The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature

[Bazooka Lucca]

Religious debate here. Mature posters only.

I basically wanna know what most aetheists hope to accomplish.

Do you guys think you'll change everyone by disproving anything bible related?

I see the christian's journey alot more - appealing - as in this. Christians try their hardest (or are commanded to) to go out and convert many people to their religion. They beleive by doing so - the new converts go to heaven (not **** ) (It's not that simple but - there it is in a nutshell). Aetheists on the other hand usually disreguard heaven and **** , am I right?

But what harm have the christians done to you guys that makes you wanna bash on them? They just beleive that you are going to **** and wouldn't like to see you burn there forever because they care for you. So if heaven is not true, whynot just ignore them and let them live their christian lifes? They aren't causing any harm doing so.

Now I'm not asking for a show of hands who agree with me, I just want a good religious arguement, and I am not in anyway bashing someone else's religion or "lack" of religion.

 

[Etched in a Box]

You would do well to understand our point-of-view.

Imagine that you just found out that you had been deceived your whole life. That you suddenly notice how simple everything is, and that a great number of people around you still follow theistic beliefs. Of course you're gonna be a bit angry. I admit that I made some remarks I shouldn't have in previous religious debates (sorry SnorSnor ). This is only temporary though; most will eventually stop trying to bash religion.

I guess what we hope to accomplish from pointing out flaws in the Bible is to give you guys some dignity. We are always under God, we are always sinners, we are always imperfect and nothing we can do would be appeasing to God. That isn't a very optimistic attitude toward the human race.

And one more thing that we would have against religion is how it must be involved in everything. Sometimes this is a good thing, but there are numerous times when it isn't. It can interfere with human progress.

I guess my first step toward becoming a non-believer was the principle of insignificance. Was Jesus with the Indians before the Europeans came over? Was Harnagwan with us Earthlings before the aliens came over? Are the two situations really all that different?

 

[Bob69]

I'm an athiest and I don't need to disprove anybody. If Christians want to believe in a dreamworld after death, I'll let them.

 

[Craftstar]

I think the Aetheists are annoyed with stereotypical Christians who are perfect brainless door to door salesmen (that would be Jehovah Witnesses). However, whatever point of view someone chooses to have is fine, and they should be allowed to have it, however bashing you think it may be. Personally, I don't like it to hear Aetheists bash Christians, it just doesn't seem fair, but I guess they are expecting the kind of Christian they see on TV- The stereotypical kind.

 

[Bazooka Lucca]

Well etched, I suppose I understand your point of veiw... You're kinda right about your optimism remark on "we are all sinners." Well, it's true, we've all done something bad. Basically christians see this and realize that there is consequences for sin, right? So they just wanna try to help. Some christians can be ignorant and turn others away from christianity. People like that ruin it for other christians. (Like people who force their religion)

 

[Etched in a Box]

Bazooka, thank you for reminding me. I was a Christian adrift in the bliss of conformity when my mother decided to push me too far. This was my first true step to atheism. Overnight she had gone from apathetic to pure brain-washed, and our house is now full of usual extremist propaganda and articles relating to a place called Medugorje. I could take it no longer. I wondered why such a benevolent God would want my mom to be as closed-minded as she is. For instance, I recently went to see Black Hawk Down (good movie, btw). Mother dearest decided she wanted to watch it as well, even though I warned her against it. After she returned, I asked her what she thought of the movie. She just jabbered on about how horrible war was and that a time of peace would come soon that she is looking forward to. She said nothing about the movie.

 

[ZeldaLots]

Okay, I'll open by saying that I'm an atheist who was raised (or is being raised) Catholic. Went to the Catholic private school and all that.

However, the atheistic people who bash on religion just for the **** of it piss me off. The difference between and you idiots and me is that I see the logic in religion, and its a perfectly respectable way of living; I just never really bought into it.

What do you think you are accomplishing by trying to "prove" stuff in the Bible untrue? Very few Christians will actually say that everything in the Bible is completely true and everything in there that Jesus is quoted to have said he actually said. The Bible is not meant to be interpreted literally, unlike, for example, the Qu'ran (sometimes), which is believed to be the direct word of God passed on to humans through the prophet Muhammed (spelling?).

Well anyways. I just think there are too many stupid people out there who bash the Bible.

Another interesting thing -- why are all the debates about Catholicism? No one complains about Judaism. I think that part of the hate towards Christianityhas to do with the fact that it is seen as the "big" religion. Sorta like why people hate Microsoft and Windows, maybe even the New York Yankess; they're the big companies (or teams), and people are SUPPOSED to hate them. It's part of human nature.

So. There's my little soapbox speech, I hope I proved to be a mature debator.

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: ZeldaLots ]</p>

 

[SnorSnor]

Hey, Etched it's ok :D There are times when I might just blow up on a person. Many times when writing up topics I just ask God to keep me calm and give me words to say :D

But actually, there are people who do please God with things they do.

1 Thessalonians 4:1 - Finally, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God, just as you are doing, you do so more and more.<hr></blockquote>

And,

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.<hr></blockquote>

And,

Hebrews 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.<hr></blockquote>

Very sorry if I'm attacking your topic. . . I just saw this and wanted to show that yes, it is possible to "appease" God even though we do bad things so many times in our lives

Cya :D

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[ZeldaLots]

I gotta admit, after reading ur stuff in a bunch of the religious debates SnorSnor, I'm really impressed. You make a good point.

Wow. I guess you know your Bible, huh?

 

[Massy]

Many Those who seek to disprove Christianity (Or indeed, religion in general) do so because they believe that religon is harmful to humanity (For example, anyone who lives in Northern Ireland or Israel could tell you that.) and that it is a moral necessity to undermine it. This is significantly different to "bashing" it, nobody walks around with placards proclaiming it sucks, but instead try to disprove it through logic, dialectics and rational debate.

As for the duty of the Christian being more appealing? The Christian seeks to bring the convert life after death, the atheist to bring them life before death. As an agonostic I don't really feel the need to do this, I just hope humanity will grow out of it out of their own choice as children grow out of Santa and the tooth fairy.

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Massy ]</p>

 

[tmw_redcell]

I'm an atheist. My mother is christian, my father is not. I don't try and bash religion, but I bash people who try and bash people who aren't christian (Because you don't believe you shall burn forever in **** ! Be gone, demon! etc.). I also don't like who the church tries to get in the way of human progress. I mean, they believe in humans having a soul, and they think that a 'clone' or unborn baby has said 'soul' and is a human, and should not be used for medical and other purposes such as 'reduce world hunger' and 'cure paralysis'.

Those who kill others who claim to be carrying out the duty of their deity are just plain sick.

There are plenty of christians who don't constantly press their beliefs upon others, but I know far too many who think I'm a sadistic evil maniac bent on the undoing of the universe or something, just because I think differently than they do.

I'd rather believe something logical than have the much balleyhooed 'faith'.

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: tmw_redcell ]</p>

 

[Bazooka Lucca]

Originally posted by ZeldaLots:
<strong>
Muhammed (spelling?).

Well anyways. I just think there are too many stupid people out there who bash the Bible.

Another interesting thing -- why are all the debates about Catholicism? No one complains about Judaism. I think that part of the hate towards Christianityhas to do with the fact that it is seen as the "big" religion. Sorta like why people hate Microsoft and Windows, maybe even the New York Yankess; they're the big companies (or teams), and people are SUPPOSED to hate them. It's part of human nature.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Muhammed = spelled right.

As far as bashing on religions, inparticularly chritianity. I look at it like this:Christians, ever since christianity started during the time of roman peace, have been preaching the gospel publicly, they were persecuted and yet kept preaching. "The blood of the martyr is the foundation of the church" (err... some quote like that). Well catholicism and Jews do not do this. I've never, in my life, seen a Jew or a catholic try to convince anyone to their religion. (this next comment could be tooken as overgeneralization) Jews and Catholics just seem complacent and happy with where they are at. It seems to me that they expect the people come to them. Ok maybe this isnt' true, maybe I've just been in the wrong places at the wrong times to never see this happen. Forgive me if I'm wrong on this.

ETCHED IN A BOX - For you, I dunno what type of religion your mom was on. It doesn't sound like christianity to me, but I'm not judging her. I honestly don't know what to say about your situation with your mom and yourself. But indeed I am sorry to hear about this, I can't put in to words what I think about this situation of yours. It seems - so unlike christianity if you will...

 

[Gamer4Fire]

As Massy said, we try to disprove (not bash) christianity because it is harmful to humanity. I ask, how many buddhists burned people at the stake for being witches? The answer is none. How many Jews lynched black people in the 1870-1960s? The answer, probably very few. It seems that Christianity in general asks for peace and understanding but has an overall result of death and destruction. Of course Christians aren't the only people to do this. Muslims and the Romans did the same things, in the name of their God(s).

I go around my school and find the super christians, like BL or Snor Snor. And I debate with them. Sometimes in a civilized manner and other times in a yelling match. I've noticed that unless the christian is completely brainwashed, "The bible is the literal word of god and must be taken word for word," I can usually talk some sence into them and prove a scientific theory or two. I find that their entire beef against science is that it is illogical. Because other christians taught them wrong on purpose to increase or keep their belief in the bible. I find this a grave injustice towards humanity and the sciences.

In the end it all comes back to my theory of "People are People." Which states that there are good people and there are bad people, there are smart people and there are (a lot more) dumb people. And as long as people are controlling things such as religion, without the peoples voice. It can and will be controlled by the bad people for evil ends. And there is nothing you can do about it because it is part of humanity. People are people.

 

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Gamer4Fire:
<strong>As Massy said, we try to disprove (not bash) christianity because it is harmful to humanity. I ask, how many buddhists burned people at the stake for being witches? The answer is none. How many Jews lynched black people in the 1870-1960s? The answer, probably very few. It seems that Christianity in general asks for peace and understanding but has an overall result of death and destruction. Of course Christians aren't the only people to do this. Muslims and the Romans did the same things, in the name of their God(s).
</strong><hr></blockquote>

First of all, these were not the same Christians that exist today, and you know it. These were the Puritans who, in my opinion, were a VERY misguided group of individuals. I don't think any living Christian today feels the way they did that it is our right to accuse others of witchcraft and take their judgement into our own hands. Comparing those Christians (and I'm not even sure I would call them that) to today's Christians is like comparing apples to oranges. As far as the KKK, I definitely would not even consider them Christians.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing my beliefs right now... I've done that enough on this forum as is, but I did want to add a few comments. I agree with a lot of what has already been said here, that us Christians have a purpose to our "madness"... we truly believe that we're doing you a favor by bringing you to Christ. Whereas I really don't understand what atheists think us Christians have to gain by being "disproven". Let's compare: I have something to look forward to when I die. I know that my soul will live on in eternity with God in heaven. Atheists, correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked when you die, you're done. Nothing. The end. So what would you be accomplishing by swaying me to atheism? Make me see the light that our lives are pointless, our very existence was an accident, and that in a matter of years I will cease to exist? Wow! Thank you so much for letting me see the truth! I feel so much happier about my life now! I can live form day to day content in the knowledge that it's all in vain! Obviously, that was sarcasm, but you get my drift. From my Christian perspective, and maybe you'll disagree, I find atheism to be a very depressing existence. I would much rather believe in a God, even if He didn't exist, and be able to live a happy life because of it. I honestly don't understand what atheists think they have to lose by being religious... you're life will have meaning, and if you're wrong, then you're no better off than you were when you didn't believe in God. What do you have to lose?

 

[tmw_redcell]

Well, we atheists do believe that there is no life after death, but that doesn't make your lives pointless. You have demonstrated that your only purpose in life is to die, and get into heaven. Now if everyone thought like that, Earth would be pretty crappy? No one would be trying to imporve their own quality of life. It sounds to me like the christians are more bent on improving the quality of death.

Just because that some things end doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile. You can have fun and do well in life and be happy.

And it may be just me but believing in something just because it's the best thing to believe is plain stupid.

 

[Bazooka Lucca]

Originally posted by tmw_redcell:
<strong>Well, we atheists do believe that there is no life after death, but that doesn't make your lives pointless. You have demonstrated that your only purpose in life is to die, and get into heaven. Now if everyone thought like that, Earth would be pretty crappy? No one would be trying to imporve their own quality of life. It sounds to me like the christians are more bent on improving the quality of death.

Just because that some things end doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile. You can have fun and do well in life and be happy.

And it may be just me but believing in something just because it's the best thing to believe is plain stupid.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have demonstrated that the only purpose of life is to die? Haha no way. Life is full of experiences and fun stuff. But when it boils down to your core, It seems that all this stuff on earth only temporarily satisfies you. It is taught in more than one religion that nothing except God brings true happiness. Budhas have a similar belief (the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path).

The way some of you guys talk about christians makes me wonder exactly what kind of christians you are talking to. I've never met a brainwashed christian.

As far as faith and logic. Logically I doubt I could prove God's existence, it takes faith, but as well does evolution. See we all have our faith in differnt things. I have faith that our car will start every morning I go to school. Some things require more faith to beleive in. If I could describe and kinda prove God's existence, I'd have to use this example:

Do you love your mom?
-yes
How do you know you love her? Can you scientifically prove this to me on paper?
-well not really

The same thing with God's existance.

 

[tmw_redcell]

That post was adressed to Arrow, not you BL.

And there is a way to see who you are and aren't in love with, because there is a gland in or around your brain that produces a chemical when you fall in love or are around somone you are in love with. The scientific terms elude me at the moment, but I could try and dig up the book if you feel yo must have them.

 

[Liquid Entropy]

"I basically wanna know what most aetheists hope to accomplish."

I hope to live my life to its fullest.
By and large, that is all.

I wish to enjoy my life, and to make the most out
of it.

As for believing in a higher power, its very
simple, I do not. There's relatively little I can
do to change that. It doesn't particularly
bother me. I don't feel sorry about not having
someone...something or another... who I'm supposed
to contact subtly, supernatuarlly or whatever.

I don't particularly fear death, like at all.
It seems to me like the synapses stop firing and
your consciousness disolves into void. That
doesn't sound pleasant, but its not bad. What
people to fail to notice about oblivion, frankly,
is that its oblivion. You wouldn't miss or feel
bad about anything because you simply wouldn't
be.

Personally, specifically, I want to graduate
college with a PhD in chemical engineering, and
maybe move to southern california.

I have my own set of morals, indeed, and they're
pretty steadfast, and I seak to mantain them. I
have them because they either feel appropriate for
me, or make sense.

Its true, that i hate christians, alot of them.
The first thing a christian does when I say "I
hate christians" is tell me that I can't hate all
christians, and then secondly explains to me how
how I must not mean his or her type of
christianity. I politely explain that yes, his
or her type of christianity does fall under my
umbrella of loathing.

I'm ok with jews. Its a non-prolific religion.
If you want to become a jew, you go to them. They
don't show up on your door saterday morning, hand
you a pamphlet, and tell you who and how everyone
is going to **** , no sir. You've got to read
between the lines, of course, they tell you who's
going to heaven, and just leave the rest of the
people as assumed sinners going to **** .

I do not believe in a god, and I do not need tom,
**** , nor harry to tell me that there is one.
If you have your own god, congradulations, I hope
you and it have a beautiful life together. I'm
going to live my life according to my own
principles because I prefer to.

 

[ZeldaLots]

Its kinda sad that you hate Christians because they're Christians. That's called prejudice.

I say this as an atheist myself. What does religion have to do with personal character? Do you hate my parents because they are devout Christians? They taught ME how to live. But I'm okay, because I'm not Christian, despite learning my morals from Christians.

Sad. Very sad.

 

[Kokichi]

I just try to dissprove them because I care about people. I mean, Christians spend there whole lives following guide lines ot go to "heaven". It's basically you can and you cannot do this. I just feel sorry for them, that they waste their short, precious, 1 life, believing that they will go to a better place when they die. I just feel sorry for them, but then again, I really don't care about them. I mean, if they are sticking to Xianity and saying that they are always going to believe in God, then sucks for them. I just want to try to open up the eyes of the blind.

Also, I get really disgusted when people try to dissprove evolution. Each time I hear that dinosaurs lived with humans, I piss my pants since I laugh so hard.

I believe in mother goose. It makes just as much sense to have faith in Mother Goose as it does to have faith in a god. Many theists think that faith in Mother Goose would be ridiculous while faith in God is not. This is because they have been conditioned, often from birth, to have faith in their god and not to have faith in the many other equally plausible magical creatures. When someone says that faith is the reason that they believe in something, what they are really saying is that they have no valid reason whatsoever for holding their belief, but they believe anyway because they feel like it. Faith is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Also, I hate that so many people praise God, when he himself is more dispicable and evil then Satan. Why? Well, he is only the most deadlies and murderous fantasy creature in any story. He made a flood that wiped out every living creature in the world (save Noah and 2 of each animals). He encourages **** and slavery.

Genesis 6
11
Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence.
12
God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
13
So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
14
So make yourself an ark of cypress[1] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out.
15
This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.[2]
16
Make a roof for it and finish[3] the ark to within 18 inches[4] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.
17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
<hr></blockquote>

Exodus 12
29
At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.
<hr></blockquote>

With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

Exodus 21
20
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21
but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. <hr></blockquote>

With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

Exodus 32
27
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'"
28
The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.
29
Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day." <hr></blockquote>

Numbers 21
6
Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. <hr></blockquote>

Numbers 25
9
but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.
<hr></blockquote>

32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

Numbers 31
31
So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
32
The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep,
33
72,000 cattle,
34
61,000 donkeys
35
and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36
The half share of those who fought in the battle was: 337,500 sheep,
37
of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
38
36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
39
30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
40
16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32. <hr></blockquote>

With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

Deuteronomy 21
10
When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives,
11
if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.
12
Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails
13
and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.
<hr></blockquote>

"God did it" has no more explanatory power than the childish reply "just because". <hr></blockquote>

Thomas Jefferson said this:

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." <hr></blockquote>

Mark Twain :

"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bothers me, it's the parts that I do understand." <hr></blockquote>

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin
<hr></blockquote>

In the end the reason why I bother is explained here......

"My only wish is ... to transform friends of God into friends of man, believers into thinkers, devotees of prayer into devotees of work, candidates for the hereafter into students of the world, Christians, who by their own admission, are 'half animal, half angel' into persons, into whole persons." - Ludwig Feuerbach
Here here!

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Kokichi ]</p>

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Originally posted by Arrow:
<strong>First of all, these were not the same Christians that exist today, and you know it. These were the Puritans who, in my opinion, were a VERY misguided group of individuals. I don't think any living Christian today feels the way they did that it is our right to accuse others of witchcraft and take their judgement into our own hands. Comparing those Christians (and I'm not even sure I would call them that) to today's Christians is like comparing apples to oranges. As far as the KKK, I definitely would not even consider them Christians.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh? Yeah. Christians don't do this anymore. WRONG! Christians are just as stupid today as they were a hundred years ago. Fearing everything and calling it the devil (you morons). The proof is <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/01/24/blackwidow.ap/index.html" target="_blank">here</a>. A news article from CNN about how a bunch of Christian morons are afraid of a "witch" is casting spells on them and using voodoo to kill them. And the funny part is if their God is so strong, then what do they have to fear from voodoo?

BL- Buddhists don't believe in a God. They believe in reincarnation until they become perfect and return to the universe in all its perfection and attain true bliss. Nothing about God. You ought to learn these things before speaking of them.

And Evolution doesn't require faith because we have proof. You have no proof, only your faith.

Liquid- Don't hate Christians, convert them. That's what I do. Explain to them how they are wrong with whatever scientific whatever they believe is wrong. I've explained Evolutionary theory, the Big Bang and numerous others to Christians and have had a good effect. They are slowly realizing their waste in faith and becoming agnostic. And their belief in Science, our "one true God", is becoming cemented and they are no longer being sheeple. Good stuff.

 

[JBird1203]

For lots of good material on atheism/ christian belief bashing listen to some george carlin mp3's. The guy is a genius, in how he denounces the ten commandements.

 

[Bazooka Lucca]

Very interesting, I am learning from you guys. For now I have learned all I feel I need to have learned from you. So this shall be my last post here for I do not see any reason to further debate with some of you. Around begining of last summer I was strong in Christianity, I grew tired of it and became apathetic about it. Eventually I became a Deist, or even agnostic. Call it what you want, I beleived that there was a God, but that he didnt' do anything for us. Since those days till a few weaks ago, I've been miserable. Now call me a luney, call me whack, it makes no differnce to me, but life without God for me was like sniffing the depths of **** itself. Now, I'm happy as ever, but I'm not gonna tell you my life story for I wish not to bore any of you. Reason for this particulary post: I have no one particular reason, but I felt compelled to post - letting you know where I stand since I brought this subject up... For now - peace out hombres

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Bazooka Lucca ]</p>

 

[SnorSnor]

Hey, Koki :D

You said,

Christians spend there whole lives following guide lines ot go to "heaven". It's basically you can and you cannot do this.<hr></blockquote>

The gospel is not about a list of "do's and don'ts." The gospel of Jesus Christ is about "it's already been done." Christ has done what we couldn't, and He sacrificed Himself
for our sins so that, if we believe and accept Him as Lord of our lives and follow Him (Trying to live as He did, which was without sin), then we can also be with Him in heaven. Here's what a Christian kid had in his sig that I thought was really neat:

The gospel message is that you are more sinful and evil and weak than you ever dared believe, but you are more valued and accepted and loved than you ever dared hope. John 14:6 - Jesus Answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus says, "I did not come here to show you how to strive, I did the striving. I did not come here to show you a mountain of righteousness to climb, I climbed it. I didn't come to show you how to live the perfect life and then die, I lived the life you should have lived, I died the death you should have died, I am the way! Come ask for me, come grab me, come rest in me, reach out and say, 'Father, love me and accept me because of what Jesus did,' and you're there. I am the way. I don't point to it. I am it." Christianity is Christ, the gospel is not instruction, it's an announcement. The gospel doesn't say, 'Do,' it says, "It's been done."<hr></blockquote>

So no, it's not about laws or anything like that so we can gain access to heaven, it's about having a relationship with the Creator who created us all

Genesis 6 you posted about Noah's ark<hr></blockquote>

We must remember that God is a holy God, and He will punish people for their sins. It's His nature. God created life, and really, He does have an absolute right to take it out. We're only alive by His grace and because He loves us. He has every right to zap us with a bolt of lightning if He wanted to.

The reason why He killed nearly everyone, is because the sin was so bad. It says that the people's thoughts were only evil. God only saw Noah and his family "worthy" enough to stay alive. If some other family were also the same, they, too, would stay alive, but the sad thing is, is that there was no other "worthy" enough family to stay alive. That's how bad it was in Noah's time, and because it was so bad, God has decided to destroy everyone and start over with Noah's family.

Exodus 12 you posted about the Lord striking down the firstborns of Egypt who didn't have the blood of the lamb on their doors<hr></blockquote>

Another thing we must remember is that God was having Moses do all sorts of miracles to have the Israelites come out of Egypt. The only way they could leave is by Pharoah's approval, so they don't get killed or anything, but to leave freely and safely.
Ten plagues Moses did by God's power before Pharoah and Egypt to have the Israelites come out of Egypt. I'll say 9 and 1/2 times Pharoah didn't listen, but refused to let them go (Because he did let them go, but then chased after them).
It was God's punishment to have the first borns killed, because Pharoah kept refusing to let them go.

With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.<hr></blockquote>

People aren't disciplined unless there is a reason, right? I'm not saying that I agree with slavery, but I'm saying that if a slave is beaten by his master there must be some reason on why that is happening.
If the slave dies, the person is punished. If the slave is beaten to death, they will die. So the masters aren't beating them to death if they live.

But, I think it'll be a lot better if you ask the people on that UBB link I gave you to help you on this subject

Exodus 32 that you quoted with God saying to Moses that 3,000 people should be killed<hr></blockquote>

We shouldn't take verses out of context. The reason these people were killed is because they committed idolatry, and the idolaters were Israelites who worshiped a golden calf.

Numbers 21 chapter you quoted about God sending snakes to kill some Israelites<hr></blockquote>

Again, we must take verses into context. This is another punishment sent by God. I'll post the whole verse,

Numbers 21:4-5 - They traveled from Mount *** along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"<hr></blockquote>

During the punishment, the Israelistes came to Moses and repented. God had mercy on them and helped them,

Numbers 21:7-8 - The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."<hr></blockquote>

So, God being very merciful, He made it extremely easy for the Israelites to be healed.

Numbers 24 you posted about God having 24,000 people killed by a plague<hr></blockquote>

Again, context, context, context! Let's look a little bit before this verse and see why they were killed.

Numbers 25:1-3 - While Israel was staying in ****tim, the men began to indulge in sexual immaorality with Moabite women, who invited them to sacrifice to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them<hr></blockquote>

So we see now that this is why God had them killed by the plague. It was a punishment, and like I said, God is holy, and He will punish people for sinning against Him.

32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.<hr></blockquote>

I don't know about this one, sorry You'll have to ask those people at the message board I showed you. They're more educated about the things in the Pentateuch (sp?) (That is, the first five books of the Bible, which is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

Deuteronomy quote you've given about the female captives<hr></blockquote>

Where does it say that if the wife does not please her husband sexually, that they may let her go? It doesn't say this. By the word "pleased" they mean happy with. Just like people can please God with the things they do and the devotion they give to Him. Let's look a little further into that verse.

Deuteronomy 21:14 - If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.<hr></blockquote>

So if a husband may not be pleased with the female captive wife, the husband can let her go freely wherever she wants. She can't be a slave can can't be sold, because they have dishonored her. Would be good to ask those people that I've mentioned before to "shed more light" on the subject!

I hope that helped some for you!! :D

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[Chronicler]

Originally posted by Gamer4Fire:
[QB]

Uh? Yeah. Christians don't do this anymore. WRONG! Christians are just as stupid today as they were a hundred years ago. Fearing everything and calling it the devil (you morons). The proof is <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/01/24/blackwidow.ap/index.html" target="_blank">here</a>. A news article from CNN about how a bunch of Christian morons are afraid of a "witch" is casting spells on them and using voodoo to kill them. And the funny part is if their God is so strong, then what do they have to fear from voodoo?

Is it really fair to make a generalization about every Christian just because a few fanatics accused some lady of being a witch? Do you think that all Christians are like that? That's just as absurd as accusing all Muslims of being fanatic terrorists because Al-Qiada attacked America. If you don't want to be instantly judged by others as an abortion-loving, Christian-hating, godless man with no goal in life, you shouldn't judge us Christians because of the actions of a few nuts that misinterpreted the Word of their faith. After all that's happened on September 11 to bring us Americans together, I find it hard to believe that anyone could make such a biased generalization discriminating against any religious group. And if you think we Christians are "morons", I find it neccesary to point out that a few of the members of your "faith" have dreamed up beliefs much more absurd than this account of a witch- how about the aethiests that believe that when you die, you live on in the material that you decompose into? (Oh, yeah- When I die, I'll become a blade of grass that I decompose into.) Our message is not one of fear, but of love. Love- oh yeah, and acceptance too. So why not accept that there's more to us "Jesus freaks" than fanatics cowering from Satan and anything alien to our own beliefs?

An afterthought: My faith in Christ is enough for me- is your faith in scientific theories enough for you?

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Chronicler ]</p>

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I don't need to have faith in science. It just is.

And the point is that too many christians are like this. Too many people are like this.

 

[Chronicler]

Originally posted by Gamer4Fire:
<strong>BL- Buddhists don't believe in a God. They believe in reincarnation until they become perfect and return to the universe in all its perfection and attain true bliss. Nothing about God. You ought to learn these things before speaking of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps you ought to learn a bit more about Christians before you go around calling us morons, Gamer4Fire.
Also- If there truly are too many Christians like those guys that accused the lady of being a witch (I doubt it), why not just accept that they're wrong and that not all Christians are like that and that we're not superstitious morons? Furthermore, if you said that there are "too many Christians like that", is that to say that not all Christians are like that? Is that to say that we're not all "morons"?

"I don't need to have faith in science. It just is." said you. Well, I don't have to have faith in God- he just is. As for your statement, however, to quote a certain liar, "That depends on what 'is' is." Is science really written in stone? Can you say with 100% certainty that evolution and the Big Bang theories are true? The answer: No. That's why they're called "theories". They could easily be wrong. So you see, you too have faith- faith in these theories. Therefore, you ought to understand the faith that all Christians have in God. I don't believe that everything happened seemingly without a purpose, or that that life just IS, and there is no rhyme or reason to it, or that we have nothing to look forward to after leading a productive life, or that there is only science, and no higher power to watch over us. Perhaps you or any other aethiests taking part in this discussion don't believe this either, but to me, that is what those theories state without God there to direct them. Even if these theories are true, I think that there has to be a guy (in this case, an all-powerful guy) directing them. I believe that there is a force in this world that guides us all, greater than any force of nature, and that power- God's power- is very real. Perhaps you ought to seriously consider learning a bit more about this power and us Christians- maybe we're not the "morons" you think we are.

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Chronicler ]</p>

 

[Gamer4Fire]

You are showing the arrogance of the religious freaks. This world was made for us specifically and the world revolves around us. It's nice to think that your special but you missed both points. My main theory that "people are people" and the fact that my theories come from something called the scientific method, which uses proof to create a theory than introduces data to try to prove or disprove it. Most theories are disproved and we can say, "Well at least we know we got one down, what else could it be?" You on the other hand blindly follow a supernatural power, believing that you are the center of the universe. That it was in fact created just for you. That is stupid and arrogant, however special you want to feel, you aren't. We are a mathematical chance in the universe that just happened to pan out. There is no purpose for human life. We just are. The fact that you need a God to believe that you are the reason the universe was created shows how stupid, small and shallow you really are. And the reason why I believe Christians are morons. The world does not revolve around us. We are lucky to be alive. Deal with it. The world doesn't need us, and will keep going with or without us. There is no meaning to life, your existence means absolutely jack. When you die, you decompose and become nothing. Say hello to the truth. I'm betting it hurts.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Originally posted by Craftstar:
<strong>I think the Aetheists are annoyed with stereotypical Christians who are perfect brainless door to door salesmen (that would be Jehovah Witnesses). However, whatever point of view someone chooses to have is fine, and they should be allowed to have it, however bashing you think it may be. Personally, I don't like it to hear Aetheists bash Christians, it just doesn't seem fair, but I guess they are expecting the kind of Christian they see on TV- The stereotypical kind.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But it's ok for Christians to bash Pagans constantly, because it is considered witchcraft(example: a church burned several hundred books of J.K Rowling's book Harry Potter, because they believe children going to a school to learn in the ways of paganism is sick and wrong). Yet everyday there are a ton of Christian schools and yet no one says anything.

 

[Kokichi]

This is kinda a side note, but ever notice how a christian can cuss and be rude? My friend is a mormon and always says "Gay, fruit, ******, ****, etc." Some also have sex before they are married. So, if they do all this, they aren't real true christians, are they? Why do they do this? It is because of their regular, human emotions that we grew up with.

BTW Why did God have to destroy the world with a flood if he had foresight, new he would have to. So why not just make them have free will, but not put the people on the earth that would cause it? Hmmmm?

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Originally posted by Misto-Roboto:
<strong>

But it's ok for Christians to bash Pagans constantly, because it is considered witchcraft(example: a church burned several hundred books of J.K Rowling's book Harry Potter, because they believe children going to a school to learn in the ways of paganism is sick and wrong). Yet everyday there are a ton of Christian schools and yet no one says anything.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Please make sure you note the sarcasm at the beginnning of that remark!

 

[Liquid Entropy]

I said I hate christians.

I don't hate every single christians.

To the best of my ability, I respond to every
person I meet with as little bias as I can.

As a rule of thumb, however, I do hate christians.

I don't actually hate christianity, its reletively
harmless. I don't hate every single person who
is a christian. My hatred lies somewhere in
between.

I could explain, at length, why I hate christians,
of course, but then, why? Does it really matter?
If you really want to know, IM me if you have
my aim name, or email me, or PM me, or post
something, whatever. Its not like anyone here's
gunna make me into a christian. If that's going
to happen, I can tell you its not going to be
of my own volition, not any kind of external
conversion.

What I said I mentioned, like an explanation of
my stance.

Christians offend me, arrouse what would be best
described as the passive agressive form of
blood lust.

Now, what's really shocking is that this
subject isn't techincally christians vs athiests.

BL just wanted some opinion to work with. I
doubt it really swayed him either way at all,
actually.

Anyhow, regardless of what you believe in, if it
makes you happy, congradulations BL. Personally,
it looks like I don't believe it, but that's coo
and all.

Looks like BL pretty much ended this topic by
making his decision. If someone wants to formally
change the subjet I'd recommend a new topic...
I may reply anyhow.

 

[androza]

Love the christian, hate the christianity.

Now, I have a few points to make. First, is how much of an impediment to human progress Christianity specifically is. Christianity has done nothing but slowed down science, and through it, the well being of the human race. Take for example, Copernicus. He believed the Earth revolved around the sun, not vice versa. Because of his heliocentric ideas, he was persecuted by the church. Parmenides, a philosopher, was burned at the stake in the Flower Market in Rome, by the (christian) church. Galileo was threatened with death because of his beliefs. Some of you may say Christians are like that any more, but you're jsut wrong. Look at cloning, or abortion pills, or even Blue Laws! All of these slow down the progress of humanity. Think of far humanity might have come if not for the shackles of fundamentalism.

We occasionally have people who kill lots of babies. Guess what we call them? Mass murderers, lunatics, etc. Your god seems to be nothing but one of these. On a truly momentous scale no less. All the fist born babies? 3000 people? 16000 people? There is no way that anyone can justify killing this many people just for being Israelites. Especially the babies, who had no power over what the pharaoh did.

I hope Christianity dies out because, frankly, its a thorn in our collective side.

 

[Bazooka Lucca]

Well thanks LE, I tend to stray away from throwing arguements out there like "You are wrong and I am right." But yeah, pretty much everything you said was right.

As far as budhists, I was talking about the four noble truths, if you have ever heard of them, they have similar beleifs that are explained in the bible.

 

[Chronicler]

Originally posted by Gamer4Fire:
<strong>You are showing the arrogance of the religious freaks. This world was made for us specifically and the world revolves around us.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I said, "I believe that there is a force in this word that guides us all." ALL, I say. All meaning EVERYONE, Christian or not. I wasn't saying that God only guides Christians.

<strong>It's nice to think that your special but you missed both points.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It seems to me that I got your points well- you made it quite clear that you think all Christians are morons (unfiar, absurd discrimination) and that you don't need to have faith in science.

<strong>My main theory that "people are people" and the fact that my theories come from something called the scientific method, which uses proof to create a theory than introduces data to try to prove or disprove it. Most theories are disproved and we can say, "Well at least we know we got one down, what else could it be?"</strong> <hr></blockquote>

Yes, this is quite true about the scientific method- I know about those steps that scientists take to prove or disprove a theory and such. However, if there was ONE THING you learned from my seventh grade science teacher, it was that nothing in science is written in stone. However plausible these theories of evolution and the big bang may be, there is also evidence against them. There's evidence for both sides. So are the theories true? No one can say for sure. And as for your "people are people" theory- it seems quite bold. You atcually acknowledge the existence of evil! You say that religion is an instrument of evil. I will not object that in some cases, the Christian religion has been used for evil. It has been horribly, deviously twisted by many-the KKK, the witch-burning Puritans, the Crusaders. However, they took Christianity and used it for their own designs. That's not what the Christian religion is all about. It's about being used for good.

<strong>You on the other hand blindly follow a supernatural power, believing that you are the center of the universe. That it was in fact created just for you.That is stupid and arrogant, however special you want to feel, you aren't. We are a mathematical chance in the universe that just happened to pan out. There is no purpose for human life. We just are.The fact that you need a God to believe that you are the reason the universe was created shows how stupid, small and shallow you really are. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Christians believe that everything was created with a purpose. Again, I will say that you misunderstood what I said- I did not say that God only looks out for us, he looks after everyone. We Christians don't think that we're better than everyone else. We don't think that God only created us uniquely. We believe that God created all human life uniquely. Before you start to lecture me about genetics and probability, I'll tell you that my 7th grade teacher taught me that too. It's all so complex how humans come into being- are you going to try and tell me that it's all caused by chemicals? It is you, my friend, that needs to broaden your horizons of acceptance.
If you think we Christians are stupid and shallow- well, I'm quite glad I have the knowledge that there is something more to human nature than chemical reactions. We were placed so highly above the other animals of the world, and you think it's just because of chance? No- it's the souls. They're in everyone- not just Christians. Apparently, that's what you're trying to convince everyone, Gamer4Fire- that we Christians think that we're the only people with souls. No, our faith teaches equality- and to be frank, I don't give a darn about some fools that don't believe that you have a soul. They're not a representation of the true nature of my faith.

<strong>And the reason why I believe Christians are morons. The world does not revolve around us.There is no meaning to life, your existence means absolutely jack. </strong><hr></blockquote>

God gave us dominion over animals- that's what we believe. We're not the center of the universe- God is. He has allowed us to come into being to spread His Word and His Love. There- that's the meaning of life- my life, at least. And I don't care what an idiot you think I am for saying that.

<strong>We are lucky to be alive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Indeed we are- God has blessed us greatly. And if you're lucky enough to be alive, He's got a plan for you.

<strong>The world doesn't need us, and will keep going with or without us.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Indded it will- if God so wills it.

<strong>When you die, you decompose and become nothing.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Then what? Do you live on in a blade of grass?Yeah- that's what happens to your body. But your soul- that goes to heaven.

<strong> Say hello to the truth. I'm betting it hurts.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I already know the truth- God's truth. In all honestly. It doesn't hurt at all. It would do you some good not to be so prejudiced against the followers of it.


And- I don't need to hopelessly believe in a God, clinging to the lie that I'm special. I'm not the reason the universe was created- God is. God simply is the reason that we all exist- not some soup of chemicals. Now, reconsider- who is the small, stupid, shallow one here?

 

[LZ 645]

It seems obvious that no one is getting through to eachother. Atheists saying why they think they're right, Christians saying why they think God exists....you all seem so sure. Atheists think that the only reality is this world: the one we're in right now. Christians believe in this world and the afterlife. I'll admit I'm an atheiest, but with not all the beliefs of one. Some think that this world is the/a reality. I'll tell you what I think: I think that this world, the one I live in, is a world created by my mind. I can't get inside some kid's mind and say "Hmm, he likes Jennifer Lopez", can I? Of course not. Maybe it's because you're not real. I have no proof you are. I have no proof this world is. I believe that there is NO reality....at least not in this world. It is simply something that my mind made up the moment it chose my body as a host and I was "created". My "birth" is fake. My "life" is fake. My "death" will be fake. This world is fake. Now that is my opinion. I'm not trying to convice you that I'm right and whatnot. There's no point in that, seeing as we all have beliefs that we strongly believe in. No one's gonna convince anybody to believe anything, no matter how hard you try. Christians- You may be trying to help others, but they have thier own beliefs, and many times...they won't listen to you.
Atheists- Look above.


And that's *my* two cents.

 

[Kokichi]

About souls.....

As Paul Draper, an agnostic philosopher at Florida International University, puts it, "Consciousness and personality are highly dependent on the brain. Nothing mental happens without something physical happening." Now Michael Tooley, a philosopher at the University of Colorado at Boulder, has stated five lines of evidence in support of this claim. Let me summarize just briefly that evidence. First, when an individuals brain is directly stimulated and put into a certain physical state, this causes the person to have a corresponding experience. Second, certain injuries to the brain make it impossible for a person to have any mental states at all. Third, other injuries to the brain destroy various mental capacities. Which capacity is destroyed is tied directly to the particular region of the brain that was damaged. Fourth, when we examine the mental capacities of animals, they become more complex as their brains become more complex. And fifth, within any given species, the development of mental capacities is correlated with the development of neurons in the brain. Thus, the conclusion that, "Nothing mental happens without something physical happening," seems inescapable.

But if nothing mental happens without something physical happening, that strongly implies that the mind cannot exist independently of physical arrangements of matter. In other words, we do not have a soul. And this is exactly what we would expect if naturalism is true. But if theism is true, then our minds should not depend on our brains for their existence; we should have souls. Also, if theism is true, then God is a disembodied mind; Gods mind is not in any sense dependent on physical arrangements of matter. But if nothing mental happens without something physical happening, that is evidence against both the existence of souls and the existence of any being who is supposed to have a disembodied mind, including God. Therefore, the physical nature of minds is unlikely if theism is true, but what we would expect if naturalism is true.

Thought you should know this....

Common Myths Concerning Christianity


Myth: The USA's founding fathers were all Christians.
Fact: Many of the founding fathers were Deists. Several patriots, such as Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, held Christianity in contempt.

Myth: The fact that US money is stamped with the phrase "In God we trust" and the US pledge of allegiance contains the phrase "under God" is evidence that the founding fathers believed that religion should be endorsed by the state.
Fact: Neither phrase was used until about a century or more after the US was founded. The phrase "In God we trust" first appeared on US coins shortly after the Civil War. It did not appear on paper money until the McCarthy era when pious politicians wanted to distinguish the US from the "Godless Communists". The pledge of allegiance was also adulterated during the McCarthy era; the original pledge did not contain the phrase "under God".

Myth: Christianity spread rapidly during its early years because the evidence for it was convincing.
Fact: Genocide and forced conversion were the primary factors that caused the spread of Christianity. In the early part of the fourth century, the Roman emperor Constantine carried out "holy" wars against pagans; and in 356 CE, a law was passed officially declaring the practice of non-Christian religions to be a crime punishable by death. Before Constantine, Christianity was an insignificant little cult.

Myth: Without Christianity, or a similar religion, morality would be perversely relativistic.
Fact: Christianity, if taken seriously, would lead to the most perverse kind of moral relativism. The Bible is self-contradictory. People who attempt to base their morals solely on the Bible will have morals that depend on what parts of the Bible they choose to believe and what parts they choose to ignore. Fortunately, most Christians ignore the many Bible passages that glorify genocide.

Myth: Christianity inspires its believers to place a higher value on human life than they would otherwise.
Fact: By placing emphasis on a mythical afterlife at the expense of real life, Christianity devalues human life. Many Christians claim that life would have no meaning without God and the hope for an eternal afterlife. This is equivalent to saying that they think that our life here on Earth is worthless. How very sad.

Also, is their Christianty evidence?

Historical Evidence for Christianity

Is there any evidence that the miraculous stories described in the Gospels are true? Given the fact that we have accounts from many historians writing in this era, one would expect that if the miraculous stories were true that many of the historians would have made some mention of them. Did they? According to McKlintock and Strong's Cyclopædia of Theological Literature, "enough of the writings of [these] authors . . . remain to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author [Josephus], and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers [Tacitus and Seutonius], there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." A common myth among both Christians and non-Christians is that there is ample evidence showing that there was an historical Jesus. The truth is that there is little or no historical evidence for Jesus that is not contested by serious scholars. (For more information on the historical evidence for Jesus, see Historicitiy of Jesus, Josh McDowell's "Evidence" for Jesus -- Is It Reliable?, and Christ a Fiction.) The point here is not to claim that there was no historical Jesus, but to point out that the historical evidence does not even come close to justifying the Christians' claims of unambiguous proof of an historical Jesus. Of course, it is possible that there was a Jesus on which the character in the Bible is based. If he did nothing extraordinary, it would not be surprising that there is hardly any mention of him in secular histories, but according to the Bible, there were extraordinary events taking place in Jesus' time. For example, Matthew 27:50-54 describes an earthquake at the moment of Jesus' death. If this had actually happened, surely many of the historians would have mentioned it. Yet this event is conspicuously absent from the secular histories. The overwhelming lack of evidence for the events described in the Bible, combined with the fact that there were many historians who would have written about the events had they actually occurred, constitutes strong evidence that the events did not take place as described. (If you think that this is an example of the "absence of proof equals proof of absence" fallacy, you need to read the Lack of Evidence section of Arguments for Atheism.)

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Chronicler- I am so glad you are not a marksmen, because you keep missing the point. And your last reply shows it. Your little speil on how humans are the highest form of life adds to my fact that your believe yourself to be better than everything. And the point you keep missing is that by you and christianity, I mean your world view. I don't hold certain people out, I hold all your beliefs within that. You believe the pompous notion that the universe was created for the sole purpose of human life, that we are the only "things" with a sole. That no other creature has intelligents. Yet we can teach a gorilla sign language and learn that it already knows how to reason. I'm betting it doesn't believe in god. It has no reason to.

Another little point you made, yet didn't clarify was how evolution and other theories are flawed, yet you don't give evidence on how they are flawed and you missed the point on how the scientific method works. If we can find one part of a theory untrue, the entire theory is suspect and rewritten to take into acount the new data. Evolutionary theory has been evolving for the last hundred years, it is not a static document.

The part of how the world ends if all humans die was touching, the fact that you believe that makes me feel uncertain of your mental capacity to reason.

I especially liked this quote:

Originally posted by Chronicler:
<strong>God simply is the reason that we all exist- not some soup of chemicals. Now, reconsider- who is the small, stupid, shallow one here?</strong><hr></blockquote>

"God simple reason we exist." And you completely discount the chemical soup (Which our oceans are, the planet core is, most stellar bodies are, etc) and ask who the small, stupid, shallow one is. Bravo, numbnuts. You do well to prove my points. Please don't come again.

 

[SnorSnor]

Oh man. I had a whole written reply up, and I had the maximum amount of smilies in. So I press the back button, and now everything is gone! Ok, I'll try and type it up all over again, since I'm feeling, oh I don't know, "persistent." I knew I should've copied and pasted that thing before I hit the button!! (And just now, a while after) I typed a whole bunch up, and a little ago, saved it to a wordpad file. Thank God literally that I did that, because the web page just crashed, LOL.

Please, stop the name calling. There is no reason in this topic why anyone would have to call someone some name. I don’t care if someone did it first and you wanna say it back; just don’t do it. No one needs to get low.


Koki, you said,

but ever notice how a christian can cuss and be rude?<hr></blockquote>

I also cussed and was rude when I'm a Christian. So is many other people who continually struggle with this. Remember that Christians aren't perfect, because Christians, too, have a sinful nature that is battled against.

My friend is a mormon and always says "Gay, fruit, ******, ****, etc."<hr></blockquote>

Aren't the mormons the one who think that Jesus Christ and the devil are brothers? and that they also believe one day, they'll be a "god" of their own planet with their families? I don't know exactly if mormons are Christian or not. . . you'll have to ask the people at the UBB I gave you to. The Narrow Road would be the best place to go for mormon questions.

Oh, I was browsing the board a little and found this! <a href="http://216.183.105.148/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001164.html" target="_blank">http://216.183.105.148/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001164.html</a> Hope that helps with some mormon beliefs =)

And also remmeber that I claimed to be a Christian, and cussed and things like that, but wasn't a Christian at all.

Some also have sex before they are married. So, if they do all this, they aren't real true christians, are they?<hr></blockquote>

No one said this. There are Christians who had sex before marriage, and knew they shouldn't. A real Christian would repent and ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again. No one is perfect, and they can fall into the temptations of that sin. A fake one wouldn't even give thought of it.
But all those sins that we commit can be forgiven, except just one, which is called "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

It is because of their regular, human emotions that we grew up with.<hr></blockquote>

There are some emotions that shouln't be toyed around with very much, but should be taken very seriously.

Quote by LE,

Its not like anyone here's
gunna make me into a christian.<hr></blockquote>

Oh no, no can do this except God. Only He can convince people of Him by His Spirit. Christians plant the seed, but God waters it and makes it grow. It's an interesting analogy God made up about unbelievers and Christians and Him!

We occasionally have people who kill lots of babies. Guess what we call them? Mass murderers, lunatics, etc. Your god seems to be nothing but one of these. On a truly momentous scale no less. All the fist born babies? 3000 people? 16000 people? There is no way that anyone can justify killing this many people just for being Israelites. Especially the babies, who had no power over what the pharaoh did.<hr></blockquote>

I did tell why those things has happened. God created life, and does have the right to take it out, too. Murder is killing for no reason at all. God has reasons why He takes out life. They disobey.

Now a good thing to remember is that those babies aren't going to **** . God, who has been extremely merciful, will let them in heaven! since they did no wrong at all, meaning they can't be held accountable for anything, and can't even comprehend right and wrong. People call this "the age of accountability."

Matthew 19:14 - But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.<hr></blockquote>

I hope Christianity dies out because, frankly, its a thorn in our collective side.<hr></blockquote>

I think we should not always look on the wrong, but also look at the good at what Christianity has done. Sheltered people homeless people, food to the hungry, money to the poor, clothes to the clotheless, fire for the cold, and the greatest of all the things, is that they've shown them the love of Christ that is in them that they might believe and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Koki, I have given you a couple of examples on proof for Jesus, since you seem to be the most interested in this kind of stuff by your posting about it =) I don't care when you do or if you read it, but I'm just suggesting it to you that there is some available source on proof for Christ! =)

Also, Koki, about the mind/mental and physical thing you've said. One major thing about God is that He's supernatural, which means "not natural." Since He is omnipotent, omnipresent, omnscient, was always there and was never created, and has three parts that make Him up (The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are whom we call "God"), we can very, very, extremely safely say that God is supernatural and doesn't work like us at all :D

God did take human form for around 33 or so years whom we know as Jesus Christ, but still, Jesus was always there, too, since He is God. He was known in the Old Testament as "the angel of the LORD." He was a Spirit before taking human form. God the Father and God the Spirit are Spirits, and we know that spirits are supernatural.

Now about blind faith that people claim Christians have. Actually, we're not blind at all! =) By God manifesting Himself unto us, people can know that God is real, strengthen their belief and faith in Him, and be devoted and experience Him more. Christ tells us what He does with Christians who follow His commands,

John 14:21 - He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.<hr></blockquote>

God does this as a reward for following Him. Whether it be overjoyed joy or happiness, a blessing or His presence to be felt more intimately, or whatever. Any way He please to that will help you have some more belief, faith, and devotion to Him! =)

Now I have told about my life story, although there is much more to it! I just wanted to keep it short because I didn't want to bore anyone :D But there were three interesting prayers that were answered today at church; two by me and one by my mom's friend (We were at the second service for the day, because my mom was with my brother at his skate practice).

The first was, I prayed not too long ago that God would send more harvesters out into the harvest, since the harvest is great. Which is, to send more believers out to gather much more people, and gather them to God's kingdom. So today in the first service, one of my pastors handed out three sheets of paper, for anyone who is interested to sign. One of them was evangelism, which is, going out and telling people about Jesus Christ and what He's done for all of us, and two others were to help gather more people in the church (We do have a small congregation ) to hear about Jesus, and to just have more Christians in there, because it needs more people. So, I thought I'd do the evangelism one, because I love to tell people about Jesus. I could talk all day if I wanted to and never get bored about Jesus :D So anyway, I signed before thinking that, God is sending people out to the harvest to help people come to Him. After the service and I think when I was home, hopefully it was God who told me that hopefully this was an answered prayer! :D So anyway, that's one way I believe He made Himself known today.

Another was that I was having a hard time with some struggle I had, and something I've done in the past. About being worried that God wouldn't forgive me, because the struggle I have now. . .
Anyway, so today during the break between church and Sunday School, I went into the church kitchen by myself, and just prayed, "Can you please just assure me that I'll be forgiven, please!" And even before that, I was getting something in the car, and just begged him on my knees while in the car.
So after Sunday School and into the second service, the pastor, before we start the worship music, said (And I paraphrase), "If anyone is having a problem with themselves about not being able to forgive themselves or are wondering if God'll forgive them, just remember that what Jesus did on the cross payed for every sin that you did, and that you'll be forgiven by God."
"Wow!" I thought. What a burden that was lifted off of my shoulders that I can forget some stupid sins I've done, and that I was forgiven but was having a hard time believing it! So that was another way I believe today that God manifested Himself. It was out of nowhere, too. Whenever I went to the second service, I never heard him say that till today.

Now this is the most exciting one, the one from my mom's friend. A boy around 20 or so (I don't know his exact age at all, but I heard someone call him a number over twenty, hehehe) was going to the navy soon, and the pastors wanted to give him an annointing and pray for him that God'll be with him and take care of him.
I had a pushy feeling in me, saying, "Go up there and pray for him, too."
After a little more pushy feeling, I slid down the pew. I looked at the people praying for him near him, and then stood up, and walked over to him to also pray for him. I thought, "God, I'm not comfortable with putting my hands on someone else. I'm just not use to that now."
"Then just put part of your coat on someone else," God says to me, "and that'll be enough."
So I did that, and the most amazing shower of His peace and love just fell all over me. Like a taste of heaven (Although I know heaven will be an nth amount better!! ). So after experiencing that for a little (I still do have some of that with me. Amazing how He lets it go on so long, since He wants us to know Him more and better and be more devoted to Him), I was told to pray for him by God again. I did that (My mouth even felt like it was filled with God's Spirit, like He was giving me the right words to pray for him), and then walked back to my mom's friend. After the service, she said that she prayed that I would go up there. A little surprised, I asked her to repeat that. She said yes, she did pray that I'd go up there. I said to her (And I paraphrase), "Before I got up, I did have some sort of feeling to go up there and pray for him."
Then my mom's friend is surprised, and she said she'd had been so amazed she just felt dizzy, that she put her head down and didn't even go up there. I guess you can call that being "drunk in the Spirit," since you get so overwhelmed by God's presence and His filling people.

So, many, many, many, very much many, Christians don't have blind faith, because God reveals Himself in ways to people. Jesus is the Light, and Christians follow Him and try their best to be perfect like Him, just as He was perfect. They see the Light by faith, not be sight. Just as the verse says here,

2 Corinthians 5:7 - (For we walk by faith, not by sight <hr></blockquote>

Just wanted to post this to show that Christians are not as blind as people think. Very sorry that it's long, but, it was amazing and so great of God that He actually did these things today!

Hope this whole post helped even just a little!!

Cya and hope you all have a great day/week/year/life! =)

P.S. I copied/pasted just incase, and it helped a ton because it happened again!

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: SnorSnor ]</p>

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

y I always try to disprove Christianity:

I believe that part of the purpose of life is to expand our knowledge of the world we live in. Christianity gets in the way of that.
I also believe the purpose of life is to enjoy it. We only get one. Christians believe a lot of pleasurable things are sins. This withholds them from enjoying their lives. Now normally this wouldn't be so bad; if they want to mess up their lives I won't stop them. But since Christians insist on forcing their beliefs upon the rest of us, I need to stop them. Christians want to regulate what I can do in my bedroom. **** them. It's not their prerogative to dictate that sort of thing.

Another problem: Religion is a tool to control the weakminded. Could Hitler, Osama, etc have led the masses as easily without religion to help their cause? No. It's not just Christianity that I am opposed to, it is faith in general. Faith is like a disease of the mind.

So my reasons are pretty simple. Christians want to help people by letting them have an enjoyable afterlife. I want people to have an enjoyable life. Because this is it. There is no afterlife. It just hurts me to see so many people waste the only lives they get in vain hopes for an afterlife that will never come. Also, as an intellectual person, I just simply can't stand to see all the ignorance religion breeds.

-B