The customs project: Ness edition

[Luco]

Hey guys, so @ Amazing Ampharos has posted on something recent which I feel rather strongly about; and that is the inclusion of customs into tournament level play. I won't go too much into the issue of why I believe customs should be legal myself; but suffice it to say I feel that much of the argument against them is biased and focuses on a logistical issue that we can solve. All of this and more is covered in the thread here, though I have reason to believe most Ness mains already support customs:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

So in accordance with this project which whilst it has no official name i'll just refer to it as 'the customs project', i've decided to take this issue to our community. In effect, what needs to happen is we, as Ness mains, need to come up with a bunch of custom sets that can be put on a wii U BEFORE any given tournament and used as the standard Ness custom sets. This could range between say, 4-8 sets* (I understand as we're one of the characters that generally prefers default build we may not have as many sets as other characters) and would be decided on by the community. This information would be sent to the thread above which would ideally then be used as the basis for what custom sets are put on tournament wiiUs. The maximum number of sets we can come up with is 8, with the final 2 slots being left open for people who use custom builds different from the norm. Otherwise, feel free to discuss and come up with it.

I know we don't rely that much on customs, but it's good to try this anyway and see what we can come up with. To be totally honest since they're so rarely used, it could be as simple as a bunch of people agree-ing on a build, though I urge you guys not to take this lightly as the results would ideally be put onto every tournament-used WiiU. So yeah, give it a think about, and reply here when you get a chance.

Again, you may already know them by now, but i'll post all the custom moves here for you to discuss:

Neutral special 1 - PK Flash: A sphere of green light appears above Ness. As the attack button is held, the sphere moves downwards and increases in power, until the attack button is released or until it is fully charged, it explodes.
Neutral special 2 - Rising PK Flash: The attack moves upward with minimal control. It has a larger hitbox at the cost of damage.
Neutral special 3 - PK Freeze: Inflicts less damage, but freezes opponents. Works like Lucas's neutral special.
Side special 1 - PK Fire: Ness fires a yellow, lightning-bolt shaped projectile, that travels in a straight line until it hits an enemy or destructible portion of a stage, at which point it explodes into flames.
Side special 2 - PK Bonfire: The lightning-bolt doesn't travel as far, but the flame pillar sticks around longer.
Side special 3 - PK Fire Burst: Releases a single flame when it hits and knocks opponents farther. It will always travel horizontally even when used in the air, similar to Lucas's variant of PK Fire.
Up special 1 - PK Thunder: Ness creates a stream of lightning that can be aimed into opponents to deal damage with the head and stun with the tail. Aiming the head into Ness himself will launch him in a trajectory opposite to the side he was hit on, which is referred to as PK Thunder 2.
Up special 2 - Lasting PK Thunder: Functions similarly to Lucas's counterpart, with tighter turning and both the projectile and Ness piercing enemies.
Up special 3 - Rolling PK Thunder: Slower yet larger PK Thunder. Both the projectile and Ness do more damage and knockback.
Down special 1 - PSI Magnet: Ness creates a purple energy field around him which allows him to absorb almost any incoming projectile. It can be held in order to use it repeatedly.
Down special 2 - PSI Vacuum: Ness draws opponents in with a Green Magnet and once the move is released, an explosion attack foes around him
Down special 3 - Forward PSI Magnet: Ness draws his Magnet in front of him, just like Lucas's version.

(Taken from SmashWiki)

For the purposes of neatness, Our format will be in numbers, so all default will be 1111, with the order being neutral special, side special, up special and down special. Following this format, Using all default specs except for having forward PSI magnet would be 1113, and having forward PSI Magnet and PK Bonfire would be 1213... etc.

So with that in mind, DISCUSS.

And I will update the post below for builds we've agreed on.

Thanks guys! Even if you're not a Ness main, feel free to contribute towards the discussion!

Also to open things up, I feel a decent build could be 1133. Whilst I normally dislike Lucas' upB on Ness in smash 4, I feel like in select MUs where the opponent has good aerial mobility and will be trying to either jump into the PKT1 bolt or PKT2 to stop it going very far, this could work quite well. Forward-facing PSI Magnet doesn't allow you to turn but if you're good with the directions then it might as well not be a difference and it damages enemies when stopped too, meaning less punishable.

--


*EDIT: Ampharos has clarified exactly what is needed in this regard:

It looks like Ness and his friends are already pretty far along on this adventure and that you guys are sorting most of this out pretty efficiently. I would like to clarify exactly what we're looking for. We want up to three critical sets that represent Ness's best options across match-ups (excluding 1111 which is always available, though I know that's a fully viable set for Ness). After we get those up to three critical sets, we want to fill the rest of the slots up to slot six with supplemental sets that may be more niche either in representing less popular opinions, match-up specific stuff, or perhaps team-centric options. For instance, I know that most Ness players are very fond of default Pk Thunder, but at least one set including Lucas's Pk Thunder would probably be a good idea since there is a subset of player that, well advised or not, definitely wants the recovery security that move offers. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 so these options can be explored more in depth by all players, and of course, 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import on tournament day.

EDIT2: So our list has been compiled with the others and made into a list that can now be accessed by TOs worldwide. You guys have been awesome.

Credits:

@ PSIBoy - gave sources of discussion and kept it moving which was amazing.

@ TheEnderFriend - contributed to discussion and suggested some cool ideas!

@ Noa. - One of the biggest voices in the discussion, someone I was always able to bounce ideas back and forth from and really got on board with it all. =D

@ Ranias - Another major member of the discussion who basically came up with our 4 most critical sets really early on. Best! :D

@Yink - did behind the scenes work related to presentation of the thread and stickied it to showcase it... so so grateful!!

@ Uffe - Gave good early analysis of moves and presented some new vantage points and ideas on how to use certain customs (and thanks for verifying the use of FPSIM, I thought it might never get taken! :O ). =D

@ Tikao - for another awesome analysis of moves which fueled and propelled the discussion. <3

 

[Luco]

This post is reserved for our decided builds.

Decided builds:

Slot one: 1112 (for non-energy users)

Slot two: 1311 (Ranged PKF for spacing and those who SDI out of it easily)

Slot three: 1312 (combination of the above)

Slot four: 1121 (lasting PKT for recovery security)

Slot five: 1322 (Lucas' build with PSi Vortex and normal PK Flash)

Slot six: 1321 (Lasting PKT and PK Fire burst for a long-ranged game with good recovery)

Slot seven: 1122 (Lasting PKT and PSI Vortex for selected MUs without energy projectiles in play)

Needs 3 more!

 

[PSIBoy]

Maybe 2111 for anti-air, but that probably wouldn't work so well. 1112 would work for non-energy based projectile users. Perhaps 1211 or 1212 if you feel confident enough to try PK Bonfire.

 

[TheEnderFriend]

2312 could be good for combating aerial players like jiggs, with the rising flash and the straight PK fire. Default thunder is good for juggling and vacuum could draw them in.

 

[Ranias]

Also to open things up, I feel a decent build could be 1133. Whilst I normally dislike Lucas' upB on Ness in smash 4, I feel like in select MUs where the opponent has good aerial mobility and will be trying to either jump into the PKT1 bolt or PKT2 to stop it going very far, this could work quite well. Forward-facing PSI Magnet doesn't allow you to turn but if you're good with the directions then it might as well not be a difference and it damages enemies when stopped too, meaning less punishable.

I think you meant 1123 for Lucas's PK Thunder and PSI Magnet.

Maybe 2111 for anti-air, but that probably wouldn't work so well. 1112 would work for non-energy based projectile users. Perhaps 1211 or 1212 if you feel confident enough to try PK Bonfire.

PK Bonfire is too slow to risk using imo. Plus, good players will know how to DI out of it.

By the way, Draconoa said something in the Ness hint thread about this and I just replied to his post earlier today.

So what are everyone's favorite Ness custom moves? I don't think they offer up too much for him honestly.

I get the impression that all the pk flashes are pretty bad. Maybe Rising pk flash has use in juggles but I see no use for pk Freeze.


Pk fire has an option that matters I think. Lucas's pk fire is somewhat decent. The range increase is really useful and makes it better at punishing whiffs. Plus you can use it in short hops against tall opponents. Against opponents or characters that can escape from default pk fire very quickly I can see it being used. However I don't think many characters fall into that category.

Out of all the pk thunders the default seems the best. Just because it can setup for juggles and is more reliable than the heavy pk thunder while still being threatening unlike Lucas's pk thunder.

For the magnets, is there any advantage the default magnet has over the Lucas magnet? I think the Lucas magnet might have weaker windboxes than the Ness one but that might be it. PSI vacuum is obviously the choice if they don't have an energy projectile.

So yeah for the custom sets the first number is neutral b, second is side b, third is up b, fourth is down b.

2-1-1-3 would probably be my preferred custom set. Rising PK flash, p fire, pk thunder, and forward psi magnet.

2-1-1-2 would be the set against people who don't have energy projectiles, so PSI vacuum instead.

2-3-1-3 would be the set against people who could sdi or escape quickly out of default pk fire, so pk fire burst instead.

2-3-1-2 would be the set against who can sdi default pk fire and don't have energy projectiles.

So that's four different sets. And if you prefer default pk flash you can just replace it. So we'd have a total of eight good custom sets depending on matchup and personal preference.

Unless you think there's an argument to be made about Pk freeze, pk bonfire, the other pk thunders, and default magnet.

I pretty much agree with this, except:

• I prefer normal PK Flash because I can edgeguard with it.
• I prefer normal PSI Magnet over Forward PSI Magnet since I never hit with Forward PSI Magnet anyway and the increased heal ratio is awesome.

So I'm lame and just prefer the default everything on Ness, lol.
Sometimes I switch to PK Fire Burst (against good PK Fire escapers) or PSI Vacuum (against no energy to absorb) though.

I would personally go with
1111 (most of the time)
1112 (against no energy projectiles)
1311 (against people that easily escape PK Fire)
1312 (against no energy projectiles and PK Fire escapers)

 

[Noa.]

Yeah I posted in the FAQ thread about customs and Ranias just quoted my posts so there.

Pk bonfire sucks. Each individual hit is a lot stronger than the default pk fire so it is incredibly easy to sdi out of. And the much shorter range means it's a lot more punishable. I can't really see anyone preferring to use it after they actually try it out.

I forgot that rising pk flash also does less damage than default pk flash. In that case default pk flash is probably more useful in most situations

Our best set is probably 1-1-1-1. The only other options we would take are Rising pk flash, pk fire burst, and psi vacuum. So all eight sets have to account for those options.

So to copy paste Rania:

1111 Default prefered

1112 No energy projectiles

1311 People that easily escape PK Fire

1312 No energy projectiles and PK Fire escapers

2111 Anti air Pk Flash

2112 Anti air Pk Flash and No energy projectiles

2311 Anti air Pk Flash and People that easily escape PK Fire

2312 Anti air Pk Flash No energy projectiles and PK Fire escapers

 

[Uffe]

The pros of custom moves is that they can further improve a character. They're not that much different in the sense that they're the same attack, just with different attributes. The cons, however, is that there wouldn't be an exact tier list, or that it would make figuring out match ups and a tier list take a very long time. There are 49 characters in this game, 51 if you add the other two Miis. That means there are 204 different customs in total, and that's including the default ones.

I think Ness has the worst custom moves. 2232 are just bad and here are my reasons.

2. Rising PK Flash - You can slightly move it, but it only goes straight up, and nobody is going to stick around to get hit by it unless they're newbs using Bowser or Yoshi, and using their Down B to try to hit you. Even then, it has a slower start up, so your opponent could easily fast fall and hit you. This is probably only good as an attack for opponents off stage who like recovering high.

2. PK Bonfire - It's shorter in range and slower than the original. The only positive it has is that it lasts longer, if it hits. You can get punished for pivot PKF, so you'll definitely get punished with PKBF.

3. Rolling PK Thunder - Though it does about 7% more damage, it's not that quick. Plus, in this game, Ness has a chance at recovery, so why would you risk it with this?

2. PSI Vacuum - You're better off using the Forward PSI Magnet, because you can still deal damage and absorb projectile.

The most reliable are the defaults and 3323. Here are my reasons for 3323.

3. PK Freeze - It starts off high and comes down low. If your opponent is off stage, this might pretty useful since some players like to recover high and some like to recover low. Plus, it's quick, and if it lands, they'll be momentarily stuck in ice.

3. PK Fire Burst - This has further range than the other PKFs. It knocks back the opponent as well.

2. Lasting PK Thunder - Recovery is slightly shorter than PKT2. However, it pushes opponents, and you can even catch them in tailwhips. You can also go through shields with LPKT2, and if it hits the opponent, then it does multiple damage, but only seems to do 25% total just like PKT2 and has lesser knock back. The color of it also looks cool.

3. Forward PSI Magnet - Unlike the regular PSIM, this sticks further out and does damage. It could even be useful if your opponent is near, uses projectile to heal you unintentionally, and then you letting it go afterwards to hurt them in exchange.

 

[Ranias]

The pros of custom moves is that they can further improve a character. They're not that much different in the sense that they're the same attack, just with different attributes. The cons, however, is that there wouldn't be an exact tier list, or that it would make figuring out match ups and a tier list take a very long time. There are 49 characters in this game, 51 if you add the other two Miis. That means there are 204 different customs in total, and that's including the default ones.

I think Ness has the worst custom moves. 2232 are just bad and here are my reasons.

2. Rising PK Flash - You can slightly move it, but it only goes straight up, and nobody is going to stick around to get hit by it unless they're newbs using Bowser or Yoshi, and using their Down B to try to hit you. Even then, it has a slower start up, so your opponent could easily fast fall and hit you. This is probably only good as an attack for opponents off stage who like recovering high.

2. PK Bonfire - It's shorter in range and slower than the original. The only positive it has is that it lasts longer, if it hits. You can get punished for pivot PKF, so you'll definitely get punished with PKBF.

3. Rolling PK Thunder - Though it does about 7% more damage, it's not that quick. Plus, in this game, Ness has a chance at recovery, so why would you risk it with this?

2. PSI Vacuum - You're better off using the Forward PSI Magnet, because you can still deal damage and absorb projectile.

The most reliable are the defaults and 3323. Here are my reasons for 3323.

3. PK Freeze - It starts off high and comes down low. If your opponent is off stage, this might pretty useful since some players like to recover high and some like to recover low. Plus, it's quick, and if it lands, they'll be momentarily stuck in ice.

3. PK Fire Burst - This has further range than the other PKFs. It knocks back the opponent as well.

2. Lasting PK Thunder - Recovery is slightly shorter than PKT2. However, it pushes opponents, and you can even catch them in tailwhips. You can also go through shields with LPKT2, and if it hits the opponent, then it does multiple damage, but only seems to do 25% total just like PKT2 and has lesser knock back. The color of it also looks cool.

3. Forward PSI Magnet - Unlike the regular PSIM, this sticks further out and does damage. It could even be useful if your opponent is near, uses projectile to heal you unintentionally, and then you letting it go afterwards to hurt them in exchange.

I agree with everything except:

• PK Freeze is kinda bad because it freezes instead of killing.
• You might as well use PSI Vacuum instead of Forward PSI Magnet against no energy projectiles, but honestly I never really hit with either, lol.

 

[Uffe]

I agree with everything except:

• PK Freeze is kinda bad because it freezes instead of killing.
• You might as well use PSI Vacuum instead of Forward PSI Magnet against no energy projectiles, but honestly I never really hit with either, lol.

I think it's safe to say that the ones I referred to as good are useful because we've seen Lucas use them. I wish PKFr would actually launch opponents upward at high percent. I don't like PSIV because it leaves you open and you have to be close to use it. If it had more range, then I could see it being somewhat useful. If it was like Fox's Reflector without the reflective characteristics, that would work, too.

 

[Noa.]

The pros of custom moves is that they can further improve a character. They're not that much different in the sense that they're the same attack, just with different attributes. The cons, however, is that there wouldn't be an exact tier list, or that it would make figuring out match ups and a tier list take a very long time. There are 49 characters in this game, 51 if you add the other two Miis. That means there are 204 different customs in total, and that's including the default ones.

I think Ness has the worst custom moves. 2232 are just bad and here are my reasons.

2. Rising PK Flash - You can slightly move it, but it only goes straight up, and nobody is going to stick around to get hit by it unless they're newbs using Bowser or Yoshi, and using their Down B to try to hit you. Even then, it has a slower start up, so your opponent could easily fast fall and hit you. This is probably only good as an attack for opponents off stage who like recovering high.

2. PK Bonfire - It's shorter in range and slower than the original. The only positive it has is that it lasts longer, if it hits. You can get punished for pivot PKF, so you'll definitely get punished with PKBF.

3. Rolling PK Thunder - Though it does about 7% more damage, it's not that quick. Plus, in this game, Ness has a chance at recovery, so why would you risk it with this?

2. PSI Vacuum - You're better off using the Forward PSI Magnet, because you can still deal damage and absorb projectile.

The most reliable are the defaults and 3323. Here are my reasons for 3323.

3. PK Freeze - It starts off high and comes down low. If your opponent is off stage, this might pretty useful since some players like to recover high and some like to recover low. Plus, it's quick, and if it lands, they'll be momentarily stuck in ice.

3. PK Fire Burst - This has further range than the other PKFs. It knocks back the opponent as well.

2. Lasting PK Thunder - Recovery is slightly shorter than PKT2. However, it pushes opponents, and you can even catch them in tailwhips. You can also go through shields with LPKT2, and if it hits the opponent, then it does multiple damage, but only seems to do 25% total just like PKT2 and has lesser knock back. The color of it also looks cool.

3. Forward PSI Magnet - Unlike the regular PSIM, this sticks further out and does damage. It could even be useful if your opponent is near, uses projectile to heal you unintentionally, and then you letting it go afterwards to hurt them in exchange.

I will agree that rising pk flash is practically useless and not worth taking. I personally don't think pk freeze is worth taking because it has the same trajectory as pk flash and is no easier to hit. I would do a bajillion damage and probably kill them then do less damage and freeze them.

And PSI vacuum is like flat out better than the psi magnets against opponents who don't have energy projectiles. I find it pretty easy to land and it eats up spotdodges very easily. I don't thin it'll ever kill but it has enough knockback to send the opponent far away enough to gain more stage control.

I have never tried to use lasting pk thunder so I don't know how it compares to default thunder when juggling. If it has similar juggling capabilities than perhaps it's worth using in matchups that can punish Ness's recovery a lot. I would consider using it if it can threaten just as must damage when the opponent is offstage or high in the air. The superior recovery would be worth losing the KO potential of pkt2.

I suppose forward psi magnet vs default magnet just comes down to personal preference. Having a hitbox and a greater range to absorb is great, but is it worth a worse healing ratio? 1.6 to 1.2 is a pretty significant loss. I'm sure it comes down to personal preference.

So our useable customs could be pk fire burst, lasting pk thunder, and both other magnets?

 

[Ranias]

So our useable customs could be pk fire burst, lasting pk thunder, and both other magnets?

I can agree with that. I wonder what the others think, though.

 

[TheEnderFriend]

I can agree with that. I wonder what the others think, though.

I don't use it very often, but rising flash is good for juggling IMO. Also, lasting thunder knocks opponents away rather than towards like the normal one does.

 

[Luco]

I actually have reservations about PKF burst, the only reason being that Ness' SH mechanics mean trying to buffer it makes the bolt go over most people's heads and if you try to time it you can risk landing and failing haha.

Still though, it seems like these 4 for a start are still potential options:

1111 (default)

1112 (for non-energy users)

1311 (For ranged PKF against peeps who SDI out of it easily)

1312 (combination of the above)

How do we feel about these as our first 4?

 

[Noa.]

Default doesn't count towards the custom move set limit. It's ten slots plus default.

Those would be the first three. We can have every move set possible if we are limiting ourselves to only three custom moves we want to use. If we have four we want to use however we will have to cut one or two of the possible movesets to fit them into 8.

And we have four between pk Fire burst, lasting pk Thunder and both magnets.

 

[Luco]

To be fair, the only real advantage to lasting PKT is that the ball doesn't get destroyed by people jumping in to it... which rarely happens anymore anyway. I think the PKT2 distance might even be slightly shorter.

Up to you guys though.

EDIT: oh actually, no wait, it does mitigate people jumping into PKT2, so that's something to consider actually.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It looks like Ness and his friends are already pretty far along on this adventure and that you guys are sorting most of this out pretty efficiently. I would like to clarify exactly what we're looking for. We want up to three critical sets that represent Ness's best options across match-ups (excluding 1111 which is always available, though I know that's a fully viable set for Ness). After we get those up to three critical sets, we want to fill the rest of the slots up to slot six with supplemental sets that may be more niche either in representing less popular opinions, match-up specific stuff, or perhaps team-centric options. For instance, I know that most Ness players are very fond of default Pk Thunder, but at least one set including Lucas's Pk Thunder would probably be a good idea since there is a subset of player that, well advised or not, definitely wants the recovery security that move offers. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 so these options can be explored more in depth by all players, and of course, 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import on tournament day.

 

[Luco]

I'll go ahead and edit the first few ones into the OP, as well as 2222 and 3333 as per requested by Ampharos.

Slots four, five and six still need to be filled, this is where the debate will probably be. Do we try to go for anti-air with rising PK Flash? Do we try PK Bonfire against characters that make stationary objects (i.e. Villager's tree)? Is PSI forward magnet more useful than PSI vortex in some match-ups?

For my thoughts on this, I feel rising PK Flash just won't see use. We have plenty of other options for going against people above us, this option feels very limiting. As for the other two, whilst I think PSi vortex would probably be the better option, i'm not truly sure on either.

 

[Tikao]

Ness doesn't realy gain that much with custom moves on

rising pk-flash is way to easy to dodge in situations where we could abuse our pkt1 juggle or our momentum in generel, using it would allow the opponent to land safely, so it would just be a big risk and we will lose the momentum we just gained

pk-freeze isn't the best move, realy hard to hit and you don't kill with it

(++)pk-flash is also slow and realy hard to hit, but you actually kill with it, there are not many MUs where our neutral-b will be usefull, but you can use pk-flash to gimp some charakters and actually kill them

pk-bonfire, i realy wanted to make this move happen, it has more endlag, less range, but the exact same startup, aerial versions of it would give you the same landing lag,it stays out longer, is bigger and deals more damage, BUT it is way easier to SDI out of it, the fire pillar deals more knockback then the normal one, with either the landing or endlag, there is no possible way to follow up on it, if the opponent knows how to SDI

Lucas' pk-fire is way slower than the actual pk-fire of lucas, it has more range and is maybe a little bit faster, but not by much
obviously no follow ups possible

(++)pk-fire the one side-b where we can actually follow up with something, SDI is possible, but you won't get out of it it immediately
you might not get that grab or fsmash all the time, but maybe a nair, a dashattack etc., the important point is, it put's you in a good position and gives you some momentum, even if they SDI out

strong pk-thunder does more damage and it gives you more killpower, but why make it even easier to get gimped, have fun recoevring with that

(++)pk-thunder you can recover with it, pkt1 has a piercing effect at the start, pkt1 can be used to juggle qiute well, pkt2 still does some crazy knockback, with airdodge lag you can actually hit poeple with it when they try to dodge your pkt1 juddling

Lucas' pk-thunder wont give you that much of an advantage while recovering, since normal pk-thunder has the same piercing effect at the start, pkt1 juggling is not realy good with this, and your pkt2 kills later

(++)psi-magnet our standard healing move without a hitbox, heals the most but is useless against some characters without projectiles to absorb

Lucas' psi-magnet absorb hitbox more in front of us, has a hitbox in the middle when releasing it (which is way smaller than Lucas' used to be) and is about as fast as normal psi-magnet, but heals less, this hitbox is nearly useless imo, therefore i prefer normal psi-magnet over this one

(+)psi-vacuum doesn't absorb energy projectiles, but has a (quite laggy) hitbox near ness (which is still better than the one of Lucas' psi-magnet), maybe you can mindgame someone with it, haven't actually tested this one that much, seems worse than absorbing energy stuff, but better than nothing, if there is no energy stuff


tl;dr

1111 standard
1112 no energy based projectiles

 

[Noa.]

So the sets we have decided on so far look good. The only other options that should be represented are lasting pk Thunder and forward psi magnet. We can implement three more sets.

1121 - default with lasting pk Thunder

1113 - default with forward psi magnet

1223 - Lucas set minus pk freeze

 

[Luco]

Whilst I certainly agree with @ Tikao in regards to the analysis of our moves, in the interests of the project I think we should probably come up with the 3 sets anyway. I like the idea of lasting PK Thunder and possibly Lucas' set minus PK Freeze, though forward PSI magnet seems like the biggest flaw in this. What if we changed the last one to 1222 so that Lucas' set could be used for non-energy users (i.e. he has PSI vortex instead)?

And then all we'd need would be one more... but this is just my opinion here haha.

Gonna tag @NAKAT here to see if he can give any advice as well, if he so desires. After all, if these sets will be uploaded to every tournament wii U then it makes sense our top players should have input. Would tag FOW but I know he never checks the boards anyway.

 

[Noa.]

The fact that forward psi magnet is bigger and has a hitbox means that it's harder to punish and is better for smal projectiles. I know against Mario I would prefer forward magnet because it's be easier and safer to absorb the fireballs than with the default. It's a slight advantage but I know @ Uffe prefers forward.

 

[Luco]

I feel like if the forward-facing PSI magnet could be cancelled whilst retaining it's damaging hitbox at the end that'd be soooooo good, haha, but I suppose that's fair enough. I'd have to think about it, but for now we can agree on a default with lasting PK Thunder?

 

[Noa.]

For sure default with lasting I agree.

 

[Uffe]

The fact that forward psi magnet is bigger and has a hitbox means that it's harder to punish and is better for smal projectiles. I know against Mario I would prefer forward magnet because it's be easier and safer to absorb the fireballs than with the default. It's a slight advantage but I know @ Uffe prefers forward.

I prefer the default PSIM, but with customs I'd choose FPSIM over PSIV, though it was mentioned earlier of what possibilities you could use with PSIV, so I'm fine with all there, I just like them in a particular order.

 

[Luco]

Adding default with lasting PKT to our list. 2 more slots to go.

Just want a consensus/a bit of time for people to give their opinion before I add stuff.

 

[Noa.]

Decided builds:

Slot one: 1112 psi vacuum

Slot two: 1311 (Ranged PKF for spacing and those who SDI out of it easily)

Slot four: 1121 (lasting PKT for recovery security)

Slot three: 1312 pk fire burst and psi vacuum

Slot five:1321 pk fire burst and lasting pk thunder

Slot six: 1322 pkfb lasting pkt and psi vacuum

Slot seven: 2222 (to be explored)

Slot eight: 3333 (to be explored)

I think those sets are good enough. Meh most of us will just use default Ness anyways lol.

Other sets we could use.

1122 for lasting thunder and psi vacuum

1313 pkfb and forward magnet

1323 Lucas set minus pk freeze because why not

 

[Luco]

I like PKF burst and lasting PK Thunder, but for slot six do you think it would be a better idea to go 1323 for those forward PSI Magnet users? I don't think we've any so far that have incorporated it, and it's probably not a bad set to use it in conjunction with.

So would people be okay if slot five was taken by 1321?

 

[Ranias]

Decided builds:

I agree with the first 4 slots at least.

I like PKF burst and lasting PK Thunder, but for slot six do you think it would be a better idea to go 1323 for those forward PSI Magnet users? I don't think we've any so far that have incorporated it, and it's probably not a bad set to use it in conjunction with.

Yeah, I think a Lucasy build might be popular anyways. Forward PSI Magnet isn't bad. PK Freeze is bad though.

So would people be okay if slot five was taken by 1321?

I don't think I would personally use it. Having either Lasting PK Thunder or PK Fire Burst should be good enough to play keep-away, but both is kind of repetitive. It's not that bad though for recovery security on the Lasting PK Thunder and instant damage on the PK Fire Burst.

 

[Luco]

Slots seven and eight were specifically asked by Ampharos to be 2222 and 3333, so our job is just to figure out slots five and six.

I'm thinking Lucas set minus PK Freeze might be the way to go then. 1323, i'll add it now but we can change it if needed.

That means one more slot to go!

Seeing as this set will be very very specific, we should probably cater it to the tastes of peeps back here who use slightly different builds. That's why i'm thinking 1321 for people who like playing keep-away; though to be honest if there's one or a few people here who want a set in particular I haven't already described then we could probably just do that seeing as chances are there'll be more people who want that build too.

Just edited the OP so it was up to date,

 

[Luco]

Okay guys, I decided for the sake of time and that most people have had some input and whatnot that slot six would be taken by 1321, HOWEVER this announcement (thus the double post, I totally apologise in advance if there's something more efficient I could have done!) is to draw attention to the second post in this thread which is the decided list of builds. I'd like you guys to have a look over it and tell me whether you think it's a good list with enough variety to satisfy most Ness users. If you guys want to change it, then we'll discuss and review it and see what can/should be changed. Once you guys are happy with it as a collective group, then we can send it in to Amazing Ampharos and he can compile it. Our work will be done, and customs will probably be seen in competitive play again (it's now a full on project with behind-the-scenes backing I believe )! So when that happens, give yourselves a big pat on the back and know you helped do something awesome for the community. :D

I'll do a list of credits in the OP once that's done to acknowledge everyone that helped out. <3

 

[Noa.]

I think it looks quite all right honestly.

 

[PSIBoy]

Except for 7 and 8, I'm fine. Although, not sure what we could put in there... Perhaps PK Bonfire for anti-villager-tree, but there could be better options (1212).

 

[Luco]

Except for 7 and 8, I'm fine. Although, not sure what we could put in there... Perhaps PK Bonfire for anti-villager-tree, but there could be better options (1212).

Yeah, everyone seems to feel a little awkward about slots seven and eight; but those were specifically asked for by Amazing Ampharos so unless we have sets that clearly trump them it might just be better to leave them as is?

 

[PSIBoy]

Yeah, everyone seems to feel a little awkward about slots seven and eight; but those were specifically asked for by Amazing Ampharos so unless we have sets that clearly trump them it might just be better to leave them as is?

Hmm. True, that. I don't see much use for Lucas PSI Magnet nor Big PKT since, well, Lucas PSI Magnet has already been debated about and Big PKT... While it may be powerful, it's lackluster range makes it impractical for recovery purposes. PK Bonfire probably won't have much use, and Lucas PK Fire I don't find that useful on Ness. Rising PK Flash is an anti-air, but there are better moves suited to that. PK Freeze is practically a slightly faster, longer, and weaker PK Flash that freezes, not very useful either. The only customs I can see useful are Lucas PKT (prevent gimps) and PSI Vaccum (non-energy users). So, can't really contribute much else.

 

[Luco]

Alright, so to update you all, a preliminary list has been made by Amazing Ampharos which will be sent to TOs to be used for upcoming tournaments. This list can be changed; and the only reason it was done so early (while we barely had time to review it) was due to pressing time concerns and a worry that the longer the project is left, the harder it will be. If we wish to change any of the sets in post #2, bring them up and we'll discuss it. Otherwise... fantastic job guys, i'm so happy you all got on board and most of our work is done. <3

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

PSI Vacuum is critically underappreciated.
Of course it will seem very bad if you're trying to use it as an attack, that isn't its role.

The most valuable property of his second down special is the attractive force it generates, not the damage.

As most of us know, good players can escape PK Fire very reliably by holding away from the pillar and will DI out of it.
This is where PSI Vacuum comes in. It creates a no-win scenario for them, by counteracting their DI and keeping them in the fire, or drawing them through the fire, to you, for you to release the move and damage with the small pop at the end of the special. This impact is magnified when combined with a PK Bonfire (side special 2) which is larger and lasts longer, doing a greater amount of total damage. PK Bonfire is a lot harder to land, however, and may not be as efficient as the standard PK Fire in terms of DPS. It comes down to preference, but if you can do this even once with PK Bonfire it will be very much worth it.

PSI Magnet is completely useless in many matchups, and while Lucas' magnet increases the utility, it is still a worse option than most other attacks at your disposal. Bonus? PSI Vacuum can pull people offstage with you and mess up certain characters' recoveries. (Pac-Man's trampoline and Peach's parasol, for example.)

 

[Ranias]

PSI Vacuum is critically underappreciated.
Of course it will seem very bad if you're trying to use it as an attack, that isn't its role.

The most valuable property of his second down special is the attractive force it generates, not the damage.

As most of us know, good players can escape PK Fire very reliably by holding away from the pillar and will DI out of it.
This is where PSI Vacuum comes in. It creates a no-win scenario for them, by counteracting their DI and keeping them in the fire, or drawing them through the fire, to you, for you to release the move and damage with the small pop at the end of the special. This impact is magnified when combined with a PK Bonfire (side special 2) which is larger and lasts longer, doing a greater amount of total damage. PK Bonfire is a lot harder to land, however, and may not be as efficient as the standard PK Fire in terms of DPS. It comes down to preference, but if you can do this even once with PK Bonfire it will be very much worth it.

PSI Magnet is completely useless in many matchups, and while Lucas' magnet increases the utility, it is still a worse option than most other attacks at your disposal. Bonus? PSI Vacuum can pull people offstage with you and mess up certain characters' recoveries. (Pac-Man's trampoline and Peach's parasol, for example.)

Never thought about using it like that. I usually try to grab and pummel all of the PK Fire damage in if I can.

 

[Luco]

How big is PSI Vacuum's range though? Against good players, by the time you get anywhere near close to them, they've already SDI'd and jumped out. Can this counter-act their DI at near max range? Where would you have to be to get the most out of this, and is it better than a grab --> Dthrow combo at low percents (though at higher percents I think it could definitely be a contender, just not so sure about the lower percent ranges)?

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

How big is PSI Vacuum's range though? Against good players, by the time you get anywhere near close to them, they've already SDI'd and jumped out. Can this counter-act their DI at near max range? Where would you have to be to get the most out of this, and is it better than a grab --> Dthrow combo at low percents (though at higher percents I think it could definitely be a contender, just not so sure about the lower percent ranges)?

It doesn't take much time to give it a try against the Sandbag. Its range is about equal to PK Fire's. Most importantly, it is quite strong and can negate the influence of DI and it comes out quick enough to work before they can sufficiently DI out. If you want to give it a try online just let me know and we can try out some different scenarios. Sometimes people can jump out before it works, but I've gotten the computer plenty of times when the jump didn't get them far enough away in time. It definitely needs more testing on humans.

As for grab -> downthrow you may still be able to do it. You only need to hold down B long enough to stick them solidly into the pillar so they spend more time trying to DI out.

Standard PK Fire
4-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2% Total Damage: 22%​

Getting all that damage is pretty worthwhile. That's not even including the possibility of a vacuum pop at the end, or a grab combo that may reduce total hits, or if done without pushing them out of the pillar, can pummel to bring it ever higher still. Can anyone find the totals for PK Bonfire and the PSI Vacuum's burst, so we can compare DPS efficiency?

 

[Ranias]

Can anyone find the totals for PK Bonfire and the PSI Vacuum's burst, so we can compare DPS efficiency?

The problem with using PK Bonfire is that it has long startlag, endlag, and short range. It's just really unsafe to use against good players, especially if they DI well. But if you are saying that you can negate DI then it may be worth it.

I'm testing out PK Bonfire and PSI Vacuum combo. The endlag on PK Bonfire is too large to catch even a lvl 3 CPU Bowser in a PSI Vacuum before he escapes.

A full PK Bonfire does 44% damage. A close range PSI Vacuum does 10% damage.