The best damn balance/gameplay improvement suggestion yet

[FartyParty]

I originally posted this in reply to the patch 2.0.0 announcement here but thought it warranted it's own discussion.

The idea I had was adjusting the stale moves mechanic to increase the end lag of ground moves and landing lag of aerials on top reducing damage and knockback.

A change like that would reduce spamming (mainly projectile spam but also something like Ike nair and fair spam) and improve balance without buffing/nerfing any specific characters or moves. It would be no different than how the lag increases on dodges for overusing them. Take that same principle and apply it to attacks. Do the same thing too many times, and you will get punished.

What do you all think?

 

[Luigifan18]

I have no idea how this can actually be implemented... Also, adjusting endlag for moves that put the user in an immobile aerial state (like Jigglypuff's Rollout (on hit only), Mega Man's Mega Upper, and Ryu/Ken's Shoryuken) would be rather weird... do you make it take longer for them to hit the ground?!

 

[Teeb147]

It's not really a bad idea for encouraging all kinds of moves, but nope, I don't like it. I much prefer to have the freedom to keep landing with low lag.

 

[Orlando BCN]

Only works with Bayo due to her crackhead combos. It would nerf the combo game of some characters like Marthcina, who require f-air strings for carrying, and Puff, who basically sucks on the ground. It would truly be an unorthodox game should it be implemented.

 

[link2702]

No.

Reason, some characters are hurt far more from something like this than others, including ones who aren’t that good to begin with.

This also greatly hurts projectile characters, who are intentionally designed to put up a wall of projectiles to force approaches.

 

[MarioMeteor]

This sounds like a terrible idea. It would ruin (or at least seriously hinder) the combo structure of a lot of characters, and zoners such as Belmont would be hurt badly, too. The stale move mechanic is fine the way it is.

 

[ALiBi212]

I think the best way to reduce spamming is to whoop the opponents’ predictable a** every chance you get. Spamming is not a viable strategy, despite what some beginners who have yet to git gud may believe.

Naturally, spammers exist in lower GSP’s. This is because you cannot compete in Elite by using PK fire 6000 times per match.

Long story short, I do not think spamming is an issue for experienced players. For inexperienced players, such an advanced balancing mechanic would only make the game more frustrating.

 

[Necro'lic]

Man, I actually had a suggestion for this one thing amidst a BUNCH of suggestions in another thread I made:

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Stale Move Negation Changes

• Stale moves no longer causes damage decrease
• Fresh moves no longer get a 5% damage increase
• Stale moves now increase DI deviation and Vectoring influence
• Stale move queue time increased slightly

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This builds upon the idea that DI is a fantastic game mechanic that should be used more. However, it also fixes a contradiction in Smash Bros mechanics. The stale-move negation is meant to make players shy away from spamming moves, however, since damage and knockback are in line with each other, staling moves can potentially make them stronger by making them easier to combo into other things. Thus, you are encouraged to spam certain moves. This is not a good fix for this.

Now, DI deviation and vectoring influence increase the more a move is spammed. This is nothing but a bad thing for the spammer, regardless of the move used, because higher DI deviation on a comboing move is obviously bad, because it makes it less likely to combo into other things. However, it is bad for kill moves too because survival DI is a thing, and vectoring can be used to resist knockback in a direction directly. As established, vecotring influence would be worse as the knockback accrued is stronger, but just that little bit added because some genius decided to spam their kill moves along with the survival DI means this is also bad for kill moves.

Because of this, I believe this particular way of going about stale-move negation is actually just straight up better than what we have in terms of the goals it is trying to accomplish.

Take it as you will. Got the mindset of what I was going for too.

 

[Crystanium]

Just learn to deal with spam. After all, if someone uses the same move, it should be predictable. That, in and of itself, is enough to make spammed attacks unreliable after a while.

 

[FartyParty]

Just learn to deal with spam. After all, if someone uses the same move, it should be predictable. That, in and of itself, is enough to make spammed attacks unreliable after a while.

I personally can deal with spam, but a very large portion of the player base is complaining about it making something worthwhile for Nintendo to address through a patch. The stale moves mechanic struck me as the best way to deal with it.

 

[Idon]

No.
This is THE worst patch suggestion I've EVER heard. Adding this level of variance harms the viability of dozens of characters and benefits no one.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Umm no. This would ruin most combos as most fighters, not just a few, rely on 2-3 specific grounded/aerial moves to combo certain fighters in certain areas. This would force the player to have to only throw out random moves one at a time to land hits and free flowing combos would be destroyed.

 

[Mischiiii]

Nope. Totally not a good idea. Spamming moves or spamming projectiles (assuming this isn’t free for all with 3-4 people) isn’t an issue. Some characters even rely on their projectiles to be viable.

The best solution for this two problems is simply to learn how to counter very predictable behavior. People who complain about projectiles for example don’t understand that you have to close up with shield, roll, jump and dodge. Example: Why should someone with projectiles fight little mac head on in close combat most of the time if he has worse close combat attacks and no super armor on his smashes?

 

[Lord_Ghirahim]

No thank you, this would cause a large and unnecessary increase in difficulty and would make the game feel way less consistent. Let's say for example I want to combo an aerial (nair) into down-tilt. I would need to keep track of how stale my nair is so I know if it can connect. It's just asking too much IMO and people would either struggle to keep track of staleness or just not bother. Certainly a big downgrade to the game play, even if it increases complexity somewhat.

Despite how strongly I disagree with this idea I know your heart is in the right place lol. You just want to make life easier for those players who struggle against spam but this isn't a good fix for that. It's gonna have to be the old fix of "git gud" I'm afraid.

 

[Crystanium]

I personally can deal with spam, but a very large portion of the player base is complaining about it making something worthwhile for Nintendo to address through a patch. The stale moves mechanic struck me as the best way to deal with it.

It doesn't need any addressing. Damage and knock-back stale, so that's another response to overused attacks. Not to mention, shielded attacks now stale, a new feature not present in previous games.

 

[FartyParty]

No thank you, this would cause a large and unnecessary increase in difficulty and would make the game feel way less consistent. Let's say for example I want to combo an aerial (nair) into down-tilt. I would need to keep track of how stale my nair is so I know if it can connect. It's just asking too much IMO and people would either struggle to keep track of staleness or just not bother. Certainly a big downgrade to the game play, even if it increases complexity somewhat.

Despite how strongly I disagree with this idea I know your heart is in the right place lol. You just want to make life easier for those players who struggle against spam but this isn't a good fix for that. It's gonna have to be the old fix of "git gud" I'm afraid.

It was less about making life easier for players who struggle against spam, and more about making life harder for players who utilize spam tactics.

But I can see from responses that I didn't think through all the ramifications.

 

[MangoPeachey]

just because a lot of people think stuff like Ike spamming nair is annoying does not mean it will or should be nerfed. i know it sounds stupid but lol just don't get hit 4head

 

[Sean²]

I would outright quit this game if that was implemented.