The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[Matador]

DK's neutral B, Giant Punch, has to swing 10 times for become fully charged. If you let it swing 9 times instead, then (not sure, which is why I didn't touch on it, but I think this is right) it'll kill earlier. The 9, however, doesn't have super armor. It's sorta like Wario's waft. Half charged kills better than fully charged.

Timing on caping DK's upB is much harder online than offline. It can be done on reaction, but that's impossible online because of the input lag and everything, so you have to predict when he's doing it instead. If you're just having trouble with it online, this is undoubtly the reason why. I have this same problem. Offline, you can see it coming a mile away.

DK used to give me the same problems too Hippiedude. In all honesty, cape is really my safety blanket vs big, slow characters. They all have long ranged, sluggish, dedicated moves that're outranged and outspeeded by cape. Once you cape them and have that opening, just let loose with the combos. Also don't forget to grab. They generally don't have fast "GTFO" moves, so they'll shield or airdodge when they feel threatened. Read and grab.

And lol @ Bum. Ur screwed dude. He's inhuman.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

just wondering, how are you guys calling this matchup neutral when you can't kill us, we outrange, outprioritize and overpower you both in the air and on the ground (the bairs do not trade if the dk spaces right). My experience against mario is limited to random MM's and one of my best friends maining him up until he quit 3 months ago, I do have decent practice in the matchup. Given, the local mario never placed well, but neither have the other marios in socal

Yes you can dair our shield, if we just hold out the shield and let you get close enough to dair that is a viable option, BUT dk's tilts will keep you out of range, so its a moot point.

on the ground you shouldn't be able to short hop anything on dk, forward tilt will beat it, if you try it and it works it's because he didn't expect you to try it. coming in from above dair will be beaten by utilt/usmash. don't approach dk. luckily for you, you can stay back and camp, which helps a lot considering your approaches will get stuffed before you get into range. Unfortunately you kinda have to wait on him to mess up.

If the DK is not familiar with mario, cape gimping will work, but after a few games we realize how to get around it and it'll only happen rarely (once a set), once we know to just not upb until we're grabbing the ledge (please cape us when we're facing you, I love getting that free back air) the stock differences begin to show. You do not ko until late, like 150ish if we don't avoid the fsmash, we're probably going to get a stock a decent bit past that if the dk has really good DI too. meanwhile at about 100% the dsmash will ko, at about 60-70 (depending on stage location) the punch will ko, usmash and fsmash are somewhere in between, you don't live long.

for gimps, we already mentioned the cape gimps on dk, but you haven't mentioned dk gimping mario. recovering high you're very likely to get baired, yes you can fireball but back air beats that out, so it won't do anything, if you go low you risk an upb ledge stall gimp, it won't happen all the time, but I usually get one gimp a game. If you DI up into the corner and don't get grabbed by the ledge, it won't happen as much, but you will get grabbed by the ledge eventually, so just keep that in mind.

other important stuff you completely ignored

Ledge pressure: DK is very good at it, you don't have many options against a well spaced fsmash at the ledge

Pressure in general: you have to stay away from dk, so you will wind up right by the ledge a lot, this is not a good position for you

Juggling: both characters can do it to each other for a lot of damage

DK's priority: his bair and his ftilt both beat your air game, and on the ground it isn't even close

dk's standing/pivot grab range is huge, the exact same size as ddd's

Stuff you guys exaggerate

The cape: it isn't that good, doing it to a dk in the air will give him a free bair, on the ground will give him a free utilt, getting predictable with it can and will get you *****.

combos: everyone combos dk, we really don't mind since we can do just as much damage right back to you with a simple bair/utilt string, the only matchups where the combos really hurt are fox, luigi and ddd (lolinfinite). Fox and Luigi because they can actually kill us at respectable % and ddd because his downthrow is ****ing ********



all that being said, if the dk does not know the matchup you will **** him due to easy cape gimps, but when dk does know the matchup it's 6-4 dk

also, vato, when are we going to MM? you never showed up to that 818 tournament.

 

[vato_break]

i 've 2 stocked m7h/jmex/dentarion best dks in socal LOL and im just a random xD dk isnt hard stop posting a large amount of bs get caped son

 

[Matador]

just wondering, how are you guys calling this matchup neutral when you can't kill us, we outrange, outprioritize and overpower you both in the air and on the ground (the bairs do not trade if the dk spaces right). My experience against mario is limited to random MM's and one of my best friends maining him up until he quit 3 months ago, I do have decent practice in the matchup. Given, the local mario never placed well, but neither have the other marios in socal

Yes you can dair our shield, if we just hold out the shield and let you get close enough to dair that is a viable option, BUT dk's tilts will keep you out of range, so its a moot point.

on the ground you shouldn't be able to short hop anything on dk, forward tilt will beat it, if you try it and it works it's because he didn't expect you to try it. coming in from above dair will be beaten by utilt/usmash. don't approach dk. luckily for you, you can stay back and camp, which helps a lot considering your approaches will get stuffed before you get into range. Unfortunately you kinda have to wait on him to mess up.

If the DK is not familiar with mario, cape gimping will work, but after a few games we realize how to get around it and it'll only happen rarely (once a set), once we know to just not upb until we're grabbing the ledge (please cape us when we're facing you, I love getting that free back air) the stock differences begin to show. You do not ko until late, like 150ish if we don't avoid the fsmash, we're probably going to get a stock a decent bit past that if the dk has really good DI too. meanwhile at about 100% the dsmash will ko, at about 60-70 (depending on stage location) the punch will ko, usmash and fsmash are somewhere in between, you don't live long.

for gimps, we already mentioned the cape gimps on dk, but you haven't mentioned dk gimping mario. recovering high you're very likely to get baired, yes you can fireball but back air beats that out, so it won't do anything, if you go low you risk an upb ledge stall gimp, it won't happen all the time, but I usually get one gimp a game. If you DI up into the corner and don't get grabbed by the ledge, it won't happen as much, but you will get grabbed by the ledge eventually, so just keep that in mind.

other important stuff you completely ignored

Ledge pressure: DK is very good at it, you don't have many options against a well spaced fsmash at the ledge

Pressure in general: you have to stay away from dk, so you will wind up right by the ledge a lot, this is not a good position for you

Juggling: both characters can do it to each other for a lot of damage

DK's priority: his bair and his ftilt both beat your air game, and on the ground it isn't even close

dk's standing/pivot grab range is huge, the exact same size as ddd's

Stuff you guys exaggerate

The cape: it isn't that good, doing it to a dk in the air will give him a free bair, on the ground will give him a free utilt, getting predictable with it can and will get you *****.

combos: everyone combos dk, we really don't mind since we can do just as much damage right back to you with a simple bair/utilt string, the only matchups where the combos really hurt are fox, luigi and ddd (lolinfinite). Fox and Luigi because they can actually kill us at respectable % and ddd because his downthrow is ****ing ********



all that being said, if the dk does not know the matchup you will **** him due to easy cape gimps, but when dk does know the matchup it's 6-4 dk

also, vato, when are we going to MM? you never showed up to that 818 tournament.

lol, I was waiting for you to show up. I knew you wouldn't settle for even. Alright, let's get started.

True, DK has a clear range and power advantage, but Mario has speed, projectiles, and a better offstage game. Priority? No, there's no clear winner here since Mario's Usmash, cape and Fsmash are all disjointed. They should be able to contend with whatever disjointed attacks DK has (if any) aside from his down B.

The main problem with your standpoint is that you assume that Mario won't be able to get in. While it won't be necessarily easy to get in, it's definitely not difficult, especially since the only real defense you have against fireballs is powershielding. While you stop to powershield (IF you powershield), you cannot tilt. That's where SHDair on shield comes into play with the rest of Mario's close range arsenal. At this point, DK's options are more limited to getting Mario away from his safety zone before he can start up a combo. DK's at his best point vs Mario pressuring him at arms length WITHOUT letting Mario get inside.

I didn't put much emphasis on the gimping because Mario won't gimp a good DK every time he's offstage. He can vary his recovery enough to the point where Mario will have to read his intentions rather than pressure him. It does NOT cease to be a threat because you can "just not upB until you're grabbing the ledge". The strength in Mario's offstage game is that he can force you to make punishable moves. Unless you're knocked up and away, you will be in danger of cape gimp simply because we already know what direction you're going to go, and all we have to do to stop it is cape in its path. Your only options are to go up or down; start late or start early. It just happens to be enough variety for DK to have a chance offstage.

You misunderstand how you'd use cape. You don't cape while DK is jumping toward you because you WILL, in fact, eat a Bair. Same with if he's grounded. You'd cape when DK is going to shield, because cape is safe on shield and shieldpokes so it can force a whiffed shieldgrab. You'd do it AFTER a Bair or Ftilt and turn DK around to punish. It's more of a defensive tool than anything. If you're feeling gutsy, you can try it offensively, but it's never a sure thing. And like everything else in this game, if you get predictable, you get *****.

And it's not hard at all to land an Fsmash on DK. He doesn't have a single move that isn't beaten by Fsmash, and only has a handful that outrange it. He's also a huge target with alot of ending lag on whiffed attacks. Fsmash kills DK at around 120% fresh and lower from the ledge. If you add this to the fact that it's easier to rack up damage on DK than nearly any other character in the game for Mario once inside, it doesn't seem at all outrageous.

6:4 is too much. Even or slight adv DK, but it's not 6:4. That's just incorrect. There's not a Mario in here than has much trouble with DK.

 

[HeroMystic]

lol, I was waiting for you to show up. I knew you wouldn't settle for even.

So was I, but looks like you got everything down pat.

Feels like he ignored the last three pages though.

 

[Matador]

So was I, but looks like you got everything down pat.

Feels like he ignored the last three pages though.

At least he's arguing the other side. There wasn't too much of that really. He's rather belligerent too, like he doesn't want back and forth debate but fire with fire, invective after harsh invective-style arguing.

I'd rather say my piece and have cookies afterwards.

 

[Ismael]

Out of all the DKs I fought, there's really one thing to keep in mind. AVOID THE SMASHES! (and the surprise side-b headbutt which can lead into said smashes).

Bairs, tilts and all that other jazz when it comes to DK are basically things to keep an eye out for, but are simply small things to get accustomed to.

 

[Matador]

Out of all the DKs I fought, there's really one thing to keep in mind. AVOID THE SMASHES! (and the surprise side-b headbutt which can lead into said smashes).

Bairs, tilts and all that other jazz when it comes to DK are basically things to keep an eye out for, but are simply small things to get accustomed to.

Honestly....this really sums up the entire match. The game-breakers like sideB, Giant Punch, and his smashes are what you really need to look out for. His everything else is what you're fighting and what you must deal with to get inside.

 

[:mad:]

I really feel like his tilts are the game changers, here. I can't see you getting hit very often with any smashes other than Dsmash.

 

[HeroMystic]

His tilts are more or less his spacing moves, especially D-tilt. However none of them can stop a fireball approach without avoiding the fireball first.

 

[:mad:]

His tilts prevent Mario from getting inside, so that's mainly why I'm saying so. Forcing an approach will mainly result in the DK trying to Bair you, so you have far more options than Donkey Kong to begin with.

 

[Ismael]

I really feel like his tilts are the game changers, here. I can't see you getting hit very often with any smashes other than Dsmash.

His other smashes, like his Fsmash, come out alot faster than you think, especially when used intelligently with mindgames and set ups. Be wary.

 

[:mad:]

The only way I can see you being hit by an Fsmash is if you try a Fair on stage.

 

[Ismael]

lol, fight some DKs! XD

 

[A2ZOMG]

just wondering, how are you guys calling this matchup neutral when you can't kill us, we outrange, outprioritize and overpower you both in the air and on the ground (the bairs do not trade if the dk spaces right). My experience against mario is limited to random MM's and one of my best friends maining him up until he quit 3 months ago, I do have decent practice in the matchup. Given, the local mario never placed well, but neither have the other marios in socal

Most of DK's advantages don't matter as much in this matchup since Mario both can outcamp him and punish him severely on well timed dodges/blocks. Mario can get off about 60% easily on a combo vs DK, and KOs at around 120% with F-smash, while it takes DK til about 110% to kill with D-smash or something.

on the ground you shouldn't be able to short hop anything on dk, forward tilt will beat it, if you try it and it works it's because he didn't expect you to try it. coming in from above dair will be beaten by utilt/usmash. don't approach dk. luckily for you, you can stay back and camp, which helps a lot considering your approaches will get stuffed before you get into range. Unfortunately you kinda have to wait on him to mess up.

Mario's F-smash has about the same range as DK's forward tilt, so if you whiff that, you can expect to be punished for that too. To be honest, Mario actually has one of the longest ranged F-smashes in Brawl. When you factor in the leanback and stutter stepping of course, as he CLEARLY outranges a F-smash like Marth's or DK's easily.

for gimps, we already mentioned the cape gimps on dk, but you haven't mentioned dk gimping mario. recovering high you're very likely to get baired, yes you can fireball but back air beats that out, so it won't do anything, if you go low you risk an upb ledge stall gimp, it won't happen all the time, but I usually get one gimp a game. If you DI up into the corner and don't get grabbed by the ledge, it won't happen as much, but you will get grabbed by the ledge eventually, so just keep that in mind.

If I fireball, then I know when you're going to B-air, and I can capestall or dodge appropriately.

Usually if the Mario knows how to DI, the most damage DK is going to be doing to Mario offstage should be a hit when Mario makes it back on stage.

Ledge pressure: DK is very good at it, you don't have many options against a well spaced fsmash at the ledge

edgecamp fireball and stuff. Mario can be incredibly safe at the edge and DK really can't stop him from Up-B stalling either.

Pressure in general: you have to stay away from dk, so you will wind up right by the ledge a lot, this is not a good position for you

F-smash vs F-tilt and possibly out of shield against B-air. D-air vs his shield. Mario has the options to make it in and get in a good hit.

DK's priority: his bair and his ftilt both beat your air game, and on the ground it isn't even close

Mario's F-smash range > those.

dk's standing/pivot grab range is huge, the exact same size as ddd's

Like it matters anyway since you're not really CGing or killing that much from a throw...

combos: everyone combos dk, we really don't mind since we can do just as much damage right back to you with a simple bair/utilt string, the only matchups where the combos really hurt are fox, luigi and ddd (lolinfinite). Fox and Luigi because they can actually kill us at respectable % and ddd because his downthrow is ****ing ********

Mario's F-smash is pretty easy to land due to its range and kills at about 100% on most characters.

all that being said, if the dk does not know the matchup you will **** him due to easy cape gimps, but when dk does know the matchup it's 6-4 dk

It's neutral...although I probably will give DK the nod overall slightly due to stage counterpicks. The advantage depends on stages really...stages where Mario has more room to camp are better for Mario, while stages that help recovery are better for DK.

 

[phi1ny3]

Can I just say that the lucario matchup pick on your thread = LOLWUT? ಠ_ಠ

 

[smashkng]

Don't underestimate DK's speed stats , he's far faster than he looks. DK beats Mario in mobility in both air and ground. Don't say he's that slow, Ike and Ganondorf are far slower. But what's true is that Mario has a projectile while DK has no projectile. Despite DK's acceptable speed stats is very strong and extremely heavy.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

We're not saying DK is slow, we're saying his attacks are slower.

Our Uair is like, 4 frames. (I think?)

We beat him in the air.

 

[Darknid]

Yeah, don't go BF. Also, as Mario I'd be more afraid of japes than Luigi's, but if one of those aren't legal he can also go brinstar, delfino or distant planet. You just generally will not win on DK's CP.

As for your CP, hard to tell you could go Frigate for the gimps but keep in mind that if the stage changes, he loves that area and the platforms on the sides can make him harder to gimp. Might want to choose a neutral. I know some Marios like halberd but that's not a good choice either, you'll just die earlier. DK is pretty adaptable, and the only stages he doesn't like are frigate, and maybe PS1. It's not that he doesn't like that stage, he just probably likes it the least.

 

[Darknid]

We're not saying DK is slow, we're saying his attacks are slower.

Our Uair is like, 4 frames. (I think?)

We beat him in the air.

That doesn't mean you beat him in the air, if he spaces bairs you will never beat him. You beat him in the air when he's forced to face you in the air or when you're below him, but above and behind him, you don't win.

 

[bobson]

I like taking DK to Final Destination. Anywhere with platforms just makes it worse.

 

[Matador]

Don't underestimate DK's speed stats , he's far faster than he looks. DK beats Mario in mobility in both air and ground. Don't say he's that slow, Ike and Ganondorf are far slower. But what's true is that Mario has a projectile while DK has no projectile. Despite DK's acceptable speed stats is very strong and extremely heavy.

He's VERY slow compared to Mario. It's not even a question. There are only a handful of characters even close to Mario in attack speed, and amongst those are people like Luigi and MK.

I know he's not exactly crawling, but Mario has a definite speed advantage. I don't know where you got your mobility data, but it's obviously flawed. Unless of course, you're talking about running speed and aerial movement speed in which case I'll have to retort with "wtfwhocares?"

Yeah, don't go BF. Also, as Mario I'd be more afraid of japes than Luigi's, but if one of those aren't legal he can also go brinstar, delfino or distant planet. You just generally will not win on DK's CP.

Japes is undoubtedly the first thing you ban vs DK. This goes without saying. BF also isn't too bad, it just helps him too. It's the same situation with Marth.

As for your CP, hard to tell you could go Frigate for the gimps but keep in mind that if the stage changes, he loves that area and the platforms on the sides can make him harder to gimp. Might want to choose a neutral. I know some Marios like halberd but that's not a good choice either, you'll just die earlier. DK is pretty adaptable, and the only stages he doesn't like are frigate, and maybe PS1. It's not that he doesn't like that stage, he just probably likes it the least.

We basically need room to work, onstage and offstage. There are a few stages that give us that. I don't see us getting some major advantage on any counterpick, but I don't see us doing terrible on any of DK's aside from japes.

Edit:

I like taking DK to Final Destination. Anywhere with platforms just makes it worse.

This is likely the best choice. Once you can get inside DK's range, platforms are great. Otherwise they generally work against you.

 

[HeroMystic]

That doesn't mean you beat him in the air, if he spaces bairs you will never beat him. You beat him in the air when he's forced to face you in the air or when you're below him, but above and behind him, you don't win.

Mario's and DK's B-air trade hits.

Agreed with above however.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Fireball camping and shieldgrabs. Cape-gimps.

I don't find this matchup too hard. The only things you gotta watch out for are Bairs and Smashes (and Giant Punch).

 

[Judge Judy]

Personally, I find Dair to work very well on DK. Other than that, pretty much everything else has been said.

 

[smashkng]

He's VERY slow compared to Mario. It's not even a question. There are only a handful of characters even close to Mario in attack speed, and amongst those are people like Luigi and MK.

I know he's not exactly crawling, but Mario has a definite speed advantage. I don't know where you got your mobility data, but it's obviously flawed. Unless of course, you're talking about running speed and aerial movement speed in which case I'll have to retort with "wtfwhocares?"

Japes is undoubtedly the first thing you ban vs DK. This goes without saying. BF also isn't too bad, it just helps him too. It's the same situation with Marth.


We basically need room to work, onstage and offstage. There are a few stages that give us that. I don't see us getting some major advantage on any counterpick, but I don't see us doing terrible on any of DK's aside from japes.

Edit:This is likely the best choice. Once you can get inside DK's range, platforms are great. Otherwise they generally work against you.

DK is the 12th fastest runner, Mario the 16th, DK is the 12th fastest walker, Mario the 17th fastest walker. In air DK has the 7th fastest air speed, Mario the 21st fastest air speed. About jump height I haven't found anything but DK's jump height is high. Mario's movement stats are all decent but DK's movement stats are insane for a heavyweight.

About fast attacks, DK fast attacks are tilts, jab down smash (and has high KO potential), up smash (which is dangerous for Mario in Battlefield as it's a very good move while running), fully Giant Punch (includes Super Armor and is very powerful), back air and up air. All this except the up air also has long range.

NEVER Grab release DK, he suffer less lag than anyone else and you'll give him a chance to attack you., instead just throw him before he escapes.

In Mario's side DK is a large target and spikes are devastating for DK, but non-spikes he can easily survive.

But a good DI DK is nearly impossible to KO, he weights 5 tons and Mario lacks very powerful
moves while DK has 3 spikes, early KO moves and a cargo stage spike. This forces Mario spikes for early kills on DK.

 

[Kanzaki]

A good Mario will most likely **** a good DK.

A bad Mario will most likely have a hard time against a bad DK.

 

[Matador]

DK is the 12th fastest runner, Mario the 16th, DK is the 12th fastest walker, Mario the 17th fastest walker. In air DK has the 7th fastest air speed, Mario the 21st fastest air speed. About jump height I haven't found anything but DK's jump height is high. Mario's movement stats are all decent but DK's movement stats are insane for a heavyweight.

And yet...Mario still remains the faster of the two. That says something about your data. It may not be wrong, but is it relevant? No...no it's not. All this means is that if Mario and DK were in a triathlon composed of sprinting, freefalling and powerwalking...zomgDKwins.

About fast attacks, DK fast attacks are tilts, jab down smash (and has high KO potential), up smash (which is dangerous for Mario in Battlefield as it's a very good move while running), fully Giant Punch (includes Super Armor and is very powerful), back air and up air. All this except the up air also has long range.

DK has a few quick attacks that can compete with Mario's attack speed. So does Ike. So does Bowser. So does Ganon. This means little if he doesn't have an attack like Zelda's Dsmash to get Mario out quickly BEFORE we start our combos once we get inside your range. Again, he's not CRAWLING, but Mario has much faster than DK; so much faster that it's a disadvantage for him.

In Mario's side DK is a large target and spikes are devastating for DK, but non-spikes he can easily survive.

But a good DI DK is nearly impossible to KO, he weights 5 tons and Mario lacks very powerful
moves while DK has 3 spikes, early KO moves and a cargo stage spike. This forces Mario spikes for early kills on DK.

DK is heavy. DK is powerful. DK can spike. It's been done to death, we're all fully aware of DK's obvious positive traits.

You seem to have overlooked the fact that Mario's Fsmash will beat pretty much every move that DK has AND kills him at 120% WITH good DI. That, and it outranges alot of his attacks too. From the ledge, where it's generally done, Fsmash kills even earlier. Also keep in mind that we can cape your upB when you're offstage for a gimp. A spike is nice, but we don't NEED to spike to kill. Mario has much more kill power than you give him credit for.

Edit @ Kanzaki: I'm still surprised Bo hasn't put in his 2 cents.

 

[smashkng]

I think it's a 50/50 rather than Mario ******: you have faster attack speed (though DK isn't so slow) and you can cape DK's recovery but DK outranges you, has high capability to early KO by more ways (though non of them is as easy as cape) and you are forced to send him off stage to early kills.

 

[BoRn]

I never had too many problems in this match-up. The only really great Diddy I've gotten to play with was Nynja from Kansas in pools at CoT4. I beat him 2-1. Stages like Battlefield worked really well for me and if you don't use it already you should all learn how to RJCT with his banana's. It's epic for kiting and really catches players offguard. I did this a lot to Nynja and was able to follow up extremely well after it.

lmao good games man. You are the best mario ive played. brinstar was a horrible choice of a cp on my part. I thought i would take mario there as well as wario but nope i got *****. Keep it up man.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think it's a 50/50 rather than Mario ******

We HAVE been saying that it's 50:50.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

The match is 50:50...




Just sayin'

 

[Jmex]

dk will **** you on luigi's.

LMAO

Id say this is a 50:50 match up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The match is 50:50...




Just sayin'

...he's spoken! O_O

Monk, you make "Just sayin' " the most epic thing ever. XD

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

...he's spoken! O_O

Monk, you make "Just sayin' " the most epic thing ever. XD

For some reason...I couldn't stop laughing at this....


Just sayin'

 

[Inferno3044]

I love how Monk comes in and just ends the discussion. 50:50 it is.

 

[:mad:]

Monk gave the best advice, just say stuff.
50:50 it is!

I think we should start Wario next.
MC wanted to know our opinion on the matchup. There's gonna be a lot to quote.

 

[bobson]

Can you cape Wario while he's on the bike?

 

[Mario_ 101]

^yes. 10 yesses

 

[:mad:]

If he's jumping off? Or while in mid-air?