I've been reading this debate, and the whole atheism thing is stupid. I'm an agnostic. By your definition, I'm also an atheist. I don't call myself an atheist because people think atheist means that you believe God does not exist. The dictionary also thinks so. That is the commonly accepted definition. There's no reason to confuse people by calling yourself atheist when you can prevent misunderstanding by saying agnostic. You may be technically correct but, hey, I don't give a ****.
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The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature
- Thread starter Bazooka Lucca
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Ok, I'll agree as long as you don't say that you don't have faith in anything. Everyone has faith in something, and I know you do too.
But, I'm not going to press the point, so just think about it.
late response~
-Watching fanatics give free candy to the kids right outside public schools along with a free guide and booklet to the local church.
-Turning away door to door salesmen (what I call them now) who are advertising their church and religion. One time I recall hearing an old man leaving my front porch and he muttered, "Forgive them father, they do not know."
-Having my friend's parents take me to church Sunday morning just because I slept over Saturday night. Some years ago...
-Watching fanatics give free candy to the kids right outside public schools along with a free guide and booklet to the local church.
-Turning away door to door salesmen (what I call them now) who are advertising their church and religion. One time I recall hearing an old man leaving my front porch and he muttered, "Forgive them father, they do not know."
Mike da King
Smash Apprentice
[to rmusgrave]: There is no faith involved in atheism. Of course Atheists can have faith in things, provided you give them evidence. I have faith in friends because they have shown their reliability. Not so with God. Athiesm is NOT defined to be "the lack of faith," but rather "disbelief in the existence of supernatural being(s)." I am an atheist because I reject the unsupported claims of religion.
[to mediocre]: You don't confuse anybody by calling yourself an atheist if you really don't believe that God exists. This is different from asserting that he doesn't exist.
[to shredder]: I can empathize with that; Jehovah's witnesses park outside our school annually to dispense little orange bibles (i.e. kindling, paper airplane material, and oddly-shaped hacky sacks).
[to mediocre]: You don't confuse anybody by calling yourself an atheist if you really don't believe that God exists. This is different from asserting that he doesn't exist.
[to shredder]: I can empathize with that; Jehovah's witnesses park outside our school annually to dispense little orange bibles (i.e. kindling, paper airplane material, and oddly-shaped hacky sacks).
snex
Smash Master
while there is no faith inherant to atheism itself, almost every atheist still has some type of faith in things without evidence.
for example, do you have faith that your senses are passing you correct information about the world around you? if so, where is your evidence for this?
do you have faith that there even is such thing as truth? if so, do you have faith that truth is preferable to untruth?
as objective as one can be, there still needs to be some kind of base assumption to start from. the only difference is that the assumptions of a theist are far more complex and unlikely.
for example, do you have faith that your senses are passing you correct information about the world around you? if so, where is your evidence for this?
do you have faith that there even is such thing as truth? if so, do you have faith that truth is preferable to untruth?
as objective as one can be, there still needs to be some kind of base assumption to start from. the only difference is that the assumptions of a theist are far more complex and unlikely.
This one's easy, it can be verified by anyone around you. If you're sensing cigarette smoke, or if you heard a siren, or if you see a flash of light, you can simply turn to anyone around you and ask if they experienced the same thing. I don't exactly know the definition of "verified," in the scientific sense, but I always assumed that if other people are feeling the same things as me, there must not be anything wrong with my senses.
Pople are stupid and easily confused. I use the term that gets people to understand what I mean with the least explanation.
While I agree that almost every atheist does have some type of faith, I am not one of them. The phrase "I think therefore I am" sums up everything I believe in.
Now I remember why I stopped coming to the Debate Hall. Because no matter how innocently you post, (virtually) everyone is going to try and make you sound like an idiot. I don't mind admitting that I'm not the smartest person on the boards (some people would), but it's when other people go out of their way to make me sound dumb that I get irritated. Also, you may or may not have noticed that I through this in there:
As you can tell, my basic assumption was wrong. That's all you really needed to say. No point in name calling, unless you're just trying to make yourself sound superior.
Just to be a little on-topic, why are religious debates allowed to stay open at all? There's no evidence for either side, and neither side will ever change their mind. What's the point?
snex
Smash Master
wow mediocre, descartes is so outdated. time to upgrade your philosophy. read some nietzsche.
Xija
Smash Cadet
I've been an atheist since I was 10. I've been through so many things that made me believe that there was no supreme being. It is like my whole life is a joke. But that's beside the point.
I do not feel a need to convert people into atheism. I personally like to get as many different views on everything. That is why I like to debate about religion There is nothing wrong with religion in your life, I follow the basic principles of the bible, without believing in a supreme being.
My girlfriend though sometimes has a hard time comprehending this though. She has a naive relativist point of view. She feals that however is not a Christian (or religous for that matter) is prejudiced against relgion. I have to keep reminding her that I don't care what she practices, as long as she doesn't try to convert me.
Like I implied before, I'm not bashing peoples religion, Im just arguing to further my knowledge.
I do not feel a need to convert people into atheism. I personally like to get as many different views on everything. That is why I like to debate about religion There is nothing wrong with religion in your life, I follow the basic principles of the bible, without believing in a supreme being.
My girlfriend though sometimes has a hard time comprehending this though. She has a naive relativist point of view. She feals that however is not a Christian (or religous for that matter) is prejudiced against relgion. I have to keep reminding her that I don't care what she practices, as long as she doesn't try to convert me.
Like I implied before, I'm not bashing peoples religion, Im just arguing to further my knowledge.
I've been an aethist since a year or two ago and this is how I find that most people become aethiests.
1)Brought up in a family that doesn't practice a religion
2)Brought up in a family that heavily practices a religion, to the point where the child questions the religion, and comes to the whole part that religion brainwashed your parents.
When i was about 8, my grandfather died. During that time I questioned about death and heaven (I know it sounds hard to believe). My mom was hurt and was in denial, bent on the fact that her father would be going to heaven. So I would always question her about religion, and how heaven and how death was like. I became a christian from learning about this and I believed in God and heaven and ****.
Soon after years when I started to develop friends with families with religions, I began to learn about their religions. When I found out that it was different than my mom told me, I felt betrayed. I felt as if the whole thing was a lie and I couldn't believe in anything anymore.
Soon around 10, I would question religion and death. I was scared of death, the empty black feeling which would happen if there was no heaven. Whenever I would think about our existance, or death I would have panic attacks. So then I would go ahead and try to get my mind off of it. Well I would think about these things at night and I would panic, questioning everything and sometimes even start crying. As funny as it sounds games like goldeneye scared me cause I couldn't bear with the fact of death.
Soon around age of 13 i became friends with someone who was brought up in a catholic family. I began to think that there was a heaven, there was a god, there was a ****. So I eventually converted to Catholiscism and became a part of the local catholic community. I then soon started to learn about religion, and though how unfair it sounded. How god would send someone to **** for not believing in his religion, just because they could of been brought up a different way and never learned the ways of christianity/catholicism. I also thought that going to **** cuz of homosexuality was extremely seeing like god was just a huge bigot. I would send eventually question god 24/7 and start having those panic attacks about existence again. I would there call myself a turn-away catholic by just questioning everything in the church, and not understanding.
Here I am now, 16, and all I do is accept the fact that we do die and that we should try to make our lives worthwhile and that I wont be dieing anytime soon so I shouldn't worry about it. I hate it when christians bash other religions or aethists for not believing in their religion. I also hate it when aethists bash ppl in a religion for believing them. If someone wants to believe in god, fine with me, ill even go to church with them, but I will not convert or bash them cuz of it. Now I don't have these panic attacks anymore, all because I accepted death. I have experienced the loss of loved ones and I wish I could see them in an afterlife but I just have to learn to let go.
I could see myself later in my life converting back to religions, but for now I totally believe in science over religion. I just hate it when ppl bash ppl over being religious or being an aethiest, cant we just all get along?
1)Brought up in a family that doesn't practice a religion
2)Brought up in a family that heavily practices a religion, to the point where the child questions the religion, and comes to the whole part that religion brainwashed your parents.
When i was about 8, my grandfather died. During that time I questioned about death and heaven (I know it sounds hard to believe). My mom was hurt and was in denial, bent on the fact that her father would be going to heaven. So I would always question her about religion, and how heaven and how death was like. I became a christian from learning about this and I believed in God and heaven and ****.
Soon after years when I started to develop friends with families with religions, I began to learn about their religions. When I found out that it was different than my mom told me, I felt betrayed. I felt as if the whole thing was a lie and I couldn't believe in anything anymore.
Soon around 10, I would question religion and death. I was scared of death, the empty black feeling which would happen if there was no heaven. Whenever I would think about our existance, or death I would have panic attacks. So then I would go ahead and try to get my mind off of it. Well I would think about these things at night and I would panic, questioning everything and sometimes even start crying. As funny as it sounds games like goldeneye scared me cause I couldn't bear with the fact of death.
Soon around age of 13 i became friends with someone who was brought up in a catholic family. I began to think that there was a heaven, there was a god, there was a ****. So I eventually converted to Catholiscism and became a part of the local catholic community. I then soon started to learn about religion, and though how unfair it sounded. How god would send someone to **** for not believing in his religion, just because they could of been brought up a different way and never learned the ways of christianity/catholicism. I also thought that going to **** cuz of homosexuality was extremely seeing like god was just a huge bigot. I would send eventually question god 24/7 and start having those panic attacks about existence again. I would there call myself a turn-away catholic by just questioning everything in the church, and not understanding.
Here I am now, 16, and all I do is accept the fact that we do die and that we should try to make our lives worthwhile and that I wont be dieing anytime soon so I shouldn't worry about it. I hate it when christians bash other religions or aethists for not believing in their religion. I also hate it when aethists bash ppl in a religion for believing them. If someone wants to believe in god, fine with me, ill even go to church with them, but I will not convert or bash them cuz of it. Now I don't have these panic attacks anymore, all because I accepted death. I have experienced the loss of loved ones and I wish I could see them in an afterlife but I just have to learn to let go.
I could see myself later in my life converting back to religions, but for now I totally believe in science over religion. I just hate it when ppl bash ppl over being religious or being an aethiest, cant we just all get along?
Ah, if you didn't know, Christians believe or should believe that God created science. (I can't see any logical reason why he wouldn't have created science, given that he exists(feel free to prove me wrong)) So, I do not believe you can believe in science over religion, but that you believe in science instead of religion.
Exactly. What's the point of anything???
Why should I bother writing this? It won't change much in the scheme of the universe.
What I would like to put to you is that it does matter on our scale of things. Nothing really matters in terms of God, all powerful; all knowing... but people still work and come home at night to relax and enjoy themselves. I think we should stop thinking in terms of the magnitude of the universe and/or the magnificence of God and think in terms of us. That way everything matters.
That's my personal philosophy at the moment... If anyone can give me a better one please, go right ahead.
Plus, as a last point and to stay on topic, I am only still a Christian because it offers a logical explanation to the start of the universe which science does not. And since science is based in our current realms of perception, and not outside the timeline etc it can never give a complete explanation of the origin of the universe before the big bang. Thus, my reason for staying a Christian is that it can fill in some holes which science could never fill in.
Oh and also, when Christians say the meaning of life, they usually mean the meaning of sentience in regards to the afterlife.
Chew on that for a bit.
snex
Smash Master
how does religion do any better a job than science? no religion explains how god was created, and if it does, it doesnt explain how what was before god was created, or how what was before that was created, etc. theres always some level where things "just were." the only difference between religion and non-religion is that religion would prefer to stay at that point and say "well god just always was and thats it" while science continues to press further and always discover what came before.
I wasn't being so grandiose. I was talking about a much smaller scale IE SmashWorld Forums. They just waste space here, and nothing is ever compromised on either side.
Why argue whether or not things matter? Because they don't. Things only matter inside the mind of an intelligent (by this I mean "capable of thought") being. Do you get what I'm saying? Without thought, nothing in the universe matters.
Time will flow. That is all. Time will flow without you. It will flow without me. And without us, time will not matter either. The universe itself was not created with a purpose. Nothing beyond the reach of an organism was created with purpose. It didn't need to be.
If you want a purpose then go get one. Life won't be meaningless to you if you give it meaning. Even blissful ignorance is an alternative. Religion wouldn't be so bad if people didn't use it to hurt others. Others who already had a perception of their purpose. Or didn't and never will because they are dead.
People are better off not thinking about these things. At least they will slip into nonexistance with no complaints.
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Hmmm, I think this is my 500th post. Oh... Doesn't matter...
Time will flow. That is all. Time will flow without you. It will flow without me. And without us, time will not matter either. The universe itself was not created with a purpose. Nothing beyond the reach of an organism was created with purpose. It didn't need to be.
If you want a purpose then go get one. Life won't be meaningless to you if you give it meaning. Even blissful ignorance is an alternative. Religion wouldn't be so bad if people didn't use it to hurt others. Others who already had a perception of their purpose. Or didn't and never will because they are dead.
People are better off not thinking about these things. At least they will slip into nonexistance with no complaints.
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Hmmm, I think this is my 500th post. Oh... Doesn't matter...
Suretman
Smash Journeyman
I don't want to just barge in here, but I feel like replying. I'm agnostic, which is a lot like atheism but you don't believe in anything, you have no beliefs and your not sure what to believe. I think it's narrow-minded to be one who strongly believes that God exists and same for a fundamentalist athiest who thinks that God does not exist. I'm neutral on the issue and I don't care either way.
Actually, that's atheism. Agnosticism deals with a whole different question. Atheism is the lack of theism, agnosticism is the lack of gnosticism. You do not believe in any Gods, so you lack theism and are an atheist. If you also believe that knowledge of a deity would be impossible, you lack a belief in gnosticism and are agnostic.
It is the popular meaning to use agnostic as a "middle-of-the-road" option but it really doesn't make sense. Atheism is simply a lack of theism, ergo, if you don't believe in god(s), you're an atheist.
-B
Jigzzz
Smash Rookie
um don't know how to wuote people, but to adress the past few posts about the significance of religion and God, I believe that these threads are essential and it is so important to talk about this because it is essential for eveyone to figure out why they are here. I'm not saying you have to figure out life cus you can't do that but I mean figure out the purpose of life. If you know there is a God and heaven and **** then your best bet is to spend your entire life aimed at reaching heaven. If you dont believe in God then you should try to get as much pleasure out of life as possible whether that mean sex, drugs, whatever. Or you take the possition of Epicurius and try to avoid any large pleasure because then there is pain (ie getting drunk is a pleasure but then there is the hangover). What I'm saying is that people today just spend their lives sitting on a fence not really caring what they believe, they think it will all just work out in the end so they drift through life. You have to spend time Now figuring out why you are here and drawing your own conclusions so you can spend your life living it to the fullest, living for heaven or for earthly pleasures. I myself am a firm Catholic and a theology major so i've done alot of research on religion. I was not 'brainwashed' by any parent or anything, i came to my own conclusions seeing that living out my faith brought me happiness while living a life without it did not. I did not feel complete or happy living with no God. So now I'm trying to live for heaven.
snex
Smash Master
you arent brainwashed and yet you still have the ignorant painting of all atheists as sex-crazed drug-abusing fiends? good job avoiding that catholic brainwashing. maybe you should study up on your sociology and youll realize that people acting morally has nothing to do with religion.
Jigzzz
Smash Rookie
I'm sorry snex, I guess I didnt properly present my point. I of course do not believe that atheists are sex-crazed drug fiends. My best friend, who is an athiest, does not have sex or do drugs and some of the most intellectual people on earth are atheists. My point was that if you believe humans are not headed for an afterlife, than what are they to do except to strive to the most pleasure while on earth (or the least pain) because then they would live life to the fullest. Is it not ony common sense to try and make the most of the situation so the situation for an athiest is to gain earthly goods, whether that be money or knowledge while on earth. So I was just trying to say that i think it makes sense to figure out what you believe life is all about now so you can go about gaining the most knowledge, having the most sex, making the most money, or maybe just making the most friends if thats what you think is the answer because then later on in life you can look back and consider your life a success. Sorry if this doesnt make sense and im sorry if it was taken to mean the wrong thing before.
On the other point, I do not quite understand how morals could develope when there is no God or religion. For example, is it right to kill a two year old child? Most people would say no and that would seem horrible but Peter Singer, a philosophy teacher at Princeton believes it should be allowed because the intellect of the children has not formed [and he has got quite a following now]. So then do you just follow the morals of the land you live in? Is there truly a line where things can be drawn and if so where and why? The reality is that there is no standard to morality. The Romans thought large public homosexual orgies and killing all babies with deformaties were perfectly normal. So I ask how do these morals form out of society. What makes killing wrong? I believe that God sets the standards and that they should not be broken, but I would truly like to know the position of an atheist so a clear response would be much appreciated. This basis of morals in sociology sounds intrigueing.
On the other point, I do not quite understand how morals could develope when there is no God or religion. For example, is it right to kill a two year old child? Most people would say no and that would seem horrible but Peter Singer, a philosophy teacher at Princeton believes it should be allowed because the intellect of the children has not formed [and he has got quite a following now]. So then do you just follow the morals of the land you live in? Is there truly a line where things can be drawn and if so where and why? The reality is that there is no standard to morality. The Romans thought large public homosexual orgies and killing all babies with deformaties were perfectly normal. So I ask how do these morals form out of society. What makes killing wrong? I believe that God sets the standards and that they should not be broken, but I would truly like to know the position of an atheist so a clear response would be much appreciated. This basis of morals in sociology sounds intrigueing.
snex
Smash Master
like you said, different societies have different morals. that right there is enough to prove that god has nothing to do with it. people might SAY that their morals were dictated by god (or gods), but in reality god is just an enforcement. why would god tell the romans to kill babies and have orgies but tell the jews something totally different? or why would god ignore the romans and force them to fend for themselves? morality is formed out of necessity of a society. according to roman morality, if "deformed babies" were allowed to survive, then the wealth of rome would fall. therefore it must be moral to kill those babies. this is because the wealth of rome is what is important to the society.
in today's society, the rights of others to live is important, and thus we think it is wrong to kill babies.
i also find it interesting that you picked things that disagree with our current morality because they are brutal/disgusting/whatever. but just look at the things our society considers moral. circumcision, piercings, etc.
eh sorry for the disorganization. if you want it from a professional i can recommend some stuff to read.
in today's society, the rights of others to live is important, and thus we think it is wrong to kill babies.
i also find it interesting that you picked things that disagree with our current morality because they are brutal/disgusting/whatever. but just look at the things our society considers moral. circumcision, piercings, etc.
eh sorry for the disorganization. if you want it from a professional i can recommend some stuff to read.
CahPhoenix
Smash Journeyman
After reading the last few posts(may not have enough info to form a good response) I would like to say to Snex. If there is a god, how the **** would you be able to comprehend the reasons behind its actions/infuences. What makes you think you or anyone else on this world is qualified to do so? Conjecture is fine, but you definitely can't prove anything.
snex
Smash Master
cah, i can use logic to find contradictions in certain dogma (dogmas?). god cannot defy the laws of logic, no matter what your priest/pastor/rabbi/brahmin tells you.
CahPhoenix
Smash Journeyman
So...what your saying is the being, that exists atm for discussion purposes, that created everything we know or think today cannot defy his own creations? Why is it you think a god would be bound by the same type of thinking we are? I for one am not a part of any type of structured religion, so this is not coming from anyone else but myself. Logic is definitely a valid way of proving things, and for all worldly purposes will be right everytime if the facts are straight. But, this being is a god right...why can't it have the ability to take away our natural laws. I mean, it did give them to us in the first place.
Edit: This may not be totally on topic so I won't post again unless someone wants another reply. Also, sorry to snex my first post seems a little harsh after I read it again.
Edit: This may not be totally on topic so I won't post again unless someone wants another reply. Also, sorry to snex my first post seems a little harsh after I read it again.
snex
Smash Master
logic is not a natural law. logic is beyond nature. p & ~p is false no matter what the circumstances are, and no god can change that.
Lumbro
Smash Ace
I disagree. There's no reason to believe that it be necessary that a being must follow the logic that we would suppose it created. It doesn't make sense, but then why should it? However, we have good reason to believe that in this case (Judeo-Christian God) He must follow the logical rules of His own universe. Why?
If God does not have to follow logic, then there is absolutely no reason, no excuse, that suffering should ever exist. Current religious text argues that God loves us all, wants us to be happy, prosper. So why isn't every single person happy? This is what is generally known as the "Problem of Evil" as an argument against God.
If God must follow the logical rules of his own universe, then reasons can be imagined why suffering must exist. Perhaps suffering is a necessity of existence in order to experience joy. Perhaps suffering is a way to learn to appreciate the happiness. Maybe a lot of suffering comes from free will (although this would only partially explain away suffering) There are several arguments that can be made that suffering is sometimes a logical and necessary consequence of existence.
However, if God does not need to follow the rules of His own universe, then there is absolutely no excuse for the Problem of Evil. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should ever suffer because any value or good or cause or anything that would make evil a part of the world could be removed, even if such an action would contradict basic notions we have about logic. Any part of God's plan that involved suffering of any part should be nonexistent if He can change the universe to His will even at the expense of logical requirements.
However, we know suffering exists. this means that either:
a) God does not exist (as an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good creator of the universe)
b) God exists but He is not an all-good being, because he allows suffering despite when He could change it even at the expense of logical necessity but chooses not to.
or
c) God is subjected to laws of logic, so some evils are either necessary consequences of reality or required for a greater good in His plan. He has the power to do anything that is physically possible/impossible but not logically impossible.
Generally this means that if you believe in God you choose option C because it allows solutions to the Problem of Evil while maintaining a general notion of the meaning of the idea "God." Sure you can argue that God can act against logical possibility, but you'll be left with no options of allowing anything bad to happen. Ever.
I hope this was helpful.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
To Everyone
Its not God thats causing these problems. Its the Devil. The world that we are living in now, is a test of faith from God. This is a test to see whos righteous and unrighteous. The Devil is the misleader. And God allows for these things to happen cause its a test to our faith. God loving evil people would just be wrong. Thats why he is testing us. Then when the day of Armaggedon comes, the righteous will be saved, the unrighteous will die. Marking a New Era. Then from then on the Righteous will live forever on Earth, and any Righteous ones who died in the past will be ressurected from the dead.
Most Religions believe in Heaven and H3ll, but they are wrong. The Righteous will not be in heaven, they will be on a Paradise Earth. I mean are you guys actually going to believe a gay priest? j/k
Its not God thats causing these problems. Its the Devil. The world that we are living in now, is a test of faith from God. This is a test to see whos righteous and unrighteous. The Devil is the misleader. And God allows for these things to happen cause its a test to our faith. God loving evil people would just be wrong. Thats why he is testing us. Then when the day of Armaggedon comes, the righteous will be saved, the unrighteous will die. Marking a New Era. Then from then on the Righteous will live forever on Earth, and any Righteous ones who died in the past will be ressurected from the dead.
Most Religions believe in Heaven and H3ll, but they are wrong. The Righteous will not be in heaven, they will be on a Paradise Earth. I mean are you guys actually going to believe a gay priest? j/k
Lumbro
Smash Ace
Calibur Champ, you completely missed the point.
Look, you can make up reasons why evil exists. But if God can defy logic, and loves everyone, then it's impossible to come up with a reason why He allows suffering/evil to exist. Try to come up with reasons, but you'll always run into the problem that your reason doesn't apply because it's based on some logical principle that God could change at will. Saying "It's not God, it's the Devil" doesn't mean anything to a God that can alter laws of logic.
If God can defy logic then there's no need for a devil to test faith. Faith could be tested without testing faith, such is the nature of defying logic.
Are you actually saying God doesn't love everybody? I think your Bible would disagree. Besides, if God can defy logic then he can make it so that loving an evil person is self-evidently a good act.
Is this at all relevant to anything?
Look, you can make up reasons why evil exists. But if God can defy logic, and loves everyone, then it's impossible to come up with a reason why He allows suffering/evil to exist. Try to come up with reasons, but you'll always run into the problem that your reason doesn't apply because it's based on some logical principle that God could change at will. Saying "It's not God, it's the Devil" doesn't mean anything to a God that can alter laws of logic.
snex
Smash Master
lumbro perhaps you should put a little more thought into the idea that god could possibly defy logic. ill give an example.
i, as god, create a universe where the proposition "p & ~p" is true. now, if we create a proposition "q" where "q" is equivalent to "p & ~p," "q" should be true. now, by applying our original rule to "q", we get "q & ~q" or "(p & ~p) & ~(p & ~p)." what does this mean, exactly? it means that by applying the rule that i, god, created, i just disproved that rule! thus the rule cannot exist because it contradicts itself. god cannot change that.
remember, logic deals with completely abstract ideas, so no previous assumptions are being made. logic has no creator, nor can it have one. it exists of its own nature, without the necessity of matter or energy. hey, sounds a lot like god himself, huh? logic is also the path to salvation, and i suggest certain members back here start to follow it. (not directed at you lumbro)
i, as god, create a universe where the proposition "p & ~p" is true. now, if we create a proposition "q" where "q" is equivalent to "p & ~p," "q" should be true. now, by applying our original rule to "q", we get "q & ~q" or "(p & ~p) & ~(p & ~p)." what does this mean, exactly? it means that by applying the rule that i, god, created, i just disproved that rule! thus the rule cannot exist because it contradicts itself. god cannot change that.
remember, logic deals with completely abstract ideas, so no previous assumptions are being made. logic has no creator, nor can it have one. it exists of its own nature, without the necessity of matter or energy. hey, sounds a lot like god himself, huh? logic is also the path to salvation, and i suggest certain members back here start to follow it. (not directed at you lumbro)
Singing Guy
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2004
- Messages
- 32
Snex: I believe the point Lumbro is trying to make is that "god" can avoid contradictions by altering the rules of logic. "God" could make it so that contradictions couldn't exist. We think that such a concept is impossible, obviously, but only because of the logic that exists in our world today.
If "god" really had the power to, He could MAKE "p & ~p" be true, by making all possible contradictions true too. You can disprove "p & ~p" using the logic that exists in OUR world, but if "god" changed the logic, then "our" logic wouldn't exist to disprove it.
We all know that 1 =/= 2. But "god" could concievably change logic so that 1 = 2, and nothing we'd be able to do would be able to disprove that.
If "god" really had the power to, He could MAKE "p & ~p" be true, by making all possible contradictions true too. You can disprove "p & ~p" using the logic that exists in OUR world, but if "god" changed the logic, then "our" logic wouldn't exist to disprove it.
We all know that 1 =/= 2. But "god" could concievably change logic so that 1 = 2, and nothing we'd be able to do would be able to disprove that.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
"If God can defy logic then there's no need for a devil to test faith. Faith could be tested without testing faith, such is the nature of defying logic."
Well, God can read hearts. But you are missing the point. Not every human on Earth is good to God. Do you think God would love a child rapist? I hope you say no. God does hate anyone evil, but if they repent and God sees that they have a good heart now, he will accept him. But then there are people who love doing what is bad, and those people are hated by him. Remember the story of Noah's Ark? Noah was the only righteous man on the Earth along with his family. The world was filled with violence cause of these hybrid people called Nephilim. Nephilim were part human part demon you can say. And that was unnatural to the laws of nature. So God brought forth a flood to wipe out all the evil on the Earth, Noah and his family were saved though because they were righteous. Likewise today, violence and ungodliness is spreading, the world is losing its good values. God hates what is bad, but loves the righteous ones so much that he gave up Jesus. I hope that will shine some light through that skull.
Well, God can read hearts. But you are missing the point. Not every human on Earth is good to God. Do you think God would love a child rapist? I hope you say no. God does hate anyone evil, but if they repent and God sees that they have a good heart now, he will accept him. But then there are people who love doing what is bad, and those people are hated by him. Remember the story of Noah's Ark? Noah was the only righteous man on the Earth along with his family. The world was filled with violence cause of these hybrid people called Nephilim. Nephilim were part human part demon you can say. And that was unnatural to the laws of nature. So God brought forth a flood to wipe out all the evil on the Earth, Noah and his family were saved though because they were righteous. Likewise today, violence and ungodliness is spreading, the world is losing its good values. God hates what is bad, but loves the righteous ones so much that he gave up Jesus. I hope that will shine some light through that skull.
Singing Guy
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2004
- Messages
- 32
But if God truly does hate what's bad, and he has the power to make bad people good, why doesn't he?
He has the power to, we've established that already.
He has the power to, we've established that already.
Why do you ask for reasons if you accept the premise that God can defy logic?
I really don't have any regrets about being Christian. Besides, look at it this way: Even if there is no God, then we have still adhered to a set of rules that generally promote being a good person. In the end, I believe in God because of a miracle that happened in my life earlier. I do not like to debate religion, but I could not help but chime in this time. Think about it this way Lumbro, God creates reasoning, which he can alter as he pleases, and you are trying to use reasoning that he created to disprove him? Pointing out logical contradictions doesn't disprove God.
I think that most Christians would disagree with you there. According to them, God would love the rapist, while at the same time hating the evil he had done and condemning him for it.
Once again, I think most Christians would say that God was only doing what was necessary. They don't think God wanted to wipe out all those people, merely that he was forced to do so by circumstance.
Of course, I think that's all a bunch of BS, but I can endure the delusions of others.
You could follow those same rules without believing in God.
Magic School Bus does have a point there.
Anyway, where have you been? I've had to hold the fort alone. It's tough being a solitary *******. Oh yeah, Crono helped some.
On that note, I notice that since you transformed into the Magic School Bus you haven't been enough of an *******. Where did it go?
snex
Smash Master
singing guy, look again at my example. by assuming that "p & ~p" is true, we arrive at the conclusion that "p & ~p" is FALSE. there is NO other conclusion that can be brought about. lets give some values to our propositions so that you can see this. lets say the proposition "p" is equivalent to the statement "god exists."
now, if god decides to make the proposition "p & ~p" TRUE, the proposition "god exists and god does not exist" evaluates as TRUE. this means that god exists at the same time that he does not exist. furthermore, it also implies that "god exists and god does not exist" is FALSE. that means that while god is shuffling his existence and non-existence, he really isnt.
the only way you can possibly refute this is by saying "god can define logic in such a way that none of these contradictions happen." but then he isnt really changing logic, but rather the symbols that represent it.
if we assume that god exists, then he cannot change logic, because doing so would prove that he doesnt exist.
now, if god decides to make the proposition "p & ~p" TRUE, the proposition "god exists and god does not exist" evaluates as TRUE. this means that god exists at the same time that he does not exist. furthermore, it also implies that "god exists and god does not exist" is FALSE. that means that while god is shuffling his existence and non-existence, he really isnt.
the only way you can possibly refute this is by saying "god can define logic in such a way that none of these contradictions happen." but then he isnt really changing logic, but rather the symbols that represent it.
if we assume that god exists, then he cannot change logic, because doing so would prove that he doesnt exist.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Okay people you are not being simply understandable. And God does not control us. We are not his puppets, we are our own people with our own decisions and God doesnt want to take that freedom away from us. This world we are living in is a test to outr faith. And God's spirit only help those who do his will. God does not bless the evil, if they repent however, and are sincere, then God will forgive them. But wow, I am SO surprised that someone said that God loves a child rapist. Well God doesnt love the Child Rapist unless he repents for his sins and is sincere about it, thats the only exception. God hates everything that is bad. If God took control over us, what would be the point of this test of faith then? Thats just like someone giving you answers on the test. The only way to pass this test is to live by Bible Standards.
And the story about Noah IS NOT BS! Its in the Bible dude! When I get home I will tell you the scripture. And BTW, I use the New Translation Bible, not the outdated Old Testament. And Im also a Christian.
And the story about Noah IS NOT BS! Its in the Bible dude! When I get home I will tell you the scripture. And BTW, I use the New Translation Bible, not the outdated Old Testament. And Im also a Christian.
Lumbro
Smash Ace
Exactly, thanks.
You're using logic that exists now to argue against God. IF God has complete control over what logical rules exist, or what logical rules He has to follow, then "p & ~p" could be both true and false because what dictates truth/false is based in logic. IF God has complete control over logic He does not have to follow any logical statement you make about Him. I know it doesn't follow logic, I know it arrives at contradictions in current logic, and it's supposed to.
I don't follow you. If we're working under the hypothetical in which God can alter logic at will, why then wouldn't he be actually changing logic and not just the symbols?
I agree with that part of the conclusion.
That's kinda the point. I'm saying reason doesn't apply if you're working with that assumption.
At the moment I'm not trying to disprove God in general. That was the point of my post 2 posts back. I stated early in the post "However, we have good reason to believe that in this case (Judeo-Christian God) He must follow the logical rules of His own universe." I am trying to disprove the claim that if God exists then He can do things that are logically impossible. (Like make a rock to heavy for himself to lift, stuff like that.) If He could then the Problem of Evil would be insurmountable. You couldn't come up with a reason why evil or suffering would be a necessary part of existence because God could always alter the rules of logic so as to make it unnecessary. Since evil/suffering exist, God(defined as omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator) cannot defy logic.
Eh, I've had mono recently, and being an ******* takes energy. I've just been kinda slogging through Forum games and making sparce posts. I'll be back when I'm better.
Believing in a higher power doesn't hurt anything. I mean, it teaches some humility.
We Christians believe that God can do anything He wants, even things that are beyond our comprehension. Just because it is a paradox in our mind doesn't mean He cannot do it.
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