The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[DtJ XeroXen]

Somebody should go get the Lucarios, since I'm nearly completely lost on this matchup.

I know their effing Dair will mess up Uair chaining, though. And Iove my Uairs D:

EDIT: CPU, what part of Indiana are you in, I haven't seen you at tourneys O_O

 

[CPU?]

Somebody should go get the Lucarios, since I'm nearly completely lost on this matchup.

I know their effing Dair will mess up Uair chaining, though. And Iove my Uairs D:

EDIT: CPU, what part of Indiana are you in, I haven't seen you at tourneys O_O

i live in indianpolis and i only do tournys at 3d games at the greenwoodpark mall. pretty good competition there.

 

[Judge Judy]

I know their effing Dair will mess up Uair chaining, though. And Iove my Uairs D:

Try Mario's Dair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucario is hard...he's pretty hard to combo sometimes, and he's really campy. If you don't F-smash or U-smash him at that KO percent then you're in for a hell of a time and then he starts outKOing you and stuff.

There aren't many gimmicks otherwise to this matchup aside from edgehogging his recovery...I guess...Just be really good and know his spacing...I guess lol.

I think he's one of Mario's harder matchups overall.

 

[CPU?]

cant mario cape his recovery move?

 

[Judge Judy]

cant mario cape his recovery move?

Yes, but the startup for extremespeed is long enough where you can end up caping too early. Still, you can cape him at any point during the move, knock him out of it during its startup, and use FLUDD on him during its startup. Extremespeed isn't all that hard to gimp, but it does take some practice to learn how gimp it correctly.

 

[CPU?]

are we assuming that mario knows how to for the matchup?

 

[Judge Judy]

are we assuming that mario knows how to for the matchup?

Yes, and on Smashville and Lylat he can't use his Up B to wall cling either.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I didn't find it too hard to out-camp Lucaro, so you should probably try to force an approach if you can. Erm, Bair them out of Dgrabs or just go for the SJP after Dgrab, usually going for the pivot Dgrab doesn't work because they use that effing Dair of theirs.

Don't get hit with their Fsmash, and don't let them destroy you offstage with their Fairs, which shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Does anybody else know that tons of people think that Mario fails offstage? I lold when I heard this.

40:60 Lucario's favor, MABYE going up to 30:70 Lucario's favor, I'm more leaning towards 40:60

 

[CPU?]

so u want to start this out as 55:45 lucarios adavantage?

 

[Judge Judy]

It's not that bad of a match-up, Lucario has range but he's not all that fast and he can't outcamp Mario. The basis for this match-up really is how quickly you can KO him, and since he's not all that hard to gimp it's possible to get low percentage kills despite his weight. However, again, Lucario's range is an issue. This match-up could go either way, so I'm saying 50:50, 55:45 in Lucario's favor at the worst.

 

[CPU?]

same. i just pm'ed a lucario player and hopefully he'll come over to help us

 

[jmanxiv]

I'm saying 50:50 mario, mario can outspam lucario and mario can juggle lucario if he doesn't dair

 

[CPU?]

but he will. so we are saying 50:50 45:55lucario?

 

[RT]

It's 60:40 in Lucario's favor...maybe 55:45 at best. Don't think it's easy to gimp Lucario. You will very rarely gimp a GOOD Lucario.

 

[CPU?]

but lucario is playing a GOOD mario.
so 60:40 lucario or 55:45
id say 58:42?

 

[Ismael]

It's 55:45, Lucario.

You will very rarely gimp a GOOD Lucario.

And a good Lucario will rarely NOT get gimped against a GOOD Mario. Just space and block his powerful ranged moves, and stay on him. I'm almost willing to say it's 50:50.

 

[CPU?]

i think its 50:50 also
mario can't really got to offencive with lucario so the only way if its going to be 50:50 if mario shoots his balls of fire gimps like a PRO?

 

[phi1ny3]

lol lucario is smart enough to let aerials take care of gimping, cape should really only be a real problem. I'd think 55:45 lucario's favor at best for mario, No way is it going to be a simple "fireball" or mere aerial gimp, since we have good answers to that. ES is underrated, even though it is "gimpable" by ledge hog, BAS/fair helps ward people off, and unlike Ivy, we have the ability to get onto the stage with it from practically any angle. You guys obviously know about wall cling, so that won't be discussed to great detail. the problem with trying to edgehog is even though you have cape stalls and such, you have to realise that dair can be used similarly to marth's DB to stall as well, than go for a DJ -> BAS, fair, or uair, and since these are fast, you don't have to commit much to getting them to stop. The other problem with bringing up this "gimp game" is that lucario can do the same, fair strings, bair, AS, dair, and even uair will do just as good a job. While they both can gimp eachother pretty well, the difference is that lucario has a better onstage game, which consists of a much more potent aerial game with nice disjoints, plus a nice projectile that eats AD, spotdodge, and has nice shieldstun stats. On top of that, gay disjoints (did you know that aura bursts have the same properties as MK's sword, with what we call "transcendent priority", or essentially infinite priority? The only difference is, attacking luca's hurtbox cancels this effect).
There's some essential debunking, but this is why imo there is no way this is going to be dead even.
My verdict looking at the best possible metagame characteristics of both is going to be 55:45, even 60:40. This is a matchup that is still dependent more on player skill than stage/character traits, but it is still going to be an uphill battle for mario.

 

[PolMex23]

Get Dk next....i wanna go Mario against Dk......if its a good match up...xD

 

[CPU?]

so how about it? 45:55 lucario? seems fair to me includings ph1ny3's wonderful discription i agree. so do we have a second for 45:55 lucario?

 

[Famous]

DK is fun to fight with Mario...Just spam cape...

 

[Inferno3044]

phi1ny has brought up some points and some things i didnt know about lucario. I'm gonna say 55:45 Lucario but can possibly lean to either 50:50 or 60:40 Lucario. Experience in the matchup is another factor which is why i think it can lean to either side.

DK might be a fun matchup, but I would rather go for marth if possible. I played my friend who is amazing with marth and got *****.

 

[:mad:]

I think we need more discussion before we can just toss this matchup aside. No real summaries by a Mario have been put up, the point of this is to discuss how Mario can win, and what he needs to do.

 

[Matador]

55:45 Lucario imo, arguable for 60:40. Mainly because he beats us aerially and grounded. He has a few defenses and variations for his recovery that prevent reliable gimping meaning that most of our kills will have to come from Usmash or Fsmash. Lucario has excellent DI and can live to outrageous percentages, so this task is rather difficult...and we all know what happens when you can't kill Lucario...

Lucario can combo pretty well, and can kill even better if his percentage is high enough. To make matters worse for us, Dthrow and Utilt followups will be a little more complicated to pull off because his Dair beats Uair and Utilt. Our saving grace is our speed. Mario is quite a bit faster than Lucario and has upB if he needs to break a combo or beat any of his aerials. Dsmash is especially useful here to give us breathing room on the ground.

There've been a few times I've tried to sweetspot the ledge with my upB and the Lucario Dair'd me out of it. Be wary of this.

Edit: I thought we already agreed on 50:50 DK?

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I'm saying 50:50 mario, mario can outspam lucario and mario can juggle lucario if he doesn't dair

Why would Lucario not Dair?

 

[CPU?]

id say for a mario to beat lucario is to just have more skill than him. its really to close to be a character difference. as a mario player i think lucario is a hard to beat character, but i have beaten a lucario and it wasnt easy. first of all use your fireballs. fireballs = spacing and spacing > lucario. even though he has a projectile we can just cape it. when i face a lucario i get to the edge of my stage and fire ball until he towards me. try to preform a couple of combos and get him off the edge. then try as hard as i can to gimp him. if this fails, i'll run to the other end and repeat. marios down air will be your main move when attacking. and use your jab effectivly also. just keep your space and you should be fine. if he is overly aggresive just try your best to space yourself or fight him off with your faster moves to get him away with you (perferably throws) so u can stay away from him. only let him get towards you if your able to get him off the edge. Lucario can be beaten but most likley he will win considering the mario and lucario have the same skill. as i said before i believe the win will come from personal experience, not from the character your using. just remember spacing spacing spacing. which could lead to a win for team mario.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I wouldn't go as far to say we should stay away from him entirely, just don't APPROACH him, for gods sake.

And don't do Uair if you know a Dair is coming. As for OoS options, I'd probably go with Dair or Nair on this one, mostly personal preference against the matchup, SJP would probably work just as well too.

You'll most likely end up killing with Usmash, since I (think) it outprioritizes their Dair, and Fsmash is still a good KO move as always, which I WOULD KEEP FRESH, IN THIS MATCHUP. (I keep it fresh in every matchup, though, I generally don't use it till K.O. Percents.)

I'm still for 40:60 Lucario's favor, for me, at least, it's a horrible matchup.

For the record, I lose to people's Lucarios who say they are better with other characters, but I destroy their other characters (wdfx is that?)

EDIT: CPU, do you even play Mario that much?

 

[Matador]

I never use Fsmash unless it's for killing. It's like Mario's slowest move.

 

[CPU?]

I wouldn't go as far to say we should stay away from him entirely, just don't APPROACH him, for gods sake.

And don't do Uair if you know a Dair is coming. As for OoS options, I'd probably go with Dair or Nair on this one, mostly personal preference against the matchup, SJP would probably work just as well too.

You'll most likely end up killing with Usmash, since I (think) it outprioritizes their Dair, and Fsmash is still a good KO move as always, which I WOULD KEEP FRESH, IN THIS MATCHUP. (I keep it fresh in every matchup, though, I generally don't use it till K.O. Percents.)

I'm still for 40:60 Lucario's favor, for me, at least, it's a horrible matchup.

For the record, I lose to people's Lucarios who say they are better with other characters, but I destroy their other characters (wdfx is that?)

EDIT: CPU, do you even play Mario that much?

i use mario and GaW the same

 

[Matt07]

Ooh, you have to camp Lucario. LOL I always tried approaching him. Maybe that's why I hate this match-up so match, I hate playing campy >_>.

 

[Inferno3044]

For the record, I lose to people's Lucarios who say they are better with other characters, but I destroy their other characters (wdfx is that?)

People have matchups they are bad against character wise. Maybe Lucario and his fighting style is a character that is just a pain for you.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I never use Fsmash unless it's for killing. It's like Mario's slowest move.

I know right, you ALWAYS get punished for it, but for some reason alot of Mario's use it. I'm always just like "Why?"

And yeah, camp your fireballz out during this matchup, just hum a tune like I do when I'm camping, it usually stops me from getting bored. Like when I counterpick Ice Climbers, I have to do a little hum to get the infinates right :D

EDIT: Yeah, Lucario destroys me, but I'm gonna learn the matchup soon-ish. Whenever I MEET another Lucario IRL, I'm gonna so jump on those friendlies.

 

[CPU?]

i always thought iceclimbers where for god tier because the can infigrab any one to a percent to be able to ko with one smash.

 

[Judge Judy]

i always thought iceclimbers where for god tier because the can infigrab any one to a percent to be able to ko with one smash.

IC have trouble landing grabs and the grab infinites and combos only work while Nana is alive, plus it doesn't help that Nana has bad AI.

 

[Samuelson]

I think this matchup is really hard for Mario. I would say it's about 35:65 in Lucario's favor.

 

[Matador]

I think this matchup is really hard for Mario. I would say it's about 35:65 in Lucario's favor.

I wouldn't go that far. 60:40 at worst. 50:50 at best.

 

[phi1ny3]

What Judge Judy said is true, plus some of these infinites are tough to pull off and semi-unrealistic, especially if the opponent is smart with platforms.
@Sam I won't go as far to say this is **** matchup for mario. Actually, I kind of lean towards 60:40, partially since most really underestimate luca's recovery and forget that lucario can dish it out just as much, but it's mario board's decision, so I'm open to 55:45 if it's not on our turf per se.
btw, if lucario is letting you cape his AS, he's doing an awful job using it (with the exceptional offstage AS to bait a reaction like that).
also @ whoever said "usmash outprioritizes dair": aerials don't per se get outprioritized or clank, but they do get out-ranged and stopped by faster moves. I take it the former option applies for usmash. Keep your smashes fresh, be careful with luca approach, it's good, but he doesn't have too much besides fair or bair wall/approaching and feints from that.

 

[Samuelson]

I just think it's really hard for Mario to get in. We seem to out range and out prioritize most of his moveset. He can't exactly kill very well...he NEEDS to get a gimp but that is easier said then done against Lucario. I think our Aura Sphere starts going through your fireballs at 29% maybe 39% i'm gonna have to check that.

It just seems like a pretty bad matchup for Mario....WC doesn't exactly have any amazing Mario players though.

 

[tedward2000]

Oh, and btw, Cario's aura doesn't clank. It's a "energy" so for what ever reason, it passes through things while doing damage.

You can still clank with his feet/paws, but aura isnt physical. Same goes for Mario's fireball. The Fireball isnt physical, so it will clank with aura (canceling each other out).
Fireballs are Mario's saving grace in this match-up, and my god they are fuggen annoying. Use them wisely, and they will bring you good results.

If your just gonna spam them for the hell of it, lucario can just walk away, no harm done and charge a AS.

Second little tid bit, Lucario has crappy horizontal grab range, but... Its much better vertically. Both his normal grab and FPG can pluck you out of the air like flies. It's crazy. And it just might work.
-t2