The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[:mad:]

Ahh Olimar, you know you love him. Now.

Olimar is a versatile character in the sense that he can be played extremely campy or extremely aggressively. Mario has to adapt to what the Olimar main is doing. Say the Olimar is playing campy, he will always be doing his Side B which is the Pikmin throw. Mario has been gifted with a cape. The cape CAN reflect the pikmin back at Oli and hit him with his own Pikmin. If you manage this, the Olimar will either start to sheild or do a Down B whistle.(In some cases, its just easier for the Olimar to kill his own Pikmin and then quickly pluck more.) This gets the Pikmin off of the Oli main and allows him to continue camping. What you'll want to do when playing against a CAMPLY Olimar is watch out for Olis insane grab range and Pikmin throw move. You can easily counter the Pikmin throw with teh cape, then approach with an aerial. Remember, he cant grab you if your in the air. This, however, brings up the fact of what if he sheilds my aerial? Well, chances are he'll go for Dsmash or an Usmash, perhaps a grab if hes looking to try and combo you. Both the Dsmash and Usmash come out pretty quickly but are incredibly easy to see coming. If he tries to smash you, sheild and then grab him. This opens up into Marios incredible Grab game which can get the Oli off the stage and set up for an easy gimp. Oli has a tether recovery, which is his biggest weakness. If you throw him off the stage, hit him with a Bair, and then cape him, hes toast.

Aggressive Oli is another beast, though. I will update this post after I use the restroom.

Olimar has little range in the air, putting him at a slight disadvantage. His Uair and Nair are the only things Mario has to really worry about. Mario isn't so strong if you stay under him. Mario does have the tools to win if he avoids the pikmin throw and can gimp effectively.

Well Hippo you really know how to steal the facts, also I find it is easier for people with many characters to just quickly grab the edge of the stage to gimp olimar. It does not take to much work to gimp olimar tether recovery. A good cp stage could really help win a match against a campy olimar. If you can keep track on what pikmin is up next for an attack that helps to. A blue pikmin means that the olimar is most likely planning for a grab, if you have high damage that blue pikmin can kill you with a back throw or heck an upthrow. If a purple pikmin is up for an attack, it can kill pretty soon with a up smash or down smash. Stages with low ceiling should not be picked in this match. Olimar can get in some good combos early in the match. I say 45-55 olimar's favor . Darn my grammar is bad.

Purple Pikmin have little range, so it's not likely to call purple pikmin a real gamebreaker. The chances of Mario being in kill range, close enough for you to hit, be in a position where he can't do anything, and the you having a purple pikmin on hand are slim, slim enough to mean nothing in this match. Also keep in mind how small Olimar is, he'll die fairly early. Mario can "combo" pretty much any character, he has some amazing aerials. A majority of Olimar's game revolves around throwing pikmin, and with Nair and cape, Mario eliminates a key factor in Olimar's game. Mario can avoid grabs, seeing as how despite having good range, they're very slow. If he spotdodges, you'll be eating a dsmash.

The matchup is even at worst.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

it's 55:45 Olimar
Mario's fireball camping gets beat out by reds and purples, Olimar's Nair breaks through all of Mario's aerials.

The only legit advantage Mario has in this match is the fact that Olimar's recovery is pretty bad and Mario is really good at gimping...

 

[Judge Judy]

Well, here are some pros for Mario:

+Fireballs hurt Olimar's grab game

+Olimar is extremely easy to gimp

Edit: Monk pretty much covered everything

 

[Inferno3044]

it's 55:45 Olimar
Mario's fireball camping gets beat out by reds and purples, Olimar's Nair breaks through all of Mario's aerials.

The only legit advantage Mario has in this match is the fact that Olimar's recovery is pretty bad and Mario is really good at gimping...

I'm not the best at gimping Olimar because whenever I try to edgehog, I get stage spiked. How do you effectively gimp Olimar?

 

[ViceGrip]

Sry to go off topic in your thread but did u guys ACTUALLY decide that mario has an advantage over Ness? lol, that's all theory, NOT in practice at all. Mario is cakewalk in my experience. Just gotta keep him at bay w/ fair and use nair to punish him every time he manages to hit Ness w/ an ariel and it's basically and it's gg. You guys don't fight enough Ness spammers like me. It is a funny joke that I like to play along w/ though that Fludd is 100/0 to Ness heh.

 

[:mad:]

Sry to go off topic in your thread but did u guys ACTUALLY decide that mario has an advantage over Ness? lol, that's all theory, NOT in practice at all. Mario is cakewalk in my experience. Just gotta keep him at bay w/ fair and use nair to punish him every time he manages to hit Ness w/ an ariel and it's basically and it's gg. You guys don't fight enough Ness spammers like me. It is a funny joke that I like to play along w/ though that Fludd is 100/0 to Ness heh.

Actually, I'm a Ness main myself. I use Mario and Ness equally.
I played was playing Veril's Lucas earlier, and it was surprisingly easy. Massive johns on his end.

I have no idea what the current Mario vs. Ness ratio is.

 

[vato_break]

i **** ness

 

[:mad:]

We're not talking about Ness. This is Lolimar.

 

[ViceGrip]

yea, talk about lolimar people. ummmmm, reflect pikmin? how effective is cape for stopping olimar camping game anyhow

vato ***** ness

 

[HeroMystic]

You can out-camp Olimar btw.

 

[Matador]

Purple Pikmin have little range, so it's not likely to call purple pikmin a real gamebreaker. The chances of Mario being in kill range, close enough for you to hit, be in a position where he can't do anything, and the you having a purple pikmin on hand are slim, slim enough to mean nothing in this match. Also keep in mind how small Olimar is, he'll die fairly early. Mario can "combo" pretty much any character, he has some amazing aerials. A majority of Olimar's game revolves around throwing pikmin, and with Nair and cape, Mario eliminates a key factor in Olimar's game. Mario can avoid grabs, seeing as how despite having good range, they're very slow. If he spotdodges, you'll be eating a dsmash.

The matchup is even at worst.

Oli's grabs are slow? I don't think Olimar has a slow ANYthing when you take his massive range into account. Not only are they moderately fast coming out, but the ending lag is pretty low as well. This is especially bad for Mario because he has a problem with shieldgrabbing because of his range. Since Oli recovers so fast from his attacks, he can put up his shield pretty quickly and grab Mario out of whatever attack he's using regardless of how impeccable his spacing is.

Also, while purple pikmin may not be a gamebreaker, they can kill considerably lower than normal. Combine this knowledge with the fact that he comes out pretty fast from Usmash, Fsmash and grab, and you have a legitimate danger in this matchup.

Edit: Mario beats Ness. We've discussed it like 4 times now. I dunno the ratio, but it's not Ness' advantage. Fair and Nair are certainly threats, but not insurmountably so.

 

[KirinBlaze]

God, Kirin. You're so helpful. Thanks for the summary, although I'm pretty sure Olimar Upsmash beats Dair.

I'll check their matchup thread.

I get to play this match-up quite often in tournament since Dabuz comes to a lot of ours. He's an insanely good Olimar and I learn a lot about the match-up's do's and don'ts every time I play him.

 

[Judge Judy]

Oli's grabs are slow? I don't think Olimar has a slow ANYthing when you take his massive range into account.


Not only are they moderately fast coming out, but the ending lag is pretty low as well. This is especially bad for Mario because he has a problem with shieldgrabbing because of his range. Since Oli recovers so fast from his attacks, he can put up his shield pretty quickly and grab Mario out of whatever attack he's using regardless of how impeccable his spacing is.

His grab comes out in 12 frames which means two things:

-One, you can prevent grabs most of the time just by keeping fireballs out

-Two, his grab is not a very good OOS option while his shield is being pressured

Olimar's grab range is good and has little lag, but the slow startup makes it fairly easy to avoid if you're playing carefully. What Olimar's long and lagless grab really means is that all of Mario's approaches need to be protected in advance with fireballs and ground approaches probably aren't a good idea.

 

[:mad:]

Compared to any normal grab, yeah. 12 frames, which really isn't bad at all.

We seem to have a lot more activity now that Olimar's being discussed. So we're all for 55:45 Olimar?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I've played Hilt's olimar, but not really enough to have much of an opinion on this.

Er, Nair can go through Oli's Usmash and Fsmash if you aim it right (I.E. Don't get hit from directly under with the Usmash)

That's really all I know, I haven't played Oli that much D:

EDIT: I'm okay with 55:45 Oli, mabye even 60:40 Oli. Whateva'

 

[Judge Judy]

Compared to any normal grab, yeah. 12 frames, which really isn't bad at all.

Yah, 12 frames isn't bad, but it'd be like trying to use the cape OOS while you're shield is being pressured; it's just not going to work on quicker characters. Olimar's grab range is good for 12 frames, it's just that the grab itself is very predictable and Olimar doesn't really have a great way of dealing with fireballs; Pikmin Throw just doesn't cut it for preventing fireballs approaches, especially with the cape. Olimar's grab is really more for preventing ground approaches and punishing mistakes.

We seem to have a lot more activity now that Olimar's being discussed. So we're all for 55:45 Olimar?

Yah, I can go for that; Olimar has his impeccable range while Mario has gimps and fireballs.

 

[:mad:]

Alright, 55:45 Olimar, arguable for 40:60. Olimar doesn't exactly have the best range in the air, so I'd also give more credit to Mario on that part.

So far, we have Ice Climbers, Falco, and Dedede as the next characters. Any votes?

 

[Judge Judy]

We could go over IC which I see as either 55:45 or 60:40 in IC's favor; leaning more towards 60:40.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Ice Climbers, definantly. I'd say at least 60:40 Ice Climber's, though.

But at least it's not too hard to avoid the grabs.

 

[Judge Judy]

Dair and fireballs are your friends in this match-up, plus the cape makes it a lot easier to deal with ice blocks and blizzard.

 

[:mad:]

Ice Climbers it is. You can start on discussion now, I'm gonna edit the OP.
And I think we're all clear on the "seperation is the key" way of playing. Just split them up and knock out Nana. If they recover, cape it. Only one will make it back.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Ice Climber matches are generally campy, because of the "Don't get grabbed" mentality about them. So, what do you do? You camp. YAY! Camping is fun, make a fire *ahem* anyway, camp with the fireballs, you can generally out-camp them (I think, may need verification, don't play ICs that much), and your cape will cancel out the ice blocks (unless they're de-synched, in which case it DOES reflect). When they appraoch, it'd probably be best to use Dair if they're on the ground, making sure to avoid the grab at all costs. If they're in the air, go all out at them, it's your strong point, abuse it.

Gimping-wise, you can grab the ledge to prevent Nana from recovering, or if you can predict a side-b, you could cape it. Don't go all cape-happy though, throw some aerials and fireballs in the gimping too, it's fun, AND you become less predictable.

Final words of advice: AVOID THE GRABS!

 

[Judge Judy]

The cape can reflect both blocks but it's inconsistent so I'm not sure how it works.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

The whole match keep one thing in mind: Nana ****. Can you do it? Always be looking for moments of desynchronization to exploit. If you focus on attacking Nana, then it will get easier and easier to desynch them because she will receive more knockback than Popo will because her invisible damage meter will be higher than Popo's. Get Nana off the edge of the stage ASAP. A good Popo will, of course, follow and try to save her. You can try to finish off Nana via Fair spike or just by knocking her out too far, or you can turn your attention on stopping Popo from getting near Nana. If you play it well, you can trap Popo out offstage as well. This means you've just earned yourself a stock, because his Up B will do pretty much nothing to get him back. Solo popo can be engaged fairly easily. He's nothing special without his lady friend. His smashes still hurt (maybe even more surprisingly), though so be wary. Finishing him off shouldn't be hard, since his recovery is now the worst in the entire game.

A lot of Ice Climbers will simply spam their freaking Ice Blocks until approach.

1. If you can outcamp them here, then they will be forced to approach.

(If they try to approach) And you know what they're going to try to do? What's that? Grab? OF COURSE! They may also try some dumb aerial approach, but Mario's sexy bair should be able to beat that. Another option they have is the Squall Hammer (side B). This move is just annoying really. If you can punish it, do it. I really don't even care about this move since it really doesn't get anything done. Anyways, chances are, they'll be going for the grab. Do whatever you have to do to punish the grab attempt. You could time an Fsmash if they're really stupid (not recommended you attempt more than once or twice). Or you could time a spotdodge (but again, don't do this too often or they'll simply wait for the dodge to be up and then you're in a world of chaingrabbing pain. Also note that if you spotdodge a Squall Hammer it's still going to hit you. They can mindgame you in this way.). What I like to do after these options are too predictable is A) jump away and camp moar B) Space a move with decent range and little lag. Bair might work here if you do it straight from the jump. If you can desynch them, go into Nana **** mode.

(If you can't/don't want to outcamp them) You'll have to approach a little sometimes. Fireballs never KO'd anyone (barring gimps).

2. Most Ice Climbers tend to abuse their Blizzard for defensive purposes. While it is a good move that can do a LOT of damage (like 30%) if you get caught in the middle of it, it is VERY laggy and punishable. Your job is to bait one. Stick to the air. Use Bairs to try and poke them, but don't leave yourself open (rising Bairs are safer). Eventually they will use Blizzard instead of going for grabs. Blizzard will beat out Bairs or other pokes. Which is why you watch their pattern and wait for it. When you see the Blizzard, punish it by shooting a fireball through it, going over it and Dairing them (which might desynch... Nana ****!), or waiting till it ends and squeezing a quick attack in right after. If you you can get a Dthrow off, you can combo one of them, making the damage meters of the two unequal, making it easier to desynch.

3. If you do get grabbed, button mash VERY FAST and hope for the best. You can get a "get out of jail free" ticket if your % is low enough. You can also surprise SDI the Nana spike chaingrab and cause them to miss on the regrab, and sometimes it avoids the forced get up.

IN summation: Camp/Bait > Punish > Nana **** > Gimp/KO

STAGES: Battlefield is good against these guys. You can run around on the platforms all day, while shooting fireballs or popping down for a quick Bair, etc. It's actually really fun to fight Ice Climbers on this stage for some reason.

Don't go to FD. Period. Also be hesitant to go to Smashville.

Hope that helps. I don't actually use Mario, but I do play against a LOT of Ice Climbers. It's actually a pretty fun game to play against once you know how they roll. If your going to use a different character, you should switch to Marth or Zelda or ZZS. The same principles apply, just use the right moves.

 

[Judge Judy]

As far as Blizzard, you can also cape it.

 

[:mad:]

You always add these little tidbits most people wouldn't know, Judge. Although I'm must move of us knew about blizzard.
You're a mystery, you know that?

 

[Fatmanonice]

it's 55:45 Olimar

Really, you think it's that close? Dang... I need to adjust my strategies then because good Olimars are pretty much the only characters who still trash me as Mario.

 

[Stray Element]

I know you guys moved on to IC now, but I just had to ask why you all think Olimar has the advantage? I read the posts but what people seem to be missing is that Mario's N-air beats ALL of Olimar's pikmin attacks except for U-air and the pikmin chain, and it beats most of the non-pikmin attacks like Olimar's Nair and down/side tilts. Think Olimar is going to U-smash you? Nair, your safe as long as as the Nair is still out. Think he's going to try and spike you? Nair! Got pikmin on you? NAIR!

Seriously Nair beats Olimar. If you just approach with it from the right angle Olimar cant really do much aside from attempting a grab. Merely the fact that Nair can stop almost all of his attacks I think prevents Olimar from having a real "advantage" in this matchup.

 

[HeroMystic]

Stray is pretty much the only Olimar player who has faced my Mario, which is why he would know the awesomeness of N-air.

 

[Flameleon]

The secret of us, Marios, is to let the enemy know than he has the advantage and use that as a mgame xD

 

[A2ZOMG]

I haven't played a good ICs with my Mario yet...but I think Mario could somehow win if you somehow space perfectly the entire match so that you don't get shieldgrabbed.

You have D-air on their shield and D-smash and Cape is RAAAAAPE especially when they are separated. F-smash often seems to hit Nana a lot but make sure you space it at maximum range just in case it doesn't.

On Battlefield, you can outcamp them with fireballs as the platforms will save you from their Ice Block camping, and Fireballs > Blizzard.

And of course the usual ramblings about killing Nana, gimping them....and stuff.

 

[HeroMystic]

Separate and beat the snot outta them.

 

[hippiedude92]

Problem is that ICs always expect ppl to seperate popo and nana as obv >.> Just like melee too lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

They expect it but never can stop it.

 

[Ismael]

Dair = insta-seperate.

Kill Nana off stage with bairs and such, while knocking away Popo while he desperately tries to "catch" her and upb/sideb back to the stage, and just gimp Popo.

Just watch out for their smashes, they're way stronger than you think. Even when it's just Popo. He can also chain grab Mario to a certain percentage when it's just him as well.

Even when they get knocked away, ledgegrabbing and gimping Nana as she gets the much smaller boost in their upb is pretty easy.

Overall, I think Mario has the slight advantage. Just don't get grabbed, and be wary of their smashes. Mario can cape blizzards, iceblocks, squall approaches/recoveries... they don't seem to have alot of options other than CGs and landing their strong smash attacks.

We should alert the Ice Climber boards for their input, but they're probably going to say the same thing: Chain grabs...

 

[Famous]

It's not a good idea to cape blizzard...Just avoid it completely if possible. Dair and FBall camping is important

 

[Teh Future]

Camping platforms is dumb, you'll get upaired repeatedly for like 50% and I dont think there is much Mario can do about that.

Ice Climbers are probably one of the easiest characters in the game to gimp with Mario though because you can cape squall and upB is terribad.

Dont do anything that can be shieldgrabbed though, use dair to shield pressure until it pokes and then try to knock them off the ledge and go for a gimp.

 

[:mad:]

If only Ice Climbers were more like Luigi, it's near impossible to shield grab most moves because you slide so far.

If you can force an Up-B, you can make sure only one of them makes it back, since Popo's gonna be immobile. And squall knocks them both out. Bair and Uair are their most reliable aerials, kind of like Mario.

 

[Matador]

Never played a good ICs, and I really don't want to. I do see a few things that we have going for us here, but just remember that they only need a few grabs to close any gap in percentage that we manage to create.

Our grab game is completely negated by both of them being onstage, so don't try it. It's hard to be grabbed out of Dair, so abuse it. Camp them with fireballs and gimp them if they give you the opportunity. They're relatively floaty so cape will toss them pretty far per hit and competes with their range. Their grab range is quite possibly WORSE than ours too...and that's pretty bad. They can infinite too, but we have a little more leeway on our spacing on shield.

I'm also not sure how effective Fludd is in this matchup for separating them, but I know FIHL completely freezes their squall hammer, especially when recovering. Abuse this.

Educated guess? 55:45 to 60:40 ICs.

 

[_clinton]

Hi Mario boards...please complain in this thread about Mario's Metagame thoughts on the Ness match up...don't wait too long though because I plan to move on fast with this...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7140976#post7140976

Stat wise it is dealing with what the other has on Ness...and how Ness could counter it...not what Ness has on Mario...