Makes me want Lucas to fill the role of SH PKF-er.

 

[ilysm]

I've barely gotten around to unlocking any of them. All I've got is Piercing PKT, and even that feels alien when I use it. It doesn't have any of the same utility as the default. I really want to get my hands on Vaccuum to test it out, but that's about it. Rip, SHPKF.

 

[Noa.]

I've also been playing around with customs a lot lately. I think they're are only three customs worth using, and the rest are useless and worthless.

Pk Fire burst, Lasting pk thunder, and psi vacuum.

PSI magnet is really good but obviously psi vacuum is better if you can't absorb anything, or if whatever you can reflect never comes into play. I'm sure PSI vacuum is useful but I haven't been using it at all when I do set it on. However for the first couple months of playing I never used dsmash, and I've found plenty of uses for dsmash nowadays. I'm sure with time I'll find how to use this move.

PK Fire burst is useable, but not too great. The nicer range is nice and the ability to use pk fire in the air is cute. But I don't think these outweigh the huge reward we get off default pk fire. PK Fire burst is definitely ok, but I can't see myself actually taking it.

Lasting pk thunder has surprised me the most in testing. I thought that it would primarily be used in matchups that we get edge guarded against. But I've found two unique thing about lasting pk thunder that makes it very unique compared to default pk thunder. First, the whole projectile has transcendent priority. Opponents cannot hit or cancel out the projectile at all. For example, you can use lasting pk thunder against Peach's parasol head on and it will go straight through that parasol. The second detail about lasting pk thunder is the gimping hitbox on lasting pk thunder. Sometimes lasting pk thunder will just keep them in place and you can just encircle the pk thunder into them. However there have been time where the pk thunder hits them and it knocks them away at a horizontal angle. This angle is really useful for gimping characters with lesser recoveries, as well as stage spiking. I will say that this gimping hitbox is really really useful and is very scary for players offstage. I think Lucas's pk thunder in brawl also had a gimping hitbox, but I'm not sure. Another thing to note about lasting pk thunder is that its pkt2 does have a killing hit at the end, and it kills at around 130 or something. The biggest problem with pkt2 though is that if you land it from the beginning, it won't link into the end of the move and won't land that last hit. It's quite annoying really. In my mind this is how the pk thunders compare:

Default Pk Thunder

• Faster
• Deals more damage on hit
• Because it's faster and has more damage, is more effective at juggling
• Can KO with pkt2 at ridiculous percents

Lasting Pk Thunder

• Can gimp and stage spike characters at really low percents
• Has tighter turns and controls
• Has better shield pressure, especially on opponents stuck on platforms
• The whole projectile has transcendent priority
• PKT2 goes further and is thus a better recovery

In my mind it comes down to having a pk thunder that is better at juggling and killing or having a pk thunder that is better at gimping and recovering. I still think that default is probably better overall, but it is very close between both of them. I can actually see myself using lasting pk thunder in tournament against characters that have poor recoveries.

I think we should update the custom sets of Ness to only be variations of PK Fire Burst, Lasting Pk Thunder, and PSI Vacuum. Everything else is useless. That would give us a total of seven sets.

 

[Noa.]

Customs are now legal at EVO. This is a pretty big deal. I'm personally pretty excited, but this means that more discussion should happen about Ness's custom moves.

As it stands now EVO will have ten preset custom movesets for each character on each wii u. You will not be allowed to import your own custom moveset for use in the tournament. This means that we have to find the best 10 sets for Ness that could cover all the viable options that players would want.

For the most part it's likely that most Ness players would just want to use default Ness, as his customs are not that amazing. But I think Ness has 3 standout, useable customs.

PK Fire Burst
Lasting PK Thunder
PSI Vacuum

These moves are useful for the reasons I listed in my post above this one. They are not necessarily better than Ness's defaults, but definitely have uses and I could see people wanting to use them. Using every single possible combination of these three moves would give us 7 custom movesets. We would still have 3 more slots.

Is there any other custom move that people think are worth using?

@NAKAT @FOW @Shaky @ Luco @ Earthbound360 @ neomadgic @ Waael @NorCal_DSS

 

[Waael]

I agree with PSI Vacuum and PK Fire Burst! I would leave Ness's PKT2 untouched only because I would constantly need to practice it so I won't SD or misuse it thinking its the original PKT2.

 

[neomadgic]

I really want to start trying out customs, but I only unlocked like 2 of them. I've been too lazy to unlock them, but will probably get on it soon since I'm planning on going to EVO