The atheist's journey - Religious Debate for the mature

[Ender_Wiggen]

A long time ago in India a group of wisemen went around India and had people draw a picture of Mount Everest(a mountian that by the way can be seen from all over India) and travel to it and show their picture to the people on top of it to find out some pieces of wisdom. Well when everyone got there they all had different pictures. They began to argue about who went to the right mountain and who went to the wrong mountain. When one the wisemen arrived at the scene they told all of the people that they arrived at the mountain and all the pictures were correct. They are all pictures of the mountain but they were taken from different perspectives.

This is what I feel is a good description of religon. Tell me which of your religons, beliefs are not about bringing truth and goodeness to the world. Even those who do not believe in a particuar religon or god like myself (although I'm thinking about Buddhism) are still looking for the mountain where the truth is. So why fight your petty fights about who's god is better. If you concentrated on the good points of other people's beliefs and stopped trying to find out little problems in their religous texts....

By the way most religous stories are not ment to be taken literaly.

 

[*Sabre_wulF*]

I am a Catholic, and I do get annoyed at heresies and so forth, but at this point in my life I'm starting to wonder..
It mainly was because on the discovery channel, there was a specail that said that the Vatican council invented heaven, **** , and purgatory so that poeple wouldn't think that they can get away with anything.
Then, someone who I sit next to in class starts talkign about dissbeliefs of parts of Christianity that were pretty convincing.
Then, I read this thing in my religion book at school: (I go to a Catholic school.): It asks who is in the center of God's heart? It listed Catholics, followed by Christians. It said that any good person who HASN'T heard of God will be in his heart, too.
Now that pisses me off. What about people who are Hindu or something of the sort, and HAVE heard of God? THey were raised to beleive in what they beleive, so it's not their fault if they deny God's existance.
I beleive it doesn't matter what you are, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, or Atheist, just as long as you are a good person on Earth.
Who wants to go through life being cautious of sins at every moment?
Certainly not I.
Did the inventers of religion do this to keep people's lives in balance? I certainly hope not. Religion seems so unbeleivable if you think about it. People say that God thought it was my Dad's time when he died. I refuse to beleive that, becuase if that was true, then God better come up with a pretty darn good explanation for screwing up my life and the rest of my family.
Religion started from the Greek and Roman's explanations for how things work, and then to things like the Egyption's Anubis or the Norse Thor. Native people of the the Americas, Australia, and Africa were full of their own beleifs in spirits and so forth, but then the Europeans stepped in and enforced their religion.
You think about the starving children in Ethiopia or Afghanistan, and all the Christian clergy can do is send a few Sisters and Brothers in to teach them religion, not help them. Now that's just annoying. Just like those Door-to-Door salespeople.
Religion doens't help, it hurts. Infact, if you think about it, Religion sparks up most wars. Think about it: The Crusades, The American Civil War, World War 2, The Korean Civil War, Desert Storm(I think that's what it's called..), and even the current War on Terrorism.
Religion does all of this bad. But yet no one can think of a world without religion. People wake up, praying to God, Olla, Buddha, or whoever.
But why?
Becuase they were raised that way.
Now I look at other Christian religions, and many seem annoying, including mine. My cousins, somehting called "Born-again" Christians, go to mass listening to poor Christian rock, and singing to it, looking like they are pleading for mercy. I just find religion to be somethign of great confusion. Sure, God, or whatever you call him, wants us to be happy, and to do this, we must first find World Peace: And this would resul
t from elimination of religion. If every Christian would just keep religion to themselves, none of thwese wars would have started... No one would have died in them.
Honestly, do you really beleive that a Giant FIsh swallowed a guy, and the guy lived? Or that a man fit all of the Animals on a boat? Or that the whole world started from one m,an and one woman? My Mom says that during this time, no one in the Roman Empire knew about the Natives in uncharted territories, yet they probably were there.
Sometimes I wish I could convert to something else, that this whole thing wasn't my disiscion at all. But something hold me back... this little question.. What if there is a God? Would he be upset with me if I left?
I feel that God still likes the Atheists. Just becuase they don't want to deal with the problems that cause as a result of religious clashes, they should not burn. For they are the smart ones.
That is all.

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: *Sabre_wulF* ]</p>

 

[Ender_Wiggen]

Even though I am not a Christian I find it somewhat offensive when you blame all the
worlds problems on it. But I also don't like it when all the followers of different sects
of it blame all the worlds problems on everyone else. As for the crusades it was just
the fault of greed something that no one is free of no matter weather or not they believe
in one or another religion

Here a brief history lesson most of you are either forgetting or don't know:
During most of the time after the Roman Empire collapsed the Papacy (the center of
the Christian Church{before Luther's reforms and the split}) was the most powerful
empire. Yes, an Empire as it controlled Rome and many of the Kings pledged their
alliance and land for its use. Well anyway the crusades was mainly organized so these
petty kings could remove the middleman (the Muslim states) from the silk road. The
silk road is a trading route that traders used to bring silk, tea and other items that the
Europeans could not create and only get from China. But the kings realized that if they
attacked Islamic states without approval of the Papacy they could get in trouble. What
if the Pope decided that in attacking that area they were disgracing holy land? In order
to get power and makes sure that the Pope doesn't decided that their just doing if for
there own benefit and have them killed or kick out of their lands they decided called
this invasion a Crusade and came up with the excuse that it was to kill the sinners who
took over the "rightfully" Christian land and reclaim it for the benefit of the Church.

Now this doesn't make it right, but it proves that the church is not always responsible
for what people do in its name. Many people were willing to use the church's name
for power and did many other horrible things in it. Just as Osama Bin Laudin is using
the Muslim faith to justify his attacks, they used the Christian faith to justify their
injustices. Now if we could look beyond these liars and tried to see good things about
other beliefs we may find out good things that we didn't know before.

 

[Kokichi]

Well put^. Also, I think Arrow mentioned this but I may be wrong, someone said to "Look at religion has done: Fed the hungry, clothed the naked, warmed the cold, etc." Well, that is just like saying that we, as the human race, need religion to do good things like that. There are good people in this world. Good people will do good things, regardless of the "cult" that they are in. I would gladly lend my sweater to someone that is cold, share my food with the hungry, vulenteer my time with kids. And, in fact, I do. Over the summer I work at a recreational camp for kids 5-12. It's a great place, and it sure is a lot of fun (free field trips, like Raging Waters, woohoo!). But I am not christian nor part of any religious cult. Yet I do good things. It is pathetic if you argue about the good things religion does, because if you take away religion, we can still do those things.

I believe that some religious beliefs are totally moronic and unmanly. For example, my uncle has 9 kids. Actually, he had 11, but 2 died. Why does he have so many kids? Is it because he could pay for it? Is it because he loves kids? No. It is because he and his wife are part of a religious "cult" that believes in having lots of kids. So, because of this, he is screwed. He can't pay his bills, he begs off of us and anyone he can, and the kids are having hard times. Some of them don't even go to school because my oncle and his wife can't pay for it. Plus, the church will only do so much as to feed them maybe 4 times a week. Also, mormons believe that the native americans (Indians) were origanlly from India or Jeursalem, which is completey absued. There is no evidence, never will be. Why? Because they believe in some fairy tales and in a book that could be lying. The majority of books are fiction. Why isn't the bible or their books?

Also, one other thing, according to the Bible, when Jesus died the "whole earth shook with a tremendous earthquake". You would think something like this would be recorded, seeing how big it would be. Yet it surprisingly remains unheard of in any way except for the Bible. No litterature, stories, antiques, nada.

O ya and here is one of the biggest laughs I get: Christians believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth with HUMANS! LOL! ROFLMAO! How stupid! If they did, there is a 100% probabiltiy that humans would write about it, make drawins, make stories, something, right? Nada. We have cave drawings of sabertoothcats, wooly mammoths, and wooly rhinoes that date back to the time when neanderthals, sabertoothcats, wooly mammoths, and wooly rhinoes too!

 

[Arrow]

*Sabre_wulF*: Actually, the Vatican did not invent heaven and **** ... the scriptures that first mention them were written over a thousand years before the Roman Catholic Church even existed. They did invent Purgatory though.

Originally posted by Kokichi:
<strong>Well put^. Also, I think Arrow mentioned this but I may be wrong...</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're wrong. I wasn't the one who said that. I completely agree that good people can do good things even if they aren't Christians. All I've ever tried to point out is that in God's eyes, they are still imperfect and must seek Salvation.

Originally posted by Kokichi:
<strong>Also, one other thing, according to the Bible, when Jesus died the "whole earth shook with a tremendous earthquake". You would think something like this would be recorded, seeing how big it would be. Yet it surprisingly remains unheard of in any way except for the Bible. No litterature, stories, antiques, nada.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um... ok, this was in 30 AD. How many detailed records do we have from 30 AD? Not many. Let's look at this logically. The earthquake was worldwide, yes. But how would those living at the time have known? They couldn't exactly turn on CNN or check on the internet. As far as they were concerned, it was just a local earthquake. And in what little recorded history we have from this time period, you don't see them writing about every local earthquake they ever had.

Originally posted by Kokichi:
<strong>O ya and here is one of the biggest laughs I get: Christians believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth with HUMANS! LOL! ROFLMAO! How stupid! If they did, there is a 100% probabiltiy that humans would write about it, make drawins, make stories, something, right? Nada. We have cave drawings of sabertoothcats, wooly mammoths, and wooly rhinoes that date back to the time when neanderthals, sabertoothcats, wooly mammoths, and wooly rhinoes too!</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're stereotyping again Kokichi. As I stated in an earlier post, not all Christians share the same beliefs about the world's origins. We all agree that God was the one who started it, but some believe it was through instantaneous creation, and some believe He caused the big bang and/or used evolution. Personally, I fall in the first category, but there are many Christians who don't believe humans were alive when dinosaurs were, so don't stereotype.

 

[Kokichi]

So when did they come alive and die??? It would have to be before the humans. Also, the earthquake was supposovly huge. Some, somewhere, would have recorded it. They did have that paper thing, papier, or something like that (made out of a river plant) back then. Also, how old is the Bible??? Plus, back then, many stories and occurences were passed on through generation in fables and stories. Surly someone must have noticed this. AND people back then didn't think "O, that earthquake was a 4.0 on the Rictor Scale". They didn't even have electricity or know that sex made babies back then. They all thought it was one of their many gods.

Sry for accusing you Arrow. Like I said, I didn't know, but I know that someone posted it.

 

[Ender_Wiggen]

I go to a Jesuit school and am forced to take a theology class so I should know about what church thinks. Anyway the Jesuit priest who teachs my class tells us repeatady that reading the scriptures litery is wrong. The earthquake may have just been used to emphathize the magnitute that Jesus' death had to his followers. Since I do not go to Church or am involved in the religon I can not verify this. So if a priest says to not take a literist view on the scriptures why are all you devoted followers doing it.

 

[*Sabre_wulF*]

Peter Wiggen, I'm not blaming the worlds problems on other religions. I'm saying that Religion, in general starts wars. You should have your eyes checked, becuase you obviously are just skimming through my post and making accusations.

 

[The Kirby Master]

I want both sides to think about this question:

"What if your wrong?"

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: The Kirby Master ]</p>

 

[SLaKKiCHu]

See, I tried and I tried and I tried.. but I just couldn't come up with an answer to your question! But then, I think that the problem may be that I don't know what a 'wroung' is, let alone if I am one or not.

Anyway.. I'll disregard everyone elses posts because I don't have the time nor inclination to read them all.. but I will toss in my point of view on the issue:

No.. wait.. I won't. I just tried to sum it up and I'm too tired, so it came out a garbled mess. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Misto-Roboto ]</p>

 

[Massy]

If I'm wrong, I spend enternity in the fiery pits of **** . and if I do, it shows that we do indeed have a lovely, caring, sharing God.

But if you're wrong, you've wasted your life being a moron.

Personally I'm willing to sacrifice what might be true (and I don't believe is true) for what I know is real, my life. Its "I think therefore I am" not "I think therefore I will be forever."

 

[Metal Tidus]

I haven't read all the other posts but here's my thinking on religion. I believe in everything in the bible. I also believe that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that jesus is your savior that you will be saved. I believe that if you are saved then you will go to heaven no matter what. Don't ask why I believe these things, I just do.

 

[Ghastriph]

But if you're wrong, you've wasted your life being a moron.<hr></blockquote>

This is what i don't get. If somebody believes in a god, why is that being moronic?

Athiests believe there is no god. That's still believing in something. does that make them morons?

I always hear that if you are believe in any type of religion, you must be brainwashed, or some BS like that.

Why can't it be the othe way around? Athiests being brainwashed by the "secular" society. "Truth". Yes, technically, all we really know is that we exist. But you don't think there's more than that?

I do. I feel it. There's something bigger than all this. And I believe in God.

If that makes me a moron. So be it. If it's coming from you, then I take it as a complement.

 

[JBird1203]

Originally posted by Ghastriph:
<strong>

This is what i don't get. If somebody believes in a god, why is that being moronic?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
He said that only IF you were wrong about the existence of a god. Read before you post.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Athiests believe there is no god. That's still believing in something. does that make them morons?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I believe that the milk I drink is white. I also believe I have fingernails. I could list thousands of examples, but there's two. believing in a proven fact does not make somebody a moron. It makes them someone who can register proven, common knowledge.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I always hear that if you are believe in any type of religion, you must be brainwashed, or some BS like that.

Why can't it be the othe way around? Athiests being brainwashed by the "secular" society. "Truth". Yes, technically, all we really know is that we exist. But you don't think there's more than that?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary brainwash is: persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship. Nobody came to my door and asked to be an atheist. It was a self-realization, and a logical realization at that.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I do. I feel it. There's something bigger than all this. And I believe in God.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I don't. I don't feel it. There isn't something bigger than this. And I DON'T believe in god, and my life has been better off since.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If that makes me a moron. So be it. If it's coming from you, then I take it as a complement.
and my life has been better off since.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
A complement (at least in my English II Honors class) is a phrase that complete's a sentence. That violates some kind of physics law. Hardly anyone will admit that they, themselves are a moron. I admire that. That was my first step towards atheism.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: JBird1203 ]</p>

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

JBird, please, you're not helping anyone by being a complete *******.
While you did do a good job rebutting Ghastriph's post (though there are holes he could intentionally misread which you'll have to cover up later), the insulting nature of calling him a moron and calling him out on a single spelling mistake were unnecessary.
Remind me to make a fool out of you if you ever make a spelling mistake. Jesus.

To elaborate on what JBird was getting at...

Ghastriph, you and many theists before you have made the same tired attempt at logic by saying atheists are just as "moronic" for believing in the non-existence of a god as Christians are for believing in one. Technically, when you are using the atheist term literally, this is true. Believing that a god without a doubt doesn't exist is as foolish as believing a god does exist. However, I'm pretty sure by atheists, you mean the popular definition, which is someone who just doesn't believe in a god, but doesn't necessarily believe in the nonexistence of one either. This is technically called an agnostic. Nobody seems to like that term, though...
The point here is being an agnostic isn't being moronic, because agnostics are the way they are because they use logic and reason. They'd believe in a god if they had any reason to...they just don't have any reason to. This is a completely different concept that that of having faith, and it is pure fallacy to try to make a logical correlation between the two.

-B

 

[Ghastriph]

Ghastriph, you and many theists before you have made the same tired attempt at logic by saying atheists are just as "moronic" for believing in the non-existence of a god as Christians are for believing in one. Technically, when you are using the atheist term literally, this is true. Believing that a god without a doubt doesn't exist is as foolish as believing a god does exist. However, I'm pretty sure by atheists, you mean the popular definition, which is someone who just doesn't believe in a god, but doesn't necessarily believe in the nonexistence of one either. This is technically called an agnostic. Nobody seems to like that term, though...
The point here is being an agnostic isn't being moronic, because agnostics are the way they are because they use logic and reason. They'd believe in a god if they had any reason to...they just don't have any reason to. This is a completely different concept that that of having faith, and it is pure fallacy to try to make a logical correlation between the two.<hr></blockquote>

no.no. I wasn't calling anybody a moron.

I just don't see why many Christians are considered brainwashed, or morons, for believing in what they believe. YES, many Christians are misguided, of course, nobody is perfect....I'm not.... But, I wasn't brainwashed into believing that Jesus is the son of God.

And thanks for clearing up the Athiest/Agnostic viewpoints and ideas. I try to be knowledgable on my arguements. I'll use the terms properly from now on.

 

[CaptFalcon]

Hello, everyone. My post is not going to be directed to anyone in particular, but please hear me out. There are a lot of people talking about how Christians are brainwashed, ignorant, blind, stupid, or whatever. I, being a Christian, feel the need to defend myself.
I am not brainwashed. I am not stupid. I am not ignorant. I've read enough books, taken enough classes, and seen enough TV shows to know about the evidence against Christianity about evolution and the Big Bang and such. In my eyes, there are perfectly sound explanations for evolution in a worldwide flood. There is documentation from other places (besides the Bible) about a worldwide flood. I believe in evolution to an extent-but not to the extent of one species changing completely to another.
About the Big Bang-I honestly have no idea how it fits into Christianity (that is, if it happened). The only explanation is the dreaded, God made the universe so that it expanded, excuse. Maybe the universe can't go on without moving- we know very little about our universe after all.
I think that some people have been "brainwashed" by stereotypical Christians into believing that Christians are idiots that can't think for themselves. I know one thing-I am not stupid, I am not brainwashed, I consider myself to be a very intelligent person, and I am confident that if you knew me outside the internet, you would probably like me (I don't have many enemies). I believe I could disprove all your false ideas about what Christians do and do not believe.
In short, I believe science and religion can fit together in some complicated puzzle that we have failed to piece together as of yet. Questions? Comments? Complaints? Random disgusting noises? Random funny videos? Sudden desire to talk about spider webs? Do you just want to talk? Do you want to ask me why I am so strange and well...strange? Please e-mail me or IM me at Andybob86@aol.com.

 

[Bumble Bee Tuna]

Hey no problem.

I have a problem with the terminology, still. I think there are really multiple classes of people, and only two terms to describe them.
There is the all out atheist/disbeliever: believes with absolute sureness that there nothing supernatural whatsoever
The agnostic athiest?: believes there is no god, but might believe in something supernatural like ghosts or an afterlife or reincarnation or who knows what
The atheistic agnostic (me): Believes in whatever he/she has reason to believe in, which currently does not include a higher power or anything supernatural (no proof or even reasonable evidence)
The theistic agnostic: One who believes there is SOMETHING, but they don't know what.
and there's probably more. But I won't complain. It's probably nothing compared to Christian terminology. Everyone says Christian, but since the Mormons, Baptists, Protestants, and Catholics all call themselves Christians, it's not such a useful term.

I have a terminology question of my own.
What do you call people who simply believe in the Bible as the word of God, and essentially nothing else? I.e. people who go to "Bible Churches". This is what my brother is. Are these people considered Protestants? I'm always unclear on this stuff.

BTW Merriam-Webster defines an atheist as "one who denies the existence of God". Atheists have some serious problems with this definition. It's not right. Webster was a Christian. By that definition, Muslims are atheists. (Note, "God" instead of "a god or gods"). If I had it my way, atheist would simply mean one who doesn't believe in a god or gods,but not in the sense that they had ruled out the possibility, which is the definition I've been told. Agnostic would mean someone who believed in something, but weren't really sure or didn't know what it really was.
I guess I should really describe myself as "atheistic agnostic" to get the point across.
But enough semantics already, they are oh so tiresome (yet necessary).

-B

 

[Kokichi]

Originally posted by CaptFalcon:
<strong>
I am not brainwashed. I am not stupid. I am not ignorant. </strong>

How can you be sure? If you are brainwashed, stupid, or ignorant, you wouldn't know it, now would you?
<strong>
Maybe the universe can't go on without moving- we know very little about our universe after all. </strong>

This is why I hate discussing religion with people who aren't 100% sure of what they say. We know a ton about our universe. We know how galaxies are made, stars are made, what stars are made of, how stars make elements, and, in fact, scientists strongly agree on everything the Big Bang theory states, all the way up to the very first part, where there are some arguments. Also, it was believed for a long time that our universe had expanded at a huge rate, then slowed down the expansion process. In the very most recent studies (about 1 month ago) we found out that our universe is still expanding, and, in fact, as time goes on, it expands faster. The article I read this on also discusses black holes, dark matter, dark energy, gravity, laws and theories, and the such. <strong>
I know one thing-I am not stupid, I am not brainwashed</strong>

How can you be sure? Not that I am calling you stupid or anything, but how can you be sure? <hr></blockquote>

 

[CaptFalcon]

***How can you be sure? If you are brainwashed, stupid, or ignorant, you wouldn't know it, now would you?***

Because like I said, I believe that there are ways science and religion can fit together, unlike some Christians. ***This is why I hate discussing religion with people who aren't 100% sure of what they say. We know a ton about our universe. We know how galaxies are made, stars are made, what stars are made of, how stars make elements, and, in fact, scientists strongly agree on everything the Big Bang theory states, all the way up to the very first part, where there are some arguments. Also, it was believed for a long time that our universe had expanded at a huge rate, then slowed down the expansion process. In the very most recent studies (about 1 month ago) we found out that our universe is still expanding, and, in fact, as time goes on, it expands faster. The article I read this on also discusses black holes, dark matter, dark energy, gravity, laws and theories, and the such.***

I have read Stephen Hawking's The Universe in a Nutshell, and many of the things we "know" are theoretical, and not actually proven.

 

[Ender_Wiggen]

How is weather or not the universe expanding related to belief in god. So what if the
universe is doing this or that. The question is who do you thinks pulling the strings,
god or gravity.

 

[JBird1203]

BBT- with my comment about complement-compliment: I was not trying to provoke anyone's anger, or start any flame wars. It was only a grammitical joke, and should be seen as a trifle. I'm not trying to be the grammar police here, I'm only trying to ease tensions a little, and not be an a55hole.

About the moron comment: I believe that he even said it himself. I made comment on that, and noted that I once felt like that.

Not every comment (especially on a video game board, but generally in life), Should be taken word for word. Take Eminem for example. I can honestly believe him when he says that he does not mean homosexuals when he says, "f@g." "F@g," is slang, and slang often has more than one use. That's just an example.

So please, don't let my, or anybody else's, comments be taken the wrong way. And please, tell me where, if I do, make any blatant and derogatory comments. Again, I'm not trying to get people riled up, just telling my views without disrespect. I refrain from saying "Christians are dumb," and related, thoughtless comments. And I only quoted, "brainwash," because it was asked if indeed, atheists were brainwashed by society. I defined it, just to show how I, personally believe that I wasn't brainwashed. Never in my previous post did I mention that anyone one person/group of religious followers were brainwashed. Thank for your time, and BTW: What a great, discussional topic!

 

[CaptFalcon]

***How is weather or not the universe expanding related to belief in god. So what if the
universe is doing this or that. The question is who do you thinks pulling the strings,
god or gravity.***


God "pulls the strings" through gravity.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I don't like the brainwashed tones of these posts. "Any scientific discovery must have been made by god." So much for thinking for yourself.

 

[CaptFalcon]

***I don't like the brainwashed tones of these posts. "Any scientific discovery must have been made by god." So much for thinking for yourself.***


Where did anyone say that any scientific discoveries were made by God?

 

[Crono]

It's time Crono joined the debate.

Well, first of all, I've noticed this topic has gone from mature to whiney. Grow up, guys.

I'd just like to mention my home internet is kinda screwy, which is why I've been away for 2 months. I'm actually sending this post via my local public library. :D

Anyway.. if you've been to the previous debate "Mature Religious Discussion," you already have an idea of my beliefs. I'm an atheist, and I tend to shoot down anything illogical that people throw in my face. I'm just one of those people that can't stand ignorance. There are just far too many stupid people. Believing in a deity is fine, as long as it is logical. Like deists.. they're pretty logical, even though I don't totally agree with them. For the misinformed, deists believe a god created the universe and mankind and then totally abandoned us and cannot be known. That's not a bad philosophy, really.

I'm not really getting at anything, because I didn't read through this entire topic. If I see something, I'll debate it (unless I leave the library soon..)

 

[Gamer4Fire]

It's more to the point of any thing that can't be explained, is explained by god, and anything that can be explained, is done so with the help of god. "The big bang was created by god." That goes directly against the bible, yet Christians believe that since we proved the bible wrong, anything that we come up with must have been done by the divinity of god. That includes any man made miracles. However, this type of thinking excludes humanity from the equation of the universe and instead puts all the power and responsibility in the hands of another. This is wrong since the power is obviously held by people, and the people must also hold the responsibility. Which is why in theocratic governments, it is okay to kill, maim and destroy, because the ultimate responsibility isn't theirs, but their god's. So they are not responsible for the millions that they hurt. This isn't limited to other people they hurt, but their own people. They have practices of beating their women to death, because god said it was right. The husband is not responsible for the death of another. This disassociation increases the void between each fellow man, instead of bringing them closer together. In the end the religion destroys us by making us inhuman, since we are merely the puppets of a god. Since such reasoning is illogical and thus wrong, it follows that since religion is the instrument of destruction, that it must also be wrong.

If you anyone has anything else to say, say it. I must ask you, however, how can being religious be closer to god be right, when you are going further away from your fellow man? It would be nice to follow divinity and become divine, but the loss of humanity makes it a loss. Why try to be something better than human, if you must sacrifice everything it means to be human and alive to do so?

 

[CaptFalcon]

***It's more to the point of any thing that can't be explained, is explained by god, and anything that can be explained, is done so with the help of god. "The big bang was created by god." That goes directly against the bible, yet Christians believe that since we proved the bible wrong, anything that we come up with must have been done by the divinity of god.***

Wait a second-you're stereotyping. Not very many Christians believe God started the Big Bang. At least in my area, this type of Christian is a minority. Sorry, but no one ever proved the Bible wrong-people have pointed out things they thought were contradictions, but really misunderstand the Bible.

***That includes any man made miracles.***


Man made miracles? Such as...

***However, this type of thinking excludes humanity from the equation of the universe and instead puts all the power and responsibility in the hands of another. This is wrong since the power is obviously held by people, and the people must also hold the responsibility. Which is why in theocratic governments, it is okay to kill, maim and destroy, because the ultimate responsibility isn't theirs, but their god's. So they are not responsible for the millions that they hurt. This isn't limited to other people they hurt, but their own people. They have practices of beating their women to death, because god said it was right. The husband is not responsible for the death of another. This disassociation increases the void between each fellow man, instead of bringing them closer together. In the end the religion destroys us by making us inhuman, since we are merely the puppets of a god. Since such reasoning is illogical and thus wrong, it follows that since religion is the instrument of destruction, that it must also be wrong.
If you anyone has anything else to say, say it. I must ask you, however, how can being religious be closer to god be right, when you are going further away from your fellow man? It would be nice to follow divinity and become divine, but the loss of humanity makes it a loss. Why try to be something better than human, if you must sacrifice everything it means to be human and alive to do so?***


All this goes back to the long, long discussions we had about God-given free will a while back. I thought it was explained pretty well...

 

[Crono]

Wait a second-you're stereotyping. Not very many Christians believe God started the Big Bang. At least in my area, this type of Christian is a minority. Sorry, but no one ever proved the Bible wrong-people have pointed out things they thought were contradictions, but really misunderstand the Bible. <hr></blockquote>

Right. The majority of xians believe 6 billion people came from only 2 within a span of 6,000 years. Everyone would be so inbred they'd be totally braindead. I like how xians say incest is wrong, but it is so prevalent in the bible.

 

[Crono]

Nothing angers or annoys me more than when a xian says "You don't believe in God? You must be controlled by satan!" Idiots. That's religious zeal for you.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Originally posted by CaptFalcon:
<strong>Wait a second-you're stereotyping. Not very many Christians believe God started the Big Bang. At least in my area, this type of Christian is a minority. Sorry, but no one ever proved the Bible wrong-people have pointed out things they thought were contradictions, but really misunderstand the Bible.

</strong>Actually, current surveys show that the majority of Christians believe in the big bang, and that God created it.
-Time Magazine

Which puts you in the minority.<strong>

Man made miracles? Such as...

</strong>Lets see, heart transplants, stopping of natural disasters by human intervention, the splitting of the atom, the fusion of the hydrogen atoms, revolutionary theory, computers, anything that has to do with science, etc.<strong>

All this goes back to the long, long discussions we had about God-given free will a while back. I thought it was explained pretty well...</strong>

Then why do you depend on god so much? If we are given free will, away from divine intervention, allowed to do as we please, and control our destiny, why do you ask god to control the world for you? Isn't it up to you to choose god, but to help your fellow man yourself? If a man murders your family, do you ask god to punish him or do you punish him? Do you seek justice (which is actually an idea without a basis in reality, which is really weird) or does justice come from god at the man's death? Do you have any rights given to you by divine providence or is life merely a privilege afforded to you by a supernatural being? Why do you hope for death, and not try to save life before death? Is your and my life really that insignificant to you? Why must we be governed by god who gives us free will to govern ourselves? God's plan in communist, but man cannot live within a communist society. It has been proven wrong. How must we live under god when, in doing so, will destroy us? How is that the act of a loving god to see his children commit suicide upon his alter?<hr></blockquote>

 

[CaptFalcon]

***Right. The majority of xians believe 6 billion people came from only 2 within a span of 6,000 years. Everyone would be so inbred they'd be totally braindead. I like how xians say incest is wrong, but it is so prevalent in the bible.***


6,000 years, at the minimum. The world may be up to 15 or 20,000 years old. Tell me, why would there have to be incestuous relationships for the rate of growth to be that great? Sure, there would have to be incest at first, but how else would you expect them to reproduce? Maybe the people in that time had a lot of kids.

***Nothing angers or annoys me more than when a xian says "You don't believe in God? You must be controlled by satan!" Idiots. That's religious zeal for you.***

Was this directed towards me, or was it just a random comment? If it was directed to me, I never said anything of the sort. Oh, and people who don't believe in God are not controlled by Satan anyway...


***Actually, current surveys show that the majority of Christians believe in the big bang, and that God created it.
-Time Magazine***


OK, then. That's an interesting fact. Thanks for pointing that out to me.


***Lets see, heart transplants, stopping of natural disasters by human intervention, the splitting of the atom, the fusion of the hydrogen atoms, revolutionary theory, computers, anything that has to do with science, etc.***


These were not actions of God himself. Sure, God gave the power to do these things to humans, but its not like God himself came to earth and did these things.


***Then why do you depend on god so much? If we are given free will, away from divine intervention, allowed to do as we please, and control our destiny, why do you ask god to control the world for you?***


I don't ask God to do that--he already does.

***Isn't it up to you to choose god, but to help your fellow man yourself?***


Yes, I chose God. I ask God to give me the caring soul I need to help my fellow man. God gives you abilities, you use them at your own disposal-God does not have strings attached to you controlling you like a puppet.

***If a man murders your family, do you ask god to punish him or do you punish him? Do you seek justice (which is actually an idea without a basis in reality, which is really weird) or does justice come from god at the man's death?***


It is totally up to God whether He punishes that man or not. I shouldn't ask God to punish him, nor should I punish him myself- that's God's job.

***Do you have any rights given to you by divine providence or is life merely a privilege afforded to you by a supernatural being?***


Its a little of both. God doesn't have to let me live another second, but at the same time, I have lots of rights- as long as I don't sin- which really isn't as bad as most people think. I have absolutely no problem having fun in life.

***Why do you hope for death, and not try to save life before death? Is your and my life really that insignificant to you?***


By no means do I hope for death...sure, according to my beliefs, death will be much better than life here on earth, but I may or may not be done serving my purpose on earth. Maybe some people are sheltered and avoid trying to save lives, but not me. Our lives are priceless.


***Why must we be governed by god who gives us free will to govern ourselves? God's plan in communist, but man cannot live within a communist society. It has been proven wrong. How must we live under god when, in doing so, will destroy us? How is that the act of a loving god to see his children commit suicide upon his alter?***


Humans are corrupt beings. If we were left to govern ourselves, then we would probably be in big trouble. It's kind of like this: say the federal gov't is God, and the state gov'ts are individual human beings. Each state is free to make their own laws as long as they abide by federal laws. In the Civil War, the south broke away from the Union (in the analogy, they rebelled against God). If the South had won that war, do you think their government would have lasted for long? I certainly do not. In the same way, when we rebel against God, we cannot survive spiritually. God is not a communist. I can almost see what you mean by this, but they are really 2 totally different things.

 

[Kokichi]

Um, Capt dude, why the **** do you do these little *** things? You could just do the quote thing. It's a bit more organized if you ask me.

Also, Capt, you seem to be saying that "God pulls the strings of gravity", as if agreeing that the Big Bang did happen, then you turn around and say "Wait a second. Most Xians don't believe in the Big Bang." You need to make up your mind. Either it happened or it didn't. You can't defend both sides. You can attack both (like we are) yet you aren't. See, that's the thing with religion and science. In Science and the Big Bang theory, you only have that one thing to happen, and we back it up. In religion, you have stuff like "There is no Big Bang" and "There is a Big Bang". There are lots of empty ties like that. Plus, for the inbred thing, it could be true, G4F, I mean, the Bible does, after all, promote **** in more ways then one

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Originally posted by CaptFalcon:
<strong>These were not actions of God himself. Sure, God gave the power to do these things to humans, but its not like God himself came to earth and did these things.

</strong>Then why do you thank god when he did nothing?<strong>


I don't ask God to do that--he already does.

</strong>So you mean, free will is an illusion?<strong>

Yes, I chose God. I ask God to give me the caring soul I need to help my fellow man. God gives you abilities, you use them at your own disposal-God does not have strings attached to you controlling you like a puppet.

</strong>Why ask god for a trait that should be brought out from within, and not from another source?<strong>

It is totally up to God whether He punishes that man or not. I shouldn't ask God to punish him, nor should I punish him myself- that's God's job.

</strong>So justice is irrelavent?<strong>


Its a little of both. God doesn't have to let me live another second, but at the same time, I have lots of rights- as long as I don't sin- which really isn't as bad as most people think. I have absolutely no problem having fun in life.

</strong>So life isworthless? And no, god gives man no rights. A right is an idea of man, not god.<strong>


Humans are corrupt beings. If we were left to govern ourselves, then we would probably be in big trouble. It's kind of like this: say the federal gov't is God, and the state gov'ts are individual human beings. Each state is free to make their own laws as long as they abide by federal laws. In the Civil War, the south broke away from the Union (in the analogy, they rebelled against God). If the South had won that war, do you think their government would have lasted for long? I certainly do not. In the same way, when we rebel against God, we cannot survive spiritually. God is not a communist. I can almost see what you mean by this, but they are really 2 totally different things.</strong>

We seem to be doing just fine without god. Who is to say that the south would have collapsed? They might have done just as well or better.

And yes, god is, by definition, communist.<hr></blockquote>

 

[Ender_Wiggen]

Is it just be or is quote thing getting out of hand. If you have one quote at the beginning of the post its good but all these posts that are just quotes with spaces in them are just eye sores.

It seems to me that the entire argument has gone to who believes in predestionation and who doesn't. Predestionation is the belief that your future has been planed out already. I personally don't.

I personally believe my choices aren't already choosen and no large man in the sky is telling me to go against my evil self. The idea that humanity is evil was just created to gain power. If someone believes that what they think is evil they are more likely to believe anything someone "without" this evil says.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Originally posted by Crono:
<strong>Nothing angers or annoys me more than when a xian says "You don't believe in God? You must be controlled by satan!" Idiots. That's religious zeal for you. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sure most of you are aware of the state of K-Mart right now. Well, while I was working there a few days ago, some lady was telling me to make sure to pray to God and when I responded that I do not believe in a God, she instantly retorted, "Well, you better...soon..." I came very close to *****-slapping her and losing my job if I had opened my mouth after that. Luckily I had more customers in my line so I just shrugged it off.

 

[CaptFalcon]

Originally posted by Kokichi:
<strong>Um, Capt dude, why the **** do you do these little *** things? You could just do the quote thing. It's a bit more organized if you ask me.

Also, Capt, you seem to be saying that "God pulls the strings of gravity", as if agreeing that the Big Bang did happen, then you turn around and say "Wait a second. Most Xians don't believe in the Big Bang." You need to make up your mind. Either it happened or it didn't. You can't defend both sides. You can attack both (like we are) yet you aren't. See, that's the thing with religion and science. In Science and the Big Bang theory, you only have that one thing to happen, and we back it up. In religion, you have stuff like "There is no Big Bang" and "There is a Big Bang". There are lots of empty ties like that. Plus, for the inbred thing, it could be true, G4F, I mean, the Bible does, after all, promote **** in more ways then one </strong><hr></blockquote>


I was using the little *** things, because for some reason, the quote button wouldn't work. Sorry about that.

You're right...maybe I do need to rethink my beliefs about the beginning of the universe. But in all honesty, that isn't the important thing. The important thing is whether or not God did it.

That's because everyone has different beliefs about things like this. Some people believe there was a Big Bang and some people don't. It's because religion is based on faith that there are so many different beliefs. If people want to include science in, they do, if they don't, they don't...I'm a little of both.

Give me a verse in the Bible that promotes ****.

I will use the *** again-sorry.


***Then why do you thank god when he did nothing?***


God did do something. He gave me things.

***So you mean, free will is an illusion?***


Once again, I suggest you do a search to look for the topic that was solely about this sort of thing. Free will is not an illusion- not at all. God does control the world- he knows what I am going to decide to do with my free will. God knew that you would eventually decide to become an atheist/agnostic (not exactly sure what you are). It isn't as if God MADE you do that. You made the choice, but God knew you would make the choice.


***Why ask god for a trait that should be brought out from within, and not from another source?***

God gives us abilities when we are born... I could ask God to strengthen those abilities that I already have. Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear.


***So justice is irrelavent?***


No, God knows what he is doing. I just have to learn to have faith in God. If a man murders my family, I have to have faith that justice will be served in one way or another. But, I also have to accept it if God decides not to serve justice to this man. A lot of this is VERY hard to explain.


***So life isworthless? And no, god gives man no rights. A right is an idea of man, not god.***

That depends on your definition of a worthwhile life. My definition is a life lived to its fullest, without sin, with a lot of people brought to Christ. So if my life meets those criteria, I have lived a worthwhile life. God gives everyone's life worth in some form or another through what he had planned for them. Oh really? God gives man no rights? It was my understanding that free will gives us a lot of rights.


***We seem to be doing just fine without god. Who is to say that the south would have collapsed? They might have done just as well or better.

And yes, god is, by definition, communist.***


The key word there is seem. If I'm right, you aren't doing just fine without God. Satan was an angel. He is not some ugly red guy with a pitchfork. He is a beautiful angel with a corrupt heart, and he is a deceiver. I'm not saying you are controlled by Satan- I'm saying we can all be misguided by Satan. The South would have had slavery and very little industry. They didn't have the best ingredients for a successful country. Give me your definition of communism. Even if God is a communist, God is perfect. People here on earth screw up- God does not.

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: CaptFalcon ]</p>

 

[Massy]

Once again, I suggest you do a search to look for the topic that was solely about this sort of thing. Free will is not an illusion- not at all. God does control the world- he knows what I am going to decide to do with my free will. God knew that you would eventually decide to become an atheist/agnostic (not exactly sure what you are). It isn't as if God MADE you do that. You made the choice, but God knew you would make the choice.<hr></blockquote>

One again, for the cranially challenged, that is not free will. Free will is when my choice determines the outcome. If god already knows what the outcome will be, then the outcome is pre-determined, and therefore not a product of my will.

And communism is the doctrine of living comunally, to share equally and nothing more. Possesions would be owned by everyone, not by the state or by individuals. Gamer4Fire's original assertion was incorrect however, in stating that "it has been proven man cannot exist in a communist society" when no communist society has ever existed. (At this moment, I feel it necessary to point out that anyone who exclaims "North Korea is Communist, and China too!111" is a cretin of the highest order, and shall be treated as such.)

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: Massy ]</p>

 

[CaptFalcon]

Originally posted by Massy:
<strong>

One again, for the cranially challenged, that is not free will. Free will is when my choice determines the outcome. If god already knows what the outcome will be, then the outcome is pre-determined, and therefore not a product of my will. </strong>


Your choice does determine the outcome...God just knows what that outcome is. But God never tells me what to do. He knows the outcome, but he has never told me what the outcome is. The free will is still yours. And really, like whoever that was said, this does all come down to whether you believe in predestination or not.


<strong>And communism is the doctrine of living comunally, to share equally and nothing more. Possesions would be owned by everyone, not by the state or by individuals. Gamer4Fire's original assertion was incorrect however, in stating that "it has been proven man cannot exist in a communist society" when no communist society has ever existed. (At this moment, I feel it necessary to point out that anyone who exclaims "North Korea is Communist, and China too!111" is a cretin of the highest order, and shall be treated as such.)</strong>


This is what I was trying to get at when I said God was perfect, humans are not. Thanks.

<hr></blockquote>

[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: CaptFalcon ]</p>