The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
I agree 100% Rutger.
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The ChunSoft Thread: Zero Escape Series & Banshee's Last Cry
- Thread starter Raziek
- Start date
I believe that a game should be complete, and it just gives me this feeling that it isn't when it doesn't wrap around the ending in the game.
This rant might be because I was extremely impressed by the ending of 999 (
The appearance of Alice at the end blew my ****ing mind
Sine Mora is pretty good.
I actually really liked the ending in VLR as well. It wrapped up all my questions about the current Nonary Game, but set everything up nicely for the third game.
I actually really liked the ending in VLR as well. It wrapped up all my questions about the current Nonary Game, but set everything up nicely for the third game.
jamlosingthegame
Smash Lord
- Joined
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- In NY, losing The Game (constantly)
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- jamlosingthegame
Raziek is supposed to help me and LivewiresXe understand each other about
. Maybe he didn't make the jump?
Another Time
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Ooooooh right! Lemme seeee.... gotta find the post.
Ok, so here's essentially why I think you're wrong on that one, LWX.
Tenmyouji's Biker analogy sets a couple important premises:
1) When history is "re-written by S", it is possible that the lives of the 10 bikers who survive will be erased.
2) There is intrinsic worth in the lives lived by those surviving 10, regardless of the hardships they faced.
Tenmyouji's story is driven very much out of his personal resentment for his own situation. He speaks of erasing the lives of the 9 who lived. This very much parallels his experiences in both 999 and VLR.
Consider what he's been through. In 999, he goes through (at minimum), the deaths of Clover and Snake, in the Safe ending. That consciousness of his goes back in time to write the alternate history of the true ending. But suppose the Safe ending had continued. What if Junpei and the other survivors (Seven, Lotus) had escaped and gone on to live their lives? Erasing that timeline by re-writing the past erases anything and everything experienced during those lives, despite the better outcome in the new timeline. Perhaps Junpei had a child that will now never even exist.
The same thing very much applies to VLR, except Junpei is now one of those 9 on the doomed path. He's lived a long life, spent in desperate search for Akane. It's not all bad, of course, because he met Quark. But consider his perspective. He's lost any chance he had to reconnect with Akane, because she has chosen to attempt to preserve the future, rather than make the best of the timeline she was in. Perhaps she could have led a happy life with Junpei, despite the ruined world they come to live in.
More importantly, he resents what she is doing. Because he does not open his mind to the existence of multiple timelines, his life with Quark will be "erased" when history is corrected, as Dr. Kilm and Akane are attempting to do. In his mind, his existence will be erased. He'll have never met Quark. He won't remember any of it. That, to him, is significant loss.
In some sense, you're right, in that he's lost sight of the greater good. However, what he mourns is the lives lost. Both the potential lives sacrificed in the name of writing of a better future, and the lives that will be erased (in his mind) when it is re-written. If there was evidence to suggest multiple parallel timelines, in which those lives are preserved, he might think differently. For Phi and Sigma, and our hypothetical biker "S", they are not lost, because their consciousness jumps to another timeline. But those who don't, are lost, in his mind. (Be that the 9 bikers who survived, or himself/Quark)
But in his position, he cannot accept that. He lives in a timeline that is not the "true" timeline, and if only one "true" timeline can exist, Tenmyouji as he exists will be erased. As will Quark, and everything he holds dear.
Clover and Alice further elaborate on this, after the conversation with Tenmyouji. "We're stuck at point C as our starting point. We can't go back. We're stuck in the reality where the nintey bikers died. Are we supposed to go back to Earth? It's a wasteland now. And what of our friends and families? We left a whole world behind 45 years ago.
Even if it's for the greater good, it just doesn't seem fair, does it?"
Ok, so here's essentially why I think you're wrong on that one, LWX.
Tenmyouji's Biker analogy sets a couple important premises:
1) When history is "re-written by S", it is possible that the lives of the 10 bikers who survive will be erased.
2) There is intrinsic worth in the lives lived by those surviving 10, regardless of the hardships they faced.
Tenmyouji's story is driven very much out of his personal resentment for his own situation. He speaks of erasing the lives of the 9 who lived. This very much parallels his experiences in both 999 and VLR.
Consider what he's been through. In 999, he goes through (at minimum), the deaths of Clover and Snake, in the Safe ending. That consciousness of his goes back in time to write the alternate history of the true ending. But suppose the Safe ending had continued. What if Junpei and the other survivors (Seven, Lotus) had escaped and gone on to live their lives? Erasing that timeline by re-writing the past erases anything and everything experienced during those lives, despite the better outcome in the new timeline. Perhaps Junpei had a child that will now never even exist.
The same thing very much applies to VLR, except Junpei is now one of those 9 on the doomed path. He's lived a long life, spent in desperate search for Akane. It's not all bad, of course, because he met Quark. But consider his perspective. He's lost any chance he had to reconnect with Akane, because she has chosen to attempt to preserve the future, rather than make the best of the timeline she was in. Perhaps she could have led a happy life with Junpei, despite the ruined world they come to live in.
More importantly, he resents what she is doing. Because he does not open his mind to the existence of multiple timelines, his life with Quark will be "erased" when history is corrected, as Dr. Kilm and Akane are attempting to do. In his mind, his existence will be erased. He'll have never met Quark. He won't remember any of it. That, to him, is significant loss.
In some sense, you're right, in that he's lost sight of the greater good. However, what he mourns is the lives lost. Both the potential lives sacrificed in the name of writing of a better future, and the lives that will be erased (in his mind) when it is re-written. If there was evidence to suggest multiple parallel timelines, in which those lives are preserved, he might think differently. For Phi and Sigma, and our hypothetical biker "S", they are not lost, because their consciousness jumps to another timeline. But those who don't, are lost, in his mind. (Be that the 9 bikers who survived, or himself/Quark)
But in his position, he cannot accept that. He lives in a timeline that is not the "true" timeline, and if only one "true" timeline can exist, Tenmyouji as he exists will be erased. As will Quark, and everything he holds dear.
Clover and Alice further elaborate on this, after the conversation with Tenmyouji. "We're stuck at point C as our starting point. We can't go back. We're stuck in the reality where the nintey bikers died. Are we supposed to go back to Earth? It's a wasteland now. And what of our friends and families? We left a whole world behind 45 years ago.
Even if it's for the greater good, it just doesn't seem fair, does it?"
I believe the future that VLR takes place in doesn't necessarily alter/change, but rather a new future in another reality is created. For example, take the biker analogy. I think the reality where the 9 bikers live in doesn't disappear. The 10th biker that went back in time simply created another reality when he made the opposite decision and then went on to exist in that one.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
That would be the option that Junpei wishes for, yes. However, it cannot be guaranteed.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
That's kinda what I'm thinking too. Well, if it involves that one person being transferred to the other timeline. Also, on the official VLR website there's like an 80 page Q&A with the director. It answers a bunch of things (is obviously spoiler heavy), refuses to answer some obvious things, and oddly enough looks to try and derail my preferred VLR pairing since I'm not a fan of the implied canon one.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Why are you surprised that it derails a non-canon pairing?
Also I'll fix the thread title after class.
Also I'll fix the thread title after class.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I'm not actually surprised by it really, it's just a little annoying since
(don't know if spoiler tags are needed here, but whatever) I've always been "meh" and never really a fan of Sigma/Luna(or 'Diana' technically now if you will) since I preferred the thought of YoungSigma/Phi personally. There's that and the fact I've always suspected that it'll be revealed for Radical-6 to not get out that "real Luna/Diana" has to die.
Well anyway,
I kind of wonder what kind of characters will appear in the next Zero Escape. Will the 999 cast that were absent from the third nonary game (including modern Junpei) have an involvement in the third game? Will the psychic children other than Snake and Clover play more significant roles? Will there be (and how many) new characters in the new game other than the antagonists? As characters play a large a role in the game, it got me thinking. I'm also wondering if the next game's setting is only limited to the place where Radical-6 broke out.
That sort of brings me to my next point about another problem I have with the ending. The ending almost insinuates that the next game will most likely take place in the building that became the source of the outbreak. If that's the case, I don't like the idea. A healthy amount of the thrill that I got from both 999 and VLR was that I didn't know where I was, why I was there, who I was with, and so on and so forth. The whole scenario, and I mean the WHOLE scenario, was a mystery, and by playing the game and unlocking different endings and paths we would piece together the mystery. In this new setting, I already know where I am, why I'm here doing this, and a general idea who the people I'm with and fighting against. A good chunk of the questions are already answered, and it seems the only mystery and thrill comes from how to stop the outbreak and figure out who's behind it. If it was any other game, this plot would be good enough on its own. But for Zero Escape, this seems to simple. I want to have the thrill I get from the first two games, and I really hope that the third game does the same. But I have doubts now that I have more information. Thoughts?
That sort of brings me to my next point about another problem I have with the ending. The ending almost insinuates that the next game will most likely take place in the building that became the source of the outbreak. If that's the case, I don't like the idea. A healthy amount of the thrill that I got from both 999 and VLR was that I didn't know where I was, why I was there, who I was with, and so on and so forth. The whole scenario, and I mean the WHOLE scenario, was a mystery, and by playing the game and unlocking different endings and paths we would piece together the mystery. In this new setting, I already know where I am, why I'm here doing this, and a general idea who the people I'm with and fighting against. A good chunk of the questions are already answered, and it seems the only mystery and thrill comes from how to stop the outbreak and figure out who's behind it. If it was any other game, this plot would be good enough on its own. But for Zero Escape, this seems to simple. I want to have the thrill I get from the first two games, and I really hope that the third game does the same. But I have doubts now that I have more information. Thoughts?
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Spoiler tags are broken again. They are now [collapse again.
I've made edits to the posts on this page, but be careful if you tread into previous pages.
I've made edits to the posts on this page, but be careful if you tread into previous pages.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
That's weird that they're broken again. But thanks for making the necessary changes, Raziek.
Does no one have a response to my post...? :sadface:
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I think for me, the problem I have with answering some if it is that well...I feel that a chunk of the stuff needed to answer is stuff I don't currently know.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
I chose not to get too much into it because you seem to have a problem with the path the narrative essentially HAS to take, by definition.
This is a planned trilogy of games, designed to have continuity all the way through. By that fact alone, it's necessary that things become less of a mystery as we go, otherwise it's impossible to conclude the story.
With VLR, it was less of a problem, because it was revealed during the story how everything ties into 999. But based on how the narrative is planned to play out, it is essentially required that we have some knowledge of the events, going into it. Starting in the "no info" situation loses continuity, and causes an episodic feel to the game, when the director is clearly aiming to conclude the story.
" I didn't know where I was, why I was there, who I was with, and so on and so forth. "
Even this is still at least partially true. We know vaguely where the story will take place, but there could be parts that aren't there. We know who we are, I'll grant you that. But we don't know anything about the other characters involved yet aside from Phi, and little else about the story. There are still QUITE A FEW questions left unanswered from VLR, and I for one am looking forward to seeing the rest of the story as it is meant to be told.
This is a planned trilogy of games, designed to have continuity all the way through. By that fact alone, it's necessary that things become less of a mystery as we go, otherwise it's impossible to conclude the story.
With VLR, it was less of a problem, because it was revealed during the story how everything ties into 999. But based on how the narrative is planned to play out, it is essentially required that we have some knowledge of the events, going into it. Starting in the "no info" situation loses continuity, and causes an episodic feel to the game, when the director is clearly aiming to conclude the story.
" I didn't know where I was, why I was there, who I was with, and so on and so forth. "
Even this is still at least partially true. We know vaguely where the story will take place, but there could be parts that aren't there. We know who we are, I'll grant you that. But we don't know anything about the other characters involved yet aside from Phi, and little else about the story. There are still QUITE A FEW questions left unanswered from VLR, and I for one am looking forward to seeing the rest of the story as it is meant to be told.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Oh agreed for sure. VLR certainly left me with a LOT of questions after it that I'm dying to get answered.
I guess its a matter of opinion then. Personally, I don't mind if a series has a sort of episodic feel, and I don't think that should generally be perceived as something bad. I think anybody who has played VLR from start to finish is left with questions they want answered, but in the end, imo I don't think that any of these questions are quite on the same level of the questions I had in the beginning of each game, as they gave more of a "thrill" feeling. I believe not knowing anything is the best feeling to have in the start of a game that has the same nature as the Zero Escape series, and it's always something I think Aksys games nails every time.
Wow, a month has gone by? Hope someone is still around to talk about this game!
Just finished this over the weekend. Had to look up the answers to three of the puzzles. Two of them were just mental errors, probably a result of constantly playing so much. As in, I was doing the puzzle correctly but just screwed up my perceptions, making the puzzle impossible. The gold file in the infirmary, however? I have no idea how I was supposed to figure that one out.
I guess I'll try spoilers for the rest, though they seem to not work.
Still, at this point if you get spoiled I don't know how you did that.
Here are some random thoughts...
Nice! got it with the collapse instead!
Just finished this over the weekend. Had to look up the answers to three of the puzzles. Two of them were just mental errors, probably a result of constantly playing so much. As in, I was doing the puzzle correctly but just screwed up my perceptions, making the puzzle impossible. The gold file in the infirmary, however? I have no idea how I was supposed to figure that one out.
I guess I'll try spoilers for the rest, though they seem to not work.
Still, at this point if you get spoiled I don't know how you did that.
Here are some random thoughts...
When did Dio get infected with Radical-6? I suppose during the Phi storyline the old woman could have just done it while dragging him into the chamber, but what about the ones where she dies? Is the virus just floating around the air throughout the facility?
Clover offers to go out on a date with Sigma during one timeline. Um...eew? Dude's like 70!
Also when did Clover become such a ditz? Way to (kinda) ruin my favorite character from the first game! I hope she's just trolling. Yeah, I can hope.
On the other hand, I was wondering why Sigma always seemed to get overpowered by everyone else while other people just got away and through the 9 door. Still, the end where you get your hand chopped off didn't make sense to me as an end. Kinda nitpicking though.
Not sure why people think the suspense will be gone in the next game. Different, hopefully, but they've already done an excellent job through two games of twists and suspense that are actually somewhat plausible. It's also not a given that you know who you're going to be. You can assume Kyle, but are you sure?
I think what Junpei is saying with the biker analogy is that he has the ability to change realities but he is choosing not to. I think this is going to be a point of contention in the next game, as my guess is that he's bitter after not being able to find Akane for so long, and wasn't happy with the circumstances of their reunion. Unless changing the past prevents Quark from being born somehow, I don't see a reason why he can't use his abilities to reunite himself with Quark in the alternate reality. Then again without armageddon maybe Quark has a family. Maybe Quark is also an esper which will make the reuniting easy.
Gonna call this one. Brother = Santa. Not 100 percent sure how this is possible but I believe only he and Lotus weren't mentioned other than that secret file that listed everyone from the first game. Oh and I guess Mr. 9 wasn't mentioned either, but does that matter?
Going back to Clover, it says she's 20 in this game. That means she was 19 in the last game. I swear she was younger than that, though.
Why was this called the Nonary game? They should have just called it the Ambidex game. What there's a giant 9 on the door, so we get to call it a nonary game? I see no reason for them to link this nonary game to the last nonary game, other than to freak Clover out, so yeah.
Still feel bad for Clover. Only 20 years old and the only person to unwillingly have to go through three nonary games.
What was Alice doing that she's be wearing THAT when she was kidnapped?
I'm also guessing that the woman in danger that led to the arms and the eye is Phi.
Speaking of Phi, she's not Superman, Batman, etc. but she is the Bionic Woman. I gotta see what's in her legs.
Alrighty, that's enough for now. Now let's see if these spoiler tags work....
Clover offers to go out on a date with Sigma during one timeline. Um...eew? Dude's like 70!
Also when did Clover become such a ditz? Way to (kinda) ruin my favorite character from the first game! I hope she's just trolling. Yeah, I can hope.
On the other hand, I was wondering why Sigma always seemed to get overpowered by everyone else while other people just got away and through the 9 door. Still, the end where you get your hand chopped off didn't make sense to me as an end. Kinda nitpicking though.
Not sure why people think the suspense will be gone in the next game. Different, hopefully, but they've already done an excellent job through two games of twists and suspense that are actually somewhat plausible. It's also not a given that you know who you're going to be. You can assume Kyle, but are you sure?
I think what Junpei is saying with the biker analogy is that he has the ability to change realities but he is choosing not to. I think this is going to be a point of contention in the next game, as my guess is that he's bitter after not being able to find Akane for so long, and wasn't happy with the circumstances of their reunion. Unless changing the past prevents Quark from being born somehow, I don't see a reason why he can't use his abilities to reunite himself with Quark in the alternate reality. Then again without armageddon maybe Quark has a family. Maybe Quark is also an esper which will make the reuniting easy.
Gonna call this one. Brother = Santa. Not 100 percent sure how this is possible but I believe only he and Lotus weren't mentioned other than that secret file that listed everyone from the first game. Oh and I guess Mr. 9 wasn't mentioned either, but does that matter?
Going back to Clover, it says she's 20 in this game. That means she was 19 in the last game. I swear she was younger than that, though.
Why was this called the Nonary game? They should have just called it the Ambidex game. What there's a giant 9 on the door, so we get to call it a nonary game? I see no reason for them to link this nonary game to the last nonary game, other than to freak Clover out, so yeah.
Still feel bad for Clover. Only 20 years old and the only person to unwillingly have to go through three nonary games.
What was Alice doing that she's be wearing THAT when she was kidnapped?
I'm also guessing that the woman in danger that led to the arms and the eye is Phi.
Speaking of Phi, she's not Superman, Batman, etc. but she is the Bionic Woman. I gotta see what's in her legs.
Alrighty, that's enough for now. Now let's see if these spoiler tags work....
Nice! got it with the collapse instead!
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
The Phi jumping thing was explained. Low gravity.
Astraea31
Smash Apprentice
Found Zero's Escape for $10 at a pawn shop on Saturday! I'll update with a pic when I pick it up tomorrow. And it was the same day I picked up OOT off some guy on kijiji but spent my extra $10 like an idiot on some crappy Pad Sew before I found out about it....
And I'm pretty sure it's still there because they had a case full of DS games that nobody ever buys, and I live in a pretty ghetto neighborhood.
And I'm pretty sure it's still there because they had a case full of DS games that nobody ever buys, and I live in a pretty ghetto neighborhood.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Nice, that's pretty lucky. But, it's also kind of sad that it was delegated to $10.
Astraea31
Smash Apprentice
The guys at the pawn shop have no idea of it's worth. That and it doesn't come with a case. I also saw them selling old GBA games for $20...
Did he have TWEWY? Now that's a rare gem nowadays.
I have new copies of TWEWY at work.
When we have it, no one wants it. When we don't have it, everyone is looking for it.
Go figure.
When we have it, no one wants it. When we don't have it, everyone is looking for it.
Go figure.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
RESURRECTIN' THIS ****.
Mainly because this is closely related enough that I can lump it in here.
Aksys/ChunSoft recently released Banshee's Last Cry on iOS (android release coming soon), which is a localization of what is apparently a REALLY old game, originally on the SNES.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee's_Last_Cry
I've been playing it over the past few days and got a few of the endings. Game is super creepy, and does a lot of the stuff that 999/VLR do in terms of atmospheric music & descriptive gore.
Anyone else been playing it?
Mainly because this is closely related enough that I can lump it in here.
Aksys/ChunSoft recently released Banshee's Last Cry on iOS (android release coming soon), which is a localization of what is apparently a REALLY old game, originally on the SNES.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee's_Last_Cry
I've been playing it over the past few days and got a few of the endings. Game is super creepy, and does a lot of the stuff that 999/VLR do in terms of atmospheric music & descriptive gore.
Anyone else been playing it?
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Never even heard of it but I'm so hyped for the last game in the Zero Escape series!
Hoping we get some sort of news soon.
Hoping we get some sort of news soon.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
Realized I gave like no description to it. It's a muder mystery who-dunnit type deal set in a ski lodge in British Columbia.
Apparently there are something like 30 endings, and the story has a couple of main "types" that you can unlock? The first is a straight murder, but apparently there are "occult" and "spy" branches as well.
Apparently there are something like 30 endings, and the story has a couple of main "types" that you can unlock? The first is a straight murder, but apparently there are "occult" and "spy" branches as well.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
I haven't heard of it either, but it sounds good. Though I also have to ask, what was that upcoming Visual Novel thing with the train or whatever? Is that made by the same people?
I wanna play it so bad.
No iOS for me though, just poverty phone.
No iOS for me though, just poverty phone.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Does anyone know when it's releasing for Android?
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
*bump*
Bad news my fellow Zero Escape fans... Apparently Virtue's Last Reward didn't do well enough on the market to warrant a sequel. http://www.playstationlifestyle.net...tage-says-director-a-lot-of-budget-is-needed/
I'm extremely saddened by this news since I'm so invested in this series... VLR ended on such a cliffhanger it'd be an absolute shame if the final game never came to be. This amazing story NEEDS to be finished. ;.;
Bad news my fellow Zero Escape fans... Apparently Virtue's Last Reward didn't do well enough on the market to warrant a sequel. http://www.playstationlifestyle.net...tage-says-director-a-lot-of-budget-is-needed/
I'm extremely saddened by this news since I'm so invested in this series... VLR ended on such a cliffhanger it'd be an absolute shame if the final game never came to be. This amazing story NEEDS to be finished. ;.;
Man, I don't often say this, but we need a Kickstarter or something for this, I would totally donate.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
I could've sworn I posted something about this when I saw it, but I guess I didn't.
https://www.facebook.com/operationbluebirdze3
Is the current Campaign Hub for supporting ZE3.
https://www.facebook.com/operationbluebirdze3
Is the current Campaign Hub for supporting ZE3.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
It's really sad that it's come to needing a kickstarter considering that both Zero Escape games have gotten critical acclaim ratings wise, and the thought of it possibly ending with a LOT left to answer in the story is pretty sad. Well, I guess all we can do is pass it around.
Operation Bluebird is kind of like showing that people would want the game to come out, it's not crowdfunding.
So, it doesn't necessarily need a Kickstarter, I'm just saying that I would contribute to one.
So, it doesn't necessarily need a Kickstarter, I'm just saying that I would contribute to one.
LivewiresXe
Smash Hero
Well yeah, I kinda figured that. I mean, it pretty clearly is just a bunch of fans saying they really want the game. It's odd though that the series gets a lot of review acclaim over here yet was badly received in Japan. It's almost like they'd have had better luck making them for North America and then porting them to Japan based off interest.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
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- 10,050
Hey guys, here's something to ponder about.
Phi and Sigma made the same time leaps, right? That means that they both experienced the events of the Mars Landing Test Site and both willingly partnered up with Akane to develop the AB Project. If that's the case, why was it necessary for Phi to remain young for 45 years while Sigma was forced to study up to develop the AB Project along with Akane? Doesn't that seem like a job better suited for Phi? For the sake of discussion, let's assume that it's not because "that's what they saw when they looked into the future" and that it's not because they didn't want too many unattractive grannies in VLR.
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Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/10/999-novel-will-trap-iphone-users-march-17/
This is actually pretty hype. I may pick this up, just so I can enjoy the story again without having to do the puzzles and mash frantically through dialogue.
This is actually pretty hype. I may pick this up, just so I can enjoy the story again without having to do the puzzles and mash frantically through dialogue.