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The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

A2ZOMG

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I dunno, I think it's neutral, and the advantage depends on the stage.

Not sure, but looking at things quickly, you probably have him on FD, SV, RC, and Frigate. He has you on BF, LM, Japes, Norfair...

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

bobson

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My entire experience with DK has been getting completely ***** onstage and then taking a stock whenever I managed to get him off it. DK can't really do anything about the cape, so abuse that to its full potential. Pretty much everything will go through fireballs, too, so fireball spamming isn't guaranteed to cause an approach.
Also, footstool offstage. It wrecks him.
 

HeroMystic

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Alot of confusion about the ratio here. Let me use my experience with Abscent's DK do the talking here.

First, DK's ground game >>> Mario's ground game. They just can't really compete here. DK has far better range and a much better grab game. DK's power moves also allows him to kill Mario pretty early (100% is usually all he needs for fresh D-Smash to kill) The most that Mario should be doing on the ground is using his GTFO moves like jab/D-smash and killing with F-Smash.

Second, Mario's air game >>>> DK's air game. Keep in mind Mario's B-air and DK's b-air trade hits. In any other case, Mario beats DK in nearly every way, and can combo him into oblivion. U-air chains are deadly here, as well as the D-throw -> U-air combo if you're able to get a grab off.

As for killing, remember it's harder to kill DK than it is for DK to kill Mario. However it's beyond easy t o gimp DK with all of Mario's tools. So in reality losing stocks should be pretty even.

As far as stages go, I've always felt that DK was harder to fight on-stage when there are platforms around. This means stages like Battlefield are disadvantageous to Mario. DK's U-Smash is a real pain, and you don't want to make it easier for him to use it. A straightforward stage like Final Destination or Smashville are your best bets here. You don't really need counterpicks for this fight.

To summarize, it's a Speed vs Power match-up. Rack up damage on him as quick as possible, and keep him in the air as Mario dominates DK there. Watch out for his grab game and avoid his kill moves at all costs.

Overall, it's a 50:50. But if I had to go in anyone's advantage it'd be Mario's.
 

daisho

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With no actual experience in the matchup im just going to say some things.

DK has the advantage against almost every character that he is hard to kill and he can kill people early. In a game where killing is the only important thing, that ~50% difference is huge.

That being said, Mario can combo DK at early percents which help make up the differential.

Another advantage for Mario is that he can cape DK's recovery. The problem is that DK is so heavy that the only move that will make him use his Up B that Mario has is his down smash (at a reasonable percent). So those early KOs are not really going to happen very often.

One thing that was not really mentioned was that DK can gimp mario's recovery. DK's Bair and his up B are both good edgeguarding tools and as far as I know, mario can't do much to disrupt that (I may be inacurate so if I am tell me).

DK outranged mario in pretty much every way. Fireball camping won't work, in order to play DK you need to know how to get around spam and mario's spam really isn't as good as other character's.

DK's Giant Punch ***** anything you can do... if he is steaming you really have to watch out for it (the nine wind is a lot harder to land, but is more deadly).

Watch out for DK's grounded up B, it will poke your shield if you get hit with most of it.

Overall I predict DK's stocks to last till around 130 and mario's till 100-110, so i give dk the 53-47 advantage.
 

Ragnar0k

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A good dk should be living to at least 150% with good DI and braking on average. Fresh downsmash can kill mario below 100 and fsmash and donkey punch kill way lower.
 

hippiedude92

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Okay I'm liking this discussion this is what I needed, tho I'd love to hear DKs input.

First and foremost, notice anything about DKs shield? it's prone to shield pressure. That means our Dair shield pressure spam is what we want. He can shield pokes so badly and we can space so we dont get punished it's one of my fav tools to spam in the matchup.

Usually good DKs live up to 150%s+. DK is a heavyweight who lives forever so if he has like 100%, that's like 50% to him considering his DI/momentum cancelling lol.

You'll want not to go to platforms unless you know how to keep the pressure on him in combo-ing state. Flat stages will want you to fireball camp but (imo exp) for a big guy like DK, he can PS it but then again that's player natural. But otherwise he can use a nice spaced ftilts to cancel it and still you.

The problems ive had with him is that, I usually eat a fsmash and a giant punch. (btw whats a 9 swing giant punch? ppl keep saying that idk what it means)


usually when i get dthrowed by dk, i get ftilted/dtilted to a downb which gives me like 20% or 30%? >.>

Duno why but i've always been scared to gimp DK. If i hug speed hug the edge, he will not receive the upb landing lag and lands in the position of a fsmash >.<
 

Inferno3044

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everything on that was perfect except for the failed fair spike. I don't think there's anything that wasn't said except that DK is a big target and it's easy to get some good damage in with dairs and U-tilts. But yea it's easy to gimp DK, but (as probably all the Mario players know) Up-B eats through FLUDD so yea just cape him for a gimp.

I see it as it's close. but Mario has some things to give him an edge. 55:45 Mario
 

Darknid

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I'm a DK, and I know the matchup fairly well.

Basically, you can't beat him on the ground, you shouldn't spend a lot of time on the ground, never do a grounded fireball or anything really because you will be hit from long range by DK's arms.

By the way, his bair beats yours, it's just as fast, has less lag and has longer range. If you throw out a bair you may hit him but if he spaces, don't contend it. Use fireballs to piss him off if he is bair approaching, if you hit him and he turns around in the air, that's a free punishment.

Spam fireballs as much as you can, and stay just above him in the air with cape, this can kinda trick him because a lot of DKs will shieldgrab you once you land because of his great grab range/grab game. This is a devastating tactic against most characters, land with caution every time.

Also, when you're at high %s, just stay away from him unless you have a safe approach. He will kill you at 80%, probably.

Basically, all you want to do here is combo him until he's at a decent %, then knock him offstage and gimp him. That's your best strategy, because I doubt anything you have except F smash will be killing him until 130-160% depending on the stage. Try to take his second jump with a fireball, then cape his up B. If he's coming up from directly below, you won't gimp him, don't try to edgehog him, you'll just end up getting stage spiked. Use FLUDD if it's charged.

Basically you have to play smart, you can't afford to make mistakes. DK can get an easy 30% on you with one combo, then another 37% with just one move. He racks up damage quickly, well, not really but since you'll die in 7 hits from DK, you really need to play it safe. It should also be said that you shouldn't let DK get near you either, he will **** you close up as well. His D tilt causes you to trip and that can mean a free F smash or grab for him. If he grabs you, you're in for some pain. You want to have some fireballs in between you as you approach, every time.

I would say 50-50 IF NOT 55-45 Mario advantage.
 

daisho

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A good dk should be living to at least 150% with good DI and braking on average. Fresh downsmash can kill mario below 100 and fsmash and donkey punch kill way lower.
I was taking into account that sometimes DK will die at low percents because of the cape. I know if you just get hit with a regular attack you won't die for a while.

I still say that mario will live to more than 100 on most lives.

And the video you showed is complete garbage... that DK is terrible (not just at playing DK, but at brawl in general).

And also, why are the Mario boards so much more active than the DK boards...
 

:mad:

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I was taking into account that sometimes DK will die at low percents because of the cape. I know if you just get hit with a regular attack you won't die for a while.
It's possible to force a DK gimp at less than 50%, as long as you can toss them offstage. When returning to the stage, you're forced to face Mario. Your only reliable 'GTFO' move that would stop the cape would be Nair, since Fair is too laggy. As long as we prevent DK's double jump from allowing him to recover, there's a good chance he'll lose a stock.

I still say that mario will live to more than 100 on most lives.
Of course, so long as Mario can avoid any smashes, with good DI, he can live to about 120.

And the video you showed is complete garbage... that DK is terrible (not just at playing DK, but at brawl in general).
Absolutely.

And also, why are the Mario boards so much more active than the DK boards...
Total Posts: 4,738
Posts Per Day: 35.43

Because I've had way too much free time on my hands.
 

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Short of throwing him off the edge. :p
He'd have to literally jump off for a 0% cape.
 

DtJ XeroXen

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Ohmygod I missed the entire DK matchup discussion.

Idk though, I haven't ever played a DK... ever. Watch me lose to one at my next tourney due to not knowing the matchup.

I hate not knowing matchups -_-'
 

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I'd lol. You really need to play more.
 

Matador

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Sorry I'm late.

50:50 if not 45:55 DK.

We've already gone over the obvious stuff like DK's weight, KO power, and gimpable recovery, so I'll just go ahead into specifics.

Cape ***** DK close to worst in the game onstage. Reason being that cape is safe on shield meaning capejump to bait shieldgrabs, shield pokes, DK has no disjointed hitboxes so it outprioritizes his everything, AND he has alot of dedicated attacks. Use it whenever you feel vulnerable or you predict an attack. It'll work wonders. Don't be afraid to pivot backwards while grounded.

Fireballs are your best friend for approaching (if you plan to approach) so keep them handy. Don't be afraid to lob them offstage before you come in for a cape gimp if you're trying to force an upB out of him. Speaking of which, DK's recovery is easily gimped by cape, BUT DK can just as easily recover high to protect himself. If you can manage it, Fair meteor works well on DK because of his short vertical recovery. DK also has an insane momentum cancel with upB that works as well as G&W's, but leaves him in a freefall afterwards. Punish this at any cost. Cape will certainly do the trick. DK's upB is ridiculously amazing on the ledge. The invincibility frames on startup and the initial knockback give it the ability to easily beat our upB and allows him to auto-regrab the ledge. For this reason, I wouldn't recommend capeglide vs DK since he could easily grab the ledge before you get to return. Try your best to stay out of this situation; there aren't many options for you here.

Unless you're on a stage with a low ceiling, don't bother saving your Usmash. Like A2 already said, it is amazing in this matchup because of its priority and where it puts DK above your head. Just don't forget that your Utilt is also great for getting DK above you for combos. Grabbing is essential in this matchup as well, since DK's not safe to attack on shield. Stay unpredictable because DK's grab range >>> yours, so grabbing from the front is only safe if you're faster grabbing than he is.

If you're in KO range, remember than DK's safest KO move is Utilt (unstale). It's quick and kills at around 110% IIRC. Next is Uair, which makes capestalling above him ridiculously unsafe because of how high he jumps. This alone is why I think BF isn't as good as it normally is for Mario in this particular matchup. Dsmash usually follows the novice DK's spotdodge, but a seasoned one will often use the initial hit of Dsmash (while DK has his arms above his head) to kill. Generally around 110% is where you'll find this killing, and it's the most likely to be unstale since it's the least safe. DK's Fsmash can kill at stupid low percentages, so don't get hit by it; it could cost the entire match.

More to come...

Edit: DK can cargo spike at higher % if you don't mash out quick enough, but under 100%, you can easily escape it by holding up on the control stick when he grabs you. You'll break out every time. This requires no timing or anything. Once he's grabbed you, just hold up until you're out.

While platforms give him about as much of an advantage as they give us, I'd probably still go BF since we can keep pressure well here, and DASS (dash attack stage spike) works on its ledges. FD I personally wouldn't try because of how easily he could wall us with Bairs there. I can't think of a stage that gives us a huge advantage though.

Overall, I'm thinking 50:50 or slight advantage DK because he completely outranges Mario, kills much faster, and can wall very well with his Bair to keep Mario from getting in constantly. Once he's got his momentum, it's hard to stop him. If the Mario is adept at comboing and gimping however, DK is in trouble because approaching DK isn't all that difficult even with Bair.

In the event that you live in an area that still hasn't realized how bad Luigis is and you're forced to play DK here, keep one half of the mansion destroyed at all costs and camp on that side. If DK has to approach you, the threat of his downB is gone until he's successfully gotten within your range. Don't forget to jab lock either.
 

DtJ XeroXen

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Thanks for the last tidbit, Matador, with the whole Mansion thing, it's a counterpick here. :D

And I do play lots Straked, there are no DKs in this region, and I hate onlie with a passion. (Unless we've got a gooooood connection)

Lots meaning a few times a week, that's a lot of playing for me, lol.
 

Matador

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Yeah. Every MK, Olimar, Lucario, or DK that I fight, I do that. It makes the match infinitely easier.
 

Inferno3044

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DK seems pretty easy, mainly because I like doing "gtfo the stage then gimp" whenever possible (normally they will catch on but mistakes happen and can result in a nice gimp kill) According to what's been said, that's easy for Mario to do in this because his recovery sucks vertically speaking. It's why I like going against characters so have easily gimpable recoveries. I know with other factors going for DK ( its not a good advantage like 60:40. Personally, I say 55:45 Mario arguable for 50:50.

Also I see it kind of different that Matador would say DK has the advantage and Darknid says that Mario has the advantage. You think that someone would try and get any piece of scrap to give their character the advantage,.
 

HeroMystic

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We Marios care about accuracy more than gaining an advantage.

Also, keep in mind you can wall-tech the cargo stage spike. DK can still attempt to gimp, but it'll at least give you a fighting chance to get you back on the stage.

I can see clearly why Matador would argue 45:55 DK, but I don't think it's enough since DK can be combo'd to oblivion and has so many unsafe moves.

EDIT:
You should've gone for a double fair and killed yourself like I do.
I couldn't really do anything since I was so freaken pissed that spike didn't go off. That's why everything went downhill after that fight. I even did an Up-B on stage when I meant to do a SH-Fireball. XD
 

Inferno3044

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We Marios care about accuracy more than gaining an advantage.

Also, keep in mind you can wall-tech the cargo stage spike. DK can still attempt to gimp, but it'll at least give you a fighting chance to get you back on the stage.

I can see clearly why Matador would argue 45:55 DK, but I don't think it's enough since DK can be combo'd to oblivion and has so many unsafe moves.
I know and understand that, but I've looked on some boards and try and argue as much as possible on their side to get a bigger of an advantage/less of a disadvantage. A little like how the Marth discussion was except we came to an agreement to some extent (well really all we did was put in both sides opinions cuz we both were able to back it up) and were rational to some extent. If anybody remembers the Zelda discussion, that might be a better example. Good times the Marth discussion.

Edit: gj Hero on that battle. We still love you
 

Matador

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DK can turn the match really fast is all. We need to work hard for that one kill where DK only needs a lucky Fsmash or Giant Punch. If not one of those two, he definitely kills much earlier AND easier than we do. If he mixes up his recovery enough which is totally possible, he can prevent a cape gimp altogether.

Edit: I've actually played Darknid a few times on AiB ladder. He tried to CP Luigis and downB **** me. I ended up winning with the technique I explained. I think he's still on my feedback if you can find my profile there.
 

HeroMystic

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Yeah I was pushing that Zelda discussion pretty hard. XD For good reason though.

Eh, those vids are super-old. Friend in college has all the new vids but they aren't posted on the site.
 

Matador

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Same here. All of the vids I have up now make me sick to my stomach. My Mario was so sad back then.

I'll have to upload some new ones to show you guys the sexy. I have like 5 vids of DASS in action. I've confirmed that it works on Samus, Bowser, DK and Diddy so far.
 

hippiedude92

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IMO.. it's like 4/6.. maybe it's because i really suck against long range power hitting heavyweights iunno lol... either that or 45:55 DK tops. Maybe i'll push it to 5/5 as i get better on the match up, tho the LM part was really interesting. Good **** matador.

no one ever told me wtf is 9 swing giant punch lol.

How do you guys gimp the DK when hes in his upb? cuz every time i try to do it, i seem to get hit or the cape comes to slow, idk >_> or it's wifi altogether lol. Does the cape have to be hit on his head? or on his arms/hands? i cant hit it when its his arms and hands tho.

Getting wrecked by bum isn't cool though =[. What direction do you guys DI (mainly the marios that have exp and DKs here) after a dthrow?

I agree with Matador that he can make a comeback easily. We have to make sure we get the first hit, to start the combo, giving him at least 60% to ensure a safe lead, until we take his first stock, and not in total danger of our first stock, I can fully say it's safe (IMO from exp, if i lose my first stock, i usually work my *** off to get his stock down or end up losing the whole set.)
 

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This really is the best discussion we've ever had. ****'s getting done.

@hippie - You can hit him nearly anywhere with the cape, I'm sure you just don't have the timing down. Capestall and hope to get lucky, if you're having too much trouble.

DI after Dthrow? Either toward DK and mash 'A', or away and above, with a finger on 'L' .
 

hippiedude92

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This is the best discussion? lol? Well it is helping me slowly so thnx :]

I guess so, maybe it's because i'm not correctly using the spacing right. I always try to do it as close as possible, but yet it comes so slow, that i dont have enough time so i get hit so meh >_>

at low %s, if they dthrow you, it's like you can barely Di anywhere cause pretty much you'll get ftilted/dtilted/downb'd :[
 

:mad:

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Best discussion so far. ;)

I don't know why. D: Just keep on the platforms and don't get grabbed so early. 0-Death him 3 times before he touches you.
 
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