The beginning of the end - breaking the MK matchup

[SuSa]

My assumption on page 2 (IIRC) is correct. It listed situations and what we do.

Anything think of another move? I was thinking dair (since most MK's dair camp.. except.. Havok.. lol)

 

[Underload]

I say we cover the tilts first. Ftilt is a pain, it's deceptively rangeful.

I make up words to get my point across, YOU GET THE IDEA.

 

[SuSa]

I know what you're talking about. That's the other thing Havok uses against me. xD

He literally wins the matchup with dtilt, ftilt, and fair.... =\

EDIT:
Does anyone know how ftilt's delay on inputs work? Otherwise this frame data isn't overly helpful. Unless the opponent stops the ftilt <_<

FTILT

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

frame summary:
duration: 40
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits

1st hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -11

2nd and 3rd hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23

Hitstun first hit: 16 base of blade (-4 advantage), variable at tip*
Hitstun second hit: variable*

*what happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current %, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high %

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think it's pretty much safe to say that if you get hit by Ftilt on block, do not try to do anything out of shield. You'll get hit by one of the three hits if you try to punish from a PS. In which case the only time to punish the move is by dropping the shield, or jump OoS with Dair.

Edit:

@Crystal
Dthrow puts Snake into an easier position in which to gimp him. Always. :/

Unless you DI away and tech, then in which case Dthrow still really is not useful for gimps at all :/ It is just a tech chase.

If dthrow was used near the stage edge, then it is another story. Onstage though fthrow seems the better of just about all the throws.

w/e, let MKs worry about that.

 

[SuSa]

Good point for that. haha.

Let's.

Anyways.... how does ftilt work? >.<

 

[o-Serin-o]

Holy **** you guys are really going to do this.

I wish you the best of luck *salutes*

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm bored with life I need something to do to fill my time I enjoy doing.

SuSa, I do not get what you do not understand about Ftilt.

At the fastest it can go is all 3 hits within 10 frames with the final cooldown time having a good 30 frames of lag. Safe to say we can even Utilt MK in that mess or Ftilt. Enough said there on block.

The only problem is that MK can pretty much stall each hit and make the whole attack last a lot longer. Of all the moves, PSing won't do anything to this. It's better to just wait for all 3 hits to finish, or wait for a lull in the attack and Dair OoS.

 

[SuSa]

Here's the problem:

If he does the first hit of ftilt, you cannot shield drop to punish because he will just follow through (thru? lol)
If you don't shield drop, he simply stops and you still can't punish it in time.

 

[napZzz]

The good mk I usually play mixes up his ftilts. Its hard to predict the next move if he just cancels it into a dtilt to shield poke or grabs you before you can do anything.

Sometimes I think its just better to leave and take no damage than risk giving to take

 

[Underload]

I'm sure people have habits when it comes to using ftilt. If the first hit is shielded, then they'll either blindly follow through the other two hits, or the smart MK will wait.

Same with Snake's ftilt for me. Before, if the first hit didn't connect, I would blindly throw out the 2nd hit, hoping it would hit. Now, I wait and poke.

So, in short, it's hard to evaluate ftilt accurately.

 

[SuSa]

I still have that habit with ftilt. T_T slowly breaking it....

It's the main reason I lose..... I follow through with it and get punished, usually with death -_-

But that was my point on MK's ftilt. It's kind of like ours... I say just angle your shield towards them+down to try and avoid the dtilt, but I wish I knew how long you can seperate the hits. You might be able to tell if they are going to use the 2nd hit or not, so you can grab (IIRC, the first hit is within Snake's grab range)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Then it seems we are missing frame data for the inbetween hits. The longest it seems to be drawn out that I could get was a little over a second, so all 3 hits can it's cooldown seem to last at least 60 frames. So maybe a 10 frame window between each hit?

Meaning this:

First hit comes out on frame 3
after 10 frames MK can still activate the 2nd hit. After 2nd hit comes out a further 10 frame window to activate the 3rd hit before it goes into it's 30 frames of cooldown time. I'm just speculating though.

 

[SuSa]

I'm waiting for Eternal to show up saying he can check it using Project SA. :x

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In the mean time, one can always start looking at how best to DI attacks

 

[RATED]

this is a video of me playing against a MK. I hope it could help : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Ld2OX9Acs . also LOL the next game after that vid is recorded too( then ddd ***** me ) also we should try this "project" against DDD too.

 

[SuSa]

I was thinking of saying **** the SS, make it a board thing...so I did :x

MK, then DDD, then Olimar.

Then we can laugh at all who say we have a disadvantaged matchup.

Except DDD will still probably have the advantage on us. :/

meh.

 

[Bizkit047]

Good stuff in that match. Personally, I'd have went for the ledge more when recovering than air dodge into the grounded MK at high % so many times, because you ate a lot of unnecessary Dsmashes and Fsmashes. The MK was nowhere near the edge either a lot of the time when he was grounded waiting for you to land. Or pivot nade even would help. Oh, and my fav thing to do when MKs whiffs a predictable Up B like at 3:45 in the vid is to Bair them before they can get away. If next to the edge like that it can kill pretty well. Of course it requires a double jump though.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

MK's ftilt

Ftilt 1
Hitbox comes out: 3
Duration: only 1
Normal hitlag and SDI potential
Frame 5: Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[16]True
Translation: IASA frame for ftilt 2 only

Ftilt 2
Hitbox comes out: 2
Duration: only 1 frame
Normal hitlag and SDI potential
Frame 4: Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[16]True
Translation: IASA frame for ftilt 3 only

Ftilt 3
Hitbox comes out: 2
Duration: only 1 frame
Normal hittlag and SDI potential
NO IASA frames

 

[SuSa]

And.... in English that means...?

I just want to know how long each tilt can be delayed.... :x

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Until the animation for the previous tilt is over, much like our ftilt. PSA doesn't tell you this though.

 

[SuSa]

So....basically........*cries* it's impossible to tell.

God**** it.

MK's ftilt is about as safe as ours. ....but safer

 

[Sinz]

The match up is all about not getting gimped. Don't go in to auto pilot at all vs MK, or you will get gimped. If he back throws you just get on to the stage and watch out. When recovering try to get the F away from MK. or you will just eat a smash.
Don't try to punish Fsmash(unless your behind him already.)(its deceiving, it looks like it has more lag than it does.)

Um, shenanigans.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i think this thread needs more input. what i think is needed is someone has to go find as many snake vs mk fights they can of good players (not just ally) then we need to break down the fights step by step to see what works and what does not work. we need fights between good players it does not matter if the snake wins or loses. (i think that we will find out what works on mk and what mk's do that hurts snake the most so we can counter it.)

This needs to be done i am to sick of mk and his broken ways. we need to stop him or ban him already (just b/c ally beats him does not mean he is not broken)

 

[Staco]

MK cant Dair camp vs. Snake pretty well.
Predict/Punish his Dair rythm, then doublejump OoS and Nair/Bair them.

 

[gallax]

ill be willing to contribute what i can. i play some solid MK's around here and have played them quite a bit. i still dont fully understand the matchup but im willing to contribute what i know. playing against a dair camping mk, how to avoid a b only MK, etc... the hardest mk's for me are the ones who know how to beat your ftilt and know how to avoid our grab.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

ok like i said we should post and then break down videos of snake vs mk win or lose. so here are some (they came all the way from japan). Also someone post all the ally vs m2k.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBVjU9US9iA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZBzAALEJrE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3ppAWEYLGY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npx488h6Cm0&feature=related

I know the japanese are not as good as the US but i figure there might be something in here which could be helpful.

 

[stingers]

SuSa what happened to CC

Jerk

 

[manofgames4555]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXeIgIdEhQ

 

[luke_atyeo]

I used to hate fighting ketaknights, now whenever someone picks him against me I think (yes!) oh you want to be like that too? simple

travel all the way to a magical land called chula vista (San Diego) and go to havoks place (the real one) and get him to train you in the ways of anti mk, also while your there hall will school you in explosives use.
havok is a great teacher and one of the best mk's in the country and you WILL learn to **** mk's.

 

[SuSa]

The real one?

There is a reason I changed my name. <_<

Havok is a good teacher, and **** does his MK know how to wreck Snakes. =p

Swear, the guy reminded me of my friendly vs Dojo... such a sad sight...

 

[Hall]

The thing about Havok is that his ground game is better than DSF or Tyrant's. He has Street Fighter influence which makes him want to score the grabs more often and use a lot of cross ups. Against Havok you need to beat him in the grab game (pivot grabs) and keep the pressure on (grenades). He's especially good at reading moves and air dodges. You're going to have to step up your mind games and throw out some unexpected things to come close.

 

[Berserker.]

Havok sounds like a cool name, why did you change it to SuSa I thought you were a girl when I first saw your account

About MK, what do you mean by breaking the MK match up?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

There is a more well known Brawler in SoCal named Havok, thus SuSa changed his name to avoid confusion.

Btw, is there even any well known girls around the boards other than KB?

 

[xsephirot]

i have trouble against mk's who continuously upb --> glide attack --> dsmash. there seems to be no lag time for you to punish. Sometimes when i predict and spotdodge the upb, i can def miss the glide attaack but its when im running towards mk to punish, he is able to quickly dmash with no lag...

 

[Berserker.]

Whenever MK is near you you have many but risky options like dodging away from MK though MK is a VURY fast dodger but in my opinion, prepare a grenade and drop it then shield or go away from it and continue camping MK (which is kinda hard since MK has a STUPHED (In a good way Lol double parenthesis) approach) MK is just too fast and somewhat powerful, I hope he nerfs like Kirby from SSB 64 to SSBM

 

[-Ran]

I hear a period has a 99:1 match up vs run on sentences.

 

[AfroTastic]

Well spaced U-Tilt will go through the tornado.

F-Smash beats everything MK lolz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PVfGDbag50 epic proof that F-Smash is the key.

 

[.AC.]

i think you should discuss getting back on the ground next, i do so well until i get off ground. this is a vid from loser's finals of a recent big socal tournament vs havok, notice how he gives me such a hard time getting back =(

editz: how are you supposed to DI shuttle loop?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCVHT4I9ubA

 

[Berserker.]

You should see how Ally DI the shuttle loop, I thought Ally would get killed from that but he didn't get killed. O_O

 

[Limeee]

heres an slightly off topic idea about his dtilt

can we work the insta throw into defence against his dtilt?

because it seems like you can short hop over his dtilt and maybe throw the grenade down? lets try to work insta throws into snake vs mk game

sorry for the nub post