The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[smashmachine]

I could see this being a thing if used with crouch cancelling.

well, that's kind of a stretch to be fair

anyway, any time a post mentions "cheap", "too hard", or "fun", it's automatically on red alert for being a bad post

 

[guedes the brawler]

MINDGAMES. If you are constantly L-canceling, you can play with your opponent by not L-canceling here and there. Like it was said above, this can bait your opponent or otherwise cause him to make a miscalculation.

Not only this, but you can also shield things to mess up the enemy's timing.


Auto-L cancelling would be kinda nice, but i dunno man. i think it would be more interesting to have a lower % of auto-cancelled lag (30%) that is always on, but you can trun it off and try to go for normal, 50% L-cancels.

Or maybe have L-cancelling deal a bit of damage to your shield. After all, it's a tech that is using the Shield button, no?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't disagree with tech skill i would just rather inputs be more logical to the game and not look like im watching a dust storm from wave dashing. This is coming from a person who could wave dash quite well.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I don't disagree with tech skill i would just rather inputs be more logical to the game and not look like im watching a dust storm from wave dashing. This is coming from a person who could wave dash quite well.

Well the main reason why wavedashing was so exploited was because it gave characters a more lenient way of approaching, due to the fact that you're moving but the game still considers it standing. This means that you can preform actions like smash attacks while still retaining a sense of spacing and can be used for mind games. With the mechanic gone, I feel as though there should of been a compensation of some sort that would of been easier to preform, for example an air dash akin to the kind you'd see in other fighting games.

 

[NFTsmasher]

This does not make any sense.

It's like if you said "Instead of shielding, I'll just let my opponent hit me a couple of times! MINDGAMES!"

I guess what you're thinking is if you're on the offensive and you're right beside your opponent, then not L-canceling would leave you open to be hit. But perhaps you throw out an attack from further away to bait.

Even if this isn't too great of an argument for L-canceling, there have been plenty written above in favor of it. I was trying to add as many points as possible.

 

[Dimir]

Even if this isn't too great of an argument for L-canceling, there have been plenty written above in favor of it. I was trying to add as many points as possible.

I'm not exactly convinced that L-Cancelling adds much to the game in terms of mind games. I would think it is generally perceived that not L-cancelling your aerials is a bad thing. Sure, sometimes doing something nobody would expect because it is 'bad' can be favorable, but I just can't get behind the idea of adding more landing lag to my attack because I think it will mess my opponent up. Respectfully, I disagree.

Wavedash, on the other hand, adds an entirely new option of mobility in the game, further diversifying characters and and allowing skilled players to express themselves through their gameplay.

 

[Vkrm]

I'm not exactly convinced that L-Cancelling adds much to the game in terms of mind games. I would think it is generally perceived that not L-cancelling your aerials is a bad thing. Sure, sometimes doing something nobody would expect because it is 'bad' can be favorable, but I just can't get behind the idea of adding more landing lag to my attack because I think it will mess my opponent up. Respectfully, I disagree.

Wavedash, on the other hand, adds an entirely new option of mobility in the game, further diversifying characters and and allowing skilled players to express themselves through their gameplay.

Well for one thing characters aren't in their neutral state after fudging up a cancel. One thing you can do with ness is Bair Ganons shield with ness without cancelling. Ness kneels down low enough that Ganon can not shield grab you and you can punish the grab attempt.

 

[Dimir]

Well for one thing characters aren't in their neutral state after fudging up a cancel. One thing you can do with ness is Bair Ganons shield with ness without cancelling. Ness kneels down low enough that Ganon can not shield grab you and you can punish the grab attempt.

Thank you for educating me with a good example.

 

[guedes the brawler]

techs are nice.

sakurai should wait for a few months and make a patch with tutorials.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well the main reason why wavedashing was so exploited was because it gave characters a more lenient way of approaching, due to the fact that you're moving but the game still considers it standing. This means that you can preform actions like smash attacks while still retaining a sense of spacing and can be used for mind games. With the mechanic gone, I feel as though there should of been a compensation of some sort that would of been easier to preform, for example an air dash akin to the kind you'd see in other fighting games.

No need to explain wave dashing i know its purpose and yeah i wouldn't be bad to have some sort of air dash but most likely it won't happen but im pretty sure smash 4 will yield its own form of comboing.

 

[LancerStaff]

Certainly glad I left when I did lol.

Anyways, I suppose I never answered the topic's title. (Did anybody ever?) I don't hate tech skill, I just see it as arbitrary. Who cares how hard a move is to pull off? What matters more is the utilization. Intentionally hard moves just increases the rate of failure, akin to tripping. (Case in point, 90% of DACUSes.) The difficultly should solely be coming from fighting the opponent in my opinion.

 

[smashmachine]

techs are nice.

sakurai should wait for a few months and make a patch with tutorials.

ahahahahaha yeah right, like that would happen
Did I laugh enough yet? ahahahaha

 

[NFTsmasher]

techs are nice.

sakurai should wait for a few months and make a patch with tutorials.

That's what I was saying

 

[NFTsmasher]

Certainly glad I left when I did lol.

Anyways, I suppose I never answered the topic's title. (Did anybody ever?) I don't hate tech skill, I just see it as arbitrary. Who cares how hard a move is to pull off? What matters more is the utilization. Intentionally hard moves just increases the rate of failure, akin to tripping. (Case in point, 90% of DACUSes.) The difficultly should solely be coming from fighting the opponent in my opinion.

I know it's hard to draw a line between simple and "arbitrary", but what you suggest would be akin to Chess or a non-video game. There will always be certain level of execution required.

I'm more concerned about characters that really rely on certain tricks to be most effective like I think Lucas uses some sort of jump cancel to combo attacks, am I right? And I just recently met a player who does something really hard to execute that basically allows Pikachu to constantly use Agility again and again after landing on a platform. That's why I prefer more heavy hitting characters that rely more on fundamental spacing and fewer precise hits in order to land the KO.

 

[Empyrean]

I know it's hard to draw a line between simple and "arbitrary", but what you suggest would be akin to Chess or a non-video game. There will always be certain level of execution required.

I'm more concerned about characters that really rely on certain tricks to be most effective like I think Lucas uses some sort of jump cancel to combo attacks, am I right? And I just recently met a player who does something really hard to execute that basically allows Pikachu to constantly use Agility again and again after landing on a platform. That's why I prefer more heavy hitting characters that rely more on fundamental spacing and fewer precise hits in order to land the KO.

For the Pikachu part, it's called Quick-Attack-Cancelling (QAC), and it can be done by holding down as the move ends, if I'm not mistaking. It was a Brawl/PM exclusive technique, and honestly, I would like to see more character-specific techs like that.

 

[NFTsmasher]

For the Pikachu part, it's called Quick-Attack-Cancelling (QAC), and it can be done by holding down as the move ends, if I'm not mistaking. It was a Brawl/PM exclusive technique, and honestly, I would like to see more character-specific techs like that.

Yeah, I think that's cool too, but what I'm actually worried about is whether that sort of technique should be required to be used to stay even with other characters as far as balance is concerned. So should the game be balanced while considering and expecting that all Pikachus must QAC to win or something along those lines with regard to other characters?

In other words, "this character would only be good if you use this one special tech/technique or play this one way."

Of course, there are plenty of characters, so maybe it would just be an issue of switching characters so that your chosen character better suits your play-style.

 

[Empyrean]

Yeah, I think that's cool too, but what I'm actually worried about is whether that sort of technique should be required to be used to stay even with other characters as far as balance is concerned. So should the game be balanced while considering and expecting that all Pikachus must QAC to win or something along those lines with regard to other characters?

In other words, "this character would only be good if you use this one special tech/technique or play this one way."

Of course, there are plenty of characters, so maybe it would just be an issue of switching characters so that your chosen character better suits your play-style.

To stay with the Pikachu example, the simple answer would be "not necessarily". One is still able to win if he doesn't use QAC. However, if one day he meets another Pikachu main who uses QAC efficiently, than the former will have to rely more on fundamentals and reads to keep up and possibly beat the latter. QAC is one of many tools in Pikachu's arsenal and was not designed to be over-centralizing by any means. A smart player would opt to use every weapon at his disposal at the right time. Of course, knowing how to QAC is never enough; a player could go trigger-happy and Quick Attack all over the place. Would he be getting somewhere? No. However, if he cancelled the tech into a jump-cancelled up-smash, then he could potentially kill a careless opponent at very low percents (Pikachu's up-smash is the strongest in the game).

Take Chudat for instance. He has a PM Pikachu but never uses QAC. Is he any good? Yes, a few months ago he made it to grand finals with Pikachu but got bopped by M2K's Fox. On the other hand, take Anther, a Pikachu main who masters QAC. He recently faced M2K and beat his Fox with no trouble. In this case, the only notable difference between both players is the use of QAC. Of course, this is only one example, and there are certainly other factors that come into play, but I chose 2 players of roughly equal skill (from what I've seen), so I judge it to be a solid example.

While I only focused on QAC here, the same can be applied to any similar technique. As of now, there aren't any characters that heavily rely on one tech in Smash Bros, so I wouldn't worry too much for Smash 4.

 

[Vkrm]

Okay. We've tried to establish tech skill for tech skill's sake is bad. So without technical skill what else should determine player skill? The obvious answer would be good decision making elements which necessitate giving players a respectable number of options to choose from. To ensure that the inputs can be done quickly and distinct from each other (to be absolutely certain that a single input can't trigger unintended actions) you just have accept that some moves are going to be more complex than others, as long it's a truely deep game you're trying to make.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Okay. We've tried to establish tech skill for tech skill's sake is bad. So without technical skill what else should determine player skill? The obvious answer would be good decision making elements which necessitate giving players a respectable number of options to choose from. To ensure that the inputs can be done quickly and distinct from each other (to be absolutely certain that a single input can't trigger unintended actions) you just have accept that some moves are going to be more complex than others, as long it's a truely deep game you're trying to make.

The concept behind smash is something everybody can grasp. So technically no we don't have to accept over complex moves because thats not what the game or sakurai promised.

 

[NFTsmasher]

The concept behind smash is something everybody can grasp. So technically no we don't have to accept over complex moves because thats not what the game or sakurai promised.

So you'd rather not have something that is easy to learn, but difficult to master?

 

[LancerStaff]

So you'd rather not have something that is easy to learn, but difficult to master?

The skill comes in with understanding the exact reach of character's hitboxes, which attacks beat what, and reading the opponent. A casual player isn't going to understand mindgames.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So you'd rather not have something that is easy to learn, but difficult to master?

Not what i intended to come off. What im saying is that a 10 year old may not under stand wave dashing or l canceling but what sakurai's goal is to make a system where everyone can grasp all the controls or movements, and what makes someone better is there skill with said system.

 

[NFTsmasher]

The skill comes in with understanding the exact reach of character's hitboxes, which attacks beat what, and reading the opponent. A casual player isn't going to understand mindgames.

I think you misinterpreted my stance. I'd rather have a game that's easy to get into but also has a high skill ceiling. That's one reason I love Smash.

 

[Snakeyes]

Smash 64 is simple but all the matchs look the same, they just consist of zoning and spacing! Sure it is cool after like 2 days but then it gets boring.

rofl

You've never played competitive 64, have you?

 

[LancerStaff]

I think you misinterpreted my stance. I'd rather have a game that's easy to get into but also has a high skill ceiling. That's one reason I love Smash.

No, I get it. That's just my stance.

 

[Vkrm]

The concept behind smash is something everybody can grasp. So technically no we don't have to accept over complex moves because thats not what the game or sakurai promised.

you just have accept that some moves are going to be more complex than others, as long it's a truly deep game you're trying to make.

 

[LancerStaff]

you just have accept that some moves are going to be more complex than others, as long it's a truely deep game you're trying to make.

Techs will always be a part of SSB, but not necessarily unintentional ones like Wavedashing and the DACUS. The ICs will always have complex combos of some sort, Pit has arrow aiming/looping and Wingdashing, Peach has her float and there's others. Not everybody is designed to be a technical character.

 

[xandre]

I think you misinterpreted my stance. I'd rather have a game that's easy to get into but also has a high skill ceiling. That's one reason I love Smash.

welcome to hell.

 

[NFTsmasher]

welcome to hell.

Is this supposed to be scary?
I'll rek you

lol

 

[smashmachine]

Is this supposed to be scary?
I'll rek you

lol

pls, I'll wreck you with

 

[Johnknight1]

Definition time!!!!

Technical: Having special and usually practical knowledge especially of a mechanical or scientific subject

Skill: The learned ability to carry out a task with pre-determined results often within a given amount of time, energy, or both.

So basically if we get rid of technical skill, we lose all control of our characters.

It would literally be us not playing

And instead watching a (pre-determined) match.

So to be literal, anyone arguing against technical skill, or "tech skill" for short, they want Smash to not be a video game (series), but something you watch.

 

[D-idara]

Definition time!!!!

Technical: Having special and usually practical knowledge especially of a mechanical or scientific subject

Skill: The learned ability to carry out a task with pre-determined results often within a given amount of time, energy, or both.

So basically if we get rid of technical skill, we lose all control of our characters.

It would literally be us not playing

And instead watching a (pre-determined) match.

So to be literal, anyone arguing against technical skill, or "tech skill" for short, they want Smash to not be a video game (series), but something you watch.

Missing the context of the question time!

 

[Johnknight1]

Missing the context of the question time!

What that people don't like mechanics that are more complex and require 3 buttons=???

Boohoo, you gotta press down-left/right, A, and L or R at roughly the same time to wavedash. So hard.

If you can't do something that complex, whether it's shield grabbing and throwing immediately (A+L or R+up/left/down/right), various misc techs, etc. then you just aren't any good.

You shouldn't be rewarded for being not good at something just because you refuse to get better at something.

If you don't want to get better, fine, but that doesn't mean you have to spoil everyone else's fun.

It's like a high school dropout telling a peer with a Ph.d it's unfair that they got that Ph.d, even though they earned it.

Some of the people here who hate tech skill probably go so far as to hate on the idea of DI, which thus basically makes a video series, not a video game series.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

What that people don't like mechanics that are more complex and require 3 buttons=???

Boohoo, you gotta press down-left/right, A, and L or R at roughly the same time to wavedash. So hard.

If you can't do something that complex, whether it's shield grabbing and throwing immediately (A+L or R+up/left/down/right), various misc techs, etc. then you just aren't any good.

You shouldn't be rewarded for being not good at something just because you refuse to get better at something.

If you don't want to get better, fine, but that doesn't mean you have to spoil everyone else's fun.

It's like a high school dropout telling a peer with a Ph.d it's unfair that they got that Ph.d, even though they earned it.

Some of the people here who hate tech skill probably go so far as to hate on the idea of DI, which thus basically makes a video series, not a video game series.

First case example of straw man argument right here.

 

[LancerStaff]

What that people don't like mechanics that are more complex and require 3 buttons=???

Boohoo, you gotta press down-left/right, A, and L or R at roughly the same time to wavedash. So hard.

If you can't do something that complex, whether it's shield grabbing and throwing immediately (A+L or R+up/left/down/right), various misc techs, etc. then you just aren't any good.

You shouldn't be rewarded for being not good at something just because you refuse to get better at something.

If you don't want to get better, fine, but that doesn't mean you have to spoil everyone else's fun.

It's like a high school dropout telling a peer with a Ph.d it's unfair that they got that Ph.d, even though they earned it.

Some of the people here who hate tech skill probably go so far as to hate on the idea of DI, which thus basically makes a video series, not a video game series.

What's the point of arbitrary mechanics that require complicated button presses? Smash was designed to get away from Streetfighter's combos and the like.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Wavedashing is easier than a Shoryuken.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wavedashing is easier than a Shoryuken.

So one of the simpler moves from one game is easier to do then one of the more complex ones in another? Absolutely shocking.

 

[D-idara]

Wavedashing is easier than a Shoryuken.

That doesn't mean much, since the Shoryuken motion's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[pitthekit]

Go play chess- has simple imputs and is mostly strategy.

 

[JOE!]

>Shoryuken
>Complex

what