The Botanical Gardens of the Mushroom Kingdom

[Z'zgashi]

^ As a Yoshi main, all you Kirby and Peach players have it easy so stop complaining lol.

@Illmatic: Imo, when discounting MK, that looks like a solid high tier MU spread.

 

[choknater]

why is peach disadvantaged vs lucario?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I would assume a lack of kill potential against him. Thats why Yoshi has it tough as well.

 

[z00ted]

why is peach disadvantaged vs lucario?

It's definitely disadvantaged, but it could be a -1.
From my experience, I feel as though it's a -2, though.

Here's my opinion from a panel:

Top level Lucario counters Peach. It's definitely winnable, but you're going to struggle and squirm to squeeze out a win against Lucario. A character that is rewarded for being punished is very difficult for Peach if she's trying to actually kill it. If you really sit down and analyze the cause -> effect of Peach vs Lucario it's pretty funny. You combo him at low percentages then he comes back and is able to do it 2x as hard. So now, you're stuck in a situation where you have to chip in damage until he's near kill percentages. Now understand that the character that you are up against is now at Snake level. He's going to kill you with practically anything (even a grab) and he also has a projectile that will kill you in one hit, except it's much larger and harder to avoid. The only great thing about Lucario is that he's not as hard as Snake to kill, but in an essence he's very difficult. Now I understand that this doesn't happen every time you go into a match against a Lucario, but this is what I've been experiencing against Trela recently. Sometimes, I may get lucky and tussle out one game here or one game there. I may win a few friendlies in a row, and I believe I'm getting better at the matchup. But this is all from experience and I've seen what Trela has done to a very large amount of Peach players that deemed to "understand" the matchup, lmao. I usually take Trela to last hit of our games or I get utterly destroyed. As of recent "last hit" situations have been occurring more frequently, so hopefully I can make this matchup seem even. I'm expecting you guys to think "Well Trela is 25,000x better than Illmatic" while this may be the case as of now, and I do agree that Trela is a very strong player - why am I taking him to close games? There comes a point in Brawl, I think where both players just understand each other so well that matchup ratios no longer matter if you truly understand a character that is not Metaknight you can still beat them, just depends on the person and the playstyle. It all boils down to who had that read or this read on the last stock, but to get there - for Peach, it's much harder and takes a ton of time to understand how you got there. This is why I believe Lucario is -2.

 

[ToferTheHuman]

I like how tofer is blowing everything I say out of proportion.

I didnt LITERALLY mean she only has 3 bad MUS, I was just pointing out that the best characters also have a handful of difficult match ups, so just because Peach has some herself isnt a huge slap to the face putting a giant invalid sticker or her.

*****, don't talk like I am not here.
I will **** you up.

 

[Vinylic.]

^ As a Yoshi main, all you Kirby and Peach players have it easy so stop complaining lol.

No complaints from me. No Siree.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I can see Peach improving a great deal with an mk absent metagame. MK is a horrible MU for her and while marth is a likely most common character without MK, it's less significant because he doesn't have the raw overall MU advantages that mk has and therefore won't be anywhere near as common in the later stages of brackets.

Also, there's the fact that it's a less horrible MU.

 

[MechaWave]

Peach is hella viable with MK gone. She should be at least like, high tier now. The only thing standing in her way is like... i dunno... Snake? And thats not even that bad, its completely doable.

She pretty much is. Less MKs around and most of them are moving on to other characters. Though Peach does have her disadvantageous matchups, she can easily overcome them with the right playstyle.

Though I feel until she can be a high mid-tier or something (which I severely doubt but could happen >_>), we Peach players have to prove her viability of being that high. So my guess is she'll be at the lowest spot of the high tiers next tier list, if not a +1 in position.

 

[z00ted]

She's DEFINITELY better then Fox and Wolf with Metaknight absent.

 

[Dark.Pch]

ya pretty much this. i'm not that good yet but i'm excited to play with everyone up here and learn the right way to play matchups, cause i'm actually pretty slow to learn them..takes me alot of practice. sometime kinda soon i'll probably take a tirp to vinnie's area and enter the hyperbolic time chamber lol.

You should come to poly brawl. Big tourny in brooklyn, NY. It's next month.

Lol, I remember when Dark Pch. suggested that Snake vs Peach was an even match-up. Good times.

Is D3 vs Peach still considered even?

I still feel that way. Though I have stated that I could never quite figure out how I can expose this and been working on it for a while. So until then, snake slightly wins. Not sure what is funny about it. Thats my opinion on it. Just like you and the rest have yours. Snake has some weak points that Peach can abuse hard. Im not in a mood to get into a debate or egotisic fights in here, thus I left this place. So I am not gonna get into it here. I wuld talk to Nicole about this though.

DDD I feel that match up is even. And Vex once told me long ago is if Peach players gay enough, she takes the match up by a small amount. What I think Peach players lag is a solid way to pressure DDD. He can't to a damm thing OoS to Punished placed moves. If you Dair then do a Falling bair, from behind on his shield, You can Buffer a reverse jab. It still takes frames to jump out of shield. So if he goes for an bair or uptilt, he is gonna get slapped. Big characters like him should be pressured to a degree where you control and cover his option to punish you. Peach is one of those characters that can due to her frame advantage on her air attacks. And Low cool Down time on many of her other moves. There is also 2 things Peach should be doing Vs DDD.

-If at any time He is not near you and he tosses his minions, Jab them. You will be freshining moves. Dont use any other attack on them, not even nair. Just jab. Jab aint killing at all. So use it for a refresh.

- Limit DDD Chain grabbing. You need to realize the ways Peach has to limit this. One way is obviously good spacing. You may notice that even if you space, you still get grabbed and think His grab is godly. That is not the case. Same goes for Lucario. Reason you get grabbed is cause You fair too soon. For Peach to be able to auto cancel, She has to touch the floor. You can't jab if you did not touch the floor yet right? common sense. Make sure you are leveled with the characters height when you swing. That way when you hit the shield, you fall soon after, thus you can advantage of your frame data. You have 2 frames to protect yourself from a shield grab or counter attack. And thats where her Jab comes in. Those done right, you can't be touch. Only thing that breaks this rule is

- Marths,bowser,G&W and I believe DK's up

Now this goes back to pressure on DDD. People except 2 jabs,then grab. I have falling for this many times. And I have also realize this. So What you can do is 2 things. One is Jab cancel. This can screw DDD over for a times shield grab or attack out of it. Then Do a Jab cambo. Maybe Jab to Dsmash, or dash attack. Maybe a Ftilt. hell, even Fsmash to space well and push you away in case he wants to retaliate OoS. DDD Has no Range in front of him Besides his Ftilt, and it is not fast. His quick GTFO move is behind him. So if you can keep the pressure in from of him, you are on the good side.

Another thing you can do is what I call, Jab mix up/pressure. Now when you Jab a shield, people might expect 2 jabs, or sidestep/roll. So I been doing this type of pressure i do in melee to bair reactings and punish them. Also confuse people. I usually do things like one Jab, then quickly bair them, to maybe a Jab or Dsmash (payting attention to shield to make sure they can't block my Dsmash) examples of this would be:

Jab>bair>jab cancel<grab
Jab cancel>roll behind>Jab>nair
Jab cancel>roll behind>Jab>Dair.
Jab>side step>Jab cancel> bair>Dsmash
Jab cancel> Roll Behind> Jab cancel> Floating Dair>Bair/Nair>Dsmash

The point of side stepping or rolling behind is cause Your opponent may expect you to stay in front of thing with your assault. Thus they roll behind you or side step, to punish you. or attack out of shield. So with in your pressure, Side step or roll behind. This confuses your opponent. And they might attack leaving themselves open. Like I once Jab canceled snake on his shield and then rolled behind him. He side step my second Jab And then tried to punish that with his Ftilt. Since I Jabed canceled, I had time to roll behind him and escape his counter attack. Thus I kept the pressure on him and baited him to throw out a move. leaving his *** open for me to grab or attack him. its good to switch the times you will evade within a pressure. That way your enemy wont catch on and think you would roll or side step after a jab cancel and he waits for it.

Stuff like this should be applied to alot of characters. But big characters get it the worst. So doing this on DDD will help tons. And one other way to reduce the chain grab on DDD is to throw a turnip in the air if you think he might grab you. So when he goes for the chain grab, the turnip will break it. You can do this when approaching him. if you can, have 2 in the air and go for the pressure. So incase you screw up, the turnip can stop the chain. Now if he thinks he is slick and wait for the turnips to hit the floor before he goes on with the chain grab, You can use this time to wiggle out.

Stages like Lylat and YI are good. if you hold the stick away on lylat on a slope (downhill), DDD will wiff his grab. He will not be able to grab you at all. Same with YI. And castle seige.

 

[Nicole]

idk...i still think snake is pretty unwinnable (and by that i mean you get close to beating him everytime but he's snake and you're peach so something gay happens and you end up losing because he kills at 100 and you kill at 200). falco seems unwinnable to me but i think that's just me.

marth doesnt seem toooo bad, i kinda like it cause it's alot like mk in the sense that he has no projectile and it's fun.

also i think wolf is hard for us. its hard to kill him...he's like a mobile ddd that we can't combo as well that i guess we dont have to worry about getting grabbed against...with a better projectile. idk..i dont care for him at all.

on the flipside, more pikachus and ice climbers will be fun.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Fox almost definitely.


Wolf, I'm not sure. I'd have to take a closer look at things like the commonalities of his bad MUs.

 

[Dark.Pch]

idk...i still think snake is pretty unwinnable (and by that i mean you get close to beating him everytime but he's snake and you're peach so something gay happens and you end up losing because he kills at 100 and you kill at 200). falco seems unwinnable to me but i think that's just me.

marth doesnt seem toooo bad, i kinda like it cause it's alot like mk in the sense that he has no projectile and it's fun.

also i think wolf is hard for us. its hard to kill him...he's like a mobile ddd that we can't combo as well that i guess we dont have to worry about getting grabbed against...with a better projectile. idk..i dont care for him at all.

on the flipside, more pikachus and ice climbers will be fun.

Snake is a game of mental control. I played on this weekend. Every time I got mad and wanted to hit him, I lost. Even when I had the lead. When I decided to sit back, and chill, I won the matches. You need to know what % he dies on. Then figure out how to get him to that %. Once you do, do not think it's time to rush in and kill. If you can't get that opening, don't force it. His nades are easy to avoid if you just don't move so much. if you have that lead, dance around his nades. He has to come to you to take a stock. And obviously pay attention to where he sets his traps. his mines take about 34 secs to vanish. His nades set off in 4 secs. idk about his C4.

This is what I do to beat snake. And matches take so long to end. Not because he is hard to kill, but because I take my sweet time.

Marth now is not so annoying to me anymore. Peach Bair helps along with smart use of turnips. And I try to time his nair with a counter dast attack. or a turnip snipe to the head. I just don't like recoverying against this fool. Me personally, I have an easier time coming back vs meta then him.

Falco I got better. What I said about pressure on my last post, thats how I play falco now. it makes it so much easier to deal with him. I also got better at edeguarding him. Timed dash attacks when he lasers help so much. And this makes him cautious when doing this. So I would approach at a certain distance and not do anything. So Incase he wants to F-B, I can catch it. But this is all based on quick reaction time.

Wolf does not worry me. The way I do that match up is I usually let wolf throw the first punch. I time it to a point that when he does his bair, I can dish out mines and hit him. Thats how I usually beat it. That takes care of his gay spaming bair game. Ether that or I leave it alone. I pressure him as much as possible when He is grounded and I am near him. if I can't anymore, I get away from him. Cause he might wanna start his D-B crap. And when appraoching, I sometimes have a turnip in hand. To either bait his D-B and punish or follow up with it. I limit the glide tosses towards him. Just good pressure ****s him up. But I dont stay inside for long cause of his D-B. So I use this time to try to bait it within my pressure, and take a free hit. Just like you don't wanna be pounding on Marths shield cause of his up-B.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Snake is a game of mental control. I played on this weekend. Every time I got mad and wanted to hit him, I lost. Even when I had the lead. When I decided to sit back, and chill, I won the matches. You need to know what % he dies on. Then figure out how to get him to that %. Once you do, do not think it's time to rush in and kill. If you can't get that opening, don't force it. His nades are easy to avoid if you just don't move so much. if you have that lead, dance around his nades. He has to come to you to take a stock. And obviously pay attention to where he sets his traps. his mines take about 34 secs to vanish. His nades set off in 4 secs. idk about his C4.

This is what I do to beat snake. And matches take so long to end. Not because he is hard to kill, but because I take my sweet time.

Marth now is not so annoying to me anymore. Peach Bair helps along with smart use of turnips. And I try to time his nair with a counter dast attack. or a turnip snipe to the head. I just don't like recoverying against this fool. Me personally, I have an easier time coming back vs meta then him.

Falco I got better. What I said about pressure on my last post, thats how I play falco now. it makes it so much easier to deal with him. I also got better at edeguarding him. Timed dash attacks when he lasers help so much. And this makes him cautious when doing this. So I would approach at a certain distance and not do anything. So Incase he wants to F-B, I can catch it. But this is all based on quick reaction time.

Wolf does not worry me. The way I do that match up is I usually let wolf throw the first punch. I time it to a point that when he does his bair, I can dish out mines and hit him. Thats how I usually beat it. That takes care of his gay spaming bair game. Ether that or I leave it alone. I pressure him as much as possible when He is grounded and I am near him. if I can't anymore, I get away from him. Cause he might wanna start his D-B crap. And when appraoching, I sometimes have a turnip in hand. To either bait his D-B and punish or follow up with it. I limit the glide tosses towards him. Just good pressure ****s him up. But I dont stay inside for long cause of his D-B. So I use this time to try to bait it within my pressure, and take a free hit. Just like you don't wanna be pounding on Marths shield cause of his up-B.

I'm gonna be around the city most weekends these days, train with me please?

I'll bring melee too.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I can deal with Marth. Snake on the other hand ticks me off. He just lives too dang long...

 

[Nordal]

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

I think it goes more like that. I feel Marth was over exaggerated, pika is even, falco I personally feel is -2 but I can see it going -1, and I trust you with the rest.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm gonna be around the city most weekends these days, train with me please?

I'll bring melee too.

Sure, is your number the same? I got a new phone so mines is different.

I can deal with Marth. Snake on the other hand ticks me off. He just lives too dang long...

I feel the same way. But as I said, he is a match up that you can not rush. Not even meta knight can rush him. You see how matches like m2k and ally goes. When they are both going in, that match up takes time. So imagine up. You have to take your time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sure, is your number the same? I got a new phone so mines is different.

Yea, text me.

If you don't have it anymore I can PM it to you.

 

[z00ted]

Oh yeah, Diddy is definitely -1.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I still got it and sent you the text. Just let me know when you around the city. There is a smashfest I go to every friday, so if you want in on that, you can come. Be usually end it late.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I always thought Peach went even with Diddy, what gives Diddy the favor?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

My own impression of Peach's MU spread, since apparently that's the new cool thing to do:

-4:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:
+4:

And I am willing to explain my reasoning.

Also Marth could be only a -1, I had a bit of trouble placing him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I still got it and sent you the text. Just let me know when you around the city. There is a smashfest I go to every friday, so if you want in on that, you can come. Be usually end it late.

Aight cool, I'll let you know.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I always thought Peach went even with Diddy, what gives Diddy the favor?

Cause just about everyone Peach player loses to these diddys. Also some like to approach diddy in the air alot. So Diddy just goes in and Fairs. And some don't know how to approach on the ground, so fall for his banana tricks. When inside diddy, they don't really keep the pressure well, or get to reckless. he does not win in my eyes. But everyone else thinks he does.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I saw Illmatic's avatar and user title and now my respect is his forever.

 

[ToferTheHuman]

GaW at even?
Because he can't kill us at 80 or anything.

 

[Dark.Pch]

GaW at even?
Because he can't kill us at 80 or anything.

While I agree with that statement, you also need to realize there are match up Peach wins where the character can kill Peach early. Killing is not always the case for a match up being bad. Like Bowser and Ganon can kill her early. But think about how hard it would be to land a solid finisher. Ike has alot of kill moves. But it is hard for him to land one.

 

[ToferTheHuman]

Except GaW can literally spam his moves and they kill us.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Except GaW can literally spam his moves and they kill us.

They are just really strong smash attacks. =/

 

[Dark.Pch]

Except GaW can literally spam his moves and they kill us.

If he is spamming his moves and you get hit by them:

- You are just running into everything and not paying attention.
- You don't know how to approach him and deal with his moves.

His bair is Not hard to SDI. I usually smash DI infront of him to a bair. Nair you can SDI out and end up on the sides, Not over him. And shis smash attacks are slow. Those are his main kill moves. If a G&W is spamming moves, he actually makes things easy for you. Wait and punish. Like when I see some wanting to Dair so much, Really when I am under a platform. I just wait under it. I don't do anything. The fool dairs and I dish an uptilt. Or if he is over me in general.

If he is gonna land an affect kill on you, you would have to run into it of get baited. Peach can make it really hard for G&W to finish her off. The G&W player has to bait/read and out play you to get that hit off. He can't just throw **** out and be like "trolololo, this is too easy, spam moves and win" This isnt 08 where people did not know how to handle him. People learned. And smart players body him now.

 

[ToferTheHuman]

Lol why are you taking me serious?
I am just saying ****.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Oh yea, it's been so long since I been here. I forgot people don't take anything serious here and just wanna fight/be a bore.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I take things serious.

 

[z00ted]

i saw illmatic's avatar and user title and now my respect is his forever.

< 3

 

[Meru.]

WTF Peach beats Fox, not the other way around.

I don't agree with some other match-up ratios as well but this one stands out. Fox beating Peach yeaaah no.

 

[ToferTheHuman]

Dat upsmash.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

*Checks thread to see Illmatic's response*
*Sees Peach players thinking they beat Fox / Wolf and are even with Diddy*
*Shakes head and leaves thread*

 

[Dark.Pch]

WTF Peach beats Fox, not the other way around.

I don't agree with some other match-up ratios as well but this one stands out. Fox beating Peach yeaaah no.

I like to say that the match up is even. But yea, he does not win. Played nakatt fox in tourny and 2 stocked it. I ended up losing to his meta after. Fox is the easiest space animal to approach. if he hits you with a dair, you can SDI away. He tried this on me to an upsmash. I SDI away and was able to PS the upsmash each time. If he does it while you in the air, it is even easier.

If Fox is camping me I just go near him and then move a way a lil, I zone in and out. To confuse him. I don't always go to attack him. And I sometimes do this with a turnip in hand. He might be waiting for me to attack and shield. He shield just gets smaller. And thats what I want. So when I pressure him, he is getting shield poked and tossed around. Even when I have high damage, I don't rush fox. I let him shoot. He has to come to be and get through my wall. In this case I can evade and put the pressure on him or get some hits. or pressure him and get away, saving my stock. I was at 223 when I played him in tourny. I did not let him kill me no matter how many lasers shot. I just went in a lil to scare him and force him to stop since he thought I would attack him. Then move back a lil and kept a certain distance. Incase he would wanna F-B and I can react/punish it.

 

[MechaWave]

itt Dark.Pch actually usually correct grammar and punctuation.

The top tier characters pretty much get me, be it Falco or Marth. Snake I can handle though, but he just takes forever to KO. Not a big deal really but still. But Lucario is a *****.

Wolf is a -1 to me.

 

[Deleted member]

*Checks thread to see Illmatic's response*
*Sees Peach players thinking they beat Fox / Wolf and are even with Diddy*
*Shakes head and leaves thread*

Diddy I can understand. Fox and Wolf?

...nope.