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The "Coaching" Debate.

Nihonjin

Striving 4 Perfection
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 1, 2005
Messages
2,867
Location
Amsterdam, Holland
^Yeah, I'm kinda done now though.

It's like I'm debating Zombies, no matter how many times I shoot em down, they just ignore the fist size hole(s) in their chests (read: arguments) and keep on going.

It's endless.
 

CloneHat

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,131
Location
Montreal, Quebec
^Yeah, I'm kinda done now though.

It's like I'm debating Zombies, no matter how many times I shoot em down, they just ignore the fist size hole(s) in their chests (read: arguments) and keep on going.

It's endless.
But you haven't proven any of your points! I'll sum up the two sides:

PRO BAN: Nothing in the last 3 posts

ANTI BAN: Can't enforce it, both players have a coach, it's not like coaching helps anyway

Take that!

But seriously, we should stop arguing and try to have this rule start getting put in at tournaments.
 

ranmaru

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
13,296
Switch FC
SW-0654 7794 0698
I mean... If you are allowed to have a coach, why can't you just have a teammate in the middle of the match with you?

But there should be restrictions on this... like your teammate has to be playing the same character as you... so you can watch what he does correctly vs your opponent, and then you can do it too.

+1 for allowing teammates in the singles bracket. It's not my fault that you don't have any super pro friends to team with you.

Edit: I forgot there are some incredibly dense individuals in this thread. Just for good measure... THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS POST. OBVIOUSLY.
OOH LETS DO THIS POUND 5 LOL

nah jk

THEIR

You ****ing idiot.
Duh didn't you know they're is a term called "there hands" it's a wonderful place to be.

@Seikend

i understand that you should attempt to stop anything thats wrong, but attempting to stop it has its downsides... as i've seen from many people in the thread, people may not tolerate inconvenient rules making going to tournaments less of a fun experience

also,the argument that tournaments are a place to learn kinda goes with the inconvenience and less enjoyable game thing, for example, personally, a tournament is the only place i can go to get any better, mostly because i live in a wasteland where i play with only two other melee players in order to improve. For me, making jumps regarding how good i am at adapting to new players can only be developed at a tournament... Do we really need the game of melee to become that much more esoteric, the community is small enough as it is.

i agree that it is clearly unfair, and i kind of agree with you, but i felt i needed to bring up those arguments

EDIT: as for the national/regional/local thing, the fact that nobody cares about the rules at a local tournament is more of a reason to allow people to view a bigger tournament as a practice round. Practicing proper gameplay would have no impact at a local tournament according to that logic.

And there is no answer on the banning side to the fact that lack of coaching makes it harder for new players to be introduced, which very well could lead to a more esoteric game of melee... and isnt that in all of our best interests?

Hmmm, simple. Just have that person ask for advice AFTER that match. PROBLEM SOLVED WHOOO.

Jeez they don't need coaching that badly during the damn match.

I mean, it's the same way its done at school. You are GIVEN MATERIAL. You have a test, what do you do? You STUDY. But, at no point can you refer to the material DURING A TEST unless you are doing an open book test. (but then you would take TOO much time and won't be able to find everything in one sitting)
It is recommended you read guides and such, or keep notes and refer to them in a spatial manner, that way you can keep them in memory longer than you would if you just crammed it

So, if people REALLY want coaching.. have a "Open Book Match". Yeah, I said it. Make it ok to have a coach, but it has to be a GUARUNTEED SUPER HARD CORE MATCH. No easy multiple choice matches. Rules SHOULD be implemented along this, maybe.

You can learn in SOOOO many different ways. There isn't any excuse for you to say "but I never knew that".

Go on youtube. Watch videos! That, is the BEST way to learn how good players (that main your main) handle certain situations.

We, as do monkeys, learn the same way when we experience things ourselves. For example, if you watch a vid of M2k vs Mango, you are learning AS IF IT WAS YOU EXPERIENCING THAT MATCH.



Watch videos. Read the guides. Experiment, condition, apply, become the pokemon master.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
well, I wouldn't mind coaching being banned if they banned trash talk and yelling. But I've been called out for coaching twice. once where it was intended, and once where it was not. Are you going to ban negative statements about a player's play? (it wasn't even really trash talk...just kind of my typical thoughtless comment based on disgust at bad edgeguarding..i really can't stand watching marth's edgeguard badly..even when it's me)

Honestly I'd prefer a no noise during matches rule if anything. as i think that influences matches far more than coaching....if only i were in europe:\

I think i've dropped maybe 4 major matches because of noise and yelling in my ear..and one because of trash talking. I think it's ridiculous to talk about enforcing no coaching rules when the smash community doesn't even bother to create an environment in which the crowd doesn't influence the matches.. also i don't think coaching can take place fast enough to keep up with vs spacie matchups..but i could see it being game-breaking in floaty-floaty or jiggs - y. link

I've seen people coach my opponent before, but i can't even think of a match in which it mattered. And honestly there was lots of random "coaching" from the crowd.

anyway, i typically only coach between matches, and will probably keep doing so unless it's banned. I don't usually voluntarily limit myself when there is nothing in place to limit my opponents.


especially seeing as about half the people i see in finals get one or two sentences of advice in between matches in finals. But I think mahone doesn't usually care about tips, and the only other person i have to coach is redd. but I don't think he would actually do anything that cramps into his aggressive non-stop attacking playstyle, so it's hard to advise him.
 

Warhawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
1,086
Location
Mt. Pleasant/Highland, MI
well, I wouldn't mind coaching being banned if they banned trash talk and yelling. But I've been called out for coaching twice. once where it was intended, and once where it was not. Are you going to ban negative statements about a player's play? (it wasn't even really trash talk...just kind of my typical thoughtless comment based on disgust at bad edgeguarding..i really can't stand watching marth's edgeguard badly..even when it's me)

Honestly I'd prefer a no noise during matches rule if anything. as i think that influences matches far more than coaching....if only i were in europe:\
They could just ban all noise during matches and let the crowd trash talk, coach, run wild or whatever between the matches of a set. I think that would kind of work. Maybe let them applaud/cheer/have player chants during sets and that's it if that, but then if people are dumb and abuse that ability to make it difficult to enforce no coaching and no trashtalking rules then they can ban everything in between matches.
 

ZelDan

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
3,303
Location
New Hampshire
I'd prefer it if singles remained that, one single person versus another person; a 1 vs. 1

A person should go into a tournament with only their own knowledge, not another player's for them to back up on. Coaching should only happen in doubles.
 

Armada

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
1,366
When I saw this thread being up for discussion again I was thinking "Amsah were you at" seems like he already is here ;)
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
I really don't see the argument of "If you're going to ban coaching, you might as well ban crowd hype/trash talk!" The two concepts are COMPLETELY different. Telling someone to calm down, etc. is not even close to Seibrik recommending Hbox to use Light Shield against Armada, something that completely changed the set from a potential 3-0 to a two-set 5-5.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,974
The argument is more toward coming up with an adequate way to ban coaching. If you say "coaching is banned," is the crowd shouting "Light Shield against Armada!" considered a violation? Of course, it's the exact same problem the anti-coaching crowd has, but the only difference is who is causing it.

It's not that people are claiming coaching is the same as shouting "don't lose any more!" I hope (though I am doubtful) that people are not that stupid. It's about creating a consistent ruleset.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,974
There are obvious problems that arise in that scenario, then. Some people think a simple "no-coaching" rule would not suffice if people wanted to coach from the crowd.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
2,599
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Personally, I think coaching might as well eb like a gentleman's rule. IF both people want coaching obviously no one should step in and say no, at the same time I don't want two people sitting nxt to me if the coach is actually analytical and able to help an aggressive person stay back and notice my flaws when I've got no one and it's quite obvious that the coach is doing the thinking.

..I dunno, I don't mind it but there are times when it could ruin a game, I feel like it should be up to the opponent if someone can use a coach.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
I lose a lot less from people saying stuff like "he techs towards the edge every time" than people screaming over a stomp->knee. The X-Box Live environment is what kills tourneys for me.
 
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