The Cloud Theory (Thought exercise)

[Spellman]

I can not be the only one who sees master hand holding a bob-bomb right?

lmao! I see it. I'm gonna draw that up too.

It's kinda true though, the brain makes you see what you wanna see, I mean, until people flat out said they seen these images, I didn't see 'em. Although, it makes you wonder how these people seen these things in the first place, I mean I don't think Pink Reaper was like: "I want to see Master Hand holding a Bob-Omb and OH, THAR IT IS!"

 

[tennisthehilife]

Hehe, I like looking at clouds too.

Well I think the Cloud Theory is very interesting. Its fun believing, and means that Sakurai is really deep.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Hehe, I like looking at clouds too.

Well I think the Cloud Theory is very interesting. Its fun believing, and means that Sakurai is really deep.

It also means that sakurai loves mindgames

 

[Mama]

It also means that sakurai loves mindgames

Sakurai himself is a mindgame. He speaks in mind games. Develops mind games. He even eats mind games and craps out enigmas. If you were to cut him open a bunch of mind games would fly out and then you'd realize you never cut him open and that you were actually in line at EB Gamestop about to buy a bunch of Kirby games and toys.

Or is he? See that post was a mind game too. Or was it?

Daylight savings time is a mind game too lol. I posted this before you did and yet I posted it after >.>

 

[Chimera Reality]

Excuse me for not being too good drawing with a mouse.
But, I see from left to right:
Ganondorf, Ridley, Master Hand with a Bob-Omb, Bowser and Eggman.

 

[inside]

^Wow yours kind of makes sense too...

 

[MookieRah]

Normal? And I'm assuming that's anything you think. Normal is defined as the popular view of the community and time after time the majority have been proven wrong.

Wow man... Have you taken any psychology classes? You said this:

You can have a very physical view based soley on facts or a abstract view based on percentiles, patterns, and human rationalized thinking.

I have yet to run into someone who doesn't use both of your "views". Seriously... A LOT of the ways people generate facts is through the USE of percentiles, rationalized thinking, and graphs that chart the patterns that they find. The ironic thing is, that all of those things, while abstract, are still functions of the left side of the brain. They are all based around logic, and it's simply a way to gather information on something. When a credible fact is presented to someone that they know is a credible source, I'm willing to bet they will accept it. When a credible hypothesis (note hypothesis, we throw the word theory around all the time yet this "cloud theory" is just a mere hypothesis) is presented to the same average person with graphs, percentages, and is explained to in lamen's terms, the average person will accept it.

okay, now your arguing points that have not been made....okay as long as it makes you happy

I'm nipping it in the bud, seeing as how I've referenced the freeze frame so much I figured someone might bring that into account.

1)You must have just drawn a T-rex and then copy and pasted it were it fit best because it does not fit. I think you didn't stay well on the lines either.

Son, you is wrong about that one. Unlike yours and the other drawings here I absolutely sticked to the formation of the clouds. Not only that, I adjusted the opacity of the clouds when I drew it in photoshop so I could be able to tell where I have drawn and haven't drawn. The other picture that was drawn is way to good and it's obvious without blow ups that it goes beyond the clouds. He's simply trying to show off that he is a good artist, when that isn't the point.

Yes, I am biased against your opinion; however, I just traced the clouds. Basically all this is, is that it boils down to what you want to see, and when I draw the lines I saw in the cloud it's not what you wanted to see. Also, who else thinks it's funny that EVERY SINGLE INTERPRETATION of the figures in the clouds are different?

2) Clouds allusions are only suppose to make a general depiction of the character (enough to recongnize as a character by itself, whixh is why you don't see the shadowingof the characters body. You're suppose to be able to recongnize the horns are there. When someone looks at the clouds in the during gameplay he won't be like "Zomg the horn is slightly higher then it should be, that can't be Bowser"

It is a freeze frame for less than a second amongst clouds rolling in. Unless you were obsessed with trying to find Waldo in the videos you wouldn't have noticed it if it wasn't for the screen cap. The fact that it isn't obvious, and the fact that clouds aren't easy to morph into shapes means that it makes no sense to do that.

3) You said that making clouds form into any specific object takes alot of technology so they can't be super specific by your definitioin. However making a general depiction of the characters is no where near that dificult as it would be.

No it doesn't take super technology. People have been rendering clouds for a long long time. It takes a WHOLE LOT OF WORK, a WHOLE WHOLE lot of work. Weeks upon weeks to make some random blobby clouds form a shape kinda sorta but not unlike the figures you guys are seeing in the cloud. If the figures were a bit more prevalent or if they were there for a longer period of time, or one of the characters hinted at it's existance, it could work, but it's just a brief moment of clouds rolling in.

4) Clouds are complex and the technology required is advanced but 4 seconds of such value is not that hard.

The time it is on the screen doesn't matter -_-. This shows how little you know about 3D modeling and rendering. It's not that it takes super computers to render the clouds, it takes TIME to manually render the clouds to form the shape.

I know it seems stupid (from your side of things) for Sakurai to purposely take his time for something that seems so insignificant but given the time Sakurai's team has had on this game (remember that the real time animation team is seperate from the rest) and the shear numbers it oisn't to illogical.

They don't have time to do this. You also don't know about game developement (especially Japanese developers). These guys work to the bone trying to get the games to meet the deadlines. When it comes down to crunch time they will literally sleep in a cot underneath their desk. They don't have time to do something that isn't productive and that nobody would notice. There are a LOT of little detail that they put into the game (having the eyes of the characters lock on to their opponents and such) but all of those tiny things are vastly significant and one would eventually notice it. This however, would go completely and totally unnoticed and would be a blatant waste of time (and money). Not only that, if they did it on purpose and it's not obvious enough even those who do notice it won't necessarily believe it.

For those who think my clouds are drawn bad cause I am not good at drawing:

These are really really ancient actually. That was made right after Halo 2 was released. I wanted to post my digital painting of "Darth Shatner" I did last year but I'm currently in PC mode on my Mac and I'm about to play Hellgate London.

 

[Demon Kirby]

^Nice.

I can't draw for crap on computers. Only with a varriety pencils.

 

[Spellman]

Son, you is wrong about that one. Unlike yours and the other drawings here I absolutely sticked to the formation of the clouds. Not only that, I adjusted the opacity of the clouds when I drew it in photoshop so I could be able to tell where I have drawn and haven't drawn. The other picture that was drawn is way to good and it's obvious without blow ups that it goes beyond the clouds. He's simply trying to show off that he is a good artist, when that isn't the point.

Well, they wouldn't be clouds if they were exactly like the villains that we see, they'd just be big red floating heads. I was just trying to show how I saw the clouds (with a bit of imagination mind you), and how they relate to the image I see in my head when I look at it. Obviously things like some of the teeth and the way Bowser's snout juts out was kind of improvising, I realized the position that his and the others faces were in was unnatural, and skewed due to the fact that they are clouds. However, that's why I submitted an opacity: 25% version so that you could see where I stayed within the lines and where I winged it.

Oh and as for that freeze frame dealie, well, we don't really know what goes on behind the Smash Bros. Brawl developing team. It seems like all clouds in Smash Bros. are well designed, I don't know if this is because they use real clouds for some of them or if they actually have programs and design teams behind it but... we don't really know how easy or hard it is for them to make them. We just have evidence from other developers of movies and games talking about how they design clouds and how hard it is. Maybe Nintendo has figured out an easier way to render them and they just haven't told us? Maybe they have their own unreleased technology to work with and save them a lot of work.

Still seems unreasonable for them to put something like this in for a half a second though. Something that barely nobody would see without the aid of a screenshot. Well maybe we are underestimating the level of detail and effort that they are willing to put into something like this. I know the team is sleeping in desk drawers and stuff, but maybe this was made early in the developing process, when there was no deadline. Maybe the guy was like: "Hey look, doesn't this look cool?", "Yeah, let's have that in the opening sequence of the adventure.". Oh wah, highly unlikely, but it could happen. And before I get a "Well maybe pigs can fly." statement, I do realize how many times I have said maybe. I just think there is things in this world we can never know without actually being there. I mean, try and prove the world is round without having the media or some scientist giving you satalite images and you'll find it's mighty hard. It's hard to do it on your own without asking anyone, and just using evidence you have gathered.

That's why I find it hard to be so blunt with this subject until we receive confirmation, which will either be exposed at the Dojo or when we take home a copy of the game ourselves. Will Ganondorf, Bowser, and Ridley be a major plot element in the Subspace Emissary? Tough call at this point.

But, that's why it's just a theory.

For those who think my clouds are drawn bad cause I am not good at drawing:
...
These are really really ancient actually. That was made right after Halo 2 was released. I wanted to post my digital painting of "Darth Shatner" I did last year but I'm currently in PC mode on my Mac and I'm about to play Hellgate London.

Well, that is pretty sweet! Cool stuff.

 

[MookieRah]

It seems like all clouds in Smash Bros. are well designed,

Most clouds are simply generated for the most part. It's not really very hands on. The problem comes into play where you specifically have to morph the clouds into the image. That is no easy task. Trust me on that, it would be ridiculous.

Maybe Nintendo has figured out an easier way to render them and they just haven't told us? Maybe they have their own unreleased technology to work with and save them a lot of work.

That is a massive leap in logic. For starters, why would Nintendo even develope some kind of cloud rendering program specifically for this? Do they plan on using this effect in every one of their games (it would get old fast). If there was a program that did that, Nintendo of all people wouldn't be developing it, and it would likely be created by a 3rd party that would license the program out to movies and games and whatnot.

When you get down to the brass tax this entire thread is a leap in logic. You are also right about the whole thing, it is possible that they were intended to look like the villains, but there is no way to completely prove or disprove it, BUT the most logical consensus is that it's just simply a happy accident/unintended effect.

That's why I find it hard to be so blunt with this subject until we receive confirmation,

We won't ever receive confirmation on this, again I site the fact that it's a 1 second segment of the 3d sequence :-P.

To be honest, I'm being blunt because it's so overwhelmingly more plausible that it's not intentional, but because of the massive fandom and the overestimating the Nintendo team, people are willing to believe almost anything. I know the OP was saying "what if" but a lot of the people in this thread actually thinks this confirms characters or believe it to be 100% true. That is incredibly naive, and if NOBODY attempted to debate the opposing side then that is one less oppertunity to grow and mature and begin to question things in their life (aka increase the power of their BS radar). So many people get suckered into things that they want to believe and they get hurt from it. Either financially, physically, or emotionally, it can come in many forms. From the ridiculous hotty that uses you cause she knows you like her yet you are too delusional to see you are being used, to get rich quick schemes, pyramid schemes, faulty products being sold on tv (ENZYTE, LOLZ!!).

People gotta start somewhere, and I for one used to be one extremely naive guy, so I'm just trying to prevent trouble in my own small little way.

 

[Paingel]

Okay, to be honest, my work here is done.

If I had to I'd stand up, shake my fist at the heavens, and challenge the very Mods themselves... but you know what? All of the flaming has stopped. There's no reason to keep fighting after victory has already been achieved.

If you don't feel like you deserved my harsh words, then they probably weren't pointed at you.

If that wasn't clear enough: I wasn't talking to you, Buzz.

And yes.. you can coin whatever I say. If I cared about that I'd put more effort into making it known that it was my saying. And I didn't make up the phrase "thought excersize" anyways. I don't know who did.

But yeah. Sorry if I pissed anyone off, and I'm not trying to get all self-righteous or tell the Mods what to do or how to act. (Though I was surprised to see Gimpy act that way. Oh well, I just won't be surprised next time, right?)

I just hate flame wars, so I try my best to run off the flamers.

If you really wanna know why I was making such a big deal, go back and re-read the first few pages and look for incoherent flames. You'll find them, trust me.

 

[MookieRah]

and challenge the very Mods themselves...

LOL, we aren't infallible. It's also not like Gimpy or I abuse our mod powers cause someone has a differing opinion. If you think we are in the wrong about something you should speak your mind, as long as you aren't going against forum rules then there is nothing to be afraid about.

Though I was surprised to see Gimpy act that way.

He really didn't come off that bad to me, he was being sarcastic, but he wasn't exactly flaming either. Lemme show yas:

Gimpy's posts:

this is just ridiculous and absurd
this is such a far stretch from anything that could be considered rational thought i dont even know what to say

He was just being honest. I felt the same way. He didn't call out any names and this is a natural reaction to something that is so extreme.

i disagree with you, i believe that he put every character into the scales on bowsers hand, i can see them and they are real to me
how dare you try to tell me i'm wrong you closed minded fool

Sarcasm. He is making a remark that you can see anything you want to see in clouds if you tried hard enough.

KING DEDEDE TOO! i outlined his hammer in yellow!
CRAZY!
*rolls eyes*

This time he made a picture to illustrate how you can see many other things, and continued with the sarcasm.

wow did you just say that she actually isn't there after the entire point of this thread is magical villains in the clouds?

More sarcasm after poking at the hypocricy of the OP for saying what he saw wasn't there.

So basically, while he wasn't being professional, he didn't degrade into pure flaming. I honestly don't see a need for the Brawl mods to be super serious all the time, ESPECIALLY in this section. Gimpy is doing his job, and is a big part of the community on many levels, so yeah, it's no biggie that he's human.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i am not allowed to be human

robot status goooo

OH maybe m2k should be a mod then eh?

 

[Spellman]

Most clouds are simply generated for the most part. It's not really very hands on. The problem comes into play where you specifically have to morph the clouds into the image. That is no easy task. Trust me on that, it would be ridiculous.

That is a massive leap in logic. For starters, why would Nintendo even develope some kind of cloud rendering program specifically for this? Do they plan on using this effect in every one of their games (it would get old fast). If there was a program that did that, Nintendo of all people wouldn't be developing it, and it would likely be created by a 3rd party that would license the program out to movies and games and whatnot.

Yeah that sounds about right I guess. I know I did go a little off the scale when I decided to throw that possibility in there. Nintendo and all that have worked on Nintendo projects don't tend to stick with the same art style for more than one franchise.

...BUT the most logical consensus is that it's just simply a happy accident/unintended effect.

We won't ever receive confirmation on this, again I site the fact that it's a 1 second segment of the 3d sequence :-P.

Yeah, that's also probably true, I was actually trying to imply that Ganon+Bowser+Ridley as villains is confirmation of the clouds, but it really isn't, it'd probably be a coincidence. But I don't expect any of the higher ups to say anything about our thoughts on the subject other than: "Wow."

To be honest, I'm being blunt because it's so overwhelmingly more plausible that it's not intentional, but because of the massive fandom...
...People gotta start somewhere, and I for one used to be one extremely naive guy, so I'm just trying to prevent trouble in my own small little way.

Seems fair. 'Cept for the snark remark about the Enzyte, I mean this stuff was totally worth it, it's improved my life... like... oh who am I kidding, I WANT MY MONEY BACK! ...well, at least I have my Q-Ray bracelet. *sniffle*

Seriously, you make a good point.

 

[Chimera Reality]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYGSU0i5Mk

I made a video on the Cloud Theory.
Watch, rate and pass it on please.
Oh and comment.

 

[Paingel]

Well, yeah. I guess I saw Gimpy's sarcasm and in my mind I lumped him in with the other more inflamatory posters. I suppose my reaction to him wasn't all that justified, either.

But anyways, I still have to question some of your points though, MookieRah. It seems like you do know a thing or two about computer graphics, but I have to counter some of the things that you say.

It's true that it takes a lot of time to render a complicated scene. This is especially true when you get into Raytracing and stuff like that. However, in simpler rendering schemes it's actually possible to render things like clouds in real time. (Otherwise, there'd be severe lag every time you wavedashed.) This doesn't really prove that Sakurai does this on purpose, but it's not necessarily true that this would be "too hard". With computer graphics, it's easy to make the scene render faster if you're willing to sacrifice the quality. And besides, since all of this stuff is rendered ahead of time and put into the game as a movie, does it really matter how long it takes for them to mess with the clouds? These guys are professionals. They'll do it until it's right.

Also: These people are in the software business. They're used to making new programs. They might re-use some stuff from previous games, but then there's a lot of stuff from older games that they just throw away. It's not uncommon for people to make their own 3D rendering applications in order to do just one specific thing. Actually, it happens all the time in movie studios that deal with a lot of 3D modeling in their movies. If you want a specific example of this: The guys who made Advent Children said, in an interview that's actually on the FF7: AC disc, that they made their own program just for that movie. Whether they had planned to use it for other stuff, I don't recall them saying either way.

If they're making Brawl, then they're already making a program that no one else has already made. Why not make yet another one? With particle physics, making clouds into specific shapes wouldn't be impossible to do.

HOWEVER...

I can't really prove that the clouds DO make these shapes for one reason and one reason only: Most of the villains that people have claimed to see have a lot of "pointy" features. Why is that important? Because things that are pointy tend to look sinister. We don't see Mother Brain, we see Ridley with his pointy teeth. We don't see Ganon's piggy face. We see Ganondorf with his pointy nose. We see Bowser, with his pointy teeth, but we don't see Dedede (aside from Gimpy's sarcastic posts) who has no pointy features at all. While is possible that Sakurai wanted to make villain heads in the clouds, it's also possible that he just wanted to make sinister-looking clouds. And it just so happened that certain areas of these sinister-looking clouds looked like sinister-looking villains if you look at them the right way.

If that's true, then that's just like a case of seeing faces on the wall. The people who made your house probably never intended to put little 'hidden' faces there. However, the way the wall is made, there are a lot of little spots on it. Whenever two of those spots tend to be nearby and roughly the same size, they begin to look like eyes and in turn the other nearby parts of the wall tend to look like parts of a face. That's all there is to it, really. Nothing fancy or intentional, just a product of your mind's efficient pattern-recognition scheme.

 

[Radamanthus]

someone told me they had friends in high places that had confirmed ridley as...





an AT. i'll believe it when i see it...

also, i heard that there's something in the brain so that we always try to see something in a random pattern, even if there's nothing there, we still think we see it.

 

[maxieman]

At first I thought you meant the character Cloud lol

But yeah I really cant see this as being coincidence as the right two perfectley resemble bowser and ridley (Ganandorf is hard to make out looks like he has fins or somethin lol) but yeah this theory is a good one and shouldnt be dismissed so quickly

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

CLOuD CONfIRMED

 

[Lgndknight]

Ridley got beasted by Rayquaza, since Rayquaza appears to be a boss, and the cloud actually looks like Rayquaza

 

[maxieman]

Ridley got beasted by Rayquaza, since Rayquaza appears to be a boss, and the cloud actually looks like Rayquaza

ahahahahaha looks like Ridley got facepwned

EDIT: actually if hes a boss... then the right 2 may be Ridley and Rayquaza

 

[Galvanic]

Alternate Cloud Theory..?

I don't have time to research and screen shot, tonight, but what about the other clouds in the trailer before the sky turns black? What is the possibility that they have random characters in them?

 

[lethminite]

unlikely, it wouldn't even make sense.
least with only the 3 bosses, it makes sense why they would appear.

 

[Kraatu]

I see samus in the sky though...

or dark samus... dunno, check the original image for comparison

 

[limitbreak]

I think the only one that anyone is certain of is bowser. All the others are still pretty difficult to see.

 

[Darqion]

I clearly saw the hand, bowser, and "something" on the right.. wasnt sure on thatone.

it was to clear to be incidentel imo

 

[Pikaville]

If I had of seen the pic on its own before you said anything I definitly would have seen Bowser and the master Hand (I can in fact see all of the aforementioned badguys)

In order from left to right as I see them(correct me if im wrong)

1)Gannondorf
2)Master hand(Dark clouds in the midddle)
3)Bowser
4) Rayquaza,Ridley or some dragon thing

 

[Radamanthus]

if it shows the bosses, then why isn't petey in there?

 

[Talendime]

if it shows the bosses, then why isn't petey in there?

Probably just the most important bosses are shown.
I'm really doubting Ridley will be a character now.. And that kind of sucks, 'cause he looked really cool.

 

[Shuma]

Master Hand, Bowser, Ridley. That's all i see.

 

[XACE-K]

You put a lot of effort into this homeless and that is agood thing.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Bump for correctness.