The customs project: Ness edition

[Noa.]

It's best to find someone in your area who has a 3ds unlocked with all the customs, and transfer custom sets to all the wii us in the scene.

While you can unlock all the custom moves by manually unlocking yhem, it's much faster to just use a power save. The hardware for it costs about 20 or 30 dollars, but it allows you to hack your 3ds games. You can unlock all the custom moves in less than a minute with a power save.

 

[Luco]

Situationally, PK Bonfire may or may not be useful against say, Luma. The range might be too short for it though. Forward PSI magnet may or may not be useful in the ditto for edge-guarding purposes... that's about all I can think of though. =P

 

[NAKAT]

I plan on playing Vanilla Ness, but will test these on stream. I am not a fan of customs being legal.

 

[NAKAT]

I plan on using no customs, but will test them on my stream for viewers.

I am against them being legal.

 

[Luco]

I plan on using no customs, but will test them on my stream for viewers.

I am against them being legal.

That's really interesting. Would you care to share why? Personally I'm quite pro customs (even though I always use vanilla Ness myself), so I'd like to hear your opinions. =)

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness' custom sets should be simple. As @ Noa. said, there's only 3 worthy ones. The custom presets should simply be a combination of those 3 mixed around.

All defaults, Lucas thunder
All defaults, Lucas fire
All defaults, Vacuum
Lucas thunder+Lucas fire
Lucas thunder+Vacuum
Lucas fire+Vacuum
All 3

That's 7/8 sets. Last set can be whatever you want, I don't think it matters. The least bad one after the good customs is probably like... Rising Flash or Bonfire.

I'm kinda worried about customs hurting Ness' tier placement actually. I like normal Ness too, and I think I'd only ever really use Vacuum unless I was REALLY getting gimped hard (which very rarely happens).

 

[Luco]

I don't mind if Ness pulls down to high tier to make way for customs, it means he's less likely to be nerfed ever.

Nah but like, I doubt it will be that bad. Some characters will indeed get better tools to deal with us (our villager MU will probably get pushed to even or maybe in villager's favour considering the absurd range of pocket plus), but for the most part we'll still be very potent. Bthrow and our aerial dominance is just so strong, I doubt we'll 'drop' so much as other people will rise. When you look at it that way, it feels unlikely that we'll drop too far below top tier.

But I could be wrong. =)

 

[Earthbound360]

I mean, by virtue of everyone around Ness rising, Ness will in essence drop lol.

 

[Luco]

Yeah, but for one I think Ness won't drop that far, it's not like characters get ridiculous tools that just 'make' them top tier even when the moves are very good (though yes they may get better MUs with us), some characters do certainly get better but it's rare that a kong cyclone equivalent will come up and cause a character to run up the tiers.

Even if so, I feel the merit behind customs generally is for the better, seeing as it reduces the range of tiers/squashes the tier list and besides, overall more threats to our threats will become common as well so... I dunno?

 

[Earthbound360]

Uhh... ya lost me on that last part of your post Luco

Also, Rosalina will be a PROBLEM. I don't find vanilla Rosy to be bad. Custom Rosy is broken.
I sorta feel like custom moves weren't balanced with the best care...

 

[Luco]

Uhh... ya lost me on that last part of your post Luco

Also, Rosalina will be a PROBLEM. I don't find vanilla Rosy to be bad. Custom Rosy is broken.
I sorta feel like custom moves weren't balanced with the best care...

Oh! What I was basically saying is that customs generally don't benefit the already good characters as much as they benefit the characters that are severely lacking certain options without those customs. In this way, the tier list overall will be a lot more squished together (as in, balanced overall) because the 'worst' characters will probably be on a level of Brawl Sheik or DK and the 'best' characters at a level of Brawl Marth or Snake, which when you think about it is surprisingly compressed for a smash brothers game.

And I believe Ness moving down slightly is worth that trade off. Besides, it's not like moving down a few spots is really going to hurt his viability in such a balanced game, and where his options are still pretty solid overall IMO. ^_^

 

[Noa.]

Idk very few characters are actually added to high tier in a customs environment. It's just that mid tier characters don't suck anymore. Most of them are still not good enough to be high tier though.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The argument for Ness being helped by customs even though his personal customs are not incredibly impressive is basically this. Customs improve the balance and diversity of the game and will cause a greater diversity of characters to be seen in tournament. The characters who are now being played who might not have before very well might lose to Ness just on their independent merits whereas the top tier characters those players might have been playing otherwise might have beaten Ness, improving the average match-up that a Ness main will face in tournament. PSI Magnet shutting down a few high power customs (like Snaring Aura Sphere) definitely helps with this. I'm also not completely sold it's all bad for Ness with the customs; I mean you get a strict upgrade in a lot of match-ups with PSI Vacuum.

I can definitely attest that Ness is... difficult to fight as Rosalina whether Rosalina has her customs or not. Shaky beats me like 90% of the time; there should be some kind of law against setting innocent Lumas on fire.

Either way, it sounds like the picture is pretty clear for how to fill out Ness. Lasting Pk Thunder, Pk Fire Burst, and PSI Vacuum are Ness's main worthwhile customs and all combinations should be iterated which fills 7 slots, 7 seemingly common sense choices to make with our current understanding of the game. The bottom 3 slots would be filled by sets built from whatever you can find that may help otherwise. A Pk Bonfire set for setting Lumas, hydrants, and trees on fire seems logical (with PSI Vacuum since none of those target characters have energy projectiles); the move is poor overall but that niche seems more worth pursuing than other options Ness has at the moment. Rising Pk Flash may be worth including some sets for; it's at least interesting. Forward PSI Magnet I see occasional support for but I can't say I fully get it; is the move of any real use?

To spell it out fully, I feel like the following 7 sets are "definitely in" unless the meta develops in the next month to change things:

1112
1121
1122
1311
1312
1321
1322

And the following seem like a logical way to round it out:

1212
2111
2112 or 1113 (depending on whether Forward PSI Magnet would be useful in some MUs or whether it's better to give two choices of how to use Rising Pk Flash for whoever likes it).

Does this make sense to team Ness? We have until mid-March to sort things out so definitely go on ahead and dig in, but this seems to be the direction of the current thinking.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah. The first seven sets are pretty important and all have some use.

The last 3 can have anything really. It doesn't matter much. Even though rising pk flash and pk bonfire are pretty bad I could see some use for them. Lucas's magnet is positioned in a way that makes it easier to absorb projectiles that are traveling in a vertical incline. Still not good though. Idk how the frame data for Lucas's magnet compares to default's.

A combination of rising flash, bonfire and Lucas magnet might work for the last three sets. Maybe even having a moveset with all of Lucas's customs. I could envision someone wanting that.

And I have to reiterate that lasting pk thunfer is quite good and very useful. I prefer it in quite a few wats to default thunder. I have to test with it. I might make a thread soon.

 

[Luco]

Lucas' magnet seems like an easier way to gimp Ness himself, other than that the move is mainly very situational. It might be good to have it in there due to a lack of other viable stuff. PK Bonfire I think is quite valid as anti-luma tech, and rising PK Flash I could see having some situational use in conjunction with juggles against characters with low mobility (like, Robin?).

 

[NorCal_DSS]

I have yet to actually play with any of Ness' customs. From what I've seen, I only find Lucas' Up B to be useful in regards to recovering. Other than that, Vanilla Ness is the way to go. I'd rather not play as Lucas.

 

[NAKAT]

uploaded me using some customs. Check them out here when the video goes up

youtube.com/Leapoffaithnakat

 

[Pazx]

Lucas's magnet is 2 frames slower on startup but lasts 3 frames fewer than the standard magnet IIRC.

 

[Noa.]

So about lasting pk thunder:

 

[Earthbound360]

Wtfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

 

[Noa.]

I'm telling you lasting pk thunder is a very good move and definitely can outshine default pk thunder in certain matchups.

I really want to lab up with it to find all the nuances. Then I'll post a thread.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I was wondering if trapping them in a thunder circle would be possible, but not to THAT extent. Nice stuff!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A Lucas set (3323) tickles my fancy, even if it's probably not all that good in practice.

Depending on how much damage it does, PK Bonfire may oneshot Luma or at least come very close to doing so. It has about 50 HP.

 

[Noa.]

A Lucas set (3323) tickles my fancy, even if it's probably not all that good in practice.

Depending on how much damage it does, PK Bonfire may oneshot Luma or at least come very close to doing so. It has about 50 HP.

A Lucas set wouldn't be that good, but we have three free slots.

And PK Bonfire can actually one shot Luma sometimes. Though usually it just leaves her with like 9 hp left or something. I still doubt that it's useful, but we can have one PK Bonfire set.

 

[Pazzo.]

So are these the sets?

I'd like to see one with Rolling PK Thunder. It's matchup sensitive, but so is PK Bonfire.

 

[Noa.]

In what matchup would you want to use rolling pk Thunder?

 

[Earthbound360]

At the very least, I can imagine it being incredibly funny against a missed sing or broken shield.

 

[Lukingordex]

I believe we need to analize in which match ups lasting pk thunder could be a better option than the normal one.

Lasting Pk thunder is a better recovery option, but at the price of losing some of our pk thunder juggles since it won't disappear when hitting someone and is slower.

Something we also should note:
In some match ups, lasting pk thunder is better for edgeguarding (like sheik, for example), while in others normal is better (like Diddy, for example).

 

[Noa.]

Idk I think which pk thunder fits each matchup will come with time and tournament experience. It's difficult to say now really.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

BLARG I wish PK Freeze was better. I mean I wish PK flash was a better move in general considering Thunder is typically better at juggling and edgeguarding but Freeze just feels like such wasted potential. Giving it Lucas's momentum would have made it a solid option.

 

[Noa.]

BLARG I wish PK Freeze was better. I mean I wish PK flash was a better move in general considering Thunder is typically better at juggling and edgeguarding but Freeze just feels like such wasted potential. Giving it Lucas's momentum would have made it a solid option.

I'm truly surprised that while PK Flash is one of the absolute worst moves in the game, both custom versions are worse. Somehow.

 

[Earthbound360]

I mean hey, I guess any move can be worse if you make a version of it that has less knockback and damage :\

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I guess it was made for Smash Run enemies weak to ice or something?

 

[Shiack]

so any new applications for any customs ?

 

[PhantomTriforce]

Can someone explain to my why Down 1 and 2 are preferred over 3? I don't like PSI Vacuum at all - it is very weak and will only work in some situations, unless I am missing something. And Forward Magnet seems like a straight upgrade from the default as it can damage people at the end.

In any case my favorite sets are 1113 and 1123.

 

[Noa.]

Forward PSI Magnet heals much less than default. The difference is like 1.6 to 1.2, which is pretty significant.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Forward Magnet also has higher ending lag, if I'm not mistaken, and the increased range forward doesn't really help for much save for fighting another Ness. And Ness has much better options for attacking in front of him for the hitbox to be worth it.

 

[Earthbound360]

If you want a good attack, get the Vaccuum. It's suction makes it have a very good "range."
If you want a good heal, use the normal magnet.

Lucas' magnet falls in between those two, which doesn't outweigh the diminished heal and lag.

 

[FuPoo]

So about lasting pk thunder:

i lold

 

[yoshi8984]

Ness' customs aren't great, honestly.

Seriously how'd you make PK Flash even worse and also I miss the Hexagon sparkles from Lucas' PK Freeze ;~;

PK Fires can't be lag cancelled (at least with a full hop, I think if you do them just as you descend from your double jump and full hop height you can) so that was a HUGE turn off for me.

I actually don't have PKT customs, but why use them? Lucas' is slower and I find that it going through things gives up your ability to juggle and it's kinda pointless when you can very well tailwhip with the original one. Though what Noa posted was indeed hilarious as hell.

The only thing I can see being used are the Magnet customs to grant you an extra hitbox in MUs where you can't absorb anything lol. I'd use the Vacuum for sure if the range was greater (I thought it was like Rosa's Gravity Pull range at first lol). I'd probably just stick with Lucas' even though the customs to remember him aren't worthy compared to what Lucas could actually do with them.

-

I'm not getting the setups with Vacuum though... Like:

As most of us know, good players can escape PK Fire very reliably by holding away from the pillar and will DI out of it. This is where PSI Vacuum comes in. It creates a no-win scenario for them, by counteracting their DI and keeping them in the fire, or drawing them through the fire, to you, for you to release the move and damage with the small pop at the end of the special.

Can't you just run in and dash grab them instead? By the time you're in vacuum range, you probs could've just grabbed them instead. o.o

ALTHOUGH, I think I did find a use for the Vacuum; that being to cover ledge getup options (unless they let go and jump back on with an aerial or something)