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The BUM movement.

Cia

das kwl
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
8,231
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Top of the Tier List
Umm.. Jesiah, You pretty much just blew ur entire case for why DK beats FOX. Laser camping isn't something that M2K does on his own, it's "standard fox practice." That being said, can't say bum lost because M2K had to laser camp. Any smart fox would have done it, and that's how FOX ***** DK. And in smaller stages where camping isn't as easy, drill shine works pretty well.

Idk how much truth there was to the "KDJ dare thing," but fox would have been better for M2K IMO. Bum knows how to play foxes, but against Marth, he REALLY shows his ***. Marth HAS to get personal to get damage. DK's force against MARTH is just obscene. I'm really not sure who would have won if M2K went Marth.
 

Pythag

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
2,627
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Flux
ooh! ooh! I know how we can all agree!
DK PWNS FOX AND MARTH!

Isn't that why we play dk?
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
Getting back to the whole not "whose the best debate" I'd have to say that after I heard that I started playing new characters. Not just DK, but trying out all the characters again (something I haven't really done since I began playing).
 

not_mouf

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
71
tha fact that m2k was even able laser camp dk showz that fox rapez dk

dk requirez a grab to **** fox. dk is slow, his grab range and speed is mediocre, and fox has this thing called tha shine that makez it really hard for any character to grab em.

dk'z shield is horrible, fox can put alot pressure on shield wit drillshinez. shine leadz to anything fox wantz on dk

fox can just ledge hop bair to edgegaurd dk (using invincibility framez from tha ledge to get around tha whole invincible armz stuff)

dk vs marth is much better for dk than dk vs fox

kdj dared m2k to use fox becuz bum murderz foxez im guessing, like i said before dont draw conclusionz from bum becuz hez amazing, hez an exception. u dont go sayin falcon has an advantage over falco cuz u saw isai 4 stock mofo right? and i understand that m2k and bum are close in skill but fox won so ya fox has tha advantage
 

ace_marth

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
2,568
Location
bronx, ny (im up for any fights, if u intersested,
OOOOHHHHH SHlT my ***** bum got his own appreciation thread lol good ****.

im not gonna lie Bum is one of the reasons i am where i am now. if it werent for him i'd still be wack. his gay tactics and ugly counterpick stages taught me a lot lol. i hate u bum.

nah but bum does eat marth. and fox. and falco. and shiek. and samus. and ganon. and captain. and peach. and GAW. and Pika. and pichu. and DK. and Bowser. and Doc. and Luigi. and Mario. and link. and y.link. and IC;s. and zelda. and jiggz. and mewtwo. and ima stop here cuz i just noticed i have no life.

and bum ur mewtwo and ness SUCK LOL nah im playin. but ur kirby does lmao.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
4,126
Location
Rochester, NY
tha fact that m2k was even able laser camp dk showz that fox rapez dk

dk requirez a grab to **** fox. dk is slow, his grab range and speed is mediocre, and fox has this thing called tha shine that makez it really hard for any character to grab em.

dk'z shield is horrible, fox can put alot pressure on shield wit drillshinez. shine leadz to anything fox wantz on dk

fox can just ledge hop bair to edgegaurd dk (using invincibility framez from tha ledge to get around tha whole invincible armz stuff)

dk vs marth is much better for dk than dk vs fox

kdj dared m2k to use fox becuz bum murderz foxez im guessing, like i said before dont draw conclusionz from bum becuz hez amazing, hez an exception. u dont go sayin falcon has an advantage over falco cuz u saw isai 4 stock mofo right? and i understand that m2k and bum are close in skill but fox won so ya fox has tha advantage
getting grabs off for DK on fox isn't that hard. You saw BUM grab the crap out of m2k? SHIELDGRABS!!! shieldgrabs are so underrated man, your always in an advantage if you shieldgrab. and dude, 3 missed grabs are worth 1 successful grab for dk vs fox.

Anyone who says that Fox ***** DK is silly. DK has tons of great points in the matchup, and an almost Shiek-like ability to get cheap KOs if the Fox jumps at the wrong time. Fox's combos on DK are just standard Fox fare. DK's chaingrab/juggle vs. Fox is better than Marth's CG and his edgeguarding is great as well.

At worst the matchup is 4-6 in Fox's advantage. Fox can barely even edgeguard DK.
DK's grabs and chaingrabs/juggles are about even with marth's, if not a lil better/a lil worse.

Fox owns DK. DK can do little without a grab. BUM is a better player than M2K. You can quote me on that. Anyone who plays that well and is that successful consistently without the usual high tiers is better than those that barely win against them while using them.

If there was some dare it was because KDJ knew that BUM eats Fox personally and wanted to see the fight.

That being said, I also think that M2K has a better Marth than Fox, which is impressive because he plays Fox very well. This is because he likes to fall back on Fox's gayness and do the lame laser crap whereas Marth can't do that.
Marth has mad gayness on DK. Marth ***** DK's recovery hard.

Bum is not better than M2K dude, I don't think you realize just how good he is. Dude, not to be mean but even though bum is consistent, M2K is more consistent. He barely won against Bum? no, he deff won against bum in a convincing match. And it was as close as it was because DK does GOOOD against Fox. He gays fox mad hard with throws. If fox messes up drillshine at all, I.E. hit the shield early, miss L cancel, hit shield late, bad spacing, he gets grabbed and just gets messed up from there...you saw the vids yourself.
 

Venom NY

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
1,486
Location
Dionis S.W.A.T all day
If anyone here doubts that bum is good,think again i was there when he beat forward it was so beast i remember the combo he used to beat forward.It was Dair to charged punch everyone screamed cuz it was so beast and what a way to end a beast set.I was also there that week he beat PC in the finals of the weekly i was so surprised to hear that( i left early cuz i was tired).So yeah but is a real nice player overrall nice mindgames nice combos if he had a chance to play some of the other pros besides the ones hes beaten im sure he would do preety dam good.BUM FTW and showing that low tiers dont suck.
 

not_mouf

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Messages
71
getting grabs off for DK on fox isn't that hard. You saw BUM grab the crap out of m2k? SHIELDGRABS!!! shieldgrabs are so underrated man, your always in an advantage if you shieldgrab. and dude, 3 missed grabs are worth 1 successful grab for dk vs fox.



DK's grabs and chaingrabs/juggles are about even with marth's, if not a lil better/a lil worse.



Marth has mad gayness on DK. Marth ***** DK's recovery hard.

Bum is not better than M2K dude, I don't think you realize just how good he is. Dude, not to be mean but even though bum is consistent, M2K is more consistent. He barely won against Bum? no, he deff won against bum in a convincing match. And it was as close as it was because DK does GOOOD against Fox. He gays fox mad hard with throws. If fox messes up drillshine at all, I.E. hit the shield early, miss L cancel, hit shield late, bad spacing, he gets grabbed and just gets messed up from there...you saw the vids yourself.

basically most of this stuff is just plain wrong, i dont know what to tell u, i say itz hard to grab fox, u say itz easy. im sorry but this is just wrong man

You saw BUM grab the crap out of m2k? SHIELDGRABS!!!
1) bum is too good
2) shieldgrabbing is hard when fox l cancelz into shine into wavedash into grab/usmash to punish every failed SG attempt

and dude, 3 missed grabs are worth 1 successful grab for dk vs fox.
i would say no, they arent. if u miss a grab u usually get grabbed. what happenz when u get grabbed by fox? u get uairz...and dk has no good move to fight this off, his dair his horrible, his nair is horrible, and his bair wont hit below u. u basically get ***** for missing grabz

DK's grabs and chaingrabs/juggles are about even with marth's, if not a lil better/a lil worse.
i agree, except marth has much better grab range, is way faster, and is just a much better character in general and has way more movez that lead into grabz then dk will ever have. dk has amazing grab game on fox but remember u have to actually grab him first

Marth has mad gayness on DK. Marth ***** DK's recovery hard.
not really, if u go above marthz head he usually has no choice but to f smash u in tha opposite direction, and if u come from below and sweetspot then he cant hit u wit f smash or d tilt, plus dk has invincible armz during his up b. marth has a really hard time killing dk period

okay so ya in conclusion bum is an exceptional player of course and we shouldnt be using him or any of his matchez to decide how good dk does in certain matchupz. dk getz ***** by fox plain and simple, fox is too fast and hard to grab, and he has gayserz
 

BUM163

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
1,940
ightttt wanted 2 see if i can post.i can admit m2k is better than me.hiz skillz is impressive n he had 2 do wat he had 2 do 2 win.u have 2 play smart n if he was 2 go at me all the time he will eventually lose so he play hiz game smart.now about the advantage itz basically neutral.people say fox has an advanatage n people say dk has an advantage.one thing 4 sure itz sooooo hard 2 grab a fox on a high level...example pc or m2k.they l cancel to the shine is perfect so i can't even grab them 80 percent of the time killin my cargo combos.if anything dks worst threat is falco.lasers just completely messes him up.fox also killz anyone fast includin dk n dk 2 fox is the same thing.itz all the person skill not just the character.2 me itz not dk who is low tier or any character but the person on the controller,controllin the character.but the shine i can't lie is unfair lol but hey theres ways around it also.2 the people who think i'm better than m2k i'm not lol but hez not that much higher n he knowz that n i respect hiz game alot just like he respects me.anyone wanna train message me here or on aol=oni163
 

DK_4_LYFE

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 10, 2007
Messages
20
Location
Richmond, VA
thats cool that BUM made an appearance in a topic about. i just wanted to tell u i really like ur attitude cuz i hate ppl who are like "im the est" ut u kno wut ur doing by adminting whos better then u. ur my DK inspiration.
 

Cia

das kwl
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
8,231
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Top of the Tier List
OOOOHHHHH SHlT my ***** bum got his own appreciation thread lol good ****.

im not gonna lie Bum is one of the reasons i am where i am now. if it werent for him i'd still be wack. his gay tactics and ugly counterpick stages taught me a lot lol. i hate u bum.

nah but bum does eat marth. and fox. and falco. and shiek. and samus. and ganon. and captain. and peach. and GAW. and Pika. and pichu. and DK. and Bowser. and Doc. and Luigi. and Mario. and link. and y.link. and IC;s. and zelda. and jiggz. and mewtwo. and ima stop here cuz i just noticed i have no life.

and bum ur mewtwo and ness SUCK LOL nah im playin. but ur kirby does lmao.
LoLz. i bet you want an Ace_Marth appreciation thread..

oh and i'm gonna go Y.Link against Bum this weekend cuz the only way to beat him is to keep him away.. LoLz.. but i probably should not have said that here :lick:
 

Gimpyfish62

Banned (62 points)
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
12,297
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Edmonds, Washington
why? afraid you'll give away the "camp a lot" strategy with ylink? its basically the only effective thing link has, specially vs big fat ol dk XD
 

DK SmAsH

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
349
Location
Alexandria, VA
ightttt wanted 2 see if i can post.i can admit m2k is better than me.hiz skillz is impressive n he had 2 do wat he had 2 do 2 win.u have 2 play smart n if he was 2 go at me all the time he will eventually lose so he play hiz game smart.now about the advantage itz basically neutral.people say fox has an advanatage n people say dk has an advantage.one thing 4 sure itz sooooo hard 2 grab a fox on a high level...example pc or m2k.they l cancel to the shine is perfect so i can't even grab them 80 percent of the time killin my cargo combos.if anything dks worst threat is falco.lasers just completely messes him up.fox also killz anyone fast includin dk n dk 2 fox is the same thing.itz all the person skill not just the character.2 me itz not dk who is low tier or any character but the person on the controller,controllin the character.but the shine i can't lie is unfair lol but hey theres ways around it also.2 the people who think i'm better than m2k i'm not lol but hez not that much higher n he knowz that n i respect hiz game alot just like he respects me.anyone wanna train message me here or on aol=oni163
you're not kiddin...i was playin DOSV the other day and he has his shine on point like that..its just hard to get a move in you gotta up B that **** a lot lol...and donkey kick for pressure...dk is all about mind games and putting on the pressure...i play him like Blanka in CvS2...you gotta hold your ground and be intimidating...
 

Cia

das kwl
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
8,231
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Top of the Tier List
you're not kiddin...i was playin DOSV the other day and he has his shine on point like that..its just hard to get a move in you gotta up B that **** a lot lol...and donkey kick for pressure...dk is all about mind games and putting on the pressure...i play him like Blanka in CvS2...you gotta hold your ground and be intimidating...
LMFAO!!.. Blanka for Brawl..
 

Buttcrust

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
643
Location
Pickerington, OH
Just to clarify, I never said M2K should have gone Marth vs DK because that's just stupid when you have a Fox like his. I was just saying that I think his Marth's playstyle is better than his Fox's. His Fox would probably be more successful in tournaments though based soley on common match-ups.

But really, who cares who is better than who and whatever? Just have fun. At the last tournament I went to I went Jigglypuff a lot and I've only played her maybe two times ever before then. I just wanted to have some fun.

BUM is too awesome and I wish I didn't live in Ohio so I could actually see him play in person.

Much respect to BUM and M2K.
 

DK SmAsH

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
349
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Alexandria, VA
i agree with buttcrust! you gotta just have fun! thats y i play lots of levels and items! i have the most fun with DK and therefore i play best with him...**** the people who counter pick just to win you guys are assdicks...
 

Gimpyfish62

Banned (62 points)
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Jul 11, 2005
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That's why I feel the ruleset for the old BIN (best in new york) tournaments were the best.

U could only use one character the entire tournament.

It forced you to try and fight through tougher matchups
that sounds like a horrible ruleset that destroys most competitive strategy, being incredibly good at multiple characters shouldn't be banned because we want the random non top tier chars to have a chance XD
 

Buttcrust

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
643
Location
Pickerington, OH
That far from destroys competitive strategy. If anything it promotes it. That way picking instead of just changing characters to a counter pick you have to develope new gameplay startegies.

Ex: You play ICs. You are going through the tournament and you can't pick a character based only on the fact that it counters any one character then so you choose who you are best with. You come across a Peach. Oh no! What does any and every IC then do? Switch to Marth. Wow, real creative and strategic. Now you don't even have to have a strategy just a grab/f-smash happy Marth.

Now this is something that is planned for. The chance meeting of the Peach was just dumb luck for you because they or you could've lost before or the seeding could have been different etc. Thus you now have to figure out how to battle Peach with ICs.

Now you're thinking, "Well based on my programmed ways that are always right and must be so because MLG said so then the Peach player now has to learn to play against Marth."

Wrong. The Peach will likely suspect this and change themselves unless they feel Peach is still their best bet. They will merely wait and counter-pick you next match. Any motivation to get better in a certain match-up is either gone or dulled.

You have to play the match-up, and you know it will likely come up, so you have to develope strategies and techniques specifically for the fight as opposed to waiting to counterpick yourself.

Now your thoughts on saying that people that are incredibly good with many characters are better (and thus deserve the advantage of using them) than those who are good with 1 or 2 characters is correct though your reasoning makes no sense. By the way, this very thought is why I have always thought that Azen is better than Ken even though Ken wins more often. But it also goes that you don't want to be a jack-of-all trades, master of none as you will get nowhere. So like you said, they have to be quite good with the characters.

You say this gives the random low tiers a chance. This is completely illogical. If the random low tier has a chance then the other player will merely switch to one of the many characters that counter low tiers (the reason they are low tier for if they didn't have many bad match-ups they'd be really good to use). The old BIN style gives low tiers a chance as there is no counter picking and if you happen to come across a bad match-up you have to or already have, assuming this has happened before and you've worked on the match, developed a playstyle to help even the playing field.

This would open up the tournament scene to more players and thus more spectators and interest. We'll use good ol' BUM as an example.

BUM's DK is freakishly good. Now some of those Fox mains, being forced to stay Fox, may decide to switch mains to ICs, Sheik, perhaps Falco, or some other character as DKs now have a good chance against Foxes instead of relying on the counter pick crutch (for that really is all that it is) for a match-up. This promotes diversity of characters amoung tournament goers and now people who don't go to tournaments will because the scene is more open (diversity = fun and inviting because it is not monotonous and it give low tier players a better chance... plus exclusitivity breeds insecurities in others). I know this is the case because I have several friends who don't go to tournaments because of this very reason and it is a shame because they are very good but happen to use low tiers and it is a big reason why I don't travel far to go to tournaments.

Some may be thinking, "But then everyone will just main Space animals because they have the least number of bad match-ups."

Nope because if everyone is using the same character than one person with a main that counters them will easily win the tournament. "But then you just need to develope strategies to beat that character!" I know, read up a few paragraphs. But when others come along and that go well against both then so on and so on people will switch it up and we start arguing in circles!

All that counter picking is is a crutch for players to lean on so that they don't have to be as good with a character because they know they can counter pick.

The current style promotes diversity in the top tiers almost exclusively but the other spreads that around to all tiers a little more evenly.

That being said, the current style isn't bad. There's no reason the other is bad as well though. In fact I think tournaments should have different rule sets as this best promotes fun and competitivness as you are forced to constantly adapt and it changes things up a bit to keep it interesting. Obviously a series like MLG or a regional circuit can have the same rules to see who is best at a given style, but again there could be another series that changes it up every time.

MAIN POINT!!!!!! ----------> I think we, as players, should push the sport and try to open it up to new people and expand it and I think this type of diversity amoung tournaments would really help to accomplish this for the reasons mentioned above.
 

Scissors Sir

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
875
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Queens, NYC myspace.com/15453187
Never did I suggest this should be the only ruleset gimpyfish...

I just want more variety in rulesets...

Aside from just having low tier tournaments


What about the people who have really good strategies catered towards using items.

They shouldn't be able to have a shot at national recognition displaying that particular talent??

that would be like going to a fight night tournament and only being able to pick heavyweights.

What about the people who are really good at the game but care for the playstyle offered by welterweights...

They shouldn't be able to receive any recognition except at a side tournament?

It makes no sense.

There should be major tournaments that have different rulesets so that you are constantly challenging yourself.

Not just applauding when the same people keep taking your money.

Not to say that top players wouldn't excel in those other rulesets as well.

It's just something people should consider
 

Gkryptonite

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2006
Messages
346
Location
CA
Yes I could see it now, The Official DK Tournament
The only characters you can use is DK
May the best DK win
 

Gimpyfish62

Banned (62 points)
BRoomer
Joined
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Messages
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Edmonds, Washington
buttcrust that ruleset removes counterpicks. that is dumb. the end.

you worded it in a way to make your side look right, but you aren't right. it has nothing to do with "creativity" i could care less if ice climber mains switch characters vs peach mains, hey, i encourage it. thats counterpicking. it should exist, it does exist. it is how it should be.

destroying the concept of counterpicks is not a good thing.
 

DK SmAsH

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
349
Location
Alexandria, VA
OMG I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! like how most players ONLY play 3 levels! (except pokemon stadium you guys use a lot...good job) with NO items...that completely destroys random **** from happening! and thus you start sucking at adapting to a battle...random occurances improve your skill because you learn to adapt while playing! thats y so many players are technically great and still loose to players like bum, mew2king, jack, azen, all the time...its those mindgames! my next tourny im gonna have items and lots of stages...i played at a tournament in otakon one year that had items and more lvls and it was way more fun...they put those levels and items in the game for a reason...try them out! if you hate items then just put them on low...dont get me wrong i still love a good ol Final Dest no item match

but yeah i hate counter picking...ill never refuse a match-up...cause if i learn to play against a hard matchup..thats like playing with a handicap...it makes you get better...


sweet letz make fox playerz invincible
well first off DK can **** foxes...
 

RPK

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 28, 2005
Messages
1,710
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Santa Clara, California
OMG I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! like how most players ONLY play 3 levels! (except pokemon stadium you guys use a lot...good job)
. . . . . . That would be ******** to just stick to only a couple levels. . . .On the other hand people ban some of the levels because their character isnt good there like how I ban yoshi story x3 But Im gunna assume those 3 levels are Battle Field, FD, Pokemon stadium. -cant word correctly at the moment- What Im saying is what about counter picking stages? I personally love going Mute City and what Im gunna try out in my next tournament, Jungle Japes
 

El HP

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
523
Location
Managua, Nicaragua
I play DK from a long time ago, at first I thought he sucked but then I started to realize he was a very solid character and became one of my best I play with multiple characters.

As for BUM, man that's a great achievement placing forth with DK at a big tournament hopefully that will make DK get more respect, I would love to see some of the matches BUM had at MLG.

Now on fox and marth, fox has an advantage on DK he is hard to grab, he combos well, the reflector is very effective.

Marth vs DK is an even match IMO on big stages I think DK has an edge since marth has issues trying to kill DK while you can kill him easily.
 

C 3

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
579
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Dk was my questionable secondary, but after hearing the success that BUM pulled off, I am strongly considering him as a secondary. I had a lot of success with DK in SSB, so that always helps.
 

King Kong

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
1,451
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Brisbane, Australia
MAIN POINT!!!!!! ----------> I think we, as players, should push the sport and try to open it up to new people and expand it and I think this type of diversity amoung tournaments would really help to accomplish this for the reasons mentioned above.
Exactly.

We had a national tournament a couple weeks back (Ken won, what a prick) and we tried out a new ruleset. CAOTIC has tried the swiss system for a while in previous tournaments and this time he experimented some more with rules. Basically we played about 8 or 9 different people based on a ranking system.

The rules were:

2 Matches
4 Stock
Random stage (Each player is allowed to cancel once per game)
No character counterpicks, no stage counterpicks

You got .5 points for winning a game

As the rankings were updated, you played people who were around the same score as you.
The idea was to have the top 16 advance into a single elimination bracket. Unfortunatly we didnt have time. Thats the basic gist of the ruleset.

It changed the strategy and it was refreshing to not have to counterpick levels or stages, but simply relying on your skill to try and overcome whatever disadvantage.

It worked very well overall although a few improvements are needed. But it was a progression I felt. Challenging the current rules and trying new ways of playing lets you approach the game from a different angle.



peace out
 

Buttcrust

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
643
Location
Pickerington, OH
First off, I <3 KK.

Secondly,
Gimpy said:
you worded it in a way to make your side look right, but you aren't right. it has nothing to do with "creativity" i could care less if ice climber mains switch characters vs peach mains, hey, i encourage it. thats counterpicking. it should exist, it does exist. it is how it should be.

destroying the concept of counterpicks is not a good thing.
Why? Please, word it the way you like. Just give a good answer as to why counter picking should be required.

And I never said to remove it altogether but simply that there should be diversity for the good of the game. I do not want to completely re-vamp the system because it is good and it does work for many. But why not expand on it?
 
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