The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[pitthekit]

This thread sucks

That is what yo mama said.

 

[Deleted member]

That is what yo mama said.

*booing and hissing*

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This thread sucks

indeed

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

if you think melee takes "TECH SKILL"(lol go to training mode for literally 5 minutes to learn to L cancel properly) then you're fat and most likely ugly.

It's true. The same guy also told me that anyone with the forum name fabulouspants will never get layed.

You old pigeon-toed dirty koala lookin' mutha****a'!

 

[D-idara]

And this is where I step in.
You know, a long time ago, I used to browse video game forums and post all the childish things I felt like posting. I was a loudmouth, an ignorant little cuss with no self-awareness or any idea on how to compose my speech(or text, as was the case). I could go on and on, but unfortunately for me, my fellow forum users were probably mid 30-40 year old man-children acting like they were "witty" and "intelligent" teenagers. As such, they saw a young kid like me, and instead of considering the possibility that I was just a child, they bombarded me with troll accusations. Even worse was the fact that they were probably trolls themselves, looking to get emotional reactions out of someone that could only be a child, which they did. It was cruel of them, and I was pretty bitter about the whole experience. It can be impossible to tell(especially on the internet) whether or not someone's words or actions come from a sincere thought or feeling, or whether it's just a clever ruse. But at the risk of being made a fool of by some random person over the internet, I'm going to give D-idara the benefit of the doubt here, as I feel that the only troll bait that they are going to rouse by posting fake personal problems over the internet are the people with troll solutions(kind of like Yahoo Answers), and I have seen none so far, although I did get a laugh out of this:

I'm not a little kid :/ And my inability to lose isn't a fake problem.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I'm not a little kid :/ And my inability to lose isn't a fake problem.

the truth. not

 

[Road Death Wheel]

the truth. not

I think the fact your both replying to each other proves both of your inability to lose.

 

[Jaedrik]

I think the fact your both replying to each other proves both of your inability to lose.

The greatest victory and the most difficult obstacle is overcoming the self, truly.

 

[mimgrim]

What the ****.

Seriously. WHAT THE ****ITY ****.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The greatest victory and the most difficult obstacle is overcoming the self, truly.

Lol this thread ain't providing useful info just waiting for it to be locked Xd.

 

[Jaedrik]

Hardly. I think this is a telling thread of the nature of many types of people of both sides, a valuable resource as it were. Perhaps someone should conduct a case study?
Besides, we're mostly civilized, right? Ha, not really.
But that's barely a reason to lock the thread, we all calm down in the end, and reasonable conclusions have mostly been reached. There've been some great huge posts here. (I actually 'defeated' SmashChu!)

I think the central question has been answered, though. There are tons of different reasons that people disagree with tech skill, but it doesn't make them any more valid.
The general character of objections against 'tech skill' is an emotional appeal to 'helping' those who are without tech skill, or silly appeals to what 'ought' to be, which I think are ridiculous because they try to impose some grand morality of right and wrong to be on this incredibly trivial subject that is inherently morally neutral.

 

[J1NG]

I'm not a little kid :/ And my inability to lose isn't a fake problem.

You misunderstand me. My post was describing how it is unlikely that you are a troll.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Hardly. I think this is a telling thread of the nature of many types of people of both sides, a valuable resource as it were. Perhaps someone should conduct a case study?
Besides, we're mostly civilized, right? Ha, not really.
But that's barely a reason to lock the thread, we all calm down in the end, and reasonable conclusions have mostly been reached. There've been some great huge posts here. (I actually 'defeated' SmashChu!)

I think the central question has been answered, though. There are tons of different reasons that people disagree with tech skill, but it doesn't make them any more valid.
The general character of objections against 'tech skill' is an emotional appeal to 'helping' those who are without tech skill, or silly appeals to what 'ought' to be, which I think are ridiculous because they try to impose some grand morality of right and wrong to be on this incredibly trivial subject that is inherently morally neutral.

....:o

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

I have no issues with tech skills as long its intuitive and/or easily makes sense. So my litmus test for tech skills are these three steps:

1. give someone (preferrably a casual) a controller and let them experiment. If they figure out their movement options then the skill automatically passes. Else go to 2.
2. Show them how to do a skill. If they look confused or ask something along the lines of ".....what" or "**** that" or "that's dumb" then the skill is stupid and fails. Else go to 3.
3. Show/tell them when and how often a skill should be used. If they give you a ****that look or say something along the lines of "**** that" or "that's dumb" the skill fails. Else the skill passes.

Why do I use these three steps? Because as fighting game players we're so used to accepting and dealing with BS that we've forgotten how to recognize it. Yes, we learned to wavedash and l cancel and dacus, but that doesnt mean it's intuitive or makes sense to everyone. We learned it because it was useful, not because it made sense. Casuals, and those who dont focus purely on how useful something is, are much more sensitive when it comes to intuitive inputs and uses.

Take L-canceling. It's useful, but should ALWAYS be done. It's unnecessarily repetitive. I mean how would people react it every move in guilty gear had to be roman canceled? What if every move in SF needed to be fadc'd to be safe? Those things would seem stupid whoudnt they....? The only reason they worked is because there were very specific conditions and limits for those techniques. The conditions for needing to do an l-cancel was "you did something in the air." If L-canceling had more specific limits and conditions like being move specific or actually had a down side (l-canceling wrong is an execution error not a downside) I'd be down with it, but as is....nah. Heck, making it automated is better that it's current state, though not better than the previous suggestion.

Does this apply to any game? Becquerel tech skill for pretty much the best competitive games ever has been incredibly wonky unintuitive etc etc.. prime examples being, Dota 1/2 half the game makes no sense what so ever (orbs, neutral lagging, what BKB does an doesn't effect etc etc) ,Sc2 the game at first look would drive most people away, yet it is time and time again the best rts , Quake bunny hopping and rocket jumping are awkward as hell and take at least a dozen hours to get down halfway. And Halo 2 which had one of the most obnoxious controller techs ever created (double shots). All of those are games that would flunk your test, yet they're by far the most competitive games to last 8+ years. (CS is really the only other game that comes to mind but and it has obnoxious amounts of tech in it.)

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

No, that would be the casual community (or casual side of competitive players) who enjoy technical skill.

Games having a higher tech ceiling has about as much to do with a competitive game as the game's combo videos.

Every genre, every developer, and every game designed for competitive play has gone towards reducing the technical skill required of games. From Star Craft 2 to Dota 2, games with robust and growing scenes have been making their games easier without moving any of the decision making process that was involved. Even top players make comments about how games shouldn't be about relentless practice of a single technique but of reactions, decision making, and game logic.

You do realize both those games have incredibly high tech skill right? Micro is a tech skill and while not every Dota hero uses it it's still there on a lot. For example the team I play with usually rune Naga siren mid our rushes radiant etc, the APM on our Naga is usually well into the 140's and probably close to double that in a team fight. SC2 is even crazier I'd say in smash you input more buttons, but in Dota and Sc2 you're controlling multiple units all over the map.

 

[Deleted member]

You do realize both those games have incredibly high tech skill right? Micro is a tech skill and while not every Dota hero uses it it's still there on a lot. For example the team I play with usually rune Naga siren mid our rushes radiant etc, the APM on our Naga is usually well into the 140's and probably close to double that in a team fight. SC2 is even crazier I'd say in smash you input more buttons, but in Dota and Sc2 you're controlling multiple units all over the map.

Basically what this guy said. I can't speak for SC2 but Dota is in no way easy on the technical skill (especially when it comes to micromanagement, I got a couple friends who play Meepo regularly and it looks like absolute hell). True, a lot of what it boils down to is game sense, decision making, reaction, and generally outplaying your opponent, but there's so many small and big technical nuances it's hard to know where to start.

Technical skills have always been a big part of competitive gaming, always will be, and that includes Smash.

 

[Dravidian]

Does this apply to any game? Becquerel tech skill for pretty much the best competitive games ever has been incredibly wonky unintuitive etc etc.. prime examples being, Dota 1/2 half the game makes no sense what so ever (orbs, neutral lagging, what BKB does an doesn't effect etc etc) ,Sc2 the game at first look would drive most people away, yet it is time and time again the best rts , Quake bunny hopping and rocket jumping are awkward as hell and take at least a dozen hours to get down halfway. And Halo 2 which had one of the most obnoxious controller techs ever created (double shots). All of those are games that would flunk your test, yet they're by far the most competitive games to last 8+ years. (CS is really the only other game that comes to mind but and it has obnoxious amounts of tech in it.)

It does, but only because I'm arguing good input/control design. It has nothing to do with how competitive or fun a game or event is (like melee). Take three legged races for example: doing it is cumbersome, but that doesnt stop it from being fun(especially for kids). The main difference is that it's designed to be cumbersome, unlike melee.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

If people think smash is technical, I pray to god you don't pick up an instrument.

 

[Empyrean]

Basically what this guy said. I can't speak for SC2 but Dota is in no way easy on the technical skill (especially when it comes to micromanagement, I got a couple friends who play Meepo regularly and it looks like absolute hell). True, a lot of what it boils down to is game sense, decision making, reaction, and generally outplaying your opponent, but there's so many small and big technical nuances it's hard to know where to start.

Technical skills have always been a big part of competitive gaming, always will be, and that includes Smash.

Meepo? Damn, your friends are willing to take some huge risks. Though I'm still waiting for the day when we see a decent Visage player on the face of this earth.

And yes, besides what people might think, Smash 4 will have its fair share of techs, at the very least more than Brawl.

 

[Dravidian]

If people think smash is technical, I pray to god you don't pick up an instrument.

Smash is technical but not in the same way. I play both violin and piano (I'm no professional but I'm decent) and aside from dextrous fingers, the skills required are very different. That being said melee feels more tedious than technical (execution wise).

 

[Deleted member]

Meepo? Damn, your friends are willing to take some huge risks. Though I'm still waiting for the day when we see a decent Visage player on the face of this earth.

And yes, besides what people might think, Smash 4 will have its fair share of techs, at the very least more than Brawl.

I saw a lot of Visage during TI3 (but it's practically a given that they were good since they were pro players) but I feel ya. It hurts to see people feeding their birds to the enemy carry.

Right, let's get back on topic now.

 

[NFTsmasher]

Note: I haven't read the entire thread (since this was started back in Jan.), but let me give my viewpoint.

Anyways, I do believe that techniques like wavedashing and L-canceling are fine. They really are relatively simple techniques compared to other fighters that require input of specific button combinations each with precise timing. Yeah, it may be annoying at first that you have to press another button as you're about to hit the ground in order to get the most out of your character (i.e. reduce lag -> increase mobility/comboing), but compare that to having to memorize strings and strings of combos for every kind of scenario. In Smash, it's simple and still raises the skill ceiling (the winner is the one who makes less mistakes, some of these mistakes being attributed to failing these kinds of techniques) in a manner conducive to the simplicity that Smash is known for. There is one button (well, 2 really, L and R) that you can press at different times to increase the potential of your character (press L/R to wavedash here, press L/R to cancel lag there). Yeah, the cases where pressing that button may not be clear at first, but start playing any other fighter for the first time. Are you going to start experimenting until you figure out every single special combo or ultimate technique for every single character? No. You're going to turn to your friend and ask them, or you will consult a guide. Moreover, special move combos differ between characters in other fighters. Yes, some are similar, but many are different. In Smash, you can still use the same techniques for every character, so it still keeps the game simple.

You can argue that the Smash Team was not clear enough about promoting or explaining some of these techniques to the general audience (and therefore should have left them out of the game entirely), and while this is true, they could have just added an "Advanced Techniques" tutorial in Melee or something similar showing the basic ones (wavedash, L-cancel, directional influence) and added more visual feedback like how Project M has your character flash white when you successfully L-cancel, especially if they knew that they existed during development, but it was just an issue of them personally not wanting to embrace these techniques as core aspects of the game. In reality, people will get competitive over any game that involves skill, so it was really more of a mistake to sort of hide these aspects of the game or otherwise just "leave them in the game to be found by the curious". The result is that only the truly dedicated learned and were aware of this over time, while the more casual wouldn't have a clue they existed in the first place and wouldn't even attempt to figure them out. This is where an extra in-game tutorial would have been tremendously helpful to at least point out their existence to the more casual player base. Instead, people are likely to feel misled when first hearing about these "crazy" techniques and dub them non-necessary.

tl;dr Wave-dashing and L-canceling are okay because fundamentally they are simple techniques to learn. If these techniques were embraced from the beginning as core elements of the game (starting in Melee as new techniques), people would not consider them non-necessary. Instead, people are likely to feel misled that mechanics were left in the game that only the truly dedicated would ever hope to discover.

Thoughts?

 

[Empyrean]

Note: I haven't read the entire thread (since this was started back in Jan.), but let me give my viewpoint.

Anyways, I do believe that techniques like wavedashing and L-canceling are fine. They really are relatively simple techniques compared to other fighters that require input of specific button combinations each with precise timing. Yeah, it may be annoying at first that you have to press another button as you're about to hit the ground in order to get the most out of your character (i.e. reduce lag -> increase mobility/comboing), but compare that to having to memorize strings and strings of combos for every kind of scenario. In Smash, it's simple and still raises the skill ceiling (the winner is the one who makes less mistakes, some of these mistakes being attributed to failing these kinds of techniques) in a manner conducive to the simplicity that Smash is known for. There is one button (well, 2 really, L and R) that you can press at different times to increase the potential of your character (press L/R to wavedash here, press L/R to cancel lag there). Yeah, the cases where pressing that button may not be clear at first, but start playing any other fighter for the first time. Are you going to start experimenting until you figure out every single special combo or ultimate technique for every single character? No. You're going to turn to your friend and ask them, or you will consult a guide. Moreover, special move combos differ between characters in other fighters. Yes, some are similar, but many are different. In Smash, you can still use the same techniques for every character, so it still keeps the game simple.

You can argue that the Smash Team was not clear enough about promoting or explaining some of these techniques to the general audience (and therefore should have left them out of the game entirely), and while this is true, they could have just added an "Advanced Techniques" tutorial in Melee or something similar showing the basic ones (wavedash, L-cancel, directional influence) and added more visual feedback like how Project M has your character flash white when you successfully L-cancel, especially if they knew that they existed during development, but it was just an issue of them personally not wanting to embrace these techniques as core aspects of the game. In reality, people will get competitive over any game that involves skill, so it was really more of a mistake to sort of hide these aspects of the game or otherwise just "leave them in the game to be found by the curious". The result is that only the truly dedicated learned and were aware of this over time, while the more casual wouldn't have a clue they existed in the first place and wouldn't even attempt to figure them out. This is where an extra in-game tutorial would have been tremendously helpful to at least point out their existence to the more casual player base. Instead, people are likely to feel misled when first hearing about these "crazy" techniques and dub them non-necessary.

tl;dr Wave-dashing and L-canceling are okay because fundamentally they are simple techniques to learn. If these techniques were embraced from the beginning as core elements of the game (starting in Melee as new techniques), people would not consider them non-necessary. Instead, people are likely to feel misled that mechanics were left in the game that only the truly dedicated would ever hope to discover.

Thoughts?

Agreed. A variety of tutorials focusing on different techs/levels of skill would really be helpful. Since most techniques in Smash, bar rolling and sidestep, are practically never referred to ingame or by the developers, people will have a hard time finding them on their own. Even crouch-cancelling is vaguely referred to in the Brawl manual. They also could code the AI to perform stuff like these (kind of like how the CPUs in Brawl airdodge as soon as they detect that hitstun can be cancelled) so that people who face them get curious and try to learn them too (Project M is trying to do this to a certain extent).

 

[NFTsmasher]

Agreed. A variety of tutorials focusing on different techs/levels of skill would really be helpful. Since most techniques in Smash, bar rolling and sidestep, are practically never referred to ingame or by the developers, people will have a hard time finding them on their own. Even crouch-cancelling is vaguely referred to in the Brawl manual. They also could code the AI to perform stuff like these (kind of like how the CPUs in Brawl airdodge as soon as they detect that hitstun can be cancelled) so that people who face them get curious and try to learn them too (Project M is trying to do this to a certain extent).

Yeah, I really like your point of tutorial/promoting curiosity through AI design. Unfortunately, Melee AI sucked. Going back and playing it, I realize how much the CPUs really do just "jab 'n grab", especially Fox. It's really kind of silly.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

if you think melee takes "TECH SKILL"(lol go to training mode for literally 5 minutes to learn to L cancel properly) then you're fat and most likely ugly.

You old I watch Monster Trucks on Saturday red-neck ass n**ga.

Yeah I had one more.

 

[mimgrim]

(Project M is trying to do this to a certain extent).

Warlock/Falcon Punch on Level 9 CPU. Never fails.

 

[JediLink]

But that's barely a reason to lock the thread, we all calm down in the end, and reasonable conclusions have mostly been reached. There've been some great huge posts here. (I actually 'defeated' SmashChu!)

Oh, do tell. If he's come to his senses, I can un-ignore him. Also you're a hero for arguing with that guy.

 

[Jaedrik]

Oh, do tell. If he's come to his senses, I can un-ignore him. Also you're a hero for arguing with that guy.

I wouldn't call it a 'win' (because I don't think I've convinced him of anything or even swayed his mind in the slightest), but he just didn't respond after this post. Interpret that as you will. All it takes is a little bit of perseverance Embarrass
How to be contrarian 101: don't even accept their premise, just outright deny that first, and attack their underlying assumptions. They'll usually get mad or pass you off as an idiot
If not, you'd better start preparing concessions and backtracking and pass your real idiocy off as a joke. At least, that's what I do if I know the other person is right. Hehe.

 

[ReptarAZ]

I feel like games today have tedious, unimaginative and unrewarding controlrls/control schemes. Case in point, every fps on the market, many action "rpg"'s, and even blatantly worse is some combination of the tw, like Mass Effect (ugh) or Dead Rising. I very often forget I have a controller in my hand and the only feedback I get is onscreen, which kind of cheapens the experience. Smash on the other hand, feels ****ing great when I play because I get physical and onscreen feedback/gratification. When I can precisely wavedash towards the left platform, seeI feel like games today have tedious, unimaginative and unrewarding controlrls/control schemes. Case in point, every fps on the market, many action "rpg"'s, and even blatantly worse is some combination of the tw, like Mass Effect (ugh) or Dead Rising. I very often forget I have a controller in my hand and the only feedback I get is onscreen, which kind of cheapens the experience. Smash on the other hand, feels ****ing great when I play because I get physical and onscreen feedback/gratification. When I can precisely wavedash towards the left platform, see the opponent roll on the left platform towards the middle, and DACUS to the right to catch him out of the tech it feels like Iam actually competent/skilled and smart. It feels right you know? Also wavedashing itself makes a lot of sense, because it is essentially pushing your character forward, in a faster way the opponent roll on the left platform towards the middle, and DACUS to the right to catch him out of the tech it feels like Iam actually competent/skilled and smart. It feels right you know? Also wavedashing itself makes a lot of sense, because it is essentially pushing your character forward, in a faster way. It isn't totally counter intuitive, except maybe wavedashing backwards but in the frame work of directional airdodges it makes sense that I can move forward by. airdodging forward.

 

[Joe73191]

I am pretty terrible compared to great smash players, but would I be better than the best melee players if melee didn't have wavedashing, l-canceling, or the hit stun that it had? No of course not. It's similar with the tier list. I mean there will always be more viable characters than others. However the skill of the player far out weighs the character differences. Sure there are some cases where certain characters are above or below the rest to such a degree that it makes a difference, those cases should be minimal and should be prevented when possible, but for the most part it makes no difference. On top of that, but there is nothing wrong with match-ups being uneven to a certain extent. Having characters similar to a rock-paper-scissor scenario is not a bad thing.

I just want to add a few things to the l-cancel debate. 1. the only reason not to l-cancel on purpose is if u want to bait your opponent into trying to punish you for not doing it. 2. While I like the idea of auto-l-canceling my problem with is that when you use an air attack too low to the ground the characters body hits the ground in a way which visually shows that they hit the ground wrong and need to get back up. This is similar to a snowboarder, skier, or skateboarder landing wrong off a jump. Sure you might land without falling on your face but if its not a clean landing it still hurts the performance of your run. It is the same with l-canceling in smash. If you land wrong it is tougher to recover and the opponent can capitalize and punish it. If you land with an l-cancel you have landed correctly and your jump-arial-land was clean and successful, thus harder to punish.

To me when I hear people complaining about l-canceling, wavedashing, or melee being too fast I just hear: "It's the game's fault that I lost." I'm sorry, that might not be what you intend to do when you criticize those aspects of melee, but that's just how it looks to me. I'm someone who wants to be the best. I wanna be one of the top ranked players in the world, but I acknowledge that right now I'm terrible. I don't want to be the best in a version of smash that is easier for less skilled players, which is why I don't play brawl anymore. I don't want to be the best by removing certain skills that others use, I want to be the best by learning and master those skills too. To me removing l-canceling or wavedashing is insulting because it says: "those guys are good because they use those things, but if we take those things away they wont be as good and then I can win." I don't want to win that way. I want to win because my skill improved to match theirs, not because techniques they used were removed and they couldn't play to their full potential.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I am pretty terrible compared to great smash players, but would I be better than the best melee players if melee didn't have wavedashing, l-canceling, or the hit stun that it had? No of course not. It's similar with the tier list. I mean there will always be more viable characters than others. However the skill of the player far out weighs the character differences. Sure there are some cases where certain characters are above or below the rest to such a degree that it makes a difference, those cases should be minimal and should be prevented when possible, but for the most part it makes no difference. On top of that, but there is nothing wrong with match-ups being uneven to a certain extent. Having characters similar to a rock-paper-scissor scenario is not a bad thing.

I just want to add a few things to the l-cancel debate. 1. the only reason not to l-cancel on purpose is if u want to bait your opponent into trying to punish you for not doing it. 2. While I like the idea of auto-l-canceling my problem with is that when you use an air attack too low to the ground the characters body hits the ground in a way which visually shows that they hit the ground wrong and need to get back up. This is similar to a snowboarder, skier, or skateboarder landing wrong off a jump. Sure you might land without falling on your face but if its not a clean landing it still hurts the performance of your run. It is the same with l-canceling in smash. If you land wrong it is tougher to recover and the opponent can capitalize and punish it. If you land with an l-cancel you have landed correctly and your jump-arial-land was clean and successful, thus harder to punish.

To me when I hear people complaining about l-canceling, wavedashing, or melee being too fast I just hear: "It's the game's fault that I lost." I'm sorry, that might not be what you intend to do when you criticize those aspects of melee, but that's just how it looks to me. I'm someone who wants to be the best. I wanna be one of the top ranked players in the world, but I acknowledge that right now I'm terrible. I don't want to be the best in a version of smash that is easier for less skilled players, which is why I don't play brawl anymore. I don't want to be the best by removing certain skills that others use, I want to be the best by learning and master those skills too. To me removing l-canceling or wavedashing is insulting because it says: "those guys are good because they use those things, but if we take those things away they wont be as good and then I can win." I don't want to win that way. I want to win because my skill improved to match theirs, not because techniques they used were removed and they couldn't play to their full potential.

Just wanted to say thank you providing such an insightful post, especially the analogy with L-canceling. I have tried to explain why having an auto cancel as a substitute looks so unusual (like in smash 64 with Link's Dair).

Again, thanks for backing up an otherwise dead thread.

 

[D-idara]

I am pretty terrible compared to great smash players, but would I be better than the best melee players if melee didn't have wavedashing, l-canceling, or the hit stun that it had? No of course not. It's similar with the tier list. I mean there will always be more viable characters than others. However the skill of the player far out weighs the character differences. Sure there are some cases where certain characters are above or below the rest to such a degree that it makes a difference, those cases should be minimal and should be prevented when possible, but for the most part it makes no difference. On top of that, but there is nothing wrong with match-ups being uneven to a certain extent. Having characters similar to a rock-paper-scissor scenario is not a bad thing.

I just want to add a few things to the l-cancel debate. 1. the only reason not to l-cancel on purpose is if u want to bait your opponent into trying to punish you for not doing it. 2. While I like the idea of auto-l-canceling my problem with is that when you use an air attack too low to the ground the characters body hits the ground in a way which visually shows that they hit the ground wrong and need to get back up. This is similar to a snowboarder, skier, or skateboarder landing wrong off a jump. Sure you might land without falling on your face but if its not a clean landing it still hurts the performance of your run. It is the same with l-canceling in smash. If you land wrong it is tougher to recover and the opponent can capitalize and punish it. If you land with an l-cancel you have landed correctly and your jump-arial-land was clean and successful, thus harder to punish.

To me when I hear people complaining about l-canceling, wavedashing, or melee being too fast I just hear: "It's the game's fault that I lost." I'm sorry, that might not be what you intend to do when you criticize those aspects of melee, but that's just how it looks to me. I'm someone who wants to be the best. I wanna be one of the top ranked players in the world, but I acknowledge that right now I'm terrible. I don't want to be the best in a version of smash that is easier for less skilled players, which is why I don't play brawl anymore. I don't want to be the best by removing certain skills that others use, I want to be the best by learning and master those skills too. To me removing l-canceling or wavedashing is insulting because it says: "those guys are good because they use those things, but if we take those things away they wont be as good and then I can win." I don't want to win that way. I want to win because my skill improved to match theirs, not because techniques they used were removed and they couldn't play to their full potential.

This will probably be the one and only pro-competitive thing I'll ever say...but those people aren't amazing because they can wavedash and L-Cancel...wavedash works as a mobility option which makes perfect sense (Even though the command needs to be much simpler for it to really work) and L-Cancel's just outright-dumb. Seriously, L-Cancel's nothing more than a silly input barrier that some people somehow support even though it adds literally NOTHING to the game's depth.

 

[NFTsmasher]

This will probably be the one and only pro-competitive thing I'll ever say...but those people aren't amazing because they can wavedash and L-Cancel...wavedash works as a mobility option which makes perfect sense (Even though the command needs to be much simpler for it to really work) and L-Cancel's just outright-dumb. Seriously, L-Cancel's nothing more than a silly input barrier that some people somehow support even though it adds literally NOTHING to the game's depth.

MINDGAMES. If you are constantly L-canceling, you can play with your opponent by not L-canceling here and there. Like it was said above, this can bait your opponent or otherwise cause him to make a miscalculation.

 

[Rohins]

Here are some things in melee you wouldn't have to worry about or worry about less if you didn't have l cancel:

• Hitting multiple objects with an aerial
• Whiffing an aerial due to a dodge or roll
• Whether you are hit with a light attack right before your aerial comes out
• Hitting an object sooner / later than you expected
• Landing on an edge at the finish of your aerial
• Whether your aerial auto cancels before landing

Strategically, you want to lower your lag so "you want to l cancel whenever possible" is correct. The depth added to the game is the extra attention to detail. You learn better timing, better spacing, and are required to know more about the game to properly utilize its benefits.

These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more if I thought about it.

Edit: Sorry, lost part of my post from an error

D-idara - Why does wavedash need to be simpler to really work? Wavedash is well used by plenty of players, not just the top echelon. What would these players be able to do if the input was easier?

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Sometimes, people just dislike it because they can't perform it. I'm not trying to belittle people who can't perform tech skill, or don't want to learn it. That's perfectly fine, however I myself know a few people who only dislike the fact that I can wavedash, l cancel, etc, because I somehow have an unfair advantage. If you want to level the playing field, learn them. I shouldn't have to hinder my playstyle because you don't want to, or can't learn them.

 

[smashmachine]

Sometimes, people just dislike it because they can't perform it. I'm not trying to belittle people who can't perform tech skill, or don't want to learn it. That's perfectly fine, however I myself know a few people who only dislike the fact that I can wavedash, l cancel, etc, because I somehow have an unfair advantage. If you want to level the playing field, learn them. I shouldn't have to hinder my playstyle because you don't want to, or can't learn them.

Not only this, but these people would still lose badly even with these "unfair advantages" being taken out, and then they would just complain about something else that's "cheap".

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Not only this, but these people would still lose badly even with these "unfair advantages" being taken out, and then they would just complain about something else that's "cheap".

Agreed, such as me using a better character. It's sad really.

 

[JediLink]

MINDGAMES. If you are constantly L-canceling, you can play with your opponent by not L-canceling here and there. Like it was said above, this can bait your opponent or otherwise cause him to make a miscalculation.

This does not make any sense.

It's like if you said "Instead of shielding, I'll just let my opponent hit me a couple of times! MINDGAMES!"

 

[Vkrm]

This does not make any sense.

It's like if you said "Instead of shielding, I'll just let my opponent hit me a couple of times! MINDGAMES!"

I could see this being a thing if used with crouch cancelling.

 

[Dimir]

I used to be in the boat that thought tech skill was all just arbitrary and detracted from the game. I liked Brawl more than Melee. I felt Melee was too hard. Then I opened my eyes.

It feels good to learn to Wavedash and L-cancel. What once seemed like mindless button pressing, now feels like a rewarding challenge of my dexterity. Playing Melee at top level is damn hard, but it's rewarding to be able to execute complex button inputs while being able to out-play your opponent. I will agree that L-Cancel is unnecessary, but wavedashing is fun, not always the obvious decision, and has a lot of room for expanding upon as an intended mechanic. I like having the ability to use hand speed and dexterity to squeeze more value and control out of my character.

I think the bottom line is that implementing tech skill does not detract from the game for casual players. A player is not required to learn to wave-dash or L-cancel to play melee and still have fun.

Even if Nintendo tries to create the next Smash devoid of intended technical skill, competitive/hardcore players will almost always find some way to have an edge in a game that casual players will not. It's the nature of competition and innovation.