The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[TomBoComBo]

I think the opponents shouldn't have invincibility upon breaking out

 

[Scatz]

I think the opponents shouldn't have invincibility upon breaking out

As much as any Yoshi doesn't like seeing opponents get invincibility frames for popping out of an egg, it's not a reason to use it more often. That part has been consistent in every SSB game that I know of, and for the pros vs cons part, I feel like it definitely outweighs in our favor to use it when dissecting the situations it can be useful for.

Egg lay has tons of applications!

• Yoshi has very close range attacks on his aerials so egg lay works great against people who want to shield grab or attack OOS
• Has 0 commitment vs grounded targets if they make anything but a hard read
• Can be B-reversed as a platform mixup and gives Yoshi more aerial mobility
• Repositions targets, even if they break out immediately they're in the air which gives you an advantage against a lot of characters
• Great OOS option when n-air won't reach

A lot of this, but there's much more that I don't think many PM players have noticed in its utility. In Brawl (since it's based off that), Egglay was amazing for mixing up approaches on shield while remaining safe. A command grab that is able to be B-reversed, Turnaround, or Wavebounced is amazing for applying pressure while keeping yourself at a retreating position or while mixing up on an opponent's shield. Adding to this, Egglay has a special property that was retained from Brawl where one frame after the regular grab box would bring in an opponent, but Yoshi would never swallow him/her. Landing that gave Yoshi about 30 frames to do anything he wanted.

And about the invincibility, I actually don't mind it since there's much better tools to apply pressure when they pop out now. Crouching right beside the egg keeps opponents from being able to hit you (I think for almost all moves). You can throw an egg in one direction to force them to either dodge the egg in the direction you want them to go, or take the hit, which allows you to get more damage out of it. Slow aerial characters and bulky characters would have a complete nightmare since it's hard for them to get out of it when done right.

Funny thing is, even if they were to get used to the egg pseudo vortex, a correctly placed DJC egglay at their height would force them to take the damage. It was harder to do in Brawl because of the freedom to move after ADing, but since ADing puts characters in a freefall state, that gives us the opportunity to get a free hit or place more pressure if they try to beat us to the ground.

It's a definite tool where many characters HAVE to respect it because of the range increase, short cooldown, and options from the air, and it can even help apply pressure without needing to physically attack a shield or commit to a baited DJC aerial.

 

[RaptorTEC]

So I ended up getting 17th out of 178 at Zenith. I could have done better but there were some silly moments in tourney. Does anyone have any advice on beating Mario's fireball spam?

http://youtu.be/IPZFYSLTMrM
Here's a video

 

[Scatz]

I'll take a look at it when I can get some free time Raptor.

 

[Damp]

So I ended up getting 17th out of 178 at Zenith. I could have done better but there were some silly moments in tourney. Does anyone have any advice on beating Mario's fireball spam?

http://youtu.be/IPZFYSLTMrM
Here's a video

I believe you could simply jab/ftilt the fireballs and wavedash in between them. I'll look more into ways of dealing with it.

 

[RaptorTEC]

But just jabbing them resets the situation again and he keeps doing it. I feel like if you try to wave dash in he can just retreat with more fireballs.

 

[Nikes]

How about a bair approach? Should be able to wall him out and minimize his space to run doing so.

 

[Scatz]

Personally, I felt like the handful of mistakes you made when getting pressured caused the most issues.

Since Mario is all about locking players down, fireballs is his method to start. You were getting it somewhat in the 3rd match where you just need to avoid fireballs instead of challenging them head on in situations where Yoshi has no great attack to cover that angle. SH'ed fireballs just need to be jumped over while FH'ed ones you either go under or wait for the moment to bounce back up so you can fight normally.

B-reversed fireballs are the main ones you have to watch out for though. They're essientially Akuma's Street Fighter HD Remix's version where you just have to avoid it entirely. There's almost nothing positive out of that scenario that most characters can do. You can use DJC in the air to keep some spacing (along with egglay) when the fireball clears enough space for you to do whatever comfortably.

Lastly, if he does a full hopped and short hopped fireball in conjunction, either jump inbetween to avoid the lockdown, or try to find a moment to get over the FH'ed one.

 

[Deleted member]

Hai gaiz :3

 

[Scatz]

You're dead. Died a long time ago. Go away Stocky! ]:<

 

[Deleted member]

Hi scatty Long time no talk. Sorry for dying =[
College and tennis took too much time
But I'm back I think.

 

[Scatz]

Man, I work three jobs essentially now. I don't wanna hear that! How's it been going in tennis? You hit pro yet?

 

[Deleted member]

Nah I'm not that good but its fun Been working hard and getting better. Yeah no excuses I just don't have many people to play with at school so I sort of stopped playing.
But PM yoshi has made me start playing again. So much potential me thinks. You been playing tournaments or nah?

 

[Scatz]

I have, but not with Yoshi yet. Have been leveling up my fundamentals by playing Pika, and working with Yoshi in the lab to get rid of tech skill errors. I've gotten through most of the issues, but now my problem is understanding how to play his neutral game efficiently. It's something I haven't gotten a grasp on so that's going to be my next goal to get past.

BTW, broke my 13th curse a few weeks ago at a big tourney. 9th of 75 peeps. My attendance is steadily dropping though since I've gotten so busy nowadays (3 weeks in and no off day), and with tournament organizing creeping up on me due to having experience, it's slowly becoming my 3rd job. x_x

 

[CBO0tz]

Hey, I just watched a few aMSa gameplay vids at Apex 2014, does Yoshi still have all that tech in PM from Melee?

 

[TomBoComBo]

ehhhh, he has a ****ton of new tech and some of the old tech no longer works. but basic stuff is still the same if not expanded

 

[Damp]

I've been hearing a lot of speculation about Yoshi in 3.5, mostly about his recovery. People seem to think he's getting a tether with a nerf to eggroll or something of the sort. Someone please dispel these rumors for me.

 

[TensenROB]

I've been hearing a lot of speculation about Yoshi in 3.5, mostly about his recovery. People seem to think he's getting a tether with a nerf to eggroll or something of the sort. Someone please dispel these rumors for me.

I've only seen talk of a Yoshi tether from people who think his recovery is bad and don't play the character, and because Yoshi was in one of the pictures in the Lucas recovery blog post. An egg roll nerf seems normal to me when talking about recovery nerfs, but it's already easy to edgeguard.

 

[Damp]

I've only seen talk of a Yoshi tether from people who think his recovery is bad and don't play the character, and because Yoshi was in one of the pictures in the Lucas recovery blog post. An egg roll nerf seems normal to me when talking about recovery nerfs, but it's already easy to edgeguard.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I've see a lot of people saying Yoshi has a bad recovery, when his recovery is actually pretty damn good, especially horizontally. I don't see why the PMBR would give Yoshi a tether, so I'll just assume that it's not gonna happen. If eggroll is nerfed in the air, I would like to see egg toss get a little bump in the air.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I think they'll cut the horizontal distance by a little bit in the air.
other than that, I believe they'll cut eggroll's shield damage, they'll either cut down on Dair's damage or make it easier to DI, and they may brush up on some of Yoshi's bugs and fix parry.

 

[Kudrah]

Yoshi is nowhere near the kind of character that needs a nerf. I'm not gonna flat-out call him terrible, but that lack of third jump does cause problems. The DJ may have armor, but that won't even matter if you're against a character with high knockback aerials. Side B is incredibly risky in the air, too. It has no hitbox at all, and the trajectory is easy to read.

I'm not gonna say he needs buffs, either. Some people want the "short hop" from up-B to come back, but that would mess with egg stalling, one of Yoshi's best defensive strategies. Others are asking for a tether, but that plus side B is way too much. The only thing I want the PMBR to address is fixing his bugs. For instance, random shield pokes.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yoshi is nowhere near the kind of character that needs a nerf. I'm not gonna flat-out call him terrible, but that lack of third jump does cause problems. The DJ may have armor, but that won't even matter if you're against a character with high knockback aerials. Side B is incredibly risky in the air, too. It has no hitbox at all, and the trajectory is easy to read.

I'm not gonna say he needs buffs, either. Some people want the "short hop" from up-B to come back, but that would mess with egg stalling, one of Yoshi's best defensive strategies. Others are asking for a tether, but that plus side B is way too much. The only thing I want the PMBR to address is fixing his bugs. For instance, random shield pokes.

Ummmmmm so... who are you?
MM bro and I'll show you that Yoshi can live to 170%+ almost every stock

 

[Damp]

I do agree with the part about the bugs though. Yoshi's hit boxes are really bad sometimes. Like his down tilt up close.

 

[TomBoComBo]

matters little, Yoshi needs tweaks, not nerfs. @ K Kudrah you need to play Yoshi or have extensive high-level Yoshi matchup experience before you can interject your Opinions especially on this subject.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yeah about his parry...
http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2di7kn/why_yoshis_parry_doesnt_work_in_pm/

What this user said.

 

[TensenROB]

matters little, Yoshi needs tweaks, not nerfs. @ K Kudrah you need to play Yoshi or have extensive high-level Yoshi matchup experience before you can interject your Opinions especially on this subject.

This is unreasonably harsh. Kudrah's posted on the Yoshi boards before and his tag clearly shows he mains Yoshi in PM. He didn't say anything insulting and the elitism is totally unnecessary. The last thing the Yoshi boards need is a hostile atmosphere.

 

[Kudrah]

matters little, Yoshi needs tweaks, not nerfs. @ K Kudrah you need to play Yoshi or have extensive high-level Yoshi matchup experience before you can interject your Opinions especially on this subject.

Dude, I main Yoshi, ever since the DAY OF HIS RELEASE, and I know his matchups to an extent.

Yes, it doesn't seem like I'm experienced, but that's only 'cuz I never bothered to use Smashboards before. I'm actually good friends with @ Scatz and we had glorious Yoshi dittoes together. He was the only guy I knew at the time that actually played Yoshi near his technical peak, and I've been told that my best asset in the game is tech.

To me, Yoshi either dies super early or super late. Depends on the situations, but the armor isn't a guaranteed free recovery. I know my way around avoiding that gimp, but I play against people who know how to read them, so I can't always avoid them. But there are those stocks where I survive at over 200% cuz of godly DI and Yoshi's such a fat dinosaur (5th heaviest character).

Of course, he's not god tier or anything like that. That's why I have secondaries. I can learn tech a lot faster than most people, so I learned Fox to handle MU's where Yoshi has a weak combo game. Using a spacie really does reconsider your mindset sometimes. Knowing how easy it is to gimp Fox for many characters caused me to play a stronger neutral game.

There's not much recorded footage of me playing, but even if you find it, it's horribly outdated 'cuz in the past month, my mindset's been drastically evolving. I'm just trying to explain that I'm not as ignorant about my own main as you would think. I may love Yoshi as both a character and my main, but I'm fully aware of his shortcomings. That's why I revolved my playstyle around playing like a trickster, resulting in an unconventional neutral game that emulates aMSa style at times. It's not always the right approach, but at least it's stylish and fun to watch. I love creating hype, anyway .

@ TomBoComBo , I'll forgive your harshness for the fact that I'm not very well known. I have been to tourneys before, but not ones that were livestreamed, at least not yet. I'm going to Tipped Off 10, and I'm very excited to fight top players. Even if I lose, most opponents still respect how far I've taken the Yoshi metagame, and I can appreciate that kind of respect from really good players, even if it means losing.

Yoshi's a tricky little bugger to get used to, but when he works, good lord he is fun to play.

 

[Kudrah]

On a side note, I'm not sure if this is intentional or a bug, but sometimes, when Yoshi's DJ armor is hit, then cancels to an aerial, he automatically does a full jump. I'm not even holding the jump button, either.

 

[TomBoComBo]

@ K Kudrah I apologize for being Harsh. I haven't seen you before and I just so drastically disagree, I thought you were just some random posting opinions. We agree to disagree.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Been Sparring Nightly with an awesome dude named MessiNYC. CHeck out our matches. It's pretty one sided, but This is relatively where I'm at right now. I Think there are some things that I do in these vids that may or may not be new to you guys. Critiques are welcome, and questions or tip requests are even more welcome. Please let me know what you guys think and show Messi some love for taking these beatings and give him a nice like and subscribe (More videos will be put out regularly)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz0weNbCqpbyZvrMZD0cqqA/videos

 

[Damp]

Been Sparring Nightly with an awesome dude named MessiNYC. CHeck out our matches. It's pretty one sided, but This is relatively where I'm at right now. I Think there are some things that I do in these vids that may or may not be new to you guys. Critiques are welcome, and questions or tip requests are even more welcome. Please let me know what you guys think and show Messi some love for taking these beatings and give him a nice like and subscribe (More videos will be put out regularly)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz0weNbCqpbyZvrMZD0cqqA/videos

Hey tombo, good to see some update gameplay footage. I'd say I've caught up to about your level now. I've been working very hard and have seen huge improvement in my play. What I will say is that maybe you could work some more cross up djc nairs in your neutral game. I find that while a lot of players expect you to cross up their shield in neutral, they very rarely see a djc nair coming. By doing the djc, you can stall in the air a little after jumping behind them, causing them to lower their shield. Then you simply nair and fast fall. And if they do shield that, it leaves them probe to an easy pivot grab. Give that a shot and let me know how it goes. Hopefully I can get some footage for you to look at soon!

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey tombo, good to see some update gameplay footage. I'd say I've caught up to about your level now. I've been working very hard and have seen huge improvement in my play. What I will say is that maybe you could work some more cross up djc nairs in your neutral game. I find that while a lot of players expect you to cross up their shield in neutral, they very rarely see a djc nair coming. By doing the djc, you can stall in the air a little after jumping behind them, causing them to lower their shield. Then you simply nair and fast fall. And if they do shield that, it leaves them probe to an easy pivot grab. Give that a shot and let me know how it goes. Hopefully I can get some footage for you to look at soon!

If you get Dolphin Netplay we can spar any time you want

 

[Damp]

If you get Dolphin Netplay we can spar any time you want

I'll take you up on that sometime even though I despise netplay. Especially when we'll have a buffer at like 7 or 8, but I'll adapt.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'll take you up on that sometime even though I despise netplay. Especially when we'll have a buffer at like 7 or 8, but I'll adapt.

I play on Keyboard and am like #7 on Anther's Ladder lol

 

[Scatz]

Just dropping this here. A bunch of matches where I do lots of experimentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YECVHlv8lfs&list=UUXFyKDK5ZUBRnaK18Um8Vag

 

[TomBoComBo]

Just dropping this here. A bunch of matches where I do lots of experimentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YECVHlv8lfs&list=UUXFyKDK5ZUBRnaK18Um8Vag

Would You like any critique?

Also, melee noises are so buttery compared to brawl noises, I need to do that to my setup

 

[Scatz]

Not particularly considering that I was playing extremely poorly that entire day due to lack of practice and old habits creeping back up.

I'll take thoughts on the efficiency of the moves since I was trying to figure out where they best apply when playing Yoshi.

The Melee SFX is from this thread. Just be aware it's not 100% complete: http://smashboards.com/threads/mele...lly-got-something-finished-check-1073.335236/

 

[TomBoComBo]

Not particularly considering that I was playing extremely poorly that entire day due to lack of practice and old habits creeping back up.

I'll take thoughts on the efficiency of the moves since I was trying to figure out where they best apply when playing Yoshi.

The Melee SFX is from this thread. Just be aware it's not 100% complete: http://smashboards.com/threads/mele...lly-got-something-finished-check-1073.335236/

Give me your thought process. List out the ideas and things you were trying to do and I can tell you how effective they are/they may be

 

[DarkLeviathan89]

Couldn't make it out of pools in Summer Jam. I think I might have gotten 3rd in mine, but only top 2 advances in each pool. Top 16 finishes tomorrow so no results up yet.

This is only my 4th PM tourney so far after playing Brawl Yoshi, so I'm hoping to get better results once I get more tourney experience and more consistent in my execution. I also need to learn some of the more common matchups I see, like Fox, Mewtwo, Mario, Falco...

 

[TomBoComBo]

Couldn't make it out of pools in Summer Jam. I think I might have gotten 3rd in mine, but only top 2 advances in each pool. Top 16 finishes tomorrow so no results up yet.

This is only my 4th PM tourney so far after playing Brawl Yoshi, so I'm hoping to get better results once I get more tourney experience and more consistent in my execution. I also need to learn some of the more common matchups I see, like Fox, Mewtwo, Mario, Falco...

list em off and I got you