TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
What do you do against them little kids, Lucas and Ness? Lucas especially, he's got dirty tricks like PK fire, PK fire, and PK fire, also has other good attacks!
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The Bowser Mathcup's Thread (Post here to Discuss Specifics)
- Thread starter KevinM
- Start date
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
For Lucas, dodge the PK fire, watch out for nair (it's too good) and don't get grabbed at ~150%. (dthrow kills) Lucas's main weakness is range, so space him with ftilt when he approaches. As he's recovering, attack his PK Thunder to negate it and watch him plummet to his doom.
I've never played a Ness before so I have no idea on that one.
I've never played a Ness before so I have no idea on that one.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Sorry for the double post, but I've made a list of the character fights I know, and I'm putting what works for me into them. (Or what doesn't work for me.) I hope this helps.
Bowser vs. Ike
This is the one fight where Ike kills later than his opponent most of the time. This fight is all about timing and spacing. Ike should be trying to space with fairs or get to you with a >B/<B until you are close, not to mention that out of >B/<B his jabs come out lightning fast. If he's spacing with fairs, airdodge through one and as you land you are free to grab, klaw, and jab before his sheild goes up. (Note: Ftilt and dtilt can be blocked if they sheild ASAP) Watch out for the deceiving range of his fsmash, and NEVER approach from above. Ike's uair WILL KILL AS FAST AS YOURS DOES! Not to mention the fact that his usmash has more range than...Pretty much every attack in the game...
Ike may be a slow character, but he does have a few quick attacks. His jab combo is VERY fast, you WILL get hit by it unless you space perfectly. It does about 16% total fresh, and Ike can jab-cancel out of the first or second hit into a grab, or another jab combo. Another hit you will get hit by unless you see it coming is bair...That move is fast, and it will kill you at around 120%, maybe 140% if your DI is amazing. (Not taking into consideration Ike bairing you on the right side or levels like Japes and hitting you to the left) Ike's final quick attack is his utilt. It's not as good, IMO, as his other two quick attacks but remember, Bowser hates being above Ike. As a quick note, since Bowser is so huge, Ike's can hit Bowser through some platforms. Video proof here!!!!!
Now, for your offensive game...If the Ike is not 100% on his DI, at 0% you can combo the Flying Slam into fair, uair (if they jump) or another Flying Slam...Yes, I've done it, and yes, most Ikes will not see it coming unless they have Bowser practice. Flame is good to interrupt attacks and recovery, but not as an approach...Ike's range is far too much for a PoF to work at all. If Ike is charging his <B/>B off the level to recover, jump off the stages and let him hit you. His movement will stop and he will be gimped at...any % you can get him at.
So, basically, don't approach from above, SPACE, don't let his slow fool you, and watch out for his fast moves.
Bowser vs. Pikachu
Pikachu is quick, Pikachu is small, and Pikachu can kill. Those three factors together scares any Bowser out there. Pikachu dies much faster than Ike (From the explosion, not from a gimp) and kills must later than Ike (Again, from the explosion not from a gimp). With that said, Pikachu is MUCH HARDER than Ike due to his speed and his small size. His attacks come out fast, fair and bair have multiple hits that lock you in and rack not damage, (not to mention most of the time he gets in enough hits with them to make his moves "fresh" again) nair kills, dsmash is hard to DI out of with Bowser being so huge, and thunder will own you if you do not dodge it perfectly...And he has a CG up to...Something like ~30% I believe. Pika's thunder jolt (neutral B) kills your recovery, or your platform game...Or most things...So dodge them, or cancel them with a well place jab, ftilt, dtilt or fair. (Not sure if fair works, but I think it does.)
Pikachu's size really kills Bowser's approach. You cannot fair fast enough for it to auto-cancel, as it will not connect, and Pikachu is free to do anything. Klaw is useful since most enemies try to sheild Bowser's attacks and use his lag against him. Sadly, you cannot combo out of Flying Slam against this little mouse though...
To escape Pikachu's dsmash, which now reminds me of the whorenado, is do DI straight up...With many characters you can DI with a variation of left or right along with the needed up, but Bowser is too huge to escape that thing even around 100% without 100% DI up. After that, if you are high enough, many Pikachu users will try to follow up with a thunder to KO you at the top. (At irritatingly low %...Something like 70% killed me once.) In order to dodge this, hold your DI in a certain direction, and notice where Pikachu actually used the attack. If it's right where you are, just dode and keep holding the direction you're DIing. If it's in front of you, change your DI, then airdodge. If it's behind you, don't bother airdodging. Just to let everybody here know, if Pikachu is hit with his thunder the attack obviously hits around him as well, but in this game his lag when hit with the thunder is so small, it's as if he can practically attack out of it, so be wary.
With all of these things in Pikachu's favor, this match seems almsot impossible for Bowser...And yet that is not so. Pikachu dies from uair around 70%, bair from around 75%, (if hit near and edge, towards the level boundary closest) fsmash at about 70%, (uncharged) and d-tilt from about 60%. (As an edgeguard) Pikachu cannot kill you nearly as quickly, save thunder while you're high above, or nair when you're off the stage, (to gimp) so that's always a plus for you. Watch out for those quick hits, and get in a few of your own, and you should be fine.
So, basically, avoid his electricity, don't mess up DI, and hit him a few times and you should be fine.
Bowser vs. Kirby
Throw combo, throw combo, throw combo. Yeah, that's most of Kirby's game right there. Kirby is back, (now in pog form) and almost on par with his SSB64 days. His fsmash has a deceptive range, his hammer KOs like there's no tomorrow, and his rock got many buffs. (puffs or air like Yoshi's Ground Pound, much better killing potential, and less lag) If Bowser had a good dair/vB to approach with, Kirby would be a lot easier, as his uair, utilt, and usmash don't have much priority...Sadly, only stupid opponents (or those recklessly charging a smash attack) will be hit by the Bowser Bomb. (unless used on the ground for MINDGAMES!!!!!!!!!!
) KevinM pointed out that nair is useful in this situation due to it's high priority. Thanks!
Kirby is going to try to grab you, and he is going to try to get ana amazing combo on you, and odds are if you do not know how to DI it he will. Kirby's dthrow will probably be followed by a utilt, and after the first one you can escape if you DI up the entire time and mash jump after the first hit. Kirby's fthrow will be followed by a uair, which can also be escaped after the first hit by DIing up and away and mashing jump. Beware Kirby's air hammer in this game, as it hits twice. (you will probably forget at least one time) On the ground, Kirby's hammer takes the same amount of time, and does the same damage as an uncharged fsmash from Bowser, and it has a little more range in front of him, so beware. If Kirby comes at you while you're off of the level...I'm sorry, but he's going to dair you...And you are going to die, unless you start a fortress before his dair gets out and you hit him with it. If Kirby is spamming Final Cutter when you're far away, just jump over it...Kirby isn't good when you are above him, remember?
Kirby can be scary to approach and hard to predict, but there are a few things that normally work. Empty retreating sh to ftilt works on those overly aggressive players. SH fair into a Kirby's sheild a few times to make him get used to it, and then start empty SHing in place to a ftilt will get him confused. Bowser's infinite jump is actually useful against Kirby since, once again, Kirby cannot really deal with enemies above him...Mix this up with actually grabbing in with the Klaw, or spamming a wall of fairs/bairs and you've got a scared opponent...Especially if they do not have a lot of Bowser practice. (which many people don't)
So, basically, watch for throws, jump a lot, mix up your approach a lot, watch out for the hammer, and don't get spiked.
Hope this helped for these 3 matches. Please tell me anything I got wrong, and I will quickly amend it. As I get more, in depth, character training I will be posting more walls of text about those characters as well.
Bowser vs. Ike
This is the one fight where Ike kills later than his opponent most of the time. This fight is all about timing and spacing. Ike should be trying to space with fairs or get to you with a >B/<B until you are close, not to mention that out of >B/<B his jabs come out lightning fast. If he's spacing with fairs, airdodge through one and as you land you are free to grab, klaw, and jab before his sheild goes up. (Note: Ftilt and dtilt can be blocked if they sheild ASAP) Watch out for the deceiving range of his fsmash, and NEVER approach from above. Ike's uair WILL KILL AS FAST AS YOURS DOES! Not to mention the fact that his usmash has more range than...Pretty much every attack in the game...
Ike may be a slow character, but he does have a few quick attacks. His jab combo is VERY fast, you WILL get hit by it unless you space perfectly. It does about 16% total fresh, and Ike can jab-cancel out of the first or second hit into a grab, or another jab combo. Another hit you will get hit by unless you see it coming is bair...That move is fast, and it will kill you at around 120%, maybe 140% if your DI is amazing. (Not taking into consideration Ike bairing you on the right side or levels like Japes and hitting you to the left) Ike's final quick attack is his utilt. It's not as good, IMO, as his other two quick attacks but remember, Bowser hates being above Ike. As a quick note, since Bowser is so huge, Ike's can hit Bowser through some platforms. Video proof here!!!!!
Now, for your offensive game...If the Ike is not 100% on his DI, at 0% you can combo the Flying Slam into fair, uair (if they jump) or another Flying Slam...Yes, I've done it, and yes, most Ikes will not see it coming unless they have Bowser practice. Flame is good to interrupt attacks and recovery, but not as an approach...Ike's range is far too much for a PoF to work at all. If Ike is charging his <B/>B off the level to recover, jump off the stages and let him hit you. His movement will stop and he will be gimped at...any % you can get him at.
So, basically, don't approach from above, SPACE, don't let his slow fool you, and watch out for his fast moves.
Bowser vs. Pikachu
Pikachu is quick, Pikachu is small, and Pikachu can kill. Those three factors together scares any Bowser out there. Pikachu dies much faster than Ike (From the explosion, not from a gimp) and kills must later than Ike (Again, from the explosion not from a gimp). With that said, Pikachu is MUCH HARDER than Ike due to his speed and his small size. His attacks come out fast, fair and bair have multiple hits that lock you in and rack not damage, (not to mention most of the time he gets in enough hits with them to make his moves "fresh" again) nair kills, dsmash is hard to DI out of with Bowser being so huge, and thunder will own you if you do not dodge it perfectly...And he has a CG up to...Something like ~30% I believe. Pika's thunder jolt (neutral B) kills your recovery, or your platform game...Or most things...So dodge them, or cancel them with a well place jab, ftilt, dtilt or fair. (Not sure if fair works, but I think it does.)
Pikachu's size really kills Bowser's approach. You cannot fair fast enough for it to auto-cancel, as it will not connect, and Pikachu is free to do anything. Klaw is useful since most enemies try to sheild Bowser's attacks and use his lag against him. Sadly, you cannot combo out of Flying Slam against this little mouse though...
To escape Pikachu's dsmash, which now reminds me of the whorenado, is do DI straight up...With many characters you can DI with a variation of left or right along with the needed up, but Bowser is too huge to escape that thing even around 100% without 100% DI up. After that, if you are high enough, many Pikachu users will try to follow up with a thunder to KO you at the top. (At irritatingly low %...Something like 70% killed me once.) In order to dodge this, hold your DI in a certain direction, and notice where Pikachu actually used the attack. If it's right where you are, just dode and keep holding the direction you're DIing. If it's in front of you, change your DI, then airdodge. If it's behind you, don't bother airdodging. Just to let everybody here know, if Pikachu is hit with his thunder the attack obviously hits around him as well, but in this game his lag when hit with the thunder is so small, it's as if he can practically attack out of it, so be wary.
With all of these things in Pikachu's favor, this match seems almsot impossible for Bowser...And yet that is not so. Pikachu dies from uair around 70%, bair from around 75%, (if hit near and edge, towards the level boundary closest) fsmash at about 70%, (uncharged) and d-tilt from about 60%. (As an edgeguard) Pikachu cannot kill you nearly as quickly, save thunder while you're high above, or nair when you're off the stage, (to gimp) so that's always a plus for you. Watch out for those quick hits, and get in a few of your own, and you should be fine.
So, basically, avoid his electricity, don't mess up DI, and hit him a few times and you should be fine.
Bowser vs. Kirby
Throw combo, throw combo, throw combo. Yeah, that's most of Kirby's game right there. Kirby is back, (now in pog form) and almost on par with his SSB64 days. His fsmash has a deceptive range, his hammer KOs like there's no tomorrow, and his rock got many buffs. (puffs or air like Yoshi's Ground Pound, much better killing potential, and less lag) If Bowser had a good dair/vB to approach with, Kirby would be a lot easier, as his uair, utilt, and usmash don't have much priority...Sadly, only stupid opponents (or those recklessly charging a smash attack) will be hit by the Bowser Bomb. (unless used on the ground for MINDGAMES!!!!!!!!!!
) KevinM pointed out that nair is useful in this situation due to it's high priority. Thanks!Kirby is going to try to grab you, and he is going to try to get ana amazing combo on you, and odds are if you do not know how to DI it he will. Kirby's dthrow will probably be followed by a utilt, and after the first one you can escape if you DI up the entire time and mash jump after the first hit. Kirby's fthrow will be followed by a uair, which can also be escaped after the first hit by DIing up and away and mashing jump. Beware Kirby's air hammer in this game, as it hits twice. (you will probably forget at least one time) On the ground, Kirby's hammer takes the same amount of time, and does the same damage as an uncharged fsmash from Bowser, and it has a little more range in front of him, so beware. If Kirby comes at you while you're off of the level...I'm sorry, but he's going to dair you...And you are going to die, unless you start a fortress before his dair gets out and you hit him with it. If Kirby is spamming Final Cutter when you're far away, just jump over it...Kirby isn't good when you are above him, remember?
Kirby can be scary to approach and hard to predict, but there are a few things that normally work. Empty retreating sh to ftilt works on those overly aggressive players. SH fair into a Kirby's sheild a few times to make him get used to it, and then start empty SHing in place to a ftilt will get him confused. Bowser's infinite jump is actually useful against Kirby since, once again, Kirby cannot really deal with enemies above him...Mix this up with actually grabbing in with the Klaw, or spamming a wall of fairs/bairs and you've got a scared opponent...Especially if they do not have a lot of Bowser practice. (which many people don't)
So, basically, watch for throws, jump a lot, mix up your approach a lot, watch out for the hammer, and don't get spiked.
Hope this helped for these 3 matches. Please tell me anything I got wrong, and I will quickly amend it. As I get more, in depth, character training I will be posting more walls of text about those characters as well.
I'd like to point out Nicholas that Nair over Kirby is really effective due to its priority.
Thanks for the info though :D
Thanks for the info though :D
Nakamaru
Smash Master
Ok, other than just get utterly butt *****. What are some good tips for fighting Meta. He is the only character im really having trouble with. -.-
IvanEva
Smash Ace
I actually really like Bowser...
True story: since everybody was claiming that their characters have an advantage over Bowser I decided to pick Bowser up as a character. Well, it was actually more like I decided to pick him up to make fun of the people I played against (how I was "so much better than them that I'll reduce myself to using Bowser"). You know what happened next? My Bowser started kicking ***. I didn't think that he could but there he was, out ranging Game and Watches, Lucarios, Wolfs... More than winning, I found Bowser to be the single most FUN character to play as. There's something inherently fun about playing as a big dragon turtle thingy. My anti-Bowser sentiments were largely remnants from Melee as well as not having played/played against a Bowser. Bowser is now, seriously, my secondary character behind my main, Lucas.
HOWEVER, there are a few things that must be said concerning your post. First of all, with the exception of Lucas' advantage over Bowser, all of the other Bowser match-ups have been taken from other people, Bowser thread posters included. I, personally, didn't make them up. Heck, just take a look at this thread, especially that one about how Bowser fares against Kirby, Ike, and Pikachu. Do they seem positive? Hardly. I love Bowser now and I really hope that the Brawl community can agree that Bowser has an advantage over a bunch of characters. Right now, it sure doesn't look like that's going to happen.
Secondly, my chart is labeled with a 'BETA' version tag because it's in DEVELOPMENT, using the community's input. It's very much a work in progress. People post match-ups that they're confident in and I then collect that data and put it in the chart. Disagreements are marked as such. If you disagree with a match-up, go and post (with solid reasons). I mean, if something is CLEARLY wrong than it wouldn't be just the Bowser players (player?) that would see it. Where are the Bowser pros and their superior match-up stats? It's almost universally accepted in all of the other character threads that Bowser is at a disadvantage to just about everyone. He's the opposite of Marth: he's not complete garbage compared to everbody but he's still, even if it's very slightly, at a disadvantage. I'll be glad to change that when it comes up but good luck convincing people that Bowser has an advantage against [insert just about anybody].
Heh, I found this amusing.
True story: since everybody was claiming that their characters have an advantage over Bowser I decided to pick Bowser up as a character. Well, it was actually more like I decided to pick him up to make fun of the people I played against (how I was "so much better than them that I'll reduce myself to using Bowser"). You know what happened next? My Bowser started kicking ***. I didn't think that he could but there he was, out ranging Game and Watches, Lucarios, Wolfs... More than winning, I found Bowser to be the single most FUN character to play as. There's something inherently fun about playing as a big dragon turtle thingy. My anti-Bowser sentiments were largely remnants from Melee as well as not having played/played against a Bowser. Bowser is now, seriously, my secondary character behind my main, Lucas.
HOWEVER, there are a few things that must be said concerning your post. First of all, with the exception of Lucas' advantage over Bowser, all of the other Bowser match-ups have been taken from other people, Bowser thread posters included. I, personally, didn't make them up. Heck, just take a look at this thread, especially that one about how Bowser fares against Kirby, Ike, and Pikachu. Do they seem positive? Hardly. I love Bowser now and I really hope that the Brawl community can agree that Bowser has an advantage over a bunch of characters. Right now, it sure doesn't look like that's going to happen.
Secondly, my chart is labeled with a 'BETA' version tag because it's in DEVELOPMENT, using the community's input. It's very much a work in progress. People post match-ups that they're confident in and I then collect that data and put it in the chart. Disagreements are marked as such. If you disagree with a match-up, go and post (with solid reasons). I mean, if something is CLEARLY wrong than it wouldn't be just the Bowser players (player?) that would see it. Where are the Bowser pros and their superior match-up stats? It's almost universally accepted in all of the other character threads that Bowser is at a disadvantage to just about everyone. He's the opposite of Marth: he's not complete garbage compared to everbody but he's still, even if it's very slightly, at a disadvantage. I'll be glad to change that when it comes up but good luck convincing people that Bowser has an advantage against [insert just about anybody].
Ivan though i appreciate what you posted using what one poster said about three different match-ups as the basis of your proof, as for me i disagree that Kirby is a terrible match-up for Bowser, i'd say its around even. So using one poster as an example for a match-up is iffy.
Thanks for trying to clear up your post though.
Thanks for trying to clear up your post though.
Chrono Centaur
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2008
- Messages
- 137
Anyone with a half-decent projectile can camp in this game, and that ruins Bowser completely. =/ You have to control the battle against campers like that.
DwaynBibad
Smash Cadet
IvanEva, I would be happy if you did change your ways because I've seen your thread and there was a lot of Bowser bashing in it.
And the fact that it's in beta was doesn't justify there being wildly inaccurate data on there. The fact that it was in beta would indicate that the chart is subject to changes when the metagame changes, which would also mean that, currently the chart is accurate for the current metagame.
IT IS NOT, and it's really a shame because it's clear you spend a lot of time and effort making something that nobody is gonna take seriously. At least not us Bowser players.
I'm not trying to sound nasty, or discourage your work in any way. You do it the best way you know how, and the pro Bowser players will discuss the real match ups (matchcups?) here. The biggest thing that I would definitely agree on is that there aren't enough pro Bowser players contributing to this thread, or possibly they are contributing their Bowser info somewhere else. Maybe we need a sticky to highlight this very important issue?
As a fairly new player I rely on Smashboards info to improve my game, so that me and other new players can do well competitively. That's why I feel the need to speak up when I see something that's clearly misleading. I hope you understand.
Edit: Here's an example of what I mean by beta not having to be completely inaccurate.
This is Tier List thread authored by Corner-Trap of Shoryuken forums.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409
I know a tier list is different from a match up chart, but the point I'm making is that this tier list is pretty accurate, although definitely not complete. At worse some characters should either move up a tier or down a tier, however this reflects the current metagame well, and all the explanations for their standings are listed in detail under spoiler tags (to prevent clutter) which is probably the most important factor in an indevelopment list imo.
And the fact that it's in beta was doesn't justify there being wildly inaccurate data on there. The fact that it was in beta would indicate that the chart is subject to changes when the metagame changes, which would also mean that, currently the chart is accurate for the current metagame.
IT IS NOT, and it's really a shame because it's clear you spend a lot of time and effort making something that nobody is gonna take seriously. At least not us Bowser players.
I'm not trying to sound nasty, or discourage your work in any way. You do it the best way you know how, and the pro Bowser players will discuss the real match ups (matchcups?) here. The biggest thing that I would definitely agree on is that there aren't enough pro Bowser players contributing to this thread, or possibly they are contributing their Bowser info somewhere else. Maybe we need a sticky to highlight this very important issue?
As a fairly new player I rely on Smashboards info to improve my game, so that me and other new players can do well competitively. That's why I feel the need to speak up when I see something that's clearly misleading. I hope you understand.
Edit: Here's an example of what I mean by beta not having to be completely inaccurate.
This is Tier List thread authored by Corner-Trap of Shoryuken forums.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409
I know a tier list is different from a match up chart, but the point I'm making is that this tier list is pretty accurate, although definitely not complete. At worse some characters should either move up a tier or down a tier, however this reflects the current metagame well, and all the explanations for their standings are listed in detail under spoiler tags (to prevent clutter) which is probably the most important factor in an indevelopment list imo.
TakDragon7
Smash Lord
It's good to talk about tactics and whatnot here because everyone can actually learn something and be able to pull it off or whatever.
I have never contributed any Bowser info before. I'm really good with him so I could at least. I'm kinda of a shy person but I'm getting to the point where I'm getting over it.
@LordKagoto: Link?! HAH! He's easy for me to take on. ^..^ Samus is the one who can give trouble for Bowser.
I have never contributed any Bowser info before. I'm really good with him so I could at least. I'm kinda of a shy person but I'm getting to the point where I'm getting over it.
@LordKagoto: Link?! HAH! He's easy for me to take on. ^..^ Samus is the one who can give trouble for Bowser.
Jewbacabra
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2008
- Messages
- 44
If you're against any ranged character, just use a well timed poke (Ftilt).
The Ftilt can stop the world from hitting bowser.
ALL HAIL THE FTILT
The Ftilt can stop the world from hitting bowser.
ALL HAIL THE FTILT
Best post ever
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
While I wish this was the case, the timing becomes so tricky that there's really no point in trying against most projectile spammers.
Pit, the Links and Space Furries, for example, can endlessly spam projectiles at you, making it impossible to advance, since every time Bowser ftilts a projectile, he clashes and is pushed back somewhat.
It's basically an invitation to be damaged, which is a shame, because Bowser could badly use some means of advancing upon projectile spammers without having 50% added to him.
IvanEva
Smash Ace
Sonic vs. Bowser. I see it as equal but most seem to see Sonic and his punishing speed to have the advantage. I see it as Bowser being the one who would be doing the punishing since he's too slow to be on the offensive against Sonic. Agree/disagree?
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
I wish I could help you there, but the only Sonic player I regularly face is so lagged that I'm not willing to suggest anything about our matches.
I will say this, though: Sonic is incredibly mobile horizontally, but once it's a game in the air, it's a different story.
Sonic's primary method of attack will always be to charge at you, try to knock you in the air and follow with a jumping attack which he hopes to catch you in. That said, if you can get the timing down for catching Sonic in this (as I've seen Gimpy do) you can nail the little b@stard most every time with a klaw. However, when lag comes into the picture, it becomes more difficult to time.
Honestly, I'd recommend keeping pressure on Sonic: he has no projectiles so he can't camp, but putting the pressure on him is likely something most Sonic players don't deal with so it would be my best recommendation to put them off their game.
I will say this, though: Sonic is incredibly mobile horizontally, but once it's a game in the air, it's a different story.
Sonic's primary method of attack will always be to charge at you, try to knock you in the air and follow with a jumping attack which he hopes to catch you in. That said, if you can get the timing down for catching Sonic in this (as I've seen Gimpy do) you can nail the little b@stard most every time with a klaw. However, when lag comes into the picture, it becomes more difficult to time.
Honestly, I'd recommend keeping pressure on Sonic: he has no projectiles so he can't camp, but putting the pressure on him is likely something most Sonic players don't deal with so it would be my best recommendation to put them off their game.
Popertop
Smash Champion
This is not the case AT ALL.
Bowser's flame cancel's bow and boomerang.
Not just Link's, but Toon Link's as well.
SH Flame Breath FTW!
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Pikachu (aka "The 'Chu", "Campachu", "The Yellow Rat" and "The Cheat")
Small, quick and irritating, Pikachu can be a headache for poor ol' Bowser in many, many ways. Thankfully, he has a limited number of tricks and even the most hyperactive Pikachu players leave themselves vulnerable. Plus, Pikachu tends to have a hard time killing Bowser until near 150%, meaning Bowser gets far more chances to screw up than he would with a killer like Ike.
-FIRST AND FOREMOST, Pikachu's down smash is a nightmare. It's impossible to DI out of, has decent damage and potential killing power, happens instantaneously, and is difficult to punish unless you time it JUST right. Worst of all, the move pops you into the air which sets you up for a number of other evil Chu tricks. Be very wary of occupying the same space as Pikachu.
-Pikachu, despite having only one projectile, is a mad spammer. Chu players will typically spam the same move over and over and over again, so long as it seems to be working against you. Don't let this piss you off to the point that you're baited into a down smash. Just shield or jump over the bouncing lightning and expect that Pikachu will change his tactics as soon as you close in.
-Approaching with a PoF generally works, since most Pikachu players expect that any player leaping at them will be caught in their down smash. Bathe the little rat in flame, but don't overspam fire breath. If the Chu becomes aware of the tactic, he'll roll under you on the way down and punish with a down smash.
-Pikachu has two methods of recovery. The first is the quick attack which causes him to zip twice through the air quickly. The second is his charged headbutt, which is surprisingly powerful if and when it hits you. The headbutt, however, is a golden punishment opportunity if you can be in the right place. It's semi-predictable and has a lag time afterwards. If you can spot dodge and let the Chu land at your feet, down smash.
-Although the quick attack is hard to predict, you can sometimes catch a Chu player with a Bair off the ledge as he tries to recover. Bowser's Bair has the advantage of having a long hitbox duration, meaning that a Chu trying to pass through you will generally be hit by it if it's timed correctly.
-Pikachu's ground game is pretty strong, with the bouncing lightning neutral B and the Fsmash being a spark with solid range and a disjointed hitbox. As Bowser's shield diminishes, his feet become vulnerable first and this opens him to attack via Fsmash and Dsmash from the Chu.
-Shieldgrab or fortress whenever he gets close. A good Pikachu player will keep the pressure on you and likely aerial into your shield very often. Whenever this happens, you need to counter quickly. If he falls in front, shieldgrab. Behind, fortress and move away. This is vital because Pikachu has the irritating ability to land after some aerials and immediately Dsmash, thus letting him land is often a bad idea.
-Pikachu's Down+B is one of his best killing and ledgeguard moves and will probably cause you plenty of headaches. Don't try to air dodge through it: the move has enough duration that it will hit you afterwards regardless. Instead, DI to the side of it whenever possible, even on the ledge. It's possible to airdodge and DI through it in some cases, but I'd only advise this as a last resort.
-Pikachu will often try to ledgeguard you with Down+B, using thunder to hit you if you try to approach from above and can use the splash effect from his body when trying to recover from the middle. The only way around this is to come in VERY low and grab the ledge from below with a fortress. Thankfully, the thunder doesn't effect below the Chu's body.
-The other ledgeguard to watch out for is a B/Nair. Dodge through this and go for the ledge, or if you're looking to end the match, Koopa klaw him and take him down with you. If you're high damage and he isn't and you have at least a stock left, Koopa Klaw him anyway. He won't be able to DI back to the ledge and you'll cost him a stock without needing to damage him.
-Air mindgames will work well against a Campachu. Jump at him like you're going for a Fair, then either jump back or fall short and PoF him. He'll probably react with a Dsmash which you'd normally be caught in.
-One of the Chu's favorite tricks is to Down+B while moving horizontally through the air. This causes the lightning to hit the location where he started the move instead of hitting him. He can use this to create a temporary wall between you and him, but if you can wind up on his side of the wall, you have a golden opportunity to punish. I once ended a match when a zealous Pikachu pulled this move while I was below him. I moved quickly to his side of the lightning, leapt up and Uaired him off the top of the screen. This is probably Pikachu's most punishable move if he messes it up and you make it onto his side of the lightning: don't waste the chance.
Small, quick and irritating, Pikachu can be a headache for poor ol' Bowser in many, many ways. Thankfully, he has a limited number of tricks and even the most hyperactive Pikachu players leave themselves vulnerable. Plus, Pikachu tends to have a hard time killing Bowser until near 150%, meaning Bowser gets far more chances to screw up than he would with a killer like Ike.
-FIRST AND FOREMOST, Pikachu's down smash is a nightmare. It's impossible to DI out of, has decent damage and potential killing power, happens instantaneously, and is difficult to punish unless you time it JUST right. Worst of all, the move pops you into the air which sets you up for a number of other evil Chu tricks. Be very wary of occupying the same space as Pikachu.
-Pikachu, despite having only one projectile, is a mad spammer. Chu players will typically spam the same move over and over and over again, so long as it seems to be working against you. Don't let this piss you off to the point that you're baited into a down smash. Just shield or jump over the bouncing lightning and expect that Pikachu will change his tactics as soon as you close in.
-Approaching with a PoF generally works, since most Pikachu players expect that any player leaping at them will be caught in their down smash. Bathe the little rat in flame, but don't overspam fire breath. If the Chu becomes aware of the tactic, he'll roll under you on the way down and punish with a down smash.
-Pikachu has two methods of recovery. The first is the quick attack which causes him to zip twice through the air quickly. The second is his charged headbutt, which is surprisingly powerful if and when it hits you. The headbutt, however, is a golden punishment opportunity if you can be in the right place. It's semi-predictable and has a lag time afterwards. If you can spot dodge and let the Chu land at your feet, down smash.
-Although the quick attack is hard to predict, you can sometimes catch a Chu player with a Bair off the ledge as he tries to recover. Bowser's Bair has the advantage of having a long hitbox duration, meaning that a Chu trying to pass through you will generally be hit by it if it's timed correctly.
-Pikachu's ground game is pretty strong, with the bouncing lightning neutral B and the Fsmash being a spark with solid range and a disjointed hitbox. As Bowser's shield diminishes, his feet become vulnerable first and this opens him to attack via Fsmash and Dsmash from the Chu.
-Shieldgrab or fortress whenever he gets close. A good Pikachu player will keep the pressure on you and likely aerial into your shield very often. Whenever this happens, you need to counter quickly. If he falls in front, shieldgrab. Behind, fortress and move away. This is vital because Pikachu has the irritating ability to land after some aerials and immediately Dsmash, thus letting him land is often a bad idea.
-Pikachu's Down+B is one of his best killing and ledgeguard moves and will probably cause you plenty of headaches. Don't try to air dodge through it: the move has enough duration that it will hit you afterwards regardless. Instead, DI to the side of it whenever possible, even on the ledge. It's possible to airdodge and DI through it in some cases, but I'd only advise this as a last resort.
-Pikachu will often try to ledgeguard you with Down+B, using thunder to hit you if you try to approach from above and can use the splash effect from his body when trying to recover from the middle. The only way around this is to come in VERY low and grab the ledge from below with a fortress. Thankfully, the thunder doesn't effect below the Chu's body.
-The other ledgeguard to watch out for is a B/Nair. Dodge through this and go for the ledge, or if you're looking to end the match, Koopa klaw him and take him down with you. If you're high damage and he isn't and you have at least a stock left, Koopa Klaw him anyway. He won't be able to DI back to the ledge and you'll cost him a stock without needing to damage him.
-Air mindgames will work well against a Campachu. Jump at him like you're going for a Fair, then either jump back or fall short and PoF him. He'll probably react with a Dsmash which you'd normally be caught in.
-One of the Chu's favorite tricks is to Down+B while moving horizontally through the air. This causes the lightning to hit the location where he started the move instead of hitting him. He can use this to create a temporary wall between you and him, but if you can wind up on his side of the wall, you have a golden opportunity to punish. I once ended a match when a zealous Pikachu pulled this move while I was below him. I moved quickly to his side of the lightning, leapt up and Uaired him off the top of the screen. This is probably Pikachu's most punishable move if he messes it up and you make it onto his side of the lightning: don't waste the chance.
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
While this is true, fire breath isn't the solve all, end all that it could be.
First of all, if your match has any lag to it, by the time you hit B to fire breath after seeing Link go for a projectile, it's already too late.
Second, Link can spam endlessly and your FB not only diminishes but also has an ending lag as well. A smart Link will just charge an arrow and wait until your FB diminishes to the point where the arrow will go through it.
The real problem with FB is that it takes so long to start and end that using it when you haven't caught an enemy in it is generally invitation to punishment.
Bowser will always lose the projectile spamming game. Your only hope is to mind game in the air: leap at them and act like you're going to attack but then 2nd jump the other way, and see if they react. If they don't, Klaw them. If they do, wait until they're done with whatever move they were using and Klaw them anyway.
A2ZOMG
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Link isn't better than Bowser, but I think Link has the advantage. Toon Link? Yeah, that one sucks. As for Link...
You may praise Bowser's F-tilt for stopping everything, but Link's Clawshot does this too, and particularly well against Bowser who is really really tall, so he's easily hit by that. You can't punish it easily either, since it's completely lagless.
Bombs are nasty. Link's Bombs send you really high, and Bowser never wants to be directly above anyone. Especially not someone like Link. Link's sword beats most things above him, and his U-air and U-smash last forever, so if he's positioned right they aren't easy to dodge.
Bowser's recovery, thanks to being really predictable, is also fairly easy bait for the Gale Boomerang gimp or a D-air. Watch out for that.
You may praise Bowser's F-tilt for stopping everything, but Link's Clawshot does this too, and particularly well against Bowser who is really really tall, so he's easily hit by that. You can't punish it easily either, since it's completely lagless.
Bombs are nasty. Link's Bombs send you really high, and Bowser never wants to be directly above anyone. Especially not someone like Link. Link's sword beats most things above him, and his U-air and U-smash last forever, so if he's positioned right they aren't easy to dodge.
Bowser's recovery, thanks to being really predictable, is also fairly easy bait for the Gale Boomerang gimp or a D-air. Watch out for that.
J4pu
Smash Champion
you silly, dinosaurs/turtle things can't do math
S_B
Too Drunk to Smash
Yes, Toon Link is Bowser's worst god**** nightmare. All the power of Link but twice as fast and half the hittable size.
I should also add that TLink is ridiculously heavy for his size and speed.
Buuman
Smash Ace
Game and Watch-Discuss..He has nasty combo ability...disjointed hitboxes..quick arials..amazing recovery, and ***** bowser edge guard wise.
Inferno_blaze
Smash Lord
G&W is easily MY worst matchup, he's got a crazy good airgame and smashes that seem to KO at stupidly low % and come out faster than most others in the game.
Him probably followed by metaknight then toon link. They're who I have the most trouble with.
Scarlet Jile
Smash Lord
Math cups for life.
Buuman
Smash Ace
Entered Mass Madness today, beat Dazwas' Zamus, Jynxs' meta knight, dark clouds' Olimar, and almost beat PC chris snake..however Omegablackmage keeps demolishing me with his GW...my best strategy so far..is wait for him to **** up and punish..its ****ing difficult...easily the worst matchup for bowser. My most useful tactic was turn around klaws from the sheild..and Fortress out of sheild..other than that bowser has nothing on him.
Buuman
Smash Ace
No one has any input on this? o_O
game and watch is fairly difficult but not the worst... olimar sucks lol
small + megacamp + actually can kill bowser at reasonable percents
sad times sad times
small + megacamp + actually can kill bowser at reasonable percents
sad times sad times
A2ZOMG
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Olimar's camping has no hitstun, unless he tosses Purples at you or F-smashes, the latter which only goes far if he tosses White if I recall. You can just fortress away the Pikmin too.
Your Firebreath also stops all but the Red Pikmin if I recall, so just keep an eye out for that lol. And stay in the air with Infinite midair jumps to avoid the grab.
But yeah it's a bad matchup.
Honestly I'd say Falco is a lot worse than Olimar. You can't gimp Falco. Falco also is better at chaingrabbing and camping than Olimar. Mind you Falco is really strong. Has fast and powerful Smashes, so he's killing pretty efficiently when he needs to.
Your Firebreath also stops all but the Red Pikmin if I recall, so just keep an eye out for that lol. And stay in the air with Infinite midair jumps to avoid the grab.
But yeah it's a bad matchup.
Honestly I'd say Falco is a lot worse than Olimar. You can't gimp Falco. Falco also is better at chaingrabbing and camping than Olimar. Mind you Falco is really strong. Has fast and powerful Smashes, so he's killing pretty efficiently when he needs to.
Buuman
Smash Ace
In conclusion..Bowser has a ****load of bad matchups, it's the way around the matchups we need to discuss :/
A2ZOMG
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Honestly I'd make a blind guess that Zelda is one of Bowser's better high tier matchups.
Din's Fire can't do **** to you when you're on the ground thanks to shielding. No really, it can't. Bowser happens to have very good options on the ground, so there really isn't any trouble approaching her. Your range >>> Zelda's keep in mind. The only thing Din's Fire really kills is the ability to approach in the air if I recall.
Once you get close, you just have to bait out one of her attacks, likely a Smash, Naryu's love, or a F-air. Then punish lol.
Din's Fire can't do **** to you when you're on the ground thanks to shielding. No really, it can't. Bowser happens to have very good options on the ground, so there really isn't any trouble approaching her. Your range >>> Zelda's keep in mind. The only thing Din's Fire really kills is the ability to approach in the air if I recall.
Once you get close, you just have to bait out one of her attacks, likely a Smash, Naryu's love, or a F-air. Then punish lol.
Aeyr
Smash Apprentice
I'm actually interested in this match up also. I don't know anyone who mains as bowser locally so I'm willing to play against one on wifi, though that doesn't really say much o.o.
ElectroBlooper
Smash Cadet
Hah, Zelda vs Bowser brings back memories. When I first got Melee my friend always used Zelda and I always used Bowser. We both sucked but I kept owning his Zelda with Bowser. Then he tried Down B 
The more I think about Bowser's matchups, the more stage selection seems especially important for Bowser. There are two reasons I can think of that support this idea. The first is that Bowser has a very difficult time with projectile spammers. This means that stage size and the presence of platforms changes the dynamics of the match significantly, depending on what the projectile is. The second reason is that way more characters pwn Bowser in the air than on the ground, especially from below. That increases the significance of platforms in Bowser's game.
Applying these ideas to the Zelda matchup, FD seems like a bad idea because the other side of the stage is going to seem a loooong ways away if Zelda's feeling campy. Battlefield closes the distance much better, but in some ways may actually be much worse because Zelda hits hard from below - that hurts Bowser A LOT. I would personally choose Smashville. It's not that big and the general lack of platforms makes it easier to stay grounded.
I'm sort of brainstorming here, so if that is way off the mark go ahead and say something.
As for the Zelda matchup, I think Bowser is fighting an uphill battle, especially if Zelda is a ***** and camps the whole match. With farore's wind she can keep warping away (or back to the same spot if you go running off) and continuing her camping. On top of this, Zelda will **** Bowser if he ends up above her. Bowser's advantages are that (I think) his ground game > Zelda's and that Zelda is punishable if she screws up and is much easier to knock around than Bowser. Also, Zelda is at a disadvantage if bowser is below her.
In short, the difficulty of this matchup for Bowser is directly proportional to how hard it is for him to stay grounded and at mid-close range. I think this is pretty hard for Bowser to do, even at Smashville. If I'm wrong and it's actually pretty easy (I'm skeptical of this possibility) then the matchup shouldn't be too bad.
I don't know how the Shiek vs Bowser matchup is in this game (haven't played Shiek as Bowser). I'm pretty sure it's not like Melee *shudders* but if a Zelda player halfway decent with Shiek (i.e. any competent Zelda player) can transform for an (even) easier matchup, Bowser vs Zelda could be almost irrelevant. :\
The more I think about Bowser's matchups, the more stage selection seems especially important for Bowser. There are two reasons I can think of that support this idea. The first is that Bowser has a very difficult time with projectile spammers. This means that stage size and the presence of platforms changes the dynamics of the match significantly, depending on what the projectile is. The second reason is that way more characters pwn Bowser in the air than on the ground, especially from below. That increases the significance of platforms in Bowser's game.
Applying these ideas to the Zelda matchup, FD seems like a bad idea because the other side of the stage is going to seem a loooong ways away if Zelda's feeling campy. Battlefield closes the distance much better, but in some ways may actually be much worse because Zelda hits hard from below - that hurts Bowser A LOT. I would personally choose Smashville. It's not that big and the general lack of platforms makes it easier to stay grounded.
I'm sort of brainstorming here, so if that is way off the mark go ahead and say something.
As for the Zelda matchup, I think Bowser is fighting an uphill battle, especially if Zelda is a ***** and camps the whole match. With farore's wind she can keep warping away (or back to the same spot if you go running off) and continuing her camping. On top of this, Zelda will **** Bowser if he ends up above her. Bowser's advantages are that (I think) his ground game > Zelda's and that Zelda is punishable if she screws up and is much easier to knock around than Bowser. Also, Zelda is at a disadvantage if bowser is below her.
In short, the difficulty of this matchup for Bowser is directly proportional to how hard it is for him to stay grounded and at mid-close range. I think this is pretty hard for Bowser to do, even at Smashville. If I'm wrong and it's actually pretty easy (I'm skeptical of this possibility) then the matchup shouldn't be too bad.
I don't know how the Shiek vs Bowser matchup is in this game (haven't played Shiek as Bowser). I'm pretty sure it's not like Melee *shudders* but if a Zelda player halfway decent with Shiek (i.e. any competent Zelda player) can transform for an (even) easier matchup, Bowser vs Zelda could be almost irrelevant. :\
A2ZOMG
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I'm about to say that Zelda loses to Bowser lololol. So Zelda players should counterpick Sheik against Bowser lololol.
Sheik more obviously wins against Bowser. Needle camps you, F-tilts you 50%, can actually approach and use aerials without getting punished, and as for kills she has a really good U-smash and a Dash attack canceled U-smash goes really far.
But no seriously, unless I'm mistaken Din's Fire is like ZERO THREAT vs Bowser (unless he's recovering). This is big, since Zelda's game revolves around camping with Din's Fire since she is bad at approaching.
Bowser unlike most characters approaches pretty well on the ground. This means you get to shield Din's Fire without putting yourself at a disadvantage. What's especially nice is that you outrange Zelda. This allows you to walk too close for her to use Din's Fire, and too far away from her for her to hit you with anything reasonably. Zelda is rather easy to deal with once she's in the air, because her air game leaves her very vulnerable.
Honestly, the only reason why Din's Fire seems problematic is that most characters approach with aerial attacks, so Din's Fire often forces people to air dodge, which is a lot more punishable than shielding. Or it forces campers to approach, and many of those characters are bad at approaching in the first place.
While it might seem illogical first glance, I'd say that you should actually counterpick FD against Zelda. Zelda actually wants platforms vs Bowser so she has more opportunities to put Bowser above her. When shielding is so good in Brawl, the distance FD provides Zelda doesn't really give her too many advantages.
Sheik more obviously wins against Bowser. Needle camps you, F-tilts you 50%, can actually approach and use aerials without getting punished, and as for kills she has a really good U-smash and a Dash attack canceled U-smash goes really far.
But no seriously, unless I'm mistaken Din's Fire is like ZERO THREAT vs Bowser (unless he's recovering). This is big, since Zelda's game revolves around camping with Din's Fire since she is bad at approaching.
Bowser unlike most characters approaches pretty well on the ground. This means you get to shield Din's Fire without putting yourself at a disadvantage. What's especially nice is that you outrange Zelda. This allows you to walk too close for her to use Din's Fire, and too far away from her for her to hit you with anything reasonably. Zelda is rather easy to deal with once she's in the air, because her air game leaves her very vulnerable.
Honestly, the only reason why Din's Fire seems problematic is that most characters approach with aerial attacks, so Din's Fire often forces people to air dodge, which is a lot more punishable than shielding. Or it forces campers to approach, and many of those characters are bad at approaching in the first place.
While it might seem illogical first glance, I'd say that you should actually counterpick FD against Zelda. Zelda actually wants platforms vs Bowser so she has more opportunities to put Bowser above her. When shielding is so good in Brawl, the distance FD provides Zelda doesn't really give her too many advantages.
-Kagato-
The Final Boss
Alright. I have to ask. I don't fight many G&W players, so I don't get what makes G&W Bowser's hardest matchup (according to the matchup chart).
So, may I have an explaination? The G&W players I've fought were nothing special, so I must be missing something here.
So, may I have an explaination? The G&W players I've fought were nothing special, so I must be missing something here.
G&W has ridiculous priority on most attacks, he has a great recovery that is very hard to gimp, he's faster and more effective at killing than Bowser, he has the dthrow possibilities, and he can bucket your Flames. Plus, Bowser is a large target and that makes it easier for G&W to land his moves.
Lord Kagato: IDK who you play against but I can assure you than you should not underestimate G&W while playing as Bowser. G&W does good against a lot of characters and it should be no surprise that he does good against Bowser as well.
Lord Kagato: IDK who you play against but I can assure you than you should not underestimate G&W while playing as Bowser. G&W does good against a lot of characters and it should be no surprise that he does good against Bowser as well.
-Kagato-
The Final Boss
I finally had the opportunity to fight a good one today, and I can see what you're coming from now.