The customs project: Ness edition

[Noa.]

Lasting Pk Thunder is great, and I think better than default in certain matchups.

 

[Earthbound360]

So I've been playing with some friends who are taking customs somewhat seriously lately. And geez there are broken customs out there, Ness' blow by comparison.

Zig Zag can from Duck Hunt, teleporting Luma, Luigi's Ice Fireball, and Trip Tree from Villager will make these matchups hell for us. If these REALLY become a norm, expect Ness to drop a good few spots on the tier list.

Really praying that these are just a one time thing for Evo.

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1112 1121 1122 1311 1312 1321 1322 1212 2111 3323

Ness was someone challenging to create custom sets for. I pooled the various combinations from the Custom Specials you guys agreed were useable, and then added in a few niche sets as per how your discussions seemed to go. One makes use of Rising PK Flash, one utilizes PK Bonfire, and... the last one is Lucas... eh heh...

There may be more potential hidden in Ness' custom movesets. Try to reevaluate what he has to offer and see if you can't come up with some better alternatives for these niche sets.

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

Ness:
1, 1/3, 1/2, 1/2 and niche sets
1112 1121 1122 1311 1312 1321 1322
Niche: 1212 2111 3323
Note: The last niche set is Lucas.

 

[Earthbound360]

That's pretty much all we need. There's only 3 useable customs, so every combo of those ones covers all bases.

 

[Noa.]

Those are the sets that people would want.

Maybe one of the niche sets can have a lucas magnet. Like the set with rising pk flash can have forward magnet maybe?

 

[Spiritmonger]

Yesterday, I went to my weekly tournament, and just get wrecked by a good bowser player who sacrificed his body on the pkt2 to shorter the range.
I'd like to have lucas' upB at this moment x)

 

[Waael]

So I've been playing with some friends who are taking customs somewhat seriously lately. And geez there are broken customs out there, Ness' blow by comparison.

Zig Zag can from Duck Hunt, teleporting Luma, Luigi's Ice Fireball, and Trip Tree from Villager will make these matchups hell for us. If these REALLY become a norm, expect Ness to drop a good few spots on the tier list.

Really praying that these are just a one time thing for Evo.

NCR (Norcal Regionals are allowing customs because of Evo) >_> I AGREE with all those customs you just mentioned. I need to find a way around them. Ness is going to go down a few notches, PSI Vacuum is the only one I like.

This might help you guys:

http://i.imgur.com/EmpTBf6.png

http://i.imgur.com/GscIQpB.png

 

[Earthbound360]

Urgh, what are the odds that customs are going to go down in the future? I genuinely think they're really poorly balanced overall, and only serve to throw what was potentially balanced under the bus :\
Some customs are just downright broken, and I'm not one to cry out "broken" that easily.

 

[Waael]

Urgh, what are the odds that customs are going to go down in the future? I genuinely think they're really poorly balanced overall, and only serve to throw what was potentially balanced under the bus :\
Some customs are just downright broken, and I'm not one to cry out "broken" that easily.

Evo is also going down to 5 minutes instead of 6 minutes, making timeouts extremely easier.

I honestly don't want customs in but we need to keep up, and I want it back to 6 minutes, I tested it out, I got TIMED OUT twice.. by a Toon Link player.

It seems it's going to stick for good

DK, Villager and Palutena have broken customs XD

 

[Earthbound360]

Man just cuz Evo's doin it everyone's gotta? 5 minutes IS really short too...
Like seriously, for everyone who advocated customs, did they actually TRY those things out? They're broken as crap.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I personally think Trip Sapling is the only custom that might be broken, especially with the 5 minute timer. Never take Villager to Battlefield with this thing unless you're ready to camp like crazy cause I'm not sure what else it would turn into if he plants it under a platform and hides behind it. EDIT: Actually now that I think it through it'd be possible with a projectile-less character with some godlike patience and spacing but it certainly wouldn't be fun.

The rest though? I can't see Kong Cyclone being busted once people get used to "holy **** windbox shenanigans," though it does make DK stronger, make no mistake. Palutena's going to get much stronger, definitely, but broken? Eh we'll see. Call me when she's effortlessly annihilating Diddy players.

I'd like to imagine that if a custom move became so significant to the metagame that top 8's everywhere featured Villager dittos hiding behind saplings for 5 minutes or DK dittos creating tornadoes in the venue then we'd simply ban the move rather than washing the whole system.

I agree with y'all about the timer though. My gut's telling me there'll be a lot of timeouts at EVO. And yes, Ness will be a bit worse in the customs environment, especially with the number of customs that feature windboxes to push the poor kid away from his thunder.

 

[Noa.]

I fully support customs. They help balance the game overall and the roster becomes a lot closer with them on. There are a lot of **** and mediocre characters without customs. With customs on a lot of characters gain tools to help them against top and high tiers. With customs on the best characters are still Diddy and Sheik. None of the customs make any character oppressive or broken.

And lasting pk Thunder is great.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Figured I'd go over 2 non Ness moves since they were brought up:

DK's Super wind up B: It's actually possible to hit him out of it before the final hit. So basically it starts with 1 hit and super armor, after the first hit is a giant collection on windboxes bringing you into him (This gives you no hitstun btw), then the super armor runs out shortly before the big hit (not sure on the frame window maybe 1 or 2 frames idk). Also shield > punish works lol

Villager's trip sprout: So I have a friend that mains Villager, so I have the fun of playing against this somewhat frequently. This one unlike the previous one I talked about is actually like REALLY good. lol I wouldn't say broken, but you're going to have to play very patient. The sprout does run out after a while so there are moments to punish. They're real I swear.

 

[Earthbound360]

I fully support customs. They help balance the game overall and the roster becomes a lot closer with them on. There are a lot of **** and mediocre characters without customs. With customs on a lot of characters gain tools to help them against top and high tiers. With customs on the best characters are still Diddy and Sheik. None of the customs make any character oppressive or broken.

And lasting pk Thunder is great.

Not sure I agree with this. Diddy and Sheik gain very little from customs, and Rosalina and Villager (who are already high tier characters) gain a LOT. Like, they become stupid. I don't think there are a lot of horrid characters by default anyways. Maybe like WFT and Doc, but everyone can be played pretty effectively.

 

[Noa.]

Not sure I agree with this. Diddy and Sheik gain very little from customs, and Rosalina and Villager (who are already high tier characters) gain a LOT. Like, they become stupid. I don't think there are a lot of horrid characters by default anyways. Maybe like WFT and Doc, but everyone can be played pretty effectively.

Diddy and sheik gain little from customs. The fact that they're the best characters with customs on shows how customs are not that big a deal. Rosalina gains very nice tools with customs but they're overrated. They're useful in forcing approaches and good mid range tools, but have limitations on their use. Villager is very questionable high tier without customs. With them he's definitely a great character, but I don't think he's overbearing at all.

Without customs I would say there are about 10 to 15 characters that can realistically win a large national. With customs on Id say the number grows to about 20. The mid tiers are significantly weaker than the high tier, and most of them gain very strong tools. High tier characters may receive a few nice moves, but they're already so good that it doesn't really make them that much better.

 

[Earthbound360]

Diddy and sheik gain little from customs. The fact that they're the best characters with customs on shows how customs are not that big a deal. Rosalina gains very nice tools with customs but they're overrated. They're useful in forcing approaches and good mid range tools, but have limitations on their use. Villager is very questionable high tier without customs. With them he's definitely a great character, but I don't think he's overbearing at all.

Without customs I would say there are about 10 to 15 characters that can realistically win a large national. With customs on Id say the number grows to about 20. The mid tiers are significantly weaker than the high tier, and most of them gain very strong tools. High tier characters may receive a few nice moves, but they're already so good that it doesn't really make them that much better.

Villager is definitely high tier. Japanese players are consistently ranking him high, and there's just so much stuff being found out about him that I don't doubt his high tier reign any time soon. And play a Villager who's using trip sapling... I'm almost certain you'll change your mindset.

I wouldn't judge it by saying what characters can win a large national. That'd be asking for an A tier the size of half the roster. But there's certainly a good number that you can place well with. I'd argue that there's only a handful of characters that are just near impossible to place well with. I mean, a lot of people discounted Pac Man too until Abadango came around.

Saying a high tier character "doesn't get much better" with the custom tools is a bit of an understatement IMO. If you give a low tier a nice custom then fine, but giving an already proposed high tier character something like that is just asking to reincarnate Brawl MK.

 

[Noa.]

Villager is definitely high tier. Japanese players are consistently ranking him high, and there's just so much stuff being found out about him that I don't doubt his high tier reign any time soon. And play a Villager who's using trip sapling... I'm almost certain you'll change your mindset.

I wouldn't judge it by saying what characters can win a large national. That'd be asking for an A tier the size of half the roster. But there's certainly a good number that you can place well with. I'd argue that there's only a handful of characters that are just near impossible to place well with. I mean, a lot of people discounted Pac Man too until Abadango came around.

Saying a high tier character "doesn't get much better" with the custom tools is a bit of an understatement IMO. If you give a low tier a nice custom then fine, but giving an already proposed high tier character something like that is just asking to reincarnate Brawl MK.

I have played against customs villager and it's quite difficult. But overbearing? Worse than Sonic, Diddy, and Sheik? He's not as strong as those characters, with or without characters. Villager becomes a legitimate threat with customs on but he's not the best character in the game with them. Same with Rosalina.

There is a decent amount of characters that you can do well with, but if they can't win a national are they actually viable? If a player is ultimately unable to win huge tournaments due to their character choice, that character is probably not viable.

Customs help the worse characters in the game, generally speaking. Good characters tend to have lots of good moves and great options. Without a variety of solid tools a character cannot be that good. A great character might have five or six tools in every situation, and customs might add one or two more options for those situations. Worse characters would have like two or three tools in every situation, and with customs adding one or two is very helpful.

If mediocre characters jump from a power level of 4 to 7, that's better for the game even if the high tier characters are jumping from 8 to 9. The cast is a lot closer and tighter with customs on.

 

[Luco]

Oh you guys!

I've been a customs supporter for a long time, and I've also had the pleasure to play with them for a significantly long time as well (we played customs on tournaments from the very beginning). Having gone against all of these, I'm in agreement with Noa 100%. These customs aren't broken. Hell, I showed you guys the set I had against DK in finals where he had custom upB. It was tense as hell and I was struggling with his upB but it was definitely doable.

I'll go through DK, Villager, Pally and DHD.

Duck Hunt is a character whose primary weakness in this game is finding kills. His zoning game is effective along with some very nice but niche setups and SH autocancel windows. I use him as a secondary (and have used him in tournament before, albeit only in pools where I felt comfortable trying him and Bowser Jr out). Zig Zag can is crazy cool, and has some really fun use, but it doesn't really cover DHD's essential killing weakness, and only really makes his zoning more potent. Which I quite like, personally.

Palutena is a make-or-break character when it comes to customs. She pretty much needs Super Speed and Lightweight to be viable, but with those two moves alone she's more than capable of destroying peeps with insane mobility. I went against one such palutena ages ago in tournament, he's one of Australia's really good players and it was terrifying, but when it comes down to it Pally's options out of super speed are kinda limited, and Bair is powerful but not enough to stop peeps from beating her out with our more consistent gameplans. She's like, really good, but also really fragile. I don't know how to explain her really.

One of the best players in our country is a villager main and she's freakishly good, both with and without customs. I've played her online many times and our matches are very close. Planting the tree at dead centre stage is very powerful, and the tree itself is nothing to scoff at either but it's not there forever and it only changes some MUs (for us, it doesn't realllyyyy stop villager from having to approach you if they're behind, because the only thing they can actually use to camp with properly is Fair/Bair and that gets predictable) in major ways. Also, Villager's grab is sub-par, so going over the sapling isn't the worst possible thing that could possibly happen. It's a great custom, but beatable.

DK's custom cyclone is something I've really had some up close and personal experience with (GFs of my second tournament, also earlier in bracket in the same tourney. I think I put the vids on the Ness boards when they were uploaded but I can do it again) and while I must say it made my life very frustrating and generally makes DK so much more potent in the air, it has weaknesses, can be very punishable (if he tries to use it onstage and you shield the windbox then he's really screwed) and doesn't stop DK from having other exploitable weaknesses (including not stopping his recovery from being awful in terms of vertical recovery). It's beatable - I'm very sure of that.

And stop underselling our own customs guys. The ability to make our recovery stronger, and go for better gimps is definitely something that works strongly in our favour.

 

[Noa.]

Oh you guys!

I've been a customs supporter for a long time, and I've also had the pleasure to play with them for a significantly long time as well (we played customs on tournaments from the very beginning). Having gone against all of these, I'm in agreement with Noa 100%. These customs aren't broken. Hell, I showed you guys the set I had against DK in finals where he had custom upB. It was tense as hell and I was struggling with his upB but it was definitely doable.

I'll go through DK, Villager, Pally and DHD.

Duck Hunt is a character whose primary weakness in this game is finding kills. His zoning game is effective along with some very nice but niche setups and SH autocancel windows. I use him as a secondary (and have used him in tournament before, albeit only in pools where I felt comfortable trying him and Bowser Jr out). Zig Zag can is crazy cool, and has some really fun use, but it doesn't really cover DHD's essential killing weakness, and only really makes his zoning more potent. Which I quite like, personally.

Palutena is a make-or-break character when it comes to customs. She pretty much needs Super Speed and Lightweight to be viable, but with those two moves alone she's more than capable of destroying peeps with insane mobility. I went against one such palutena ages ago in tournament, he's one of Australia's really good players and it was terrifying, but when it comes down to it Pally's options out of super speed are kinda limited, and Bair is powerful but not enough to stop peeps from beating her out with our more consistent gameplans. She's like, really good, but also really fragile. I don't know how to explain her really.

One of the best players in our country is a villager main and she's freakishly good, both with and without customs. I've played her online many times and our matches are very close. Planting the tree at dead centre stage is very powerful, and the tree itself is nothing to scoff at either but it's not there forever and it only changes some MUs (for us, it doesn't realllyyyy stop villager from having to approach you if they're behind, because the only thing they can actually use to camp with properly is Fair/Bair and that gets predictable) in major ways. Also, Villager's grab is sub-par, so going over the sapling isn't the worst possible thing that could possibly happen. It's a great custom, but beatable.

DK's custom cyclone is something I've really had some up close and personal experience with (GFs of my second tournament, also earlier in bracket in the same tourney. I think I put the vids on the Ness boards when they were uploaded but I can do it again) and while I must say it made my life very frustrating and generally makes DK so much more potent in the air, it has weaknesses, can be very punishable (if he tries to use it onstage and you shield the windbox then he's really screwed) and doesn't stop DK from having other exploitable weaknesses (including not stopping his recovery from being awful in terms of vertical recovery). It's beatable - I'm very sure of that.

And stop underselling our own customs guys. The ability to make our recovery stronger, and go for better gimps is definitely something that works strongly in our favour.

I think the thing about Palutena is that her frame data and damage per hit is quite bad. Her moves are slow and laggy, and even when you do land them they aren't too damaging. Superspeed and lightweight are some of the best custom moves in the whole game, but they don't fix these essential limitations that Palutena has.

 

[Earthbound360]

Duck Hunt's zig zag definitely opens up more opportunities for him to KO, I must mention that. That darn can forces you to air dodge so easily, setting you up perfectly for his uair.

While Villager's grab isn't great, you do not know true terror until you play a trip tree Villager that knows how to perfect pivot smashes...

 

[L9999]

Duck Hunt's zig zag definitely opens up more opportunities for him to KO, I must mention that. That darn can forces you to air dodge so easily, setting you up perfectly for his uair.

While Villager's grab isn't great, you do not know true terror until you play a trip tree Villager that knows how to perfect pivot smashes...

I'm really starting to think who was the smart guy who gave the Killager the most broken Smashes, the most broken tilts, the most broken aerials (yes, I think they are more broken than Diddy's Uair), the most spammable projectile, an absorber/reflector, the most broken custom moves, a camping wall that can brutally murder, terrifying edgeguard (more than Brawl MK and Smash64 Pikachu) and the most absurdly broken recovery of them all. I won't be surprised if suddenly everybody start noticing how broken Killager is and that they overrate Diddy too much.

And if it wasn't enough, in that Smooth Landing Heavy Gravity mod he is even more broken.

 

[Lukingordex]

So just returning a bit on the discussion about which neutral b is better (or less bad), I have a piece of evidence that proves neutral B 1 is the most "useful" one.

You can combo a fully charged PK Flash into 2 fairs (51%) or a Uair (50%) at very low %s.
So if you somehow break a shield at a very low % use it, at least it's something, unlike Rising PK Flash which is a joke of a move and PK Freeze which deals less damage.

 

[Earthbound360]

So just returning a bit on the discussion about which neutral b is better (or less bad), I have a piece of evidence that proves neutral B 1 is the most "useful" one.

You can combo a fully charged PK Flash into 2 fairs (51%) or a Uair (50%) at very low %s.
So if you somehow break a shield at a very low % use it, at least it's something, unlike Rising PK Flash which is a joke of a move and PK Freeze which deals less damage.

This is my new favorite combo lol.

Also, I went to my first customs tourney recently. They were... meh, I didn't love em, but I did at least get some customs experience. I must say, I stand corrected on Lucas thunder. @ Noa. wasn't kidding, it's really got its uses. The way it pierces shields is just stupid, and it's basically just one giant PKT tail. PKT2 is much safer on block too (still not completely safe though).

I still wouldn't take it in all matchups, but it certainly helped me out in some matchups against projectile heavy characters (since the PKT goes right through projectiles. I still think it's harder to hit with since it's smaller and slower, and I'd rather have normal thunder against the likes of DK, Luigi, and Rob. However, I'm starting to like it more than Vacuum. I thought I'd be using Vacuum all day, but I felt much more comfortable with thunder.

Vacuum isn't bad, but it feel kind of liek a gimmick compared to Lucas thunder's reliability. It's probably my new favorite custom.
On another note, I like Lucas fire even LESS now. It's so dang laggy :\

 

[Noa.]

This is my new favorite combo lol.

Also, I went to my first customs tourney recently. They were... meh, I didn't love em, but I did at least get some customs experience. I must say, I stand corrected on Lucas thunder. @ Noa. wasn't kidding, it's really got its uses. The way it pierces shields is just stupid, and it's basically just one giant PKT tail. PKT2 is much safer on block too (still not completely safe though).

I still wouldn't take it in all matchups, but it certainly helped me out in some matchups against projectile heavy characters (since the PKT goes right through projectiles. I still think it's harder to hit with since it's smaller and slower, and I'd rather have normal thunder against the likes of DK, Luigi, and Rob. However, I'm starting to like it more than Vacuum. I thought I'd be using Vacuum all day, but I felt much more comfortable with thunder.

Vacuum isn't bad, but it feel kind of liek a gimmick compared to Lucas thunder's reliability. It's probably my new favorite custom.
On another note, I like Lucas fire even LESS now. It's so dang laggy :\

Lucas thunder is certainly better in certain matchups.

But I'm not sure of which ones at this point.

 

[Earthbound360]

I feel like anyone that you'd REALLY want to PKT juggle (as mentioned, DK, Rob, Luigi) would be better handled with regular thunder.

I still think some characters are better edgeguarded with normal thunder too, like Fox. Normal thunder's size just allows it to cover more options. In those matchups, I'd rather have Ness' thunder as well.

 

[Noa.]

I feel like anyone that you'd REALLY want to PKT juggle (as mentioned, DK, Rob, Luigi) would be better handled with regular thunder.

I still think some characters are better edgeguarded with normal thunder too, like Fox. Normal thunder's size just allows it to cover more options. In those matchups, I'd rather have Ness' thunder as well.

I prefer default with anyone that has a reflector or absorber or anything. You can still juggle them with default sometimes because of its speed.

 

[Tikao]

As Ness doesn't gain much with custom moves on, how do you see Ness in this new "metagame". MUs change, characters get more options and therefore might be more dangerous for us.

There have been a lot of discussions about the metagame and Ness' standing in it when the game came out, but now with customs on, the whole metagame changes (assuming it will become the standard)

So which MUs will change the most, which custom moves will be realy good against ness, which (often used) custom moves won't work well against us.

Or in general : what will stay the same, what will affect us the most and what will we need to adapt to?

 

[Earthbound360]

Trip sapling will swing the matchup in Villagers favor.
Kong cyclone will make it at least even for DK. Maybe even worse because of his wind punch.
DH's zig zag makes getting in on him hell, probably a bad matchup.
Luigi's Ice Fireball makes it a bad matchup for us.
Sonic's Fire Spin Dash makes the matchup even worse.
I think ROB's customs are good but not unbearable for Ness. Matchup might stay the same.

Also, with everyone gaining stupid windbox customs, Ness gets gimped 80% harder than before.
Customs **** Ness over hard. I'm glad CEO isn't legalizing them. Hoping EVO backs out on them also.

 

[Emrald]

So. I dont play all the Ness in the world, but i figured id bounce this AT off of you guys because well, youd make better use of it.

If your using PSI Vacuum, you can execute this.
Basically, you can Ledge Trump>FastFall>PSI Vacuum.
If you postion yourself correctly and time the release right, you get a stage spike.
Its pretty simple to master but decently poweful against characters with bad recovery.
(mainly because the stage spike, while a stage spike, isnt too powerful)
If preformed quickly enough, this is like, 4-5 frames from being a true combo.

 

[Earthbound360]

So. I dont play all the Ness in the world, but i figured id bounce this AT off of you guys because well, youd make better use of it.

If your using PSI Vacuum, you can execute this.
Basically, you can Ledge Trump>FastFall>PSI Vacuum.
If you postion yourself correctly and time the release right, you get a stage spike.
Its pretty simple to master but decently poweful against characters with bad recovery.
(mainly because the stage spike, while a stage spike, isnt too powerful)
If preformed quickly enough, this is like, 4-5 frames from being a true combo.

Is this really true? I... must test this.

 

[Luco]

I've been trying to do it on CPUs but miss them at the most crucial times. :/

If it works better on people then that's pretty awesome.

 

[Tikao]

I realy want PSI Vacuum to have some weird AT, which will make it super usefull, this move seems so exiting at first, but not for long, after you used it a few games

 

[Uffe]

PSI Vacuum could actually be really good. I never gave it a chance, but I was trying it out earlier today. I tried d-throw > PSIV, but it didn't work. It could be pretty good as an offstage attack, but the problem with it is that it seems to throw the opponent back onto the stage, which is something I'm not fond of. I'm still not a fan of the Rising PK Flash. If it has more horizontal movement, then maybe, but I feel like it's such an obvious attack. PK Bonfire is another attack that's not really worth having. There is so much lag behind it and it's short in range. PK Fire is just a better attack.

 

['Nanas]

I prefer Either 1111, or 1112 if they don't have an energy projectile but Ness is a very good character with defaults
so there is not much
i would change

 

[Luco]

Updated the decided sets, I think that by the time the next custom moveset update comes around we should have a slightly more definitive answer for slots 8, 9 and 10. Is there any possible way PK Bonfire could be useful in a couple select MUs?

 

[Tikao]

you could use it on something you can ignite it to create a wall (rob's Gyro, pikmin on the ground etc.)
even with that in those MUs normal pk-fire is probadly better, but pk-bonfire COULD be used for this for stage control

 

[L9999]

It sucks that Ness's customs are so situational they can't be used as most custom moves. Why couldn't they make a Swift PK Flash instead of Rising PK Flash? One that is like P:M's? And who the hell thought nerfing PK Freeze, Foward PSI Magnet, and PK Fire Burst was a good idea? If PK Fire Burst didn't have terrible lag all around like, I don't know, every projectile in the game, it could be more than usable. If the hitbox on Magnet was the entire magnet and it healed as much as regular PSI Magnet it could be more usable. But no, that would make him OP, but giving ROSALINA a Luma positioner and a projectile that covers the ENTIRE stage sounds like a good idea. Yeah, so she can gimp that freak and gamebreaker Ness even more! Let's give Sanic gamebreaker customs so he can torment slow characters more, like Ness!!! Better yet, let's give EVERYONE windboxes to gimp Ness, YEY!!!! !!! Diddy? Who's that?! Sheik?! She is Zelda right?! Excuse the rant, I just see Ness plummeting in tournament results and tiers with all this cheap windbox customs and the broken customs they gave to Rosaluma, Sanic, and Killager.

 

[Earthbound360]

Exactly. I don't know why people think customs will be promoting balance in this game lol.

Luckily, CEO didn't legalize them. Hopefully future tourney hosts will follow their example over Evo.

 

[PKBeam]

Customs have the same balance, but the idea of characters moving up so others move down is seen as balancing the game.

 

[L9999]

The whole argument of "customs make low tiers look good" sounds good on paper, but that doesn't mean top tiers cannot abuse customs. I already mentioned Killager (1122 is from where Killager comes from(Hell)), Rosaluma (projectile that crosses the entire stage and Gravitational BS) and Sanic (why Smash team?!). Those are terrible matchups all around. Pikachu is a nightmare with the Thunder Jolt that kills offstage and is impossible to gimp with the fast Skull Bash and Meteor Quick Attack. Try to Magnet Jolt? Rat will come down and kiss you hard with Dair/Fair/Nair and happily returning to the stage while you plummet to your doom. DK is just.....DK is an airbender. Mario has Gust Cape and High Pressure F.L.U.D.D. Approaching DHD that has ZigZag Can and Frisbee is like trying to cross a road full of cars at high speed without getting killed. You get the idea of what will happen.