The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature

[CaliburChamp]

My arguement OWNZ ALL! ^_^
You guys really love using that word "logic" alot. Logic this, Logic that. True, there is a logical statement for everything, but its hard to understand what you guys are talking about. Your complicating things. God doesnt control all logic, humans and animals are capable enough to make their own logic. Just like everyone has their own opinions. If God did control our Logic we would be perfect beings. We have our freedom of choice, to do what is good or what is bad thats why God doesnt control us. Controlling us wouldnt be a test of faith. And some people have more of an inclination to do what is bad than others do, which will be a fatal fall for them when that time comes.

 

[snex]

lumbro, the only assumption that was made in my example is that god changed the value of the statement "p & ~p." the rest of logic remains the same. in this case, he has disproved his own existence, and he has in fact proven that he cannot even change logic (apply both propositions to the assumption). the fact is, god cannot change logic without completely reworking the entire structure of it, and in that case, he really doesnt change anything except the symbols.

to clarify, if god changed the value of the statement "p & ~p" so that it was true, he would have to change everything else until it no longer created contradictions, in which case he would have the exact same logic that already exists.

calibur, please graduate grade school before you participate in a debate that is way over your head. im not trying to insult you here, but debating with you over this is like trying to convince a 5 year old that santa claus doesnt exist. the bible is not a valid reference as it is a biased source, and you have no proof that it is valid outside of the bible itself.

 

[CaliburChamp]

The Bible doesnt lie, cause God does not lie!So why look for another source, the Bible is the best source for the answer to your questions. So why look to imperfect man for the source of the answer? It will only mislead you. And no, I am quite capable of intelligent speech especially when it comes to Religion. Im a Minister that preaches to people with the amount of knowledge I know about the Bible. I kid you not.

 

[Mediocre]

The Bible doesnt lie, cause God does not lie!

How do I know God does not lie? Even assuming I did know this, how would I know that the Bible was the word of God?

Calibur Champ, you have to realize that not everyone has your idiotic blind faith in the Bible. Some people have idiotic faith in other books, and some people don't have faith in any.

Not everyone accepts things such as these without proof.

Snex, according to Christianity, God is omnipotent. In other words, he can do whatever the **** he wants. This means that he could eat a quiche without eating a quiche, and other such obvious logical contradictions. He's supposed to be allpowerful, remember?

So, what I'm saying is that you cannot disprove the existance of any omnipotent entity, because they can defy all proof, even logic.

All the more reason to acknowledge that God is bull****.

Quiche:

 

[snex]

All the more reason to acknowledge that God is bull****.

exactly my point. if i told you that i, snex, could defy logic, you would either conclude that i was lying or that i did not exist.

 

[Superbus]

Not everyone accepts things such as these without proof.

And that is what makes us Christian and you Atheist.

 

[Mediocre]

And that is what makes us Christian and you Atheist.

Yes.

Vive la difference!

 

[Superbus]

Yup, and that is why this debate is rather pointless, because no side can prove the other wrong.

 

[snex]

not true superbus. the general "god" cannot be proven wrong, but specific gods can be. a god that defies logic is proven to be wrong, just as an omnipotent god cannot coexist with free will. both of these are aspects of the christian god, and therefore prove it wrong.

furthermore, there is nothing to "prove wrong" about atheism. atheism simply means the disbelief in a theistic being. it does not mean the belief in the negation of that being.

for example, i dont believe in elves, but that doesnt mean that i believe that elves dont exist. it brings up that fun logic stuff again, ~((p -> q) -> (q -> p)) i.e. an implication does not imply its converse implication.

 

[Mediocre]

Once again snex, you fail to understand. If God is omnipotent, he can defy logic. Illogic and omnipotence are not a good combination.

 

[snex]

no, mediocre, he cannot. by assuming an omnipotent god exists, you arrive at the conclusion that such a god cannot exist. therefore, he is not omnipotent. its called proof by contradiction. you somehow think that given the initial assumption "god can defy logic," nothing else will be effected by this.

if i told you "this statement is false" would you say that it was true or that it was false? according to the way you are arguing over god, you would say that it was false. however, you cannot simply end it there, you must take it to its conclusions, which in this case (and the case of a god that can defy logic) leads to a contradiction.

 

[Mediocre]

If God can defy logic, snex, you cannot use logic to disprove God. 'Tis only logical.

 

[snex]

if you can explain how god can defy logic without disproving his own existence (or his ability to defy logic) i will give you $100.

 

[Super Akuma]

Heh

if you can explain how god can defy logic without disproving his own existence (or his ability to defy logic) i will give you $100.

God'th logic ith different.

If God can defy logic, snex, you cannot use logic to disprove God. 'Tis only logical.

Yay! Circular logic rocks!!!!!!

Um, is the debate that God can be disproven by logic? That's ridiculous. How do you know that God's not making you think that? Really. How? Can you prove it? Even then, that proof could be purposely falsified. It's perpetually-receding logic. It never ends. Beware the logic.

IN BOB WE TRUST!!!!!

 

[snex]

no bulbax, if you READ it, the debate is that god cannot defy logic, because by doing so, he proves that he cannot defy logic (or that he doesnt exist, both work).

 

[Super Akuma]

Heh

no bulbax, if you READ it, the debate is that god cannot defy logic, because by doing so, he proves that he cannot defy logic (or that he doesnt exist, both work).

Readings for commies and Republicans.

Hehe, where's the logic in that debate? This is fun.

 

[Superbus]

the debate is that god cannot defy logic

You don't understand, just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it impossible to an ALL POWERFUL God.

 

[snex]

"making sense" is not relative. if it doesnt make sense, it doesnt make sense to me, or to an ALL POWERFUL god. you dont seem to understand this.

look, if god changed logic, there are still rules that apply (namely his changed ones). if, by using his own changed rules, you can prove a contradiction, those rules DO NOT MAKE SENSE.

 

[Crono]

*ahem*

God can only be as powerful as logically possible, and, considering he's assumed to be omnibenevolent on top of omnipotent, God cannot do anything he desires. God cannot sin. God cannot do anything remotely bad. God must always carry out the greatest possible good. Therefore, God's freedom is limited. He himself is controlled by his own characteristic. Mmm... God lacks free will. Interesting.

And God simply can't break logic. No matter what, a sphere is not a cube. God could change the name, but intrinsically, the sphere will never have 6 square faces.

God's power has limits, and that's all there is to it.

 

[Superbus]

you dont seem to understand this.

No, you don't understand my point.

those rules DO NOT MAKE SENSE.

They do not have to make sense, he is God.

And God simply can't break logic. No matter what, a sphere is not a cube

God could make a sphere a cube.

considering he's assumed to be omnibenevolent on top of omnipotent, God cannot do anything he desires. God cannot sin. God cannot do anything remotely bad. God must always carry out the greatest possible good. Therefore, God's freedom is limited. He himself is controlled by his own characteristic. Mmm... God lacks free will. Interesting.

Whatever God does is not a sin, that's why He's God. When God does something horrible (ie fire and brimstone) we deserved it. It is all part of His plan.

God's power has limits, and that's all there is to it.

Well, why don't you tell him that?

 

[Mediocre]

God's power has limits, and that's all there is to it.

So you're saying an all powerful God has limits to its power? That, in itself, is illogical.

Really, this debate is rediculous. No matter how you look at it, an omnipotent God is a logical contradiction. An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God just raises more contradictions.

All the more reason to accept that God is bull**** and move on.

 

[Superbus]

All the more reason to accept that God is bull**** and move on.

We agree on a lot of things, but this isn't one of them. I just don't see anything wrong with believing in a higher being. Worst case scenario, you're wrong, there is no God, your soul floats off into nothingness. Best case scenario, you die and go to paradise. Not seeing the downside. Anyways, my belief in God is strengthened by a personal incident I had a few years ago, so your not changing my mind.

 

[Mediocre]

Worst case scenario, you're wrong, there is no God, your soul floats off into nothingness.

Worst case scenario, I've lived and believed a lie my entire life.

Anyways, my belief in God is strengthened by a personal incident I had a few years ago, so your not changing my mind.

That's fine by me. I'm not really out to change your mind.

 

[Superbus]

That's fine by me. I'm not really out to change your mind.

That's why this debate is pointless. Serisouly, neither side can win. BTW, Mediocre, eat **** and die. Yep I'm feeling better.

 

[Crono]

You have such a wonderful system of debate, Superbus. God could make a sphere a cube! Wow! Suddenly I'm having a revelation at your outstanding conclusion! You've got me ****ing convinced. Praise Allah.

Pascal's Wager doesn't usually work, either. Sorry.

Look, Superbus. I'm only arguing using the assumptions established by the dogma itself. If God is omnibenevolent, then he is intrinsically good, and it is 100% contradictory to say that God can do any action besides the one that produces the greatest possible good. There is no way around it. If God doesn't do the absolute greatest good, then he is not omnibenevolent. And if he isn't omnibenevolent, then HE ISN'T GOD.

 

[Superbus]

If God is omnibenevolent, then he is intrinsically good, and it is 100% contradictory to say that God can do any action besides the one that produces the greatest possible good

But everything he does is for the greatest good. Just because we don't think so, doesn't make it not true.

Pascal's Wager doesn't usually work, either. Sorry.

Don't know what that is, but thanks for the advice.

God could make a sphere a cube!

Yes he can.

Anyways, God can do anything, no matter if it makes sense or not. Up can become down, black can become white, opened can become shut. After all, he established the rules that govern everything, so why couldn't he redo them?

 

[Crono]

Actually, I could make a sphere a cube. But a sphere cannot be shaped like what we know as a sphere and be a cube at the same time. I don't mean semantically; I mean physically. It is a logical impossibility that cannot be overcome. The moment God would alter the state, its definition changes. Logically, a sphere can never be a cube.

Everything God does is the greatest good. Therefore, he has no choice in his own actions. He is basically programmed to do the greatest good. God has no free will.

Superbus, which is it? God either doesn't always carry out the greatest good (and thusly is not omnibenevolent), or he has no free will (and thusly is not omnipotent). God's omnibenevolence and omnipotence cannot coexist.

 

[Superbus]

It is a logical impossibility that cannot be overcome.

Except by someone who is almighty.

Superbus, which is it? God either doesn't always carry out the greatest good (and thusly is not omnibenevolent), or he has no free will (and thusly is not omnipotent). God's omnibenevolence and omnipotence cannot coexist.

Neither. God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, but at the same time he is free to choose as he wishes. Once again, just because you, Crono, cannot fathom it, doesn't mean that an all powerful being cannot.

 

[Crono]

Oh yes sir. Let's all just be playing frisbee and not playing frisbee at the same ****ing time. Dense ****head.

 

[Superbus]

My that was quick.

Oh yes sir. Let's all just be playing frisbee and not playing frisbee at the same ****ing time.

If God wished.

Dense ****head

No.

 

[McFox]

I've been reading through this debate, and I really only have one comment to make (seeing as how religious debates are stupid):

Superbus - You are blindly accepting everything the Catholic (I'm assuming Catholic anyway) church throws at you. I haven't seen an original thought by you anywhere in this topic. What if it was suddenly found in the Bible that God thought that the killing of all the first-born (Angel of Death) was actually good, and that it should be encouraged today. Would you follow it? How can you not? You're blindly devoted to the fact that everything the Catholic church has ever/will ever say is absolute law. But what if killing babies doesn't sound right to you?

I'm saying, don't listen to me, don't even listen to Crono or Mediocre or anyone else with real arguments against God. Just try thinking for yourself.

For instance, one of my biggest problems with the Catholic church is that women can't be priests, and that priests can't be married. I've asked several priests why, and the best answer I received was from the second-in-command priest of my family's church, who said:

Because none of the apostles were women.

Well, this is inherently stupid for a number of reasons.

1) When did Jesus say women could not spread his word?

2) Actually, he said quite the opposite, when the Holy Spirit visited Mary the mother and Mary Magdalene along with the apostles (assuming we're buying into the Bible here anyway).

3) While not officially an apostle, Mary Magdalene made most of Jesus' journeys with him (the best I can make of her story is that she was financing Jesus' journeys, a theory conveyed to me by my sophomore year Theology teacher (I go to a Catholic school)).

Yet according to you, because you believe everything the church has interpreted God to say, women should not be allowed to be leaders in the church. So I'm asking, can you give me a reason why you believe this?

My great-aunt is a "priest" in the Episcopal church, and I think that's great (despite my increasing atheism). It's too bad no Catholic women have that chance.

Like I said, that is just one of my many problems with the church.

Please, do yourself a favor and think.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Mediocre, please stop posting completely irrelevant photos, thank you.

Originally posted by McFox
(the best I can make of her story is that she was financing Jesus' journeys, a theory conveyed to me by my sophomore year Theology teacher (I go to a Catholic school)).

Nah, she was probably his **** buddy.

 

[Mediocre]

Crono, you ain't gonna win this one. Christians take it as a given that God can prevert logic. Therefore, there is no logical way to prove to a Christian that God does not exist. As far as I know, there is no way to prove an omnipotent God does not exist, except logic, which the Christians say is invalid.

In summary: God is a bunch of bull****, but no one can possibly prove it. Give it up.

Mediocre, please stop posting completely irrelevant photos, thank you.

BBT, do you love me?

 

[CaliburChamp]

Forget the Logic ****. You cant comprehend such Logic because you dont know God, you aetheist's. Thats why you are aetheist's, you believe in the scientific ways of the Big Bang? God created all things, you are SO blind if you cannot recognize that. God is All powerful! He can do anything he pleases, but you got to remember that he is a perfect being, and doesnt do anything that contradicts his own will, like lying to us. Gods greatest quality is Love, and it would be unloving if he lied, so its not logical. YOur argument failed miserably. I prove my point is the greatest proof in the world, the Bible. When your proof is your own stupid ideas, you are just another imperfect human being like us. But the Bible speaks the truth, even though it was written by men, God spoke through the man to do so. God has the power to speak through man. He doesnt do so now, because the Bible has been completed, the Bible is our guide to life now. Where's your guide to life, you aetheists?

 

[Mediocre]

God created all things, you are SO blind if you cannot recognize that.

So, what, exactly, does your belief in God rest on? What are you seeing that we aren't?

I prove my point is the greatest proof in the world, the Bible... the Bible speaks the truth, even though it was written by men, God spoke through the man to do so.

How do you know this? I understand that your parents and the clergy told you this, but how can you know that they are not mistaken?

Where's your guide to life, you aetheists?

You seem to think calling us atheists is an insult. Next time you try to insult us by calling us atheists, you can at least spell it right.

Anyhow, I think that most atheists do have a "guide to life." Most atheists believe in right and wrong. Most believe in morals.

Atheists do not believe that morality stems from God, but that morality comes from humans. Therefore, atheists are free to create their own "guide to life," instead of blindly following what they are told by the bible or the clergy.

CaliburChamp, stop making unfounded assumptions about the nature of atheism. Atheism does not preclude morality, and your assumption that it does demonstrates your prejudice and ignorance.

 

[NJE789]

Originally posted by CaliburChamp
Forget the Logic ****. You cant comprehend such Logic because you dont know God, you aetheist's. Thats why you are aetheist's, you believe in the scientific ways of the Big Bang? God created all things, you are SO blind if you cannot recognize that. God is All powerful! He can do anything he pleases, but you got to remember that he is a perfect being, and doesnt do anything that contradicts his own will, like lying to us. Gods greatest quality is Love, and it would be unloving if he lied, so its not logical. YOur argument failed miserably. I prove my point is the greatest proof in the world, the Bible. When your proof is your own stupid ideas, you are just another imperfect human being like us. But the Bible speaks the truth, even though it was written by men, God spoke through the man to do so. God has the power to speak through man. He doesnt do so now, because the Bible has been completed, the Bible is our guide to life now. Where's your guide to life, you aetheists?

..Ok kids, today's big words are "Asinine", "Brain-washed", and "Zealot". ..Try to put them all in one sentence. Hint: Describe Calibur

 

[Superbus]

Just try thinking for yourself

Oh I do, it isn't blindly accepting. It is merely the assumption

that God can prevert logic

which leads to the conclusion:

Therefore, there is no logical way to prove to a Christian that God does not exist.

Now, the next issue:

blindly devoted to the fact that everything the Catholic church has ever/will ever say is absolute law

Nope, thats not true either. I merely agree with them on the Almighty part.

In fact, here is a list of things I disagree with our church on:

1. Women should be priests.
2. Congressman who support abortion should take communion.
3. Abortion is ok up until a certain point in development.
4. Gay people are not sinners.

See, the Bible was written by men and thus is not perfect, same goes for Church Dogma. Want to see what I mean? Read Leviticus (which no one should EVER take seriously). But the point is, I still believe in an omnipotent being.

 

[CaliburChamp]

So, what, exactly, does your belief in God rest on? What are you seeing that we aren't?

Basically because of creation. There is always a maker to something, nothing can just pop out of thin air. There had to be a great mind knowing how expanse the universe is and knowing how things work so well together in nature. Why is it that the Earth is the only planet that has water? How is it that we have the right amount of gravity on the Earth? All these things are not consequences, there is a great mind behind it all. Ignoring God is like ignoring the very creation around you.

How do you know this? I understand that your parents and the clergy told you this, but how can you know that they are not mistaken?

Ever heard of Bible Prophecies? The Bible did foretell that violence would spread throughout the earth, and that there would be food shortages, earthquakes, etc. A modern day prophecy that has just happened and happening is the fact of these events rising in occurences, and it will only get worse until the day of Armaggedon comes. We have evidence of this from World War 1 and 2 for example. I can even remember that in the past 10 years I lived, people didnt worry as much as now with kidnappings and other things.

Atheists do not believe that morality stems from God, but that morality comes from humans. Therefore, atheists are free to create their own "guide to life," instead of blindly following what they are told by the bible or the clergy.

I dont go by the Clergy, not my religion, the Clergy just want money and power like all evilness in this world today, the Clergy make there own rules, they mislead people to their own interpretation of the Bible, maybe thats why you dont believe in God. And yes, no one seems to have the right idea of morality anymore, this is man's government we are living in not Gods government, therefore the morality of the world is messed up. The Bible is like a Map, if you dont have the map with you, your going to go the wrong way, leading you into the path of destruction. And dont rely on your imperfect human instincts, you need guidance to show you the way. If you dont think of God, God wont think about you, meaning that your already taking the wrong road that leads to destruction.
No offense for this, just trying to make you think of what you are doing to yourself. Dont let Pride get to you, it can be a killer.

 

[Mediocre]

Basically because of creation. There is always a maker to something, nothing can just pop out of thin air.

I don't know of many people who think that. Most atheists I know think that the universe has always existed, and always will exist. We think matter and time are eternal, not God.

Ever heard of Bible Prophecies?

Ever heard of citations? They would be helpful.

maybe thats why you dont believe in God.

I don't believe in God because my parents don't believe in God. This is not to say that my parents tried to get me to be atheistic; they didn't.

No offense for this, just trying to make you think of what you are doing to yourself.

Why would I take offense at that? You're trying to help me, although I think you are grossly misguided.

Really, I try to follow two principles. I try to make myself happy, and to make other people happy. That's it.

Dont let Pride get to you, it can be a killer.

I would hardly call myself proud. I'm not.

 

[The Best Ever]

yah

Basically because of creation. There is always a maker to something, nothing can just pop out of thin air. There had to be a great mind knowing how expanse the universe is and knowing how things work so well together in nature. Why is it that the Earth is the only planet that has water? How is it that we have the right amount of gravity on the Earth?

I hope this doesn't make your logic circuits explode, but if there is always a maker.... Who made God? God always existing is just as nutty as the universe always existing.

And about the Earth things, did you think about it the other way? Maybe our water, weather and gravity aren't here becasue of us. Maybe we're here because this planet just happened to have the requirements to support life, so bam, life.

God is All powerful! He can do anything he pleases, but you got to remember that he is a perfect being, and doesnt do anything that contradicts his own will, like lying to us. Gods greatest quality is Love, and it would be unloving if he lied, so its not logical. YOur argument failed miserably. I prove my point is the greatest proof in the world, the Bible. When your proof is your own stupid ideas, you are just another imperfect human being like us. But the Bible speaks the truth, even though it was written by men, God spoke through the man to do so. God has the power to speak through man. He doesnt do so now, because the Bible has been completed, the Bible is our guide to life now.

Being all powerful as God is, I doubt you can tell us what he can and can't do. If God wants to lie, maybe God can lie, who are you to tell us what God's limitations and qualitites are?

Nice try on the cover-up with how God doesn't speak through people now, but did back in the day. How do you know? I mean seriously, if you're revolving the ideals of your life around this one book, it's all well and good. If the book isn't telling you to hurt anyone and to be better yourself, that's great. But I wouldn't take the bible as cold hard facts as much as moral guidelines.