The "Coaching" Debate.

[hungrybox]

Have at it, Gentlemen.

Should Coaching be allowed during tournament matches?

 

[Pi]

Yes.

The smash environment is not such that enforcing an anti-coaching rule would be within reason. With all the cheering onlookers, supportive crew mates, trash talking scrubs, and all the 'hype' we're use to, it would be next to impossible to limit what people say. What's the difference between calling out 'he's got a stitch' and saying 'stop jumping after ____'. There is no clear line between what would be considered 'coaching' and what would be considered standard screams of hype.

This isn't to say that even if the environment did permit such a rule to exist that I would be in favor of it. I believe coaching is the fastest way to advance not only the individual as a player, but the communities metagame as a whole. If you're smart, which you'd have to be at a high level of play, you aren't going to receive coaching and then forget it, it's going to stick with you and more likely than not return to you when the situation occurs again with or without a coach to remind you of it.

And seeing as how no anti coaching rules are in place, there is nothing stopping any one from telling their buddy hey come coach me. I feel it's another case of something new or different seeping into our aging community that seems to have grown so ridged that any new proposal with suspected impacts on the outcome of a match is immediately met with opposition.

I'd be more than happy to embrace coaching as an important aspect of tourney play. I'd love to see knowledge of high level play more openly spread throughout the community.

 

[DarrellD]

Is coaching that much different than trash talking?

Because if we ban one, might as well ban the other.

 

[Kaffei]

Yeah .

 

[DoH]

I feel like coaching should be allowed between matches, but not midmatch. It's 1 vs 1, not me vs you and your posse.

 

[D. Disciple]

^^^ completely agree. The only time when there should be coaching is during teams and crews with your partner/s and only in between matches in 1v1's.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I like that people at EVO are separated from the crowd by the stage.

 

[Brookman]

I say everyone pretends to be mute and we only golf clap when people win/execute awesomeness.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That may be a reality for some sets if Jigglypuff ditto finals persist.

 

[Brookman]

What the **** is anyone gonna do about the puffs these dies.


why, in my day, kdj would just come in and up throw up air you several times.

 

[Pi]

Let's just coach everyone to victory against jiggs

 

[Druggedfox]

Fox's bair is better than jiggs'.

@KK

Maybe the community can move toward making it a standard to separate the players from the crowd in that fashion?

 

[Zodiac]

No, not during matches, inbetween matches during the same set, yes. Its that simple.

 

[X1-12]

This again...


Amsah where you at?

 

[PB&J]

Is coaching that much different than trash talking?

Because if we ban one, might as well ban the other.

this times a billion..


you cant ban a crowd..

doesnt even coaches in other sports tell there players during plays what do do

smashers need to stop whining all the time, sorry if you lost from someone coaching somebody..get over it..people lose from crowds screaming in there ear all the time too

huh..ill quit this community if they come up with dumb rules that enforce coaching..so dumb


edit: read the other thread- what wobbles said about " what if the other player had mango as their coach"

not saying mango isnt a good coach or anything,but just because your the best,doesnt mean you will be the best coach/explain everything clear. im sure m2k would be a horrible coach or a few other great players..so that mango argument is humdrum . Hope that was clear..ill explain more after you respond

 

[Pengie]

I like that people at EVO are separated from the crowd by the stage.

This seems to be the best idea; it eliminates the blatant in-ear coaching while still retaining the hype that makes grand finals so exciting.

 

[CloneHat]

I like that people at EVO are separated from the crowd by the stage.

I was just going to say this.

 

[mers]

Just allow it. It's another layer of the game.

 

[Pengie]

How is it another layer of the game? It's an outside influence that can skew the match in favor of one player.

 

[Brookman]

you better get yourself a good coach then.


also, flame mammoth owns you.

 

[CloneHat]

For maximum concentration, there shouldn't be crowds in the first place, they should be separated from the players.

Since nobody is likely to do this, we must then ensure as little interference as possible from the crowd.

 

[Crazy Cloud]

I think coaching during matches is really gay, but I approve of it.

People who are coaching while commentating on the other hand, get the **** out of here with that.

 

[Frames]

fighters get yelled at by their coaches all the time...you watch ufc or boxing or anything the coaches talk in between rounds but what are they doing while they fight...yup you guessed it they're yelling at their fighters..."hit em with the left" "go for the takedown" etc etc

when brock lesnar got his *** wooped during the 1st round last fight was it because his coach was yelling at him during the fight? or because hes a ***** and cant take a punch...in the end player skill and ability is going to be a much greater influence on the fight than any external influence will ever be

yea different setting but still people are gonna yell no matter what

 

[Pengie]

you better get yourself a good coach then.

The point is that there shouldn't be a coach in the first place; it's 1v1 not 1.5v1 or whatever the hell a coach would be equivalent to.

also, flame mammoth owns you.

fighters get yelled at by their coaches all the time...you watch ufc or boxing or anything the coaches talk in between rounds but what are they doing while they fight...yup you guessed it they're yelling at their fighters..."hit em with the left" "go for the takedown" etc etc

yea different setting but still...coaches are just smart audience members

To me thats different from someone being in your ear telling you what to do. The coaches are there yelling things out in the same way that the crowd is there yelling things out. I think coaching is more comparable to someone telling you where to move your pieces in chess, something that is very much frowned upon in most circumstances.

 

[Nihonjin]

This again...


Amsah where you at?

Oh God not this again.

Yes.

The smash environment is not such that enforcing an anti-coaching rule would be within reason. With all the cheering onlookers, supportive crew mates, trash talking scrubs, and all the 'hype' we're use to, it would be next to impossible to limit what people say. What's the difference between calling out 'he's got a stitch' and saying 'stop jumping after ____'. There is no clear line between what would be considered 'coaching' and what would be considered standard screams of hype.

Irrelevant argument.

I believe coaching is the fastest way to advance not only the individual as a player, but the communities metagame as a whole. If you're smart, which you'd have to be at a high level of play, you aren't going to receive coaching and then forget it, it's going to stick with you and more likely than not return to you when the situation occurs again with or without a coach to remind you of it.

This is the fundamental problem of your argument. You're working on the assumption that tournaments are training grounds, they're not.

And seeing as how no anti coaching rules are in place, there is nothing stopping any one from telling their buddy hey come coach me.

That's the whole point of this debate obviously../facepalm

I feel it's another case of something new or different seeping into our aging community that seems to have grown so ridged that any new proposal with suspected impacts on the outcome of a match is immediately met with opposition.

Everyone opposing it is wrong.

I'd be more than happy to embrace coaching as an important aspect of tourney play. I'd love to see knowledge of high level play more openly spread throughout the community.

What if my coach is Mango and the only coach available to you is your cousin who's a (bad) Brawl player that doesn't know a thing about Melee? Because that's the heart of my argument, it's not about whether it helps improve people, of course it does.

The question is, is it fair during tournaments?

I think the answer is an overwhelming no.



Besides, nobody's stopping people from coaching eachother during friendlies and giving advice outside of tournaments. So nobody's trying to stop "the knowledge of high level play" from spreading.

It's just that if I challenge someone to a money match (which is what a tournament is, an elaborate money match), I'm challanging you. Not you and all of your friends.

 

[Pi]

Nonsense argument.

Not really, both in the brawl and melee community I've seen this argument used as an excuse to not instate a rule.

This is the fundamental problem of your argument. You're working on the assumption that tournaments are training grounds, they're not.

It depends on how you look at them, are any of our tournaments, or players, sponsored? Are contracts signed between the players and the TO's? Or are these community hosted and run events with no real rules to dictate what is 'fair' and what is not other than stage and item restrictions.

That's the whole point of this debate obviously../facepalm

What I was saying is since there is no current rules in place, so to quote some tired out arrogant way of copping out of a debate 'the burden of proof lies on you'.
As it stands coaching is entirely acceptable in any setting.

Everyone opposing it is wrong.

Notice how I started the sentence with 'I feel'. I was not stating a fact, merely an observation. The smash community as a whole seems to oppose any change to the 'tried and true' methods of playing the game. No items, Fox only, Final destination would make us happy.

What if my coach is Mango and the only coach available to you is your cousin who's a (bad) Brawl player that doesn't know a thing about Melee? Because that's the heart of my argument, it's not about whether it helps improve people, of course it does.

How is having a bad coach different in melee than in any other sport? If you're learning from the wrong people, it's going to weigh heavily on your game. Whether they're talking in your ear while you're playing a bracket match or telling you the best way to get back onto the stage is to press R on the ledge during a friendly. The people you have available to you as training partners/coaches is going to affect how good of a player you are regardless of if they are available at the tournament or not.

Besides, nobody's stopping people from coaching eachother during friendlies and giving advice outside of tournaments. So nobody's trying to stop "the knowledge of high level play" from spreading.

What if ones friendly playstyle differs from his tournament playstyle? It's much easier to see and take advice when it's happening rather than after the fact between a match. I've seen my friends get nervous and make stupid mistakes, and I've told them during the set to calm down and seen them heed it. But I've also waited in between the set to tell them and have it take no effect. If you say this is part of becoming a better player, then how do I coach that? 'Hey stop losing focus in tourney matches'.

And to go back to what I said earlier, what dictates coaching? What if as a coach I've worked with my player before and seen him forget to read techs, or forget to read jumps and during a match I say
'Start reading those tech's' or
'Watch out for his 2nd jumps'. Is that too coachy? What if I get more specific and say
'punish those 2nd jumps out of combo's' or more specifically
'he's jumping out of your throws, wait for it'.
What about 'shield more' or
'you don't have to approach' or
'make him approach'
'grab the ledge'.
Please explain to me how you're going to limit what people say.
'No one is able to shout/scream/whisper/utter/purvey/act out/do/say/or think anything that could or would affect the outcome of a singles bracket match under punishment of disqualification from the tournament.'

We are an underground gaming community, part of that is crowd interaction, if you're not use to it, get use to it.

 

[Ballistics]

I REALLY like the analogy of tennis and melee, when the tennis match starts, the entire audience has to go silent, if you don't they will kick you out. The players need alot of concentration. I have always grimaced when people are yelling and heckling mid match, it forces the players to think about two dimensions at once. I remember when Forward came to gainesville and was playing DSW in grand finals, he had to play DSW along with combat trash talk from most of florida, while it was really cool to watch, I can imagine he would've done better if he was focused solely on the game. Any kind of talking distracts the players from thinking about the game, commentators included, so please don't commentate right next to me while im playing either.

In between rounds coaching and trash talking are fine. I also think there should be longer breaks between matches.

 

[D. Disciple]

this times a billion..


you cant ban a crowd..

doesnt even coaches in other sports tell there players during plays what do do

smashers need to stop whining all the time, sorry if you lost from someone coaching somebody..get over it..people lose from crowds screaming in there ear all the time too

huh..ill quit this community if they come up with dumb rules that enforce coaching..so dumb


edit: read the other thread- what wobbles said about " what if the other player had mango as their coach"

not saying mango isnt a good coach or anything,but just because your the best,doesnt mean you will be the best coach/explain everything clear. im sure m2k would be a horrible coach or a few other great players..so that mango argument is humdrum . Hope that was clear..ill explain more after you respond

lol their use to be a rule that did enforce no coaching. However, a crowd yelling out different tips is different than having someone by your side, telling you everything that your opponent is doing move by move and telling you what moves to use.

 

[FoxLisk]

1) If you're letting someone coach you it's probably someone you trust. There's no reason to trust a whole crowd.

2) What if your coach isn't saying, 'watch those techs?' what if he's saying, "he techs left the first time you Dthrow him every time?" Is that level of depth fair? An observer can see a lot of things more easily than the player can because he has fewer things to focus on, so that kind of observation can be made more quickly and accurately by a coach.

3)
"It depends on how you look at them, are any of our tournaments, or players, sponsored? Are contracts signed between the players and the TO's? Or are these community hosted and run events with no real rules to dictate what is 'fair' and what is not other than stage and item restrictions."

I don't like this. You sound like you're saying, "our community isn't well-run and professional, and we don't want to change that." I don't want Melee to be underground forever. I want it to be picked up again by MLG or someone else, and have sponsorships and contracts and be a serious e-sport. Part of the path to the respect we want is earning it by making rules and such to dictate what is fair and what is not.

4) Everything Amsah said.

 

[Pi]

Make a rule that depicts what is and what is not coaching. Try it.

'players may not vocalize observations of opponents characters'
'that aint falco'
'phil is DQ'd from tournament'

And MLG doesn't have any rules against coaching.

 

[Quic]

Make a rule that depicts what is and what is not coaching. Try it.

'players may not vocalize observations of opponents characters'
'that aint falco'
'phil is DQ'd from tournament'

And MLG doesn't have any rules against coaching.

Both of these argumets are obviously redundant, that is not at all the way a rule would be implemented, we would have to come to some sort of proper ruling but in no way are we out to ban crowds, merely crowds that are influencing somebody's ability to read the opponent by doing it for them, or pointing out mistakes a player is making, so that the player becomes 'artificially' better.

The "MLG doesn't do it" commits an obvious fallacy, Appeal to authority.

 

[Nihonjin]

It depends on how you look at them, are any of our tournaments, or players, sponsored? Are contracts signed between the players and the TO's? Or are these community hosted and run events with no real rules to dictate what is 'fair' and what is not other than stage and item restrictions.

Last time I checked we do have rules that we need to play by to make things as fair as possible. What else do you think is stopping players from plugging in and fighting 2 on 1 in brackets to help out their friends?

How is having a bad coach different in melee than in any other sport? If you're learning from the wrong people, it's going to weigh heavily on your game. Whether they're talking in your ear while you're playing a bracket match or telling you the best way to get back onto the stage is to press R on the ledge during a friendly. The people you have available to you as training partners/coaches is going to affect how good of a player you are regardless of if they are available at the tournament or not.

Nice dodge, you should go into politics. Let me repeat.

The question is, is it fair during tournaments?

I think the answer is an overwhelming no.

What if ones friendly playstyle differs from his tournament playstyle?

Nonsense. The game doesn't change. If you take a friendly as serious as a tournament, you'll play the same.

And to go back to what I said earlier, what dictates coaching? What if as a coach I've worked with my player before and seen him forget to read techs, or forget to read jumps

Then that's none of your business.

and during a match I say
'Start reading those tech's' or
'Watch out for his 2nd jumps'. Is that too coachy? What if I get more specific and say
'punish those 2nd jumps out of combo's' or more specifically
'he's jumping out of your throws, wait for it'.
What about 'shield more' or
'you don't have to approach' or
'make him approach'
'grab the ledge'.

Then you're out of line. I don't see how that's any different from plugging in and beating up your friends opponent two on one (less extreme, but fundamentally the same).

Please explain to me how you're going to limit what people say.
'No one is able to shout/scream/whisper/utter/purvey/act out/do/say/or think anything that could or would affect the outcome of a singles bracket match under punishment of disqualification from the tournament.'

Coaching is considered to be advice or instruction of any kind, audible or visible, to a player.

Now that wasn't so hard was it?

 

[Ballistics]

Just make a rule for silence during tournament matches

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Just make a rule for silence during tournament matches

America =/= Japan

 

[Ballistics]

why because we have too many ADD kids here? its not that hard to be respectful

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

why because we have too many ADD kids here? its not that hard to be respectful

Because it's America, that's why.

 

[Ballistics]

Way to generalize people, I do not share your superstitions

 

[Pi]

Both of these argumets are obviously redundant, that is not at all the way a rule would be implemented, we would have to come to some sort of proper ruling but in no way are we out to ban crowds, merely crowds that are influencing somebody's ability to read the opponent by doing it for them, or pointing out mistakes a player is making, so that the player becomes 'artificially' better.

The "MLG doesn't do it" commits an obvious fallacy, Appeal to authority.

The methods of banning 'coaching' that I've seen thus far all come with far too many exceptions and stipulations;

in no way are we out to ban crowds, merely crowds that are influencing somebody's ability to read the opponent by doing it for them, or pointing out mistakes a player is making, so that the player becomes 'artificially' better.

We're not trying to ban this, merely this who does this by doing this, or doing this. That's all.

Last time I checked we do have rules that we need to play by to make things as fair as possible. What else do you think is stopping players from plugging in and fighting 2 on 1 in brackets to help out their friends?

What is and what is not fair, is again, left up to us. Was corneria 'fair'? It was for some years. Is FD fair? Well sure in some matchups some times. Is Fox fair? Is wobbling fair? Is trash talking fair? Is pausing fair? Is knee fair?forward air

Nonsense. The game doesn't change. If you take a friendly as serious as a tournament, you'll play the same.

The environment and pressure can change, and you know this. Old habits can come into play, and new ones can be forgotten. Expecting someone to remember every aspect of the match after it's happen, and trying to point out the mistakes they made on the 2nd stock on the left platform when they should have just wavelanded to another grab instead of going for that dair after the match is already over isn't going to have as much effect as when the situation was fresh in their minds.

Then that's none of your business.

What I said was paired with what came after it. If I've sat down with a player, and told him explicitly that he never predicts/chases 2nd jumps out of combo's, and he's realized this, then in the tourney match I see him forgetting this is saying 'watch those jumps' any different than saying 'he's jumping out of that combo every time, wait for it and punish it.' if it accomplishes the same thing?

Then you're out of line. I don't see how that's any different from plugging in and beating up your friends opponent two on one (less extreme, but fundamentally the same).

Because doing something for someone, and having them doing it under your instruction accomplishes the same thing does it? No. People have different methods of learning, some can watch videos and implement reads, combo's, playsyles that they've seen. Others need to actually do it and see results for themselves.

Coaching is considered to be advice or instruction of any kind, audible or visible, to a player.

Even restricting it to this comes with far too many exceptions/controversies.

'Don't go down there jeff'
'Camp more'
'Stay grounded'
'Wait for the tech'
'Wait for the 2nd jump'
'Stop approaching with nair'
'Grab the ledge'
'Upthrow'
'Upthrow & wait for the 2nd jump'
'He's tech rolling away from you every time'
'He never spot dodges, grab more'
'Space aerials behind him and then shield and wait for his reaction'

At what point is it unacceptable.


Why don't we just hold our tournaments at hospitals and hold every match in the surgery observation room.
We can call our matches over the PA system and ride gurneys to and fro.

 

[LLDL]

Coaching is fine, I wouldn't feel like I was robbed a win because my opponent was being coached. Plus, people get coached and still lose. Salty *** *****s.

 

[Nihonjin]

What is and what is not fair, is again, left up to us. Was corneria 'fair'? It was for some years. Is FD fair? Well sure in some matchups some times. Is Fox fair? Is wobbling fair? Is trash talking fair? Is pausing fair? Is knee fair?forward air

It's quite easy in this case.

We play singles. It's called singles because we play one on one. So having someone else help you out in any way shape or form is unfair.

The environment and pressure can change, and you know this. Old habits can come into play, and new ones can be forgotten. Expecting someone to remember every aspect of the match after it's happen, and trying to point out the mistakes they made on the 2nd stock on the left platform when they should have just wavelanded to another grab instead of going for that dair after the match is already over isn't going to have as much effect as when the situation was fresh in their minds.

Coaching doesn't help players deal with pressure, instead their coach deals with the pressure for them.

And no, they don't need to remember every aspect of the match, that's why we have recording setups.

But like I said, tournaments aren't training grounds, if you can't recall what you've learned during matches, then you need to practice more next time.

Which is exactly why I compared tournaments to exams. If you can't recall what you've learned during an exam, you're not allowed to grab a book and look it up or ask your teacher either.

What I said was paired with what came after it. If I've sat down with a player, and told him explicitly that he never predicts/chases 2nd jumps out of combo's, and he's realized this, then in the tourney match I see him forgetting this is saying 'watch those jumps' any different than saying 'he's jumping out of that combo every time, wait for it and punish it.' if it accomplishes the same thing?

It's no different.

Because doing something for someone, and having them doing it under your instruction accomplishes the same thing does it? No.

Irrelevant.

You're taking over certain parts of the game for them. It's no different from grabbing their controller.

People have different methods of learning, some can watch videos and implement reads, combo's, playsyles that they've seen. Others need to actually do it and see results for themselves.

Tournaments are not training grounds. They're proving grounds.

Even restricting it to this comes with far too many exceptions/controversies.

'Don't go down there jeff'
'Camp more'
'Stay grounded'
'Wait for the tech'
'Wait for the 2nd jump'
'Stop approaching with nair'
'Grab the ledge'
'Upthrow'
'Upthrow & wait for the 2nd jump'
'He's tech rolling away from you every time'
'He never spot dodges, grab more'
'Space aerials behind him and then shield and wait for his reaction'

At what point is it unacceptable.

What I said was pretty clear.

Coaching is considered to be advice or instruction of any kind, audible or visible, to a player.

All of the above falls under coaching and should not be allowed.

Why don't we just hold our tournaments at hospitals and hold every match in the surgery observation room.

Why?