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The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

D-idara

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I see, I do understand your reasoning. And while I agree that skills should preferably not be overly complicated, I do think that having a hard-to-input tech is better than none at all. However, I believe that your method of evaluating techs works best for intermediate players. As they tend to usually have some knowledge, and clearly they strive to get better, they will be more prone to understanding the listed attributes of mechanics, and their opinion of what input makes sense, etc. has the most weight compared to the other classes, whereas a casual with no prior experience with fighters will have a hard time with any technique, unless of course he decides to get better and learn.

A casual should not be able to jump in and, in just a few hours of play, know about/have seen/understand all the techs present in the game. There are certain things he needs to get better at at first (in Smash, for example, rolling, shielding, recovering) before learning the tougher, more rewarding skills (such as shorthopping, teching, DI), and by this point, he won't be a casual anymore, he will have become a dedicated player with motivation to get better. Keep in mind that this is only my opinion of how Smash (or any fighter) should be, and that, whether intentionally or not, previous entries have more or less followed a similar approach to skill progression.
:/ Skill progression should come from just playing the game, no checking online and going to Practice Mode. Because there's a difference between knowing about/having seen/understood all the mechanics and using them well, that's what you fighting game players don't understand, why even have input barriers? Do you love your little elite so much that people need to suffer to start playing? Shorthopping's one of the most painfully frustrating things to do ever. Even worse than Wavedash, at least wavedash is a glorified glitch.
 
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Monkley6

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Messages
356
:/ Skill progression should come from just playing the game, no checking online and going to Practice Mode. Because there's a difference between knowing about/having seen/understood all the mechanics and using them well, that's what you fighting game players don't understand, why even have input barriers? Do you love your little elite so much that people need to suffer to start playing? Shorthopping's one of the most painfully frustrating things to do ever. Even worse than Wavedash, at least wavedash is a glorified glitch.
I think there's a break somewhere between "competitive" and "casual" players. What it looks like to me, is that the competitive crowd wants to have difficult, or at least not terribly easy, techniques to learn, which will also enhance the strategic aspect of the game through movement and speed usually. The casual crowd (or at least D-idara) seems to want an easy to learn and jump-right-in experience.
While neither of these is wrong, I think what the competitive players are asking, more simply, is to be challenged. They want a long and hard battle to fight to constantly learn new techniques and improve on old ones, etc..
While we're probably a long way from what the OP was stating, I think the question should be "Why does having technical barriers hurt casual players?"

At least that's what I'm thinking. Sorry if that's not really a complete thought... My brain seemed to stall out on me.
 

mimgrim

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Lol this thread is still going.

They disagree because they are casual. (no shame in that) dat's it.
Not really.

If they are complaining about techs then that means they know about them and usually means they went out of their way to find out stuff about the game. Casuals won't know about most of the stuff themselves unless they find out about through a freak accident and even then they won't complain about more then likely, and definitely wouldn't go onto a website about the game.

Not competitive =/= casual. More often then not, the people who disagree with tech skill fall under the gamer or hardcore gamer category but from a competitive stand point they would fall under "whiner".
 

D-idara

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I think there's a break somewhere between "competitive" and "casual" players. What it looks like to me, is that the competitive crowd wants to have difficult, or at least not terribly easy, techniques to learn, which will also enhance the strategic aspect of the game through movement and speed usually. The casual crowd (or at least D-idara) seems to want an easy to learn and jump-right-in experience.
While neither of these is wrong, I think what the competitive players are asking, more simply, is to be challenged. They want a long and hard battle to fight to constantly learn new techniques and improve on old ones, etc..
While we're probably a long way from what the OP was stating, I think the question should be "Why does having technical barriers hurt casual players?"

At least that's what I'm thinking. Sorry if that's not really a complete thought... My brain seemed to stall out on me.
Input barriers don't hurt casual players...but that's the thing, please stop calling me a 'casual' because I'm NOT a casual gamer by any means. That's the problem with competitive players...why can't the challenge be strategical? The game would be made better if things like wavedashing were still there, but were much easier to perform so you don't have to practice them over and over to get them right, I got Project M a few days ago and I've been practicing wavedashing for two days, and I still can't get it right more than five times in a row. Why would I continue practicing wavedash if the point of the game is to have fun? If I'm not having fun, I'll just move on to other games or other game modes that ARE fun.

The casual crowd doesn't really care, but the hardcore gamers who love Smash and do want to get into the competitive scene want the advanced techniques to be streamlined, simplified or else removed. Input barriers are pretty much that, barriers, not slopes or stairs, there's no way to ease yourself into the techniques, you've got to claw your way up the while and struggle and suffer, and nobody likes that except for the ones that already did it and want other people to go through the same painful, annoying training.
 
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Monkley6

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Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
356
Input barriers don't hurt casual players...but that's the thing, please stop calling me a 'casual' because I'm NOT a casual gamer by any means. etc..
Sorry, I didn't really mean to put it that way. I understand what you mean, about not wanting to spend all that time fighting an uphill battle with techs. I was in the boat with you for a long time, about not wanting to spend that much time practicing something. I've just recently decided I'm going to practice them, because if others can learn it then so can I, damnit! :p
I don't disagree that inputs could be easier though.The way I see it is that there's nothing I can do to change it, so either I put the time into it to learn, or don't and find something else I enjoy more. No sense in beating my head against the wall wishing it would be different.

Once again, I'm feeling really scatter-brained, so this is probably really messily laid out.
 

D-idara

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Sorry, I didn't really mean to put it that way. I understand what you mean, about not wanting to spend all that time fighting an uphill battle with techs. I was in the boat with you for a long time, about not wanting to spend that much time practicing something. I've just recently decided I'm going to practice them, because if others can learn it then so can I, damnit! :p
I don't disagree that inputs could be easier though.The way I see it is that there's nothing I can do to change it, so either I put the time into it to learn, or don't and find something else I enjoy more. No sense in beating my head against the wall wishing it would be different.

Once again, I'm feeling really scatter-brained, so this is probably really messily laid out.
The thing's that I don't want to suffer through learning wavedash to just start with playing the game competitively and/or getting better. The tools are the core game mechanics...and putting up with BS has been the reason that fighting games tend to use 'tech skill' as an excuse to not evolve and become accessible to all kinds of people. Yes, I'd love to get into the competitive Smash scene, but first I want it to be gradual, or easy if possible. I tried prcticing wavedash but I just can't push the stick upwards and then push it diagonally quick enough for the wavedash to work, if wavedash was an intuitive input, finger-twitching wouldn't be required, I'm not willing to hurt myself and leave my fingers in pain just to not use the perfectly-fine dash the game already has...

Maybe Sakurai could make it like most fighting games, make the wavedash be a slight tap towards a direction with the stick, while the normal dash would be holding that input...I mean, he did implement that slight variation with Kid Icarus Uprising on a 3D plane, that'd take care of the problems of wavedashing, I appreciate the movement options it grants, it's just too ridiculous of an input to be intuitive and easy to learn and apply. Tilting already requires that milisecond perfection to land tilts into a combo, so it's not like the average Smash player doesn't know how to do it.

What I'm trying to say is that because some guys decided to suffer through practicing advanced techs and they're muscle memory to them by now, that doesn't mean everyone who wants to get into competitive play should go through the same amount of BS for next, evolved, better, more accesible installments of the franchise.
 
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Jaedrik

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I must say that the division between 'playing the game' and 'training' is absolutely arbitrary.
 

CRASHiC

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I think there's a break somewhere between "competitive" and "casual" players. What it looks like to me, is that the competitive crowd wants to have difficult, or at least not terribly easy, techniques to learn, which will also enhance the strategic aspect of the game through movement and speed usually.
No, that would be the casual community (or casual side of competitive players) who enjoy technical skill.

Games having a higher tech ceiling has about as much to do with a competitive game as the game's combo videos.

Every genre, every developer, and every game designed for competitive play has gone towards reducing the technical skill required of games. From Star Craft 2 to Dota 2, games with robust and growing scenes have been making their games easier without moving any of the decision making process that was involved. Even top players make comments about how games shouldn't be about relentless practice of a single technique but of reactions, decision making, and game logic.
 
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The thing's that I don't want to suffer through learning wavedash to just start with playing the game competitively and/or getting better. The tools are the core game mechanics...and putting up with BS has been the reason that fighting games tend to use 'tech skill' as an excuse to not evolve and become accessible to all kinds of people. Yes, I'd love to get into the competitive Smash scene, but first I want it to be gradual, or easy if possible. I tried prcticing wavedash but I just can't push the stick upwards and then push it diagonally quick enough for the wavedash to work, if wavedash was an intuitive input, finger-twitching wouldn't be required, I'm not willing to hurt myself and leave my fingers in pain just to not use the perfectly-fine dash the game already has...

Maybe Sakurai could make it like most fighting games, make the wavedash be a slight tap towards a direction with the stick, while the normal dash would be holding that input...I mean, he did implement that slight variation with Kid Icarus Uprising on a 3D plane, that'd take care of the problems of wavedashing, I appreciate the movement options it grants, it's just too ridiculous of an input to be intuitive and easy to learn and apply. Tilting already requires that milisecond perfection to land tilts into a combo, so it's not like the average Smash player doesn't know how to do it.

What I'm trying to say is that because some guys decided to suffer through practicing advanced techs and they're muscle memory to them by now, that doesn't mean everyone who wants to get into competitive play should go through the same amount of BS for next, evolved, better, more accesible installments of the franchise.
I can understand how you feel about competitive play, but reading through your post , you sound like you're playing the blame game more than anything

I could have understood how your perspective on playing the game and getting better until you said that you didn't understand how to short hop, which is possibly one of the most simple things to do in smash bros., and was even illustrated on the smash bros dojo during Brawl's pre release:

http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/howto/technique/technique10.html

Not only that, short hopping has been in almost every platformer to exist, including the games you hold to such extraordinary prestige, the Super Mario series. Being able to short hop in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine and even Super Mario Galaxy require you to input it the same way; you lightly tap the button. I'm not trying to question your integrity as a gamer, but surely anyone who calls themselves a hard core gamer can manage to press and release a button quickly enough to do a shorter jump, I have been able to do so since I was about 6 years old, but I was a gamer since the beginning of the 90's and played games from the 80's so games didn't perpetually hold the players hand, but I digress. What kind of games do you play exactly?

You are taking all of the wrong steps when it comes to learning. You said you don't want to have to deal with wavedashing, but you can't even properly execute a short hop (Which I find hard to believe personally), so you really shouldn't even be worrying about how to execute a wavedash in general. That's like trying to learn how to drive an 18-Wheeler truck before learning how to drive a car, it's completely backwards and detrimental to the learning process. The thing is, I bet you can short hop, you probably just can't do it in battle because your temperament mid play goes out the window when you're being hit, and players take advantage of that state of panic when a players tactics are perpetually exposed and don't know when to do. I played a Kirby player the other night who would literally just use all of his jumps and down B from the sky, like I wouldn't see it coming from a mile away. I blocked it every time and punished him for it. When he realized it wasn't working he lost composure and suddenly forgot how to play the game and even killed himself a few times. Not necessarily saying this is your issue, but playing fighting games against another player it is crucial that you control your tempo mid play and adapt to a situation, which is something that you aren't familiar with since you play Mario games, where you don't have to worry about adapting to something new since the stage won't change and if you make a mistake you always have an extra life to attempt to do the same thing.

Contrary to your belief, fighting games have evolved and have kept evolving, and they have been every since the introduction of Street FIghter. thanks to street fighter we now have a games like Guilty Gear that share the same input methods but plays on a completely different level. From the same creators of Street Fighter we have Marvel vs Capcom (The vs series) that borrow the same inputs but has a completely different way of playing. From there we have other games that borrow similar inputs but use them in a completely different engine. We have games like Mortal Kombat that borrow a lot from street fighter, but have established their own play style and lead to the creation of games such as Injustice: Gods among us. We also have other games in the fighting game genre like Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi, a unique 3D fighter that doesn't use the same inputs but still has deep underlying mechanics, similar games being Gundam Extreme Vs. and the upcoming J-Stars VS. There are even simpler input based 3D brawlers like Power Stone for people who still want to play a friendly fighting game that still has some deep mechanics (Throw teching, dodging, ukemi etc.). We also have games like Virtua Fighter and Tekken who have there own established methods of inputs and playing but still borrow some inputs methods from street fighter and the like. If fighting games were not evolving then why does such a large variety exist? Why constantly make these games if they aren't going any where when they clearly are? If fighting games didn't evolve then why do we even have Super Smash Bros.?

Fighting games are very accessible, if not one of the most accessible forms of entertainment for game players. If I can buy the game, put it in my consol and play it in any way I see fit, it is accessible. Among them and first person shooters you see them in a lot of TV shows and cheesy sitcoms as you see players haphazardly mash buttons at each other, even though they interpret that as one of the players completely dominating the other player despite the fact that its an illusive fantasy. As a fighting game player I can't believe you did a combo into a super by frantically punishing a singe button, but it is interpreted that way because it's the societal norm. Many players who casually play games tend to play fighting games by mashing buttons rapidly against one another, and these players are completely fine with it. Games like Street Fighter are the common culprit to this and the players are fine with it.

Now say we introduce a more seasoned player who knows how to apply what he knows in the group of inexperienced players. You will get two kinds of responses: Either along the lines of "Wow man, you're good" or "Wow, you're such a cheater", the ladder being the player who lacks humility and believes that this way of playing at the entry level should have granted him victory despite the fact that there will always be a better player at his level or someone who was more willing to put in the necessary time to get better at the activity, I know this from experience from playing at my local arcade. Which draws me to the conclusion based on your responses; you want to be the player on the TV. You want to be the person who can pick up the game at anytime and be the better player by simply mashing the button and win (This is evident since you admitted to being unable to implement even the simplest of tactics into your gameplay). You feel like you should be able to do those combos and best a player by simply "playing the game" (Which as posters have previously stated is arbitrary, since playing in practice mode is playing the game). You believe that tech skill is your downfall, but it isn't, it is many things:

1. You believe that obtaining tech skill is some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy that will allow you to best a player when that's far from true. The players that succeed are not succeeding on the merit that they are consistently technical, but also because they have experience and play smarter.

2. Your temperament mid game play prevents you from doing the most simple things. Your analytical mind becomes absent once you lose control of the match and you don't attempt to mix up your approaches.

3. You don't have the proper mindset when playing. Mindgames, spacing, reading the opponents moves, assessing players options based on their positioning are far more important than knowing how to wavedash.

4. You are learning the technical game from the wrong perspective. Even if you know how to wavedash there are still a wide plethora of things you need to understand before you can compete. When and when you shouldn't use crouch canceling against an approaching player, what direction should you tech when being thrown, perfect shielding a projectile approach or a predicted move, how to DI a certain attack, preparing to ledge tech an attack when your recovery misses the sweet spot of the ledge. All of these things are far more fundamental to learn, and will yield greater success in your game play than learning how to wavedash in general. Not saying you should abandon learning the wavedash, but there are more things you must know before you assume that one technique is the absolute end-to-all-means of learning.

Honestly, no one really needs to learn tech skill, but people still do it. Why? Because it gives players a competitive edge. There is always going to be a player or group of players who are going to try to learn something that another player doesn't know to give them an edge, big or small, it doesn't matter as long it can throw the opponent off guard. So at this point every other player is going to try to learn something and eventually all this information becomes common knowledge, and given the era we live in these things can be accessed at almost any time on the internet, so even the high level competitive play is accessible, unlike in the 90's when knowledge had to be passed from word to mouth, making it much more difficult to compete.

One thing I could say is that games sometimes are bad at teaching players how to play without making i arbitrary, but some game actually still do a great job at doing it. BlazBlue is actually pretty great at teaching entry level players how to play competitively and introduces players to things like cancels, grab techs and 50/50 mix ups. There are also great examples like Smash Bros. 64 and Melee with break the targets, which thought you how to use a players list of moves to effectively use a characters moves and recovery to hit the targets in a method that was just a game, which in my opinion was extremely brilliant. However, there are limits to this kind of learning, as you had to understand how to play against something akin to the unpredictability of a cornered beast: the human player. This is something that takes a while to learn and brings about such things as adaption and predictability, things that playing through classic mode cant teach a player.

In the end you have to draw the line at when there are things a player should already to know and when you should expand upon them. No one is forcing you to learn anything, and believing that you shouldn't have to put your best foot forward despite the fact that every other player is willing to is not a healthy method of learning, and is the perpetual issue with gaming today. Sure its going to be hard, but anything in life worth obtaining will, and always be as such.
 
Last edited:

D-idara

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I can understand how you feel about competitive play, but reading through your post , you sound like you're playing the blame game more than anything

I could have understood how your perspective on playing the game and getting better until you said that you didn't understand how to short hop, which is possibly one of the most simple things to do in smash bros., and was even illustrated on the smash bros dojo during Brawl's pre release:

http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/howto/technique/technique10.html

Not only that, short hopping has been in almost every platformer to exist, including the games you hold to such extraordinary prestige, the Super Mario series. Being able to short hop in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine and even Super Mario Galaxy require you to input it the same way; you lightly tap the button. I'm not trying to question your integrity as a gamer, but surely anyone who calls themselves a hard core gamer can manage to press and release a button quickly enough to do a shorter jump, I have been able to do so since I was about 6 years old, but I was a gamer since the beginning of the 90's and played games from the 80's so games didn't perpetually hold the players hand, but I digress. What kind of games do you play exactly?

You are taking all of the wrong steps when it comes to learning. You said you don't want to have to deal with wavedashing, but you can't even properly execute a short hop (Which I find hard to believe personally), so you really shouldn't even be worrying about how to execute a wavedash in general. That's like trying to learn how to drive an 18-Wheeler truck before learning how to drive a car, it's completely backwards and detrimental to the learning process. The thing is, I bet you can short hop, you probably just can't do it in battle because your temperament mid play goes out the window when you're being hit, and players take advantage of that state of panic when a players tactics are perpetually exposed and don't know when to do. I played a Kirby player the other night who would literally just use all of his jumps and down B from the sky, like I wouldn't see it coming from a mile away. I blocked it every time and punished him for it. When he realized it wasn't working he lost composure and suddenly forgot how to play the game and even killed himself a few times. Not necessarily saying this is your issue, but playing fighting games against another player it is crucial that you control your tempo mid play and adapt to a situation, which is something that you aren't familiar with since you play Mario games, where you don't have to worry about adapting to something new since the stage won't change and if you make a mistake you always have an extra life to attempt to do the same thing.

Contrary to your belief, fighting games have evolved and have kept evolving, and they have been every since the introduction of Street FIghter. thanks to street fighter we now have a games like Guilty Gear that share the same input methods but plays on a completely different level. From the same creators of Street Fighter we have Marvel vs Capcom (The vs series) that borrow the same inputs but has a completely different way of playing. From there we have other games that borrow similar inputs but use them in a completely different engine. We have games like Mortal Kombat that borrow a lot from street fighter, but have established their own play style and lead to the creation of games such as Injustice: Gods among us. We also have other games in the fighting game genre like Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi, a unique 3D fighter that doesn't use the same inputs but still has deep underlying mechanics, similar games being Gundam Extreme Vs. and the upcoming J-Stars VS. There are even simpler input based 3D brawlers like Power Stone for people who still want to play a friendly fighting game that still has some deep mechanics (Throw teching, dodging, ukemi etc.). We also have games like Virtua Fighter and Tekken who have there own established methods of inputs and playing but still borrow some inputs methods from street fighter and the like. If fighting games were not evolving then why does such a large variety exist? Why constantly make these games if they aren't going any where when they clearly are?

Fighting games are very accessible, if not one of the most accessible forms of entertainment for game players. If I can buy the game, put it in my consol and play it in any way I see fit, it is accessible. Among them and first person shooters you see them in a lot of TV shows and cheesy sitcoms as you see players haphazardly mash buttons at each other, even though they interpret that as one of the players completely dominating the other player despite the fact that its an illusive fantasy. As a fighting game player I can't believe you did a combo into a super by frantically punishing a singe button, but it is interpreted that way because it's the societal norm. Many players who casually play games tend to play fighting games by mashing buttons rapidly against one another, and these players are completely fine with it. Games like Street Fighter are the common culprit to this and the players are fine with it.

Now say we introduce a more seasoned player who knows how to apply what he knows in the group of inexperienced players. You will get two kinds of responses: Either along the lines of "Wow man, you're good" or "Wow, you're such a cheater", the ladder being the player who lacks humility and believes that this way of playing at the entry level should have granted him victory despite the fact that there will always be a better player at his level or someone who was more willing to put in the necessary time to get better at the activity, I know this from experience from playing at my local arcade. Which draws me to the conclusion based on your responses; you want to be the player on the TV. You want to be the person who can pick up the game at anytime and be the better player by simply mashing the button and win (This is evident since you admitted to being unable to implement even the simplest of tactics into your gameplay). You feel like you should be able to do those combos and best a player by simply "playing the game" (Which as posters have previously stated is arbitrary, since playing in practice mode is playing the game). You believe that tech skill is your downfall, but it isn't, it is many things:

1. You believe that obtaining tech skill is some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy that will allow you to best a player when that's far from true. The players that succeed are not succeeding on the merit that they are consistently technical, but also because they have experience and play smarter.

2. Your temperament mid game play prevents you from doing the most simple things. Your analytical mind becomes absent once you lose control of the match and you don't attempt to mix up your approaches.

3. You don't have the proper mindset when playing. Mindgames, spacing, reading the opponents moves, assessing players options based on their positioning are far more important than knowing how to wavedash.

4. You are learning the technical game from the wrong perspective. Even if you know how to wavedash there are still a wide plethora of things you need to understand before you can compete. When and when you shouldn't use crouch canceling against an approaching player, what direction should you tech when being thrown, perfect shielding a projectile approach or a predicted move, how to DI a certain attack, preparing to ledge tech an attack when your recover misses the sweet spot of the ledge. All of these things are far more fundamental to learn, and will yield greater success in your game play than learning how to wavedash in general. Not saying you should abandon learning the wavedash, but there are more things you must know before you assume that one technique is the absolute end-to-all-means of learning.

Honestly, no one really needs to learn tech skill, but people still do it? Why? Because it gives players a competitive edge. There is always going to be a player or group of players who are going to try to learn something that another player doesn't know to give them an edge, big or small, it doesn't matter as long it can throw the opponent off guard. So at this point every other player is going to try to learn something and eventually all this information becomes common knowledge, and given the era we live in these things can be accessed at almost any time on the internet, so even the high level competitive play is accessible, unlike in the 90's when knowledge had to be passed from word to mouth, making it much more difficult to compete.

One thing I could say is that games sometimes are bad at teaching players how to play without making i arbitrary, but some game actually still do a great job at doing it. BlazBlue is actually pretty great at teching entry level players how to play competitively and introduces players to things like cancels, grab techs and 50/50 mix ups. There are also great examples like Smash Bros. 64 and Melee with break the targets, which thought you how to use a players list of moves to effectively use a characters moves and recovery to hit the targets in a method that was just a game, which in my opinion was extremely brilliant. However, there are limits to this kind of learning, as you had to understand how to play against something akin to the unpredictability of a cornered beast: the human player. This is something that takes a while to learn and brings about such things as adaption and predictability, things that playing through classic mode cant teach a player.

In the end you have to draw the line at when there are things a player should already to know and when you should expand upon them. No one is forcing you to learn anything, and believing that you shouldn't have to put your best foot forward despite the fact that every other player is willing to is not a healthy method of learning, and is the perpetual issue with gaming today. Sure its going to be hard, but anything in life worth obtaining will, and always be as such.
You see, I can short hop with almost every game, short hopping's actually a main part of completing many of Super Mario 3D World's harder levels, but on that game you shorthop through a button press, while on Smash you use tap jump, which is harder to do, and no, I'm not going to reassign the controller's buttons just to be able to shorthop and wavedash because I'm used to tap jump, and as I made very clear already, I'm not willing to go through any hardship, struggle or challenge to adapt.

And yes, I lose my cool midfight because I hate any way of losing with a passion and I can't stand it.
 
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guedes the brawler

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:/ Skill progression should come from just playing the game, no checking online and going to Practice Mode. Because there's a difference between knowing about/having seen/understood all the mechanics and using them well, that's what you fighting game players don't understand, why even have input barriers? Do you love your little elite so much that people need to suffer to start playing? Shorthopping's one of the most painfully frustrating things to do ever. Even worse than Wavedash, at least wavedash is a glorified glitch.
Wrong.

Getting better as you progress is good for progressive games: Platformers being a prime example. They give you basic things, and slowly push you to learn new things or using them in new ways. The environment is ALWAYS changing, and the player's own abilities are very limited. There is only so much that you can do at those games outside of game-changing gimmicks being introduced for a level or two...

Fighting games, as well as Sport games and Racing games aren't progressive, because they are competitive games. The game doesn't evolve: the settings are always the same. I am not saying one does not improve over time, but seeing as it's a PvP kind of game, there needs to be some kind of drive. The setting of these games are the exact inverse of Platformers: The Players has a multitude of actions and strategies available to them, and there is little else to affect them (even Spear Pillar, the most chaotic stage in the series, is less variable than a mid-game level of a Mario game)



These input barriers bring depth (outside of L-canceling... but it does have nice consequences, so i dunno). And technical skill mean nothing if you don't understand the basic skills, and this is something that comes with the GENRE.




You say people suffer when they start playing? what kind of world do you live? These things are perfectly passable in a casual level. Nobody forces you to use them. You only play Harder difficulties if you wish to. You only face pros, if you also wish too. You don't need to play competitively.

This genre just isn't for you if you can't handle something as simple as Short Hopping, i wonder how troublesome for you the concept of Jump+attack is. I would recommend platformers... but wait, maybe that's impossible for you. Stick to point-and-click and JRPGs. That MIGHT not be that hard.

I just don't understand what EXACTLY is your beef with these things. Smash is predominately a casual game: less than 5% of the players are competitive players. Nobody is ruining anything for you.
 

guedes the brawler

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You see, I can short hop with almost every game, short hopping's actually a main part of completing many of Super Mario 3D World's harder levels, but on that game you shorthop through a button press, while on Smash you use tap jump, which is harder to do, and no, I'm not going to reassign the controller's buttons just to be able to shorthop and wavedash because I'm used to tap jump, and as I made very clear already, I'm not willing to go through any hardship, struggle or challenge to adapt.

And yes, I lose my cool midfight because I hate any way of losing with a passion and I can't stand it.
What is wrong with you.

First of all, there is a jump button on every control configuration. Sure, i can use my feet to play basketball, but it's cumbersome, so i use my hands. It's the same deal here.

You are not willing to go through things to get better, and that's awesome, it just proves my point that this genre isn't for you. How can you expect to get good when you don't try? That's contradictory.

And your post pretty much confirms you are a little kid,, or at least a very sheltered, maybe even ignorant, person. Going through Hardships, Struggles and Challenges is how life itself works. honestly, when you said Brawl was what got you into VGs i suspected as much, but i gave you the benefit of doubt.
 
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You see, I can short hop with almost every game, short hopping's actually a main part of completing many of Super Mario 3D World's harder levels, but on that game you shorthop through a button press, while on Smash you use tap jump, which is harder to do, and no, I'm not going to reassign the controller's buttons just to be able to shorthop and wavedash because I'm used to tap jump, and as I made very clear already, I'm not willing to go through any hardship, struggle or challenge to adapt.

And yes, I lose my cool midfight because I hate any way of losing with a passion and I can't stand it.
Well maybe thats the problem, you need to deal with. Everyone loses, you just need to interpret that as a phase of learning. When I first started practicing my tech skill I lost a lot, more so than when I wasn't practicing them, but after some time I got better because I stuck to it and learned. If you have a problem with jumping then why not use X or Y to jump? You don't tap jump in Mario, so try bringing that over to smash. No one is forcing you to change, but sometimes change is good. Who knows, you may like playing with using jump for X and Y better. You'll never know until you try.

As for your losing problem, that's something you're going to have to deal with on your own. You can't win everything all of the time.
 

JediLink

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I tried prcticing wavedash but I just can't push the stick upwards and then push it diagonally quick enough for the wavedash to work, if wavedash was an intuitive input, finger-twitching wouldn't be required, I'm not willing to hurt myself and leave my fingers in pain just to not use the perfectly-fine dash the game already has...
Okay, stuff makes sense now. I was wondering why you were struggling so much with wavedashing when it's really not that hard. It's because you're pressing up to jump. Yeah, don't do that. You're just making it 99x harder for yourself. What controller are you using? It better not be wiimote + nunchuk (or worse, just wiimote).

But anyway, do you even think about what you're saying before you say it? You're saying that you want to get into competitive Smash, but you don't want to learn about the game, practice, or go through any kind struggle at all. That of course begs the question:

Which part of competitive Smash do you want to do?
 
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Empyrean

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:/ Skill progression should come from just playing the game, no checking online and going to Practice Mode. Because there's a difference between knowing about/having seen/understood all the mechanics and using them well, that's what you fighting game players don't understand, why even have input barriers? Do you love your little elite so much that people need to suffer to start playing? Shorthopping's one of the most painfully frustrating things to do ever. Even worse than Wavedash, at least wavedash is a glorified glitch.
May I remind you that the so-called "elitist" players weren't born to this world with all their tech skill ready. It's not some sort of genetically transmitted talent. They started as simple players like you and me and literally everyone else, but their hard work and dedication helped them rise through the ranks over time. Anyone can become a pro at this game with enough effort, and no, I prefer the game be more difficult and challenging to get better at than them making it easier.

Do you honestly expect to master wavedashing in a matter of two days? Also, I would highly recommend you get shorthopping down before you even start thinking about learning other techniques. Shorthopping is the most important tech to know in all Smash games to date, and Smash 4 is guaranteed to have it too. Also, using X/Y to jump is infinitely better and is more commonly found than tap-jumping in practically every game where jumping is a thing.
 

D-idara

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I can understand how you feel about competitive play, but reading through your post , you sound like you're playing the blame game more than anything

I could have understood how your perspective on playing the game and getting better until you said that you didn't understand how to short hop, which is possibly one of the most simple things to do in smash bros., and was even illustrated on the smash bros dojo during Brawl's pre release:

http://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/howto/technique/technique10.html

Not only that, short hopping has been in almost every platformer to exist, including the games you hold to such extraordinary prestige, the Super Mario series. Being able to short hop in Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine and even Super Mario Galaxy require you to input it the same way; you lightly tap the button. I'm not trying to question your integrity as a gamer, but surely anyone who calls themselves a hard core gamer can manage to press and release a button quickly enough to do a shorter jump, I have been able to do so since I was about 6 years old, but I was a gamer since the beginning of the 90's and played games from the 80's so games didn't perpetually hold the players hand, but I digress. What kind of games do you play exactly?

You are taking all of the wrong steps when it comes to learning. You said you don't want to have to deal with wavedashing, but you can't even properly execute a short hop (Which I find hard to believe personally), so you really shouldn't even be worrying about how to execute a wavedash in general. That's like trying to learn how to drive an 18-Wheeler truck before learning how to drive a car, it's completely backwards and detrimental to the learning process. The thing is, I bet you can short hop, you probably just can't do it in battle because your temperament mid play goes out the window when you're being hit, and players take advantage of that state of panic when a players tactics are perpetually exposed and don't know when to do. I played a Kirby player the other night who would literally just use all of his jumps and down B from the sky, like I wouldn't see it coming from a mile away. I blocked it every time and punished him for it. When he realized it wasn't working he lost composure and suddenly forgot how to play the game and even killed himself a few times. Not necessarily saying this is your issue, but playing fighting games against another player it is crucial that you control your tempo mid play and adapt to a situation, which is something that you aren't familiar with since you play Mario games, where you don't have to worry about adapting to something new since the stage won't change and if you make a mistake you always have an extra life to attempt to do the same thing.

Contrary to your belief, fighting games have evolved and have kept evolving, and they have been every since the introduction of Street FIghter. thanks to street fighter we now have a games like Guilty Gear that share the same input methods but plays on a completely different level. From the same creators of Street Fighter we have Marvel vs Capcom (The vs series) that borrow the same inputs but has a completely different way of playing. From there we have other games that borrow similar inputs but use them in a completely different engine. We have games like Mortal Kombat that borrow a lot from street fighter, but have established their own play style and lead to the creation of games such as Injustice: Gods among us. We also have other games in the fighting game genre like Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi, a unique 3D fighter that doesn't use the same inputs but still has deep underlying mechanics, similar games being Gundam Extreme Vs. and the upcoming J-Stars VS. There are even simpler input based 3D brawlers like Power Stone for people who still want to play a friendly fighting game that still has some deep mechanics (Throw teching, dodging, ukemi etc.). We also have games like Virtua Fighter and Tekken who have there own established methods of inputs and playing but still borrow some inputs methods from street fighter and the like. If fighting games were not evolving then why does such a large variety exist? Why constantly make these games if they aren't going any where when they clearly are?

Fighting games are very accessible, if not one of the most accessible forms of entertainment for game players. If I can buy the game, put it in my consol and play it in any way I see fit, it is accessible. Among them and first person shooters you see them in a lot of TV shows and cheesy sitcoms as you see players haphazardly mash buttons at each other, even though they interpret that as one of the players completely dominating the other player despite the fact that its an illusive fantasy. As a fighting game player I can't believe you did a combo into a super by frantically punishing a singe button, but it is interpreted that way because it's the societal norm. Many players who casually play games tend to play fighting games by mashing buttons rapidly against one another, and these players are completely fine with it. Games like Street Fighter are the common culprit to this and the players are fine with it.

Now say we introduce a more seasoned player who knows how to apply what he knows in the group of inexperienced players. You will get two kinds of responses: Either along the lines of "Wow man, you're good" or "Wow, you're such a cheater", the ladder being the player who lacks humility and believes that this way of playing at the entry level should have granted him victory despite the fact that there will always be a better player at his level or someone who was more willing to put in the necessary time to get better at the activity, I know this from experience from playing at my local arcade. Which draws me to the conclusion based on your responses; you want to be the player on the TV. You want to be the person who can pick up the game at anytime and be the better player by simply mashing the button and win (This is evident since you admitted to being unable to implement even the simplest of tactics into your gameplay). You feel like you should be able to do those combos and best a player by simply "playing the game" (Which as posters have previously stated is arbitrary, since playing in practice mode is playing the game). You believe that tech skill is your downfall, but it isn't, it is many things:

1. You believe that obtaining tech skill is some kind of self-fulfilling prophecy that will allow you to best a player when that's far from true. The players that succeed are not succeeding on the merit that they are consistently technical, but also because they have experience and play smarter.

2. Your temperament mid game play prevents you from doing the most simple things. Your analytical mind becomes absent once you lose control of the match and you don't attempt to mix up your approaches.

3. You don't have the proper mindset when playing. Mindgames, spacing, reading the opponents moves, assessing players options based on their positioning are far more important than knowing how to wavedash.

4. You are learning the technical game from the wrong perspective. Even if you know how to wavedash there are still a wide plethora of things you need to understand before you can compete. When and when you shouldn't use crouch canceling against an approaching player, what direction should you tech when being thrown, perfect shielding a projectile approach or a predicted move, how to DI a certain attack, preparing to ledge tech an attack when your recover misses the sweet spot of the ledge. All of these things are far more fundamental to learn, and will yield greater success in your game play than learning how to wavedash in general. Not saying you should abandon learning the wavedash, but there are more things you must know before you assume that one technique is the absolute end-to-all-means of learning.

Honestly, no one really needs to learn tech skill, but people still do it? Why? Because it gives players a competitive edge. There is always going to be a player or group of players who are going to try to learn something that another player doesn't know to give them an edge, big or small, it doesn't matter as long it can throw the opponent off guard. So at this point every other player is going to try to learn something and eventually all this information becomes common knowledge, and given the era we live in these things can be accessed at almost any time on the internet, so even the high level competitive play is accessible, unlike in the 90's when knowledge had to be passed from word to mouth, making it much more difficult to compete.

One thing I could say is that games sometimes are bad at teaching players how to play without making i arbitrary, but some game actually still do a great job at doing it. BlazBlue is actually pretty great at teching entry level players how to play competitively and introduces players to things like cancels, grab techs and 50/50 mix ups. There are also great examples like Smash Bros. 64 and Melee with break the targets, which thought you how to use a players list of moves to effectively use a characters moves and recovery to hit the targets in a method that was just a game, which in my opinion was extremely brilliant. However, there are limits to this kind of learning, as you had to understand how to play against something akin to the unpredictability of a cornered beast: the human player. This is something that takes a while to learn and brings about such things as adaption and predictability, things that playing through classic mode cant teach a player.

In the end you have to draw the line at when there are things a player should already to know and when you should expand upon them. No one is forcing you to learn anything, and believing that you shouldn't have to put your best foot forward despite the fact that every other player is willing to is not a healthy method of learning, and is the perpetual issue with gaming today. Sure its going to be hard, but anything in life worth obtaining will, and always be as such.
You see, I can short hop with almost every game, short hopping's actually a main part of completing many of Super Mario 3D World's harder levels, but on that game you shorthop through a button press, while on Smash you use tap jump, which is harder to do, and no, I'm not going to reassign the controller's buttons just to be able to shorthop and wavedash because I'm used to tap jump, and as I made very clear already, I'm not willing to go through any hardship, struggle or challenge to adapt.
 

D-idara

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I'm not a little kid or sheltered, I just have to have a great deal of interest to actually go through hardships. And I'm interested in competitive play, just not THAT interested.

Also, I played 64, Melee and Brawl with tap-jump, do you expect me to change now? And what's wrong with Brawl getting me into gaming as a whole? Yes, I was a gamer before, but Brawl made me interested in more franchises and in VGM music, because the main part of that game was the content.

Stop being condescending and treating me like I'm inferior >:( The only reason I find shorthop difficult is because of tap jump. Also, are there people who actually want the game to be harder? Why?
 

Cap'nChreest

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I'm not a little kid or sheltered, I just have to have a great deal of interest to actually go through hardships. And I'm interested in competitive play, just not THAT interested.

Also, I played 64, Melee and Brawl with tap-jump, do you expect me to change now? And what's wrong with Brawl getting me into gaming as a whole? Yes, I was a gamer before, but Brawl made me interested in more franchises and in VGM music, because the main part of that game was the content.

Stop being condescending and treating me like I'm inferior >:( The only reason I find shorthop difficult is because of tap jump. Also, are there people who actually want the game to be harder? Why?
If I were you I'd try to stop using tap jump. Even though you're used to it its better to change it. For example I've played smash for 15 years and I've always used the A button to do arial attacks but just recently I started using the c-stick to do arial attacks. It really helped me improve my game! The point is don't be afraid of change. Especially if you hate to lose. I'd encourage you to be open to new ideas in learning techniques for smash and gaming in general. The transition may be difficult at first but eventually you will get used to it and benefit all the more! :) Like the old saying goes "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" (literally) Also in brawl I always play basic brawl online. There are tons of taunt parties and I'd get tired of losing 3v1 all the time. So I learned some brawl tech to help me beat all of the trolls. I know these are different situations but tech skill helps. :)
 
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Empyrean

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Also, I played 64, Melee and Brawl with tap-jump, do you expect me to change now?
Yes, keeping this habit is detrimental to your progress, no matter how old it is. Use X or Y on the GCC, or C on the Wiichuck, you don't need change the configuration.

Also, you won't learn much by winning all the time. It is necessary to experience and accept losing so that you can understand what you need to improve or what you shouldn't have done. No one here is treating you like you're inferior, you are the one convincing yourself that you are incapable of learning/changing.

On a completely unrelated note, did that double post just have a 2 and a half hour delay??
 

Stryker

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I'm not a little kid or sheltered, I just have to have a great deal of interest to actually go through hardships.
... as I made very clear already, I'm not willing to go through any hardship, struggle or challenge to adapt.
I love this thread.
Story of this thread is that two of the most professional trolls I have ever witnessed going to town on the poor smash community. Too gud.
 

D-idara

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I love this thread.
Story of this thread is that two of the most professional trolls I have ever witnessed going to town on the poor smash community. Too gud.
:/ So funny...but seriously, I haven't ever considered using buttons to jump, it just feels so weird and I'd have to get used to it, I'd also have to cut time from my other games to dedicate time to learn all 9001 advanced techniques Project M has. Of course shorthopping's a breeze when you jump using a button, but first I have to get used to jumping with a button and attacking in the air with the same finger I use to jump, then maybe start practicing wavedash for like a year before I can finally implement it into my playstyle, then I need to learn like 15 other ridiculous techs to even be at tech level with the pros, and there's the mindgames and the fact that I lose my cool as soon as I lose a single stock.

And it's perfectly fine for someone to pretty much forget how to play once they're faced with a hard-to-adapt situation. Change comes with hardships and adapting, and I prefer the comfort of my comfort zone. Also, the default jump IS tap-jump.
 
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Stryker

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:/ So funny...but seriously, I haven't ever considered using buttons to jump, it just feels so weird and I'd have to get used to it, I'd also have to cut time from my other games to dedicate time to learn all 9001 advanced techniques Project M has.
If you feel like you have to force yourself to play project M, or have to cut time from other games and force yourself to play project M, it sounds like you should just play what you want to play.I just happen to want to learn to wavedash and play project m
 

D-idara

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If you feel like you have to force yourself to play project M, or have to cut time from other games and force yourself to play project M, it sounds like you should just play what you want to play.I just happen to want to learn to wavedash and play project m
I'd just love to get into competitive if it didn't involve practicing tech skills. I mean, I've got a bunch of other games that grant you satisfaction from the moment you grab the controller (One of the reasons I never bothered to finish Pikmin 3, was just too hard and you had to repeat a level to do it well).
 
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fabulouspants

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if u want a game that doesnt require tech skill to compete go play a moba. fighting games require tech skill in general(smash less than the avg). you can still play well without advanced(lol) techniques. proper spacing and reading ur opponents trumps everything else. you'll just have to get more reads than your opponent if youre not willing to learn the basics
 
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...and no, I'm not going to reassign the controller's buttons just to be able to shorthop and wavedash because I'm used to tap jump, and as I made very clear already, I'm not willing to go through any hardship, struggle or challenge to adapt.
I find it strange that you are unwilling to adapt to a new button configuration yourself, yet in most threads you clamor that Melee players should move on from using GameCube controllers and that we are whiners. I figured that with all of your adamant belittlement of players unwilling to change that you would practice what you had preached.

I would hope now that you could see the error of your reasoning, or at least understand how blatantly hypocritical you are being.
 

Jaedrik

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You see, I can short hop with almost every game, short hopping's actually a main part of completing many of Super Mario 3D World's harder levels, but on that game you shorthop through a button press, while on Smash you use tap jump, which is harder to do, and no, I'm not going to reassign the controller's buttons just to be able to shorthop and wavedash because I'm used to tap jump, and as I made very clear already, I'm not willing to go through any hardship, struggle or challenge to adapt.

And yes, I lose my cool midfight because I hate any way of losing with a passion and I can't stand it.
And the point he made is intensified. Your character makes it more and more despicable the suggestion that Sakurai, or anyone in the games industry for that matter, should cater to your imperious attitude. Look, I'm all for great learning curves, but arrogance like this is unfounded. D-idara, you acknowledge your state of being, but what I want you to see here. . . is that you are the problem. Your attitude and perspective is an unhealthy problem. It's not the game designers, it's you, you are the part of the relationship that is dysfunctional. It's much like when a man and a woman are in an exclusive relationship, and the woman starts acting like the world revolves around her, her ego gets to her, and she makes things everyone else's problems that they need to fix (this example was taken in the societal context of a trope that has played out in many relationships in stories and in the real). This is called pride. Please recognize that and get over yourself. I don't mean this in a mean way, I really don't, but I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I want you to recognize that it's the problem, not anything else.
 
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Stryker

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I keep seeing that people think that you never learn wave dashing or AT's in the game itself.SCUSE ME!? You realize someone had to be the first one to learn it and put it onto the internet right? The internet didn't just magically come up with wave dashing, and every melee player from the get go had to go online to learn it and practice.

It was just developed at a much slower pace, just like a lot of AT's in fighting games.
The competitive players would have learned everything they could from just playing the game, and when wave dashing hadn't been invented yet, someone had to have stumbled upon it naturally. Like in game. Not with someone telling them to do it.

The difference is, rather than everyone just continually playing until the learn it naturally, people now have resources to to out what other people have naturally learned, and practice it themselves. People are just bypassing the hours and hours of play needed to get to the level required where you know everything else, and finally start experimenting with weird stuff in game.
 

Stryker

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:/ So funny...but seriously, I haven't ever considered using buttons to jump, it just feels so weird and I'd have to get used to it, I'd also have to cut time from my other games to dedicate time to learn all 9001 advanced techniques Project M has. Of course shorthopping's a breeze when you jump using a button, but first I have to get used to jumping with a button and attacking in the air with the same finger I use to jump, then maybe start practicing wavedash for like a year before I can finally implement it into my playstyle, then I need to learn like 15 other ridiculous techs to even be at tech level with the pros, and there's the mindgames and the fact that I lose my cool as soon as I lose a single stock.

And it's perfectly fine for someone to pretty much forget how to play once they're faced with a hard-to-adapt situation. Change comes with hardships and adapting, and I prefer the comfort of my comfort zone. Also, the default jump IS tap-jump.
If you want some realistic advice (Which I really shouldn't bother giving someone who is trolling this hard, as it clearly won't be accepted or taken to heart)Seems like you are just getting overwhelmed by smash and you are wanting too much out of it too fast. And potentially in the wrong order.You just can't learn everything at once. You can't start with engineering before you can do basic mental math. And you can't do basic mental math if every time the tip of your pencil snaps, you breakdown into tears, and give up on your worksheet.

Pace yourself and work on things that will improve your game. Work on your own play, one weakness at a time, and eventually you will identify when you need to learn to wavedash. But it's probably not right now.
As has been said before, you can perfectly wavedash all the time in practice, but if losing one stock still sets you on tilt, you still aren't going to be able to do it mid fight. There is more to this game then just the game. You're emotions can hinder your play. You should work on getting those under control first before even thinking about learning new techs. If you can't play at your own 100% from the start to finish of a match, then trying to learn new things and implement it will just overwhelm you.

So, my advice, perfect the basics. Stop worrying about techs for now. They aren't the most important thing for new players to learn anyway. Learn to use tilts to set up longer combos, make sure your recovery and edge guard game are flawless with your main against your friends mains. Learn when to shield, and when to spot dodge. If you really want to incorporate AT's, practice L-cancelling and shield grabbing.
Hell, you want to have some fun with mind games? Learn to tech chase grabs with more grabs. Playing Falco in P:M, his down throw just leaves them on the ground at most percents. From here you can predict. Is your opponent going to roll away? (Most newer players just roll away from their enemies) Just dash forward and grab. And repeat. Being able to tell if your opponent is scared and predicting their actions is for sure one of the cooler parts of this game, and more fun, but you don't need AT's to do it.
These few things will put you miles ahead of any casual player, do not involve any overly complex input, and are many of the things that make this game great. You see the pro's and want to be hand held to that level of play, but nobody had their hand held to get there. Learn all of this stuff first, and then you will realize just how small of a tool wave dashing really is.
 
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New_Dumal

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Stuff like DACUS though, are just things that you can use to your advantage to improve your own skill level, and are by no means unfair. I'd feel differently if the CPU was designed to use these glitches, but this is not the case, and as such, these glitches can only ever enhance a player's experience.
I don't have any problems to perform DACUS at all, but I still don't like it that much.
There's no "almost impossible-input" in Brawl that I remember to want to do, and don't being capable of (maybe link laser to a BDACUS ? ).
But when you talk about DACUS you must remember is a "tech" of only some chars (with no pattern for define who).
Even more, some of them looks pathetic graphically, like Sheik.
It's the result of our greed to discover more and more "tech-skill" for the pride of play "like a pro", when the game could be competitive in the same way, without it.

But again, I see no problem at new mechanisms to make the game more "hardcore".I just don't like this way : Some obscure results in strange inputs and determined characters.
 

D-idara

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If you want some realistic advice (Which I really shouldn't bother giving someone who is trolling this hard, as it clearly won't be accepted or taken to heart)Seems like you are just getting overwhelmed by smash and you are wanting too much out of it too fast. And potentially in the wrong order.You just can't learn everything at once. You can't start with engineering before you can do basic mental math. And you can't do basic mental math if every time the tip of your pencil snaps, you breakdown into tears, and give up on your worksheet.

Pace yourself and work on things that will improve your game. Work on your own play, one weakness at a time, and eventually you will identify when you need to learn to wavedash. But it's probably not right now.
As has been said before, you can perfectly wavedash all the time in practice, but if losing one stock still sets you on tilt, you still aren't going to be able to do it mid fight. There is more to this game then just the game. You're emotions can hinder your play. You should work on getting those under control first before even thinking about learning new techs. If you can't play at your own 100% from the start to finish of a match, then trying to learn new things and implement it will just overwhelm you.

So, my advice, perfect the basics. Stop worrying about techs for now. They aren't the most important thing for new players to learn anyway. Learn to use tilts to set up longer combos, make sure your recovery and edge guard game are flawless with your main against your friends mains. Learn when to shield, and when to spot dodge. If you really want to incorporate AT's, practice L-cancelling and shield grabbing.
Hell, you want to have some fun with mind games? Learn to tech chase grabs with more grabs. Playing Falco in P:M, his down throw just leaves them on the ground at most percents. From here you can predict. Is your opponent going to roll away? (Most newer players just roll away from their enemies) Just dash forward and grab. And repeat. Being able to tell if your opponent is scared and predicting their actions is for sure one of the cooler parts of this game, and more fun, but you don't need AT's to do it.
These few things will put you miles ahead of any casual player, do not involve any overly complex input, and are many of the things that make this game great. You see the pro's and want to be hand held to that level of play, but nobody had their hand held to get there. Learn all of this stuff first, and then you will realize just how small of a tool wave dashing really is.
TL:DR: I can't stand losing and never will, so learning from mistakes is a no-no for me. That's why I love single player games, when I make a mistake, I know it was my fault and not the other players who cheated. I don't want to lose to someone "better"...that's why I don't want to start practicing, because no matter how much I practice, there will always be someone that mops the floor with me (Make that someone a couple thousand maybe).

Just to give you an example, I just came back from playing P:M, switched the jump to a button, started falling off ledges because I'm used to tap-jump, inmediate giving up.
 
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Stryker

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
206
Location
Eastern Canada
TL:DR: I can't stand losing and never will, so learning from mistakes is a no-no for me.
What about Mario? I can't speak for the new ones as much, but platformers are all about level memorization and precision.
If you jump yourself into a pit in mario, do you get frustrated, slam your controller, quit the game for a few days, come back, and jump down that same pit again because you don't realize that you are jumping at the wrong time?
(God I hope not.)
No, I assume you just restart the level, learn from the death that you jumped too soon, or your turned mid jump and shouldn't have, or you didn't land on the koopa properly, ad adjust your play.

But if you can't stand losing, smash really just doesn't seem like the game for you. If you are winning all the time, you aren't learning. Sure it feels good, but you can just go spam lvl 1 bots and kill them with falcon punch if you just want to win.

The problem I'm having with smash right now is that I don't have players better then me in my area that I can find. This is a problem because no one is punishing me for my mistakes, no one is forcing me to mix up my recovery game, and while I can practice these things, it's hard to identify if something I'm doing is predictable or incorrect.

For instance, I have a bad habit of always rolling behind my opponent to dodge forward smashes. Thankfully, I have a Zero Suit samus player who, although not amazing at the game, loves to spam her F Smash. This is good for me, as ZSS F Smash hits in front and behind her, and punishes me if I use that option. Thus forcing me to learn other methods of punishing my opponent instead of always relying on a predictable pattern.
You have to lose to get better at this game. If you don't you will just continue to rely on your subpar strategy because it always works, and you will never improve.
 

D-idara

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
3,240
Location
Venezuela
NNID
D-idara
3DS FC
4511-0670-4622
What about Mario? I can't speak for the new ones as much, but platformers are all about level memorization and precision.
If you jump yourself into a pit in mario, do you get frustrated, slam your controller, quit the game for a few days, come back, and jump down that same pit again because you don't realize that you are jumping at the wrong time?
(God I hope not.)
No, I assume you just restart the level, learn from the death that you jumped too soon, or your turned mid jump and shouldn't have, or you didn't land on the koopa properly, ad adjust your play.

But if you can't stand losing, smash really just doesn't seem like the game for you. If you are winning all the time, you aren't learning. Sure it feels good, but you can just go spam lvl 1 bots and kill them with falcon punch if you just want to win.

The problem I'm having with smash right now is that I don't have players better then me in my area that I can find. This is a problem because no one is punishing me for my mistakes, no one is forcing me to mix up my recovery game, and while I can practice these things, it's hard to identify if something I'm doing is predictable or incorrect.

For instance, I have a bad habit of always rolling behind my opponent to dodge forward smashes. Thankfully, I have a Zero Suit samus player who, although not amazing at the game, loves to spam her F Smash. This is good for me, as ZSS F Smash hits in front and behind her, and punishes me if I use that option. Thus forcing me to learn other methods of punishing my opponent instead of always relying on a predictable pattern.
You have to lose to get better at this game. If you don't you will just continue to rely on your subpar strategy because it always works, and you will never improve.
So what are you exactly going to do to prevent ZZS' Smash from hurting you, and hoW're you going to make that decision in split seconds? And the keyword is 'it always works'...why would I want to be challenged? I like winning, easy or hard, although preferably easy, having to work hard to achieve something makes the whole experience a bit more unpleasant, and admitting your mistakes...blech. I prefer the game being tailored around my mistakes.

Although right now I'm pretty much talking **** because I'm sick and tired of wanting to play competitive Smash, but the game being impossible to get into. If I have to work hard at all, I'll just keep playing normal, quirky Smash because I'm not willing to put up with even the most minimal challenge, although I'm willing to do it on other games, the human factor just ruins it.
 
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FlareHabanero

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 20, 2012
Messages
16,443
Location
New Jersey
It's a good idea to be challenged, because facing problems helps build character and make you grow.

You don't become a master just by feeling it, you have to face complications in order to climb up.
 

Stryker

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
206
Location
Eastern Canada
So what are you exactly going to do to prevent ZZS' Smash from hurting you, and ho're you going to make that decision in split seconds? And the keyword is 'it always works'
As for how to make the decision in split seconds, the answer is easy. I don't. When I think I'm in a position where ZSS wants to Fsmash me, as of right now, I just shield. Easy as that. After cursing and swearing and getting hit by the back end of her F smash, I already know what will happen if I choose that roll option. I'll get hit. So, well before the situation happens, I have to decide what I will do when it comes up. Then, when it does come up, I try to choose the better option. Yes, I still occasionally roll behind and get tagged by it out of instinct, but the times that I do shield, it just shoves me back and puts us neutral again. This is it's own reward because it doesn't result in me taking more damage/getting combo's.

Eventually I will have to find a way to punish it, but one of the things I love about smash is that it's up to me how I do it. Maybe spot dodge, and run up and grab, maybe shield the attack into an ariel to try to get combos going. As I main mario the distances are not in my favour, but shield into fireball sets her up for more combo options.

Just not rolling behind. As thats a mistake I need to condition myself away from.


Edit: As per "why would I want to be challenged?" Clearly you don't want to be. As I had mentioned above. Go 1v1 level 1 bots all day and be happy. No challenge. Everything always works. Never lose. That's the perfect smash for you.

Edit #2: As a secondary question, why on earth do you want actually want to play competitively? From everything you've said, it doesn't sound like you would actively enjoy any aspect of competitive play at all...
 
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JediLink

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
778
Location
QLD, Australia
TL:DR: I can't stand losing and never will, so learning from mistakes is a no-no for me. That's why I love single player games, when I make a mistake, I know it was my fault and not the other players who cheated.


The gift that keeps on giving, ladies and gentlemen.
 
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smashmachine

Smash Lord
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
1,285
TL:DR: I can't stand losing and never will, so learning from mistakes is a no-no for me. That's why I love single player games, when I make a mistake, I know it was my fault and not the other players who cheated.
oh
you're the type who complains about "spam" and "cheap tactics" huh
 

Chiroz

Tier Lists? Foolish...
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
4,648
Location
Waiting on The Hero
NNID
Zykrex
I thoroughly believe D-iadara is just a really really really dedicated troll. I am unwillingly to believe there is a single human being who not only has D-idara's personality and opinions but also recognizes them head on and understands why they are bad, but yet doesn't care at all about having them (and actually believes that others should just accommodate to him).
 
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
8,377
Location
Long Beach,California
I thoroughly believe D-iadara is just a really really really dedicated troll. I am unwillingly to believe there is a single human being who not only has D-idara's personality and opinions but also recognizes them head on and understands why they are bad, but yet doesn't care at all about having them (and actually believes that others should just accommodate to him).
Yeah I dunno about him, but he is willing to learn (?). He made a thread earlier about trying to improve and I sent him some links. Dude needs to work on his attitude though.
 
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