The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Ulevo]

The thing with most tech skills is that they weren't intended. Sure, incredibly popular ones like wavedashing are intended but that's because of how popular they were. Even if Sakurai tried to implement as few tech skills as possible players would learn how to abuse the physics engine to just invent more.

Just pointing out that this is blatantly wrong. Nearly all of the techniques used in advanced Melee play were purposely put in as natural, organic, intended mechanics by the developers. Most of them weren't even unintended exploitations of system like wavedashing was.

 

[Xcano]

Just pointing out that this is blatantly wrong. Nearly all of the techniques used in advanced Melee play were purposely put in as natural, organic, intended mechanics by the developers. Most of them weren't even unintended exploitations of system like wavedashing was.

Sorry, I'll edit that. But the point still stands, even if NO intentional techs were implemented, players would find exploits to act as the new techs.

 

[LancerStaff]

So you are a relativist and subjectivist?
Well, why didn't you say so?
As for me and mine, there is an absolute and universal value which defines 'glitch' and 'exploit', not the sequence of words, that is, but the ideas. To say that your universal of 'glitch' is somehow superior to the general use is. . . astounding, frankly, and it will, as it has, cause massive confusion and strife amongst arguing peoples. So why not align your definition with the truer definition and give up this ridiculous game of rhetoric? It proves nothing for your 'side'.

I don't think my definition is superior, it's just what I think. There isn't a truer definition. And I like being obtuse. I guess I'm a bit biased about this because I've dealt with some bad Melee fanboys in my time. (Like, boo Brawl tournaments bad.) And I'm not really trying to prove my side, just trying to get the ''Wavedashing is an exploit, and you aren't allowed to think otherwise.'' guys off my back. Those guys...care too much.

"Finally, an intelligent post."

my 2 posts still win against everything you've said. if you don't go back and address them, nothing has changed.

and it doesn't matter if it's a glitch or an exploit. it harmed the integrity of the game less than metaknight's mere existence harmed the integrity of brawl. and many like it. debating what we want to call it is just a waste of time, because it goes to sakurai's intentions which we have established beyond question are irrelevant to the heart of this debate.

Question: Am I allowed to think what I want?

Anyways, I'd like to get back to the ''Could Wavedashing ever return?'' argument that we have so obviously deviated from, if that's alright with everyone that thinks I can have my own opinion.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't think my definition is superior, it's just what I think. There isn't a truer definition. And I like being obtuse. I guess I'm a bit biased about this because I've dealt with some bad Melee fanboys in my time. (Like, boo Brawl tournaments bad.) And I'm not really trying to prove my side, just trying to get the ''Wavedashing is an exploit, and you aren't allowed to think otherwise.'' guys off my back. Those guys...care too much.



Question: Am I allowed to think what I want?

Anyways, I'd like to get back to the ''Could Wavedashing ever return?'' argument that we have so obviously deviated from, if that's alright with everyone that thinks I can have my own opinion.

Honestly? The action of sliding forward on the ground depending on momentum and friction (traction) might make a return if momentum is retained in Smash 4 (which I believe it is from videos, but can't quite prove yet).

But doing so in idle position from where you had the option to do any attack desired? Probably not. Wavedashing was so useful not because it was faster, but because it allowed so many options (tilting, smashing, specialing, jumping, shield, grabing, etc.) while moving because of the fact that you were in idle position as you slid across the floor. This idle position came from the fact that you landed performing an air dodge, which had no lag upon landing and thus allowed you to immediately enter idle stance.

Even if momentum is retained, and even if there is an action that creates a burst of momentum that allows your character to slide in a similar way to wavedashing, it is very improbable said action will not cause lag upon landing. This will mean that you will lag as you slide and its uses would be incredibly diminished if you could only slide while in a certain lag animation.

The only possibility I see of wavedashing returning exactly as it was is that Sakurai wants to specifically include wavedashing as a technique, and if he does he will probably map it to an actual action/button and acknowledge it as an action your character can take. (I.E.: Shielding, Attacking, Grabbing, Walking, Dashing, Wavedashing/Step-Dashing/Slide-Dashing).


Note: Also, many people seem to think wavedashing is something that competitive players need for the game to be good. This is an incorrect perception. Wavedashing allowed players to move while maintaining an incredible amount of options open to the player, something Brawl doesn't allow, but it isn't really the end all be all of the game. Momentum retaining and hit stun are much more important to the overall flow of the game as it allows more options for approaching/chasing and allows for free flow combos.

Most competitive players would like wavedashing to be part of the game, but they don't think that the lack of wavedash makes the game bad as many people think to believe.

 

[Empyrean]

Note: Also, many people seem to think wavedashing is something that competitive players need for the game to be good. This is an incorrect perception. Wavedashing allowed players to move while maintaining an incredible amount of options open to the player, something Brawl doesn't allow, but it isn't really the end all be all of the game. Momentum retaining and hit stun are much more important to the overall flow of the game as it allows more options for approaching/chasing and allows for free flow combos.

Most competitive players would like wavedashing to be part of the game, but they don't think that the lack of wavedash makes the game bad as many people think to believe.

^ Yes, this. Some people seem to think that wavedashing is the core part of the game in Melee, like it's the only thing that defines it from Brawl. There are actually only a select few characters people wavedash with consistently in the heat of battle. Like you've said, hitstun and momentum retaining are the essential components of what allowed comboing in Melee, and I'm pretty sure everyone would be beyond happy if both returned in Smash 4.

 

[LancerStaff]

Honestly? The action of sliding forward on the ground depending on momentum and friction (traction) might make a return if momentum is retained in Smash 4 (which I believe it is from videos, but can't quite prove yet).

But doing so in idle position from where you had the option to do any attack desired? Probably not. Wavedashing was so useful not because it was faster, but because it allowed so many options (tilting, smashing, specialing, jumping, shield, grabing, etc.) while moving because of the fact that you were in idle position as you slid across the floor. This idle position came from the fact that you landed performing an air dodge, which had no lag upon landing and thus allowed you to immediately enter idle stance.

Even if momentum is retained, and even if there is an action that creates a burst of momentum that allows your character to slide in a similar way to wavedashing, it is very improbable said action will not cause lag upon landing. This will mean that you will lag as you slide and its uses would be incredibly diminished if you could only slide while in a certain lag animation.

The only possibility I see of wavedashing returning exactly as it was is that Sakurai wants to specifically include wavedashing as a technique, and if he does he will probably map it to an actual action/button and acknowledge it as an action your character can take. (I.E.: Shielding, Attacking, Grabbing, Walking, Dashing, Wavedashing/Step-Dashing/Slide-Dashing).

Note: Also, many people seem to think wavedashing is something that competitive players need for the game to be good. This is an incorrect perception. Wavedashing allowed players to move while maintaining an incredible amount of options open to the player, something Brawl doesn't allow, but it isn't really the end all be all of the game. Momentum retaining and hit stun are much more important to the overall flow of the game as it allows more options for approaching/chasing and allows for free flow combos.

Most competitive players would like wavedashing to be part of the game, but they don't think that the lack of wavedash makes the game bad as many people think to believe.

I don't consider momentum to be Wavedashing. I'm mostly talking about the action itself. It requires a series of buttons to successfully use that is more complex then anything intentional in the game. Unless they simplified it to where you could use anything out of dashes, (and if it could still be called Wavedashing at that point,) it can't exist because Sakurai's ideal game design is to keep things simple. His games never throw required technical actions at you.

It is possibe for it to return. But the chances are slim. There's no evidence pointing to it and tons against it.

 

[Stryker]

It requires a series of buttons to successfully use that is more complex then anything intentional in the game.

As someone who is going through learning the AT's of smash like, right now, my opinion is the doing a DACUS is more complex and difficulty than wavedashing. God the timing is so tiny. I can wavedash in fights now, but any time I try to dacus while actually in battle, I always mess it up.

And, maybe someone else can verify, but DACUS is intentionally programmed into the game, right? From what I could tell it works because of IASA deal, which was intentional.

 

[LancerStaff]

As someone who is going through learning the AT's of smash like, right now, my opinion is the doing a DACUS is more complex and difficulty than wavedashing. God the timing is so tiny. I can wavedash in fights now, but any time I try to dacus while actually in battle, I always mess it up.

And, maybe someone else can verify, but DACUS is intentionally programmed into the game, right? From what I could tell it works because of IASA deal, which was intentional.

Meh. We can't really tell if it's intentional unless it gets in SSB4. Even if it isn't, it still doesn't say if it was intentional in Brawl. There's not enough for or against it to really say.

And I don't see what's so hard about it. I've done it in laggy Wi-Fi consistently. Dunno, practice more? I do it as one quick motion.

 

[mimgrim]

And I don't see what's so hard about it. I've done it in laggy Wi-Fi consistently. Dunno, practice more? I do it as one quick motion.

>Claims Wavedash is hard
>Claims DACUS isn't that hard
>Troll confirmed

Seriously.

 

[Thunderfang747]

@D-idara I've been lurking this particular thread for awhile and I just wanted to say I disagree with you but I understand where you are coming from. If you asked me any of the questions posted here about 3 or 4 years ago I probably would have responded in a similar fashion. When Brawl came out I was excited, more characters, more content, so much to discover. Then when I actually played the game in vs. mode with friends who were simply better than me at Melee, I was able to win more matches in Brawl and it made me feel like I was good at the game. It was fun and I got to beat up Marth with Yoshi, what could be better? When mods came out later that tried to "fix" Brawl I didn't understand. Why would people try to fix such a good game? They must be living in the past, this game is different than Melee and they just can't adapt to the environment, etc. etc. I used to think this way. Later in life, I started to play other competitive games, Street Fighter for instance, and I began to understand competition on a much deeper level. After some research of competitive smash I then began to understand the competitive nature of Melee. What makes Melee so good isn't Wavedashing, L-cancelling, or any advanced techs specifically. It is how deep the experience can be if you want to take it there. There are so many factors to consider, and Brawl took a lot of these deeper aspects out. The ability to cancel hitstun and therefore removal of combos took away most of the reward for successfully landing hits. The huge speed reduction made approaches obvious and took away a lot of the mixup potential characters had. The magentic ledges made it easier to recover so there was less risk and punishment for being knocked away. The reason people rag on tripping so much is because it added a factor completely random and out of the control of the player. These are just a few examples, but there are several things in Brawl that simply took away what made Melee such a brilliant mental and competitive game. The point of competition is to outplay the opponent and when everyone is using all they have and all that is available in the system with nothing random standing in the way, it makes the experience absolutely thrilling for some people myself included now. As for Smash 4, I don't think most people want it to be a Melee clone. The reason Project M is what it is, is because Melee is the only blueprint we have of a competitive Smash and the competitive community wanted a way to enjoy Brawl as well. The greatest thing about Smash is it can be played however you want. If all you want to do is play the single player modes, great, if you want to use items on newpork city great, but if you want to take the game to a deeper level of competition that should be fine too. That is all anyone here truly wants from Smash 4 and please understand I do not mean to attack you. This is coming from someone who knew literally nothing about competitive Smash during the pre-Brawl era and who will always hold Brawl in a special place in my heart.

 

[Jaedrik]

I don't think my definition is superior, it's just what I think. There isn't a truer definition. And I like being obtuse. I guess I'm a bit biased about this because I've dealt with some bad Melee fanboys in my time. (Like, boo Brawl tournaments bad.) And I'm not really trying to prove my side, just trying to get the ''Wavedashing is an exploit, and you aren't allowed to think otherwise.'' guys off my back. Those guys...care too much.

While you are wrong, I appreciate your honesty and positivity here.
Kant was called "the lad who throws stones at ideas" by O. William. . . I just can't accept anything but Scholastic realism or the denial of all knowledge, sorry for trying to impose this dichotomy, however true, on you.
As for the jerks. . . just ignore them, that's what I do. . . or try to.

 

[Big-Cat]

Meh. We can't really tell if it's intentional unless it gets in SSB4. Even if it isn't, it still doesn't say if it was intentional in Brawl. There's not enough for or against it to really say.

And I don't see what's so hard about it. I've done it in laggy Wi-Fi consistently. Dunno, practice more? I do it as one quick motion.

I think it's actually written in the game's code.

 

[Chiroz]

I think it's actually written in the game's code.

I have no proof of this (and I do not care either way), but I doubt that cancelling a dash attack into an upsmash and keeping the "burst" of momentum from the dash attack was something that was purposely coded into the game. Specially since there are no other cancels and momentum isn't kept in any other type of action.

Everything that happens in the game is because it was written into the code. The question is, was it an error in the coding or was it intentionally coded that way (and it was just an oversight of the design), in this case I would say its the former.

 

[ChikoLad]

This is how I view it:

Melee: Much better competitive game.
Brawl: Much better game overall.

In the past, I used to go for Melee when I wanted to have really skill based matches with people, where I could use a bunch of advanced techniques. But for pretty much anything else, I went with Brawl.

However, Project M has replaced Melee, and even Brawl to a extent, for me. As Project M retains what is competitive about Melee, but has all of the things Brawl had for me to toy around with, such as the much cooler roster.

I'm already confident Smash 4 will strike a fine balance. It won't be Melee/Project M speed, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The characters don't have to move like Dragonball Z characters for it to be a competitive game. While Smash 4 will be a bit slower in general, it is removing things like tripping, doesn't look outright clunky like Brawl can feel at times, and is totally revamping the edge game (for the better, IMO). And what it lacks in raw speed, it seems to be making up for in emphasising thought, with characters like Rosalina and Villager being extremely methodical characters. Meanwhile, we have characters like Sonic and Little Mac who move real fast and can put the pressure on with a lot of combos.

 

[pitthekit]

Well melee and brawl at TAS precision are thought to have a yomi of shield and grab.

Really in melee and brawl when you can p shield anyone attack all options are gonna start with a grab.(assuming game is played at tas precision)

Retreating would only let your frame perfect foe push you to the ledge.

A yomi of shield and grab neat!


I wonder what a frame perfect match would be like?

 

[Empyrean]

@D-idara I've been lurking this particular thread for awhile and I just wanted to say I disagree with you but I understand where you are coming from. If you asked me any of the questions posted here about 3 or 4 years ago I probably would have responded in a similar fashion. When Brawl came out I was excited, more characters, more content, so much to discover. Then when I actually played the game in vs. mode with friends who were simply better than me at Melee, I was able to win more matches in Brawl and it made me feel like I was good at the game. It was fun and I got to beat up Marth with Yoshi, what could be better? When mods came out later that tried to "fix" Brawl I didn't understand. Why would people try to fix such a good game? They must be living in the past, this game is different than Melee and they just can't adapt to the environment, etc. etc. I used to think this way. Later in life, I started to play other competitive games, Street Fighter for instance, and I began to understand competition on a much deeper level. After some research of competitive smash I then began to understand the competitive nature of Melee. What makes Melee so good isn't Wavedashing, L-cancelling, or any advanced techs specifically. It is how deep the experience can be if you want to take it there. There are so many factors to consider, and Brawl took a lot of these deeper aspects out. The ability to cancel hitstun and therefore removal of combos took away most of the reward for successfully landing hits. The huge speed reduction made approaches obvious and took away a lot of the mixup potential characters had. The magentic ledges made it easier to recover so there was less risk and punishment for being knocked away. The reason people rag on tripping so much is because it added a factor completely random and out of the control of the player. These are just a few examples, but there are several things in Brawl that simply took away what made Melee such a brilliant mental and competitive game. The point of competition is to outplay the opponent and when everyone is using all they have and all that is available in the system with nothing random standing in the way, it makes the experience absolutely thrilling for some people myself included now. As for Smash 4, I don't think most people want it to be a Melee clone. The reason Project M is what it is, is because Melee is the only blueprint we have of a competitive Smash and the competitive community wanted a way to enjoy Brawl as well. The greatest thing about Smash is it can be played however you want. If all you want to do is play the single player modes, great, if you want to use items on newpork city great, but if you want to take the game to a deeper level of competition that should be fine too. That is all anyone here truly wants from Smash 4 and please understand I do not mean to attack you. This is coming from someone who knew literally nothing about competitive Smash during the pre-Brawl era and who will always hold Brawl in a special place in my heart.

I was actually in your exact same situation, except that I came to this community even later. Also, I did not get the chance to play other fighting games, it just started with PM. I used to dislike Melee for not having Brawl's amazing and diverse roster, even though I admitted that Melee did feel deeper. I remember when I frowned upon wavedashing and l-cancelling as if they were ruining the game and how Melee's "super heavy gravity", as I used to call it, destroyed any chance to recover successfully without getting punished. Basically, at that time, Melee felt really hard in a broken and glitchy kind of way. It was much later when I started to realize how superficial my thoughts were in regards to a game I had never even scratched the surface. Not long after, I started appreciating the game (mainly thanks to Project M) and understanding why people couldn't let it go. Here I am now, with an obsessive love for all 3 Smash games (not counting 64, I never could get past that horrible controller), anticipating the next game's release with the rest of you.

 

[LancerStaff]

I have no proof of this (and I do not care either way), but I doubt that cancelling a dash attack into an upsmash and keeping the "burst" of momentum from the dash attack was something that was purposely coded into the game. Specially since there are no other cancels and momentum isn't kept in any other type of action.

Everything that happens in the game is because it was written into the code. The question is, was it an error in the coding or was it intentionally coded that way (and it was just an oversight of the design), in this case I would say its the former.

An easy test is to use a code or something that disables dash u-smashes. If the DACUS gets disabled too, it came from the DUS code and probably wasn't intentional. If it isn't...We'll be back where we started.

It's worth testing at least.

Anyways, I doubt it was intentional. I believe my logic for Wavedashing's disinclusion applys here too.

 

[Empyrean]

Dacus is too hard man. If any technique deserves to be called "unintuitive" in Smash as a series, it's dacus......

......Snakes dacus tho

 

[Stryker]

Its directly programmed into fighter.pac.

DACUS is very intentionally programmed.
The sliding caused by it, not so much.

From http://smashboards.com/threads/is-dacus-a-glitch-exploit-or-legitimate-exploit.319626/

 

[LancerStaff]

From http://smashboards.com/threads/is-dacus-a-glitch-exploit-or-legitimate-exploit.319626/

Pretty nice, but all we can gather from that is that there's fairly specific code to allow it. We don't know if it was caused by the DUS code or not.

This sums up my thoughts exactly.

I believe that the development team allowed players to cancel dash attack into u-smash to help players who would miss the input for u-smash. The idea is that some players are bad at moving the joy stick from forward to up at the exact same time that they hit A, so instead, the game allows the player to input A slightly earlier before up. Most cancels in this game look like they stem from this same concept. Maybe a player who is trying to toss a banana forward accidentally presses shield before the attack button and ends up rolling instead, so they programmed into the game the ability to allow the player to press attack or shield slightly early. The result of taking advantage of this mechanic past its intended use is glide tossing.

All we can do at this point is either wait for SSB4 and see if it's included there, or somehow figure out if it's connected to something else.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I don't think Brawl or Melee tech skill is very hard. What is hard though is BDACUS man... I can BDACUS some times after a dodge or arial but I still haven't been able to do it after Falco's short-hop double laser. Glide tossing with ZSS is fun because she goes half way across the stage! Exploits in any game make it more fun! I'm not trying to brag but I'm trying to say that the tech skills get easier with practice. I might just be generalizing but the people that seem to dislike tech skill are the people that can't do it. I'm not arguing that it makes the game more in depth to me it just makes the game more fun! More fun = better game imo. When I play melee I always super wavedash with Samus, wave-land, I've recently picked up shield dropping. It makes the game more fun to add hidden mechanics and techniques that you can implement. Since brawl takes out all of these things its not as much fun to me. I like to DACUS and BDACUS and glide toss but its not as substantial as Melee tech. Is there anyone who can do the tech skill for both Brawl and Melee and thinks that its bad?

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think Brawl or Melee tech skill is very hard. What is hard though is BDACUS man... I can BDACUS some times after a dodge or arial but I still haven't been able to do it after Falco's short-hop double laser. Glide tossing with ZSS is fun because she goes half way across the stage! Exploits in any game make it more fun! I'm not trying to brag but I'm trying to say that the tech skills get easier with practice. I might just be generalizing but the people that seem to dislike tech skill are the people that can't do it. I'm not arguing that it makes the game more in depth to me it just makes the game more fun! More fun = better game imo. When I play melee I always super wavedash with Samus, wave-land, I've recently picked up shield dropping. It makes the game more fun to add hidden mechanics and techniques that you can implement. Since brawl takes out all of these things its not as much fun to me. I like to DACUS and BDACUS and glide toss but its not as substantial as Melee tech. Is there anyone who can do the tech skill for both Brawl and Melee and thinks that its bad?

All opinion. I can Wingdash, arrow loop, angelic step and many other things. I can't Wavedash or L-cancel, but that has more to do with the fact that I haven't really tried. They mean nothing to me, and I wouldn't bat an eyelash if they were removed. (Well, the sane things to remove. Don't make me explain which.)

 

[Chiroz]

An easy test is to use a code or something that disables dash u-smashes. If the DACUS gets disabled too, it came from the DUS code and probably wasn't intentional. If it isn't...We'll be back where we started.

It's worth testing at least.

Anyways, I doubt it was intentional. I believe my logic for Wavedashing's disinclusion applys here too.

The way we should analyze it is like this:

What exactly causes DACUS?

Well it is a Dash Attack cancelled into an Up Smash.



Lets go step by step:

1. Dash Attacking: Was it meant to be like it is?

We can safely say dash attacks were meant to be in the game



2. Gaining momentum from said Dash Attack

It is clearly safe to assume that depending on the dash attack, some dash attacks were meant to give a "burst" of momentum, like Snakes (and not just use your running speeds momentum)



3. Cancelling the Dash Attack with an Up Smash

Was this meant to be like this? My guess is no. I don't think Sakurai ever wanted any attack to be cancelled into another attack. Probably because of the buffering or the IASA frames a glitch occured where certain attacks (specifically dash attacks) could be cancelled with an up smash, but I am pretty certain this was not something planned by Sakurai to happen.



4. Performing an Up Smash

Pretty safe to say this was intended



5. Retaining momentum from the dash attack

This probably was not meant to happen either, but this one there is no way to prove. We could argue wether momentum was supposed to be retained or not, but it is good to note that the only attack action (aside from specific specials) which retains momentum are Up-Smashes, which is kind of weird that only these attacks share this property. F-Smashing causes Stutter Step instead of retaining the momentum, tilting causes your character to stop dead on its tracks. Also momentum is reset upon landing and jumping. I would bet, even though I have no proof, that the fact that Up-Smash retains momentum is an oversight of the programming of the game and not of the design. Probably design-wise Sakurai didn't want any action to retain a previous action's momentum



Because of this I say that DACUS is most probably a glitch, although someone could probably debate otherwise, but I would like to actually hear an argument against it being a glitch.







For comparisons sake, let's do wavedashing

1. Air Dodging

Was it meant to work like this? It is is safe to assume it was



2. Gaining a burst of momentum

Was air dodge supposed to give you a burst of momentum in a certain direction? Yes, it was described as such in the very definition of the ability.



3. Retaining momentum upon landing

Retaining momentum when jump/landing was completely and purposely programmed into the game physics. Otherwise it wouldn't happen. (It's not something that just happens). Was it meant to be like this? We can say that if momentum was not desired to be retained then they would have easily noticed it on the very first play test. It is quite easy to note how you keep your running speed upon jumping and how you start running as soon as you hit the ground (if you were moving fast enough) and thus would have probably been taken out.



4. Sliding forward due to momentum and friction

We already covered that momentum had to be purposely programmed, otherwise it wouldn't happened or would have been stripped from the game. Every character has a different friction/traction ratio, so that was specifically programmed for every single character, obviously meant to be in the game.



5. Being in idle position while sliding

The burst of momentum is created from the air dodge, which was given no lag after landing, thus this make your character stand in idle animation after falling from an air dodge. Completely meant to be.




The only point that can be debated from wavedashing is point 3 and debating that specific point wouldn't be debating wavedashing, it would be debating the complete Melee Physics Engine, saying that Melee's physics as a whole were not meant to be. As such it is completely safe to assume that Wavedashing is not in fact a glitch and it is a consequence of the physics engine.

 

[LancerStaff]

The way we should analyze it is like this:

What exactly causes DACUS?

Well it is a Dash Attack cancelled into an Up Smash.



Lets go step by step:

1. Dash Attacking: Was it meant to be like it is?

We can safely say dash attacks were meant to be in the game



2. Gaining momentum from said Dash Attack

It is clearly safe to assume that depending on the dash attack, some dash attacks were meant to give a "burst" of momentum, like Snakes (and not just use your running speeds momentum)



3. Cancelling the Dash Attack with an Up Smash

Was this meant to be like this? My guess is no. I don't think Sakurai ever wanted any attack to be cancelled into another attack. Probably because of the buffering or the IASA frames a glitch occured where certain attacks (specifically dash attacks) could be cancelled with an up smash, but I am pretty certain this was not something planned by Sakurai to happen.



4. Performing an Up Smash

Pretty safe to say this was intended



5. Retaining momentum from the dash attack

This probably was not meant to happen either, but this one there is no way to prove. We could argue wether momentum was supposed to be retained or not, but it is good to note that the only attack action (aside from specific specials) which retains momentum are Up-Smashes, which is kind of weird that only these attacks share this property. F-Smashing causes Stutter Step instead of retaining the momentum, tilting causes your character to stop dead on its tracks. Also momentum is reset upon landing and jumping. I would bet, even though I have no proof, that the fact that Up-Smash retains momentum is an oversight of the programming of the game and not of the design. Probably design-wise Sakurai didn't want any action to retain a previous action's momentum



Because of this I say that DACUS is most probably a glitch, although someone could probably debate otherwise, but I would like to actually hear an argument against it being a glitch.







For comparisons sake, let's do wavedashing

1. Air Dodging

Was it meant to work like this? It is is safe to assume it was



2. Gaining a burst of momentum

Was air dodge supposed to give you a burst of momentum in a certain direction? Yes, it was described as such in the very definition of the ability.



3. Retaining momentum upon landing

Retaining momentum when jump/landing was completely and purposely programmed into the game physics. Otherwise it wouldn't happen. (It's not something that just happens). Was it meant to be like this? We can say that if momentum was not desired to be retained then they would have easily noticed it on the very first play test. It is quite easy to note how you keep your running speed upon jumping and how you start running as soon as you hit the ground (if you were moving fast enough) and thus would have probably been taken out.



4. Sliding forward due to momentum and friction

We already covered that momentum had to be purposely programmed, otherwise it wouldn't happened or would have been stripped from the game. Every character has a different friction/traction ratio, so that was specifically programmed for every single character, obviously meant to be in the game.



5. Being in idle position while sliding

The burst of momentum is created from the air dodge, which was given no lag after landing, thus this make your character stand in idle animation after falling from an air dodge. Completely meant to be.




The only point that can be debated from wavedashing is point 3 and debating that specific point wouldn't be debating wavedashing, it would be debating the complete Melee Physics Engine, saying that Melee's physics as a whole were not meant to be. As such it is completely safe to assume that Wavedashing is not in fact a glitch and it is a consequence of the physics engine.

I'd say that U-smashes were supposed to keep momentum, specificly from dashes. Dashing then stopping dead in your tracks with an U-smash would be bizarre with the new ability to, yaknow, do that. It's a new approach option.

As for the Wavedashing bit, the game allows it. But by that definition of exploit, the DACUS is just a consequence of the code. The definition of 'exploit' is too loose, as it can describe basically anything.

 

[Deleted member]

Figured I might as well throw in my 2 cents, even if I'm completely wrong.

I think tech skills are great. They add more depth to the game, give more options, and help the game on a competitive level quite a bit. As to why people don't like them... Ehh I'm drawing a blank, but in most cases I've seen it's because they think that it adds an unneeded skill barrier between competitive play and casual play.

 

[Chiroz]

I'd say that U-smashes were supposed to keep momentum, specificly from dashes. Dashing then stopping dead in your tracks with an U-smash would be bizarre with the new ability to, yaknow, do that. It's a new approach option.

As for the Wavedashing bit, the game allows it. But by that definition of exploit, the DACUS is just a consequence of the code. The definition of 'exploit' is too loose, as it can describe basically anything.

Technically you aren't supposed to perform an Up-Smash from a Dash Attack. I really don't think that out of 8 attacks that can be performed in 3 different games, so 24 attacks in total only 1 of those attacks was meant to cancel an animation and keep momentum from a previous attack. Why that one attack out of the previous 24?

Also you cannot perform a down smash or forward smash while dashing (except for stutter stepping, but that technically isn't dashing). Doing a smash or tilt while moving (walking) stops all momentum. The only attack which is doable while dashing and the only attack that keeps its momentum is Brawl's Up Smash. Out of all tilts and smashes in the 3 games in the series (1 out of 24 moves). It could have technically been programmed this way because Sakurai desired it to be this way, but I really feel that is a longshot. It is much more probable it was a mistake by a programmer that forgot to put some restriction on performing Up-Smashes in Brawl.



Exploit is a very loose explanation. Anything can be an exploit as long as you abuse of it in an unintended way.

Now glitches is where the definition changes, not everything that you abuse is a glitch and not every glitch is abusable. (But some glitches are abusable and this can be considered exploiting a glitch).




The DACUS is also a consequence of the code (like everything is) and is also an exploit. But it is most probably a glitch, I am pretty sure Up Smash was never meant to be able to cancel a dash attack, let alone keep its momentum by Sakurai's design.

 

[Thor]

>Claims Wavedash is hard
> Claims DACUS isn't that hard
> Troll confirmed
Seriously.

Actually no, I have this problem exactly.

Although, the thing is, DACUS is less flexible (i.e., less used) than wavedashing and the punishment for a whiff, especially in certain situations (ex, out of a Falco dthrow when you run after them) is a lot lower. Plus you don't act out of a DACUS except to hold shield or jab, while out of a wavedash as Falco you might want to shine -> SH dair -> shine or something which occurs over less than one second. So after you DACUS, well, if it worked, you can often just hit the taunt button and be ready to go, whereas you might wavedash 8 times in a row to get ready to shield and SH dair to shine or whatever as Fox or Falco.

What I'm trying to get at is, implementing a DACUS is pretty easy, while truly implementing wavedashing isn't. So no, DACUS isn't that hard, while wavedashing can be/is.

Tech skill for the sake of making more technical exploits is pointless, because it serves to punish those who mess it up, instead of just rewarding those who do it right (there is technically no penalty for not trying to wavedash, but there is a penalty for failing to try to L-cancel). Artificial tech skill creates barriers and are annoying because L-cancelling becomes something that holds you back, not helps you get ahead (if you watches matches of the best, they are punished for missing L-cancels, not able to continue combos they otherwise couldn't because of L-cancelling, but a skilled wavedash helps a tech chase that otherwise wouldn't go off, and similarly, there is not a penalty to not wavedashing certain follow-ups besides simply not getting that follow-up).

Maybe some people take issue with this, but I always viewed being the best as being able to best take advantage of the game and a character, or something like that, instead of just being least held back by all the technical demands of the game.

So needing to tap the A button with proper timing to grab the ledge? Pointless tech skill (not implemented either, and not even that hard to do, but it's pointless). DACUS? Useful, cool tech. L-cancelling? Not really (I could see it implemented on a few very specific moves, like Link dair and stall-then-falls - yes it's an extra barrier but it helps prevent a bit of n00b spam which is something Sakurai likes to avoid [although Kirby rock and Pikachu Thunder means it will go on...). Wavedash? It's use is somewhat nonsensical (dodge in the air to move on the ground - if you said this to someone who played another fighting game they'd either look at you crazy or realize you're an SSBM fan) but it does add to the game (although I think losing it doesn't take away from the game nearly as much as people think because it forces compensation in movement that still keeps the game deep and does serve to remove some barriers for less technical players).

And I'm not even a huge fan of wavedashing, wouldn't be the slightest bit disappointed if it didn't return.

 

[Chiroz]

Actually no, I have this problem exactly.

Although, the thing is, DACUS is less flexible (i.e., less used) than wavedashing and the punishment for a whiff, especially in certain situations (ex, out of a Falco dthrow when you run after them) is a lot lower. Plus you don't act out of a DACUS except to hold shield or jab, while out of a wavedash as Falco you might want to shine -> SH dair -> shine or something which occurs over less than one second. So after you DACUS, well, if it worked, you can often just hit the taunt button and be ready to go, whereas you might wavedash 8 times in a row to get ready to shield and SH dair to shine or whatever as Fox or Falco.

What I'm trying to get at is, implementing a DACUS is pretty easy, while truly implementing wavedashing isn't. So no, DACUS isn't that hard, while wavedashing can be/is.

Tech skill for the sake of making more technical exploits is pointless, because it serves to punish those who mess it up, instead of just rewarding those who do it right (there is technically no penalty for not trying to wavedash, but there is a penalty for failing to try to L-cancel). Artificial tech skill creates barriers and are annoying because L-cancelling becomes something that holds you back, not helps you get ahead (if you watches matches of the best, they are punished for missing L-cancels, not able to continue combos they otherwise couldn't because of L-cancelling, but a skilled wavedash helps a tech chase that otherwise wouldn't go off, and similarly, there is not a penalty to not wavedashing certain follow-ups besides simply not getting that follow-up).

Maybe some people take issue with this, but I always viewed being the best as being able to best take advantage of the game and a character, or something like that, instead of just being least held back by all the technical demands of the game.

So needing to tap the A button with proper timing to grab the ledge? Pointless tech skill (not implemented either, and not even that hard to do, but it's pointless). DACUS? Useful, cool tech. L-cancelling? Not really (I could see it implemented on a few very specific moves, like Link dair and stall-then-falls - yes it's an extra barrier but it helps prevent a bit of n00b spam which is something Sakurai likes to avoid [although Kirby rock and Pikachu Thunder means it will go on...). Wavedash? It's use is somewhat nonsensical (dodge in the air to move on the ground - if you said this to someone who played another fighting game they'd either look at you crazy or realize you're an SSBM fan) but it does add to the game (although I think losing it doesn't take away from the game nearly as much as people think because it forces compensation in movement that still keeps the game deep and does serve to remove some barriers for less technical players).

And I'm not even a huge fan of wavedashing, wouldn't be the slightest bit disappointed if it didn't return.

Your post is all jumbled and makes little sense because of the way you express yourself but...

Saying wavedash adds less to the game than DACUS means you haven't really experienced one or the other to its full potential. Wavedash is much more of a "useful, cool tech" than DACUS is quite honestly. It has many more uses. You don't only wavedash to continue a string, you can also do it to approach, to space, to run, to bait. There are many, many reasons to use wavedashing and having it gone detracts many, many options. Having DACUS gone only detracts one option, which was performing a DACUS.

As such, the point that you say:

"although I think losing it doesn't take away from the game nearly as much as people think because it forces compensation in movement that still keeps the game deep and does serve to remove some barriers for less technical players"

Taking wavedashing away takes a completely new movement option. Its literally as if they took jumping, walking or dashing away from the game. Now is the game bad because it doesn't have wavedashing? No, it isn't there are still many options. Is the game worse off because it doesn't have it? Maybe, depends on how it would have been implemented, but more often than not more options is almost always better. (When it is a true option and not something like L-Cancel which isn't an option at all).



Also try telling someone you could use the momentum from a move that can only be performed while running to slide along the floor while performing a move that can only be done while standing. Anything can sound crazy putting it in that context.

 

[Muster]

Your post is all jumbled and makes little sense because of the way you express yourself but...

Saying wavedash adds less to the game than DACUS means you haven't really experienced one or the other to its full potential. Wavedash is much more of a "useful, cool tech" than DACUS is quite honestly. It has many more uses. You don't only wavedash to continue a string, you can also do it to approach, to space, to run, to bait. There are many, many reasons to use wavedashing and having it gone detracts many, many options. Having DACUS gone only detracts one option, which was performing a DACUS.

Exactly, DACUS is an attack option, the wavedash is a mobility and defensive option, one is obviously going to get a lot more use, and should get a lot more practice.
Also, i have no problems pulling off a wavedash, but quickly wavedashing across a stage results in me full jumping more often than not.
Also, not sure if you're the one who explained how the wavedash does make sense because of the waveland, but it's a shame that hasn't been touched upon, so i'll reiterate in my own words.

The wave dash is really just a very early waveland.
For reference, the waveland is performed by air dodging towards the ground when close to get momentum in a certain direction upon falling down to the ground. Is this unintuitive? not in the slightest. You hit the direction you want to go at a downwards angle, and air dodge when close to the ground, then you slide across the ground and you've wavelanded successfully. It makes sense in the game and with the controls. (Wavelanding exists in brawl, but it extremely nerfed due to brawl's hatred for momentum and traction)
The wavedash, however, is using the momentum from an air dodge to reverse momentum as well as put it in the required direction. When you waveland you're mostly already headed towards the ground, so you keep going in a downward direction with your air dodge, but with a small burst of momentum in a certain direction. Wavedashing, however, uses the change of direction that you can achieve from an air dodge and sends you in an extremely early waveland that you initiated off of the beginning of a hop.
An equivalent i could draw up would be a downward kicking move that sends your character down at an angle. Most people would use it at the end of the jump because it would leave you vulnerable if you used it in midair, but someone used it at the beginning of their jump and they find out that it gets a quick powerful kick against the enemy as a result of cancelling the jump into the downward attack. This then becomes a common technique, but people complain that doing the down kick as soon as you input a jump to go up doesn't make sense, and we end up an a similar situation to this one.

tl;dr: Wavedash is only weird because it's preemptive, not unintuitive.

 

[Thor]

Saying wavedash adds less to the game than DACUS means you haven't really experienced one or the other to its full potential. .

XD I stopped reading here because that's like the opposite of what I said. I said a DACUS is easier to implement. Wavedashing has a wider variety of uses, so it's harder to do because of when to use it and the followups. DACUS followups are usually taunting or whatever, while you might wavedash to wavedash to shine to dair to shine to dair as Falco, which is way tougher. I'll read the rest of your post in a bit.

 

[Chiroz]

XD I stopped reading here because that's like the opposite of what I said. I said a DACUS is easier to implement. Wavedashing has a wider variety of uses, so it's harder to do because of when to use it and the followups. DACUS followups are usually taunting or whatever, while you might wavedash to wavedash to shine to dair to shine to dair as Falco, which is way tougher. I'll read the rest of your post in a bit.

I understand, but then you said taking wavedash away wasn't a big deal, while DACUS should be kept because its just a "cool technique". You cannot argue that DACUS is just a cool little technique so it doesn't matter if it stays and then say that an overall better technique in every sense of the word should go because it doesn't add that much to the game.

 

[Thor]

Taking wavedashing away takes a completely new movement option. Its literally as if they took jumping, walking or dashing away from the game. Now is the game bad because it doesn't have wavedashing? No, it isn't there are still many options. Is the game worse off because it doesn't have it? Maybe, depends on how it would have been implemented, but more often than not more options is almost always better. (When it is a true option and not something like L-Cancel which isn't an option at all).

XD There isn't a substitute for jumping, you could substitute dashing or walking with wavedashing although that's pretty awkward. But the game was pretty fluid in SSB64 and is still fluid if played well in Brawl (except for that tripping thing). Wavedashing has substitutes, they aren't perfect, but they do still allow for a deep game. That's what I was trying to say. I don't think wavedashing being (in many cases) superior to what I'll call standard movement (walking, running, jumping, NOT a DACUS or pikasliding or floating) means it must be there.

Also try telling someone you could use the momentum from a move that can only be performed while running to slide along the floor while performing a move that can only be done while standing. Anything can sound crazy putting it in that context.

Attack cancels (usually on-hit, not always, shoutouts to Marvel or whatever). Thesis behind P:M Lucario is on hit cancels. Also you could use that as an argument for wavedashing if you change "running" to "airborne" [which I find funny because your intent was to mock a description of a DACUS]. But aerial dodge cancels into movement on the ground? Unique to SSBM, as far as I've seen.

*stuff about wavelanding

Um... okay? It's cool and all, but you can just normally land? I'm not sure I see where this is going, beyond "tech is good..." or maybe that's the whole point. Okay, wavelanding and wavedashing have a use for many people, they add to the game for those people. Not for me so I won't miss them but it doesn't mean I want to see them absent per se (landing with an airdodge in Brawl was always enough for me, directional boosts are nice but I don't use them as well as other players do).

I understand, but then you said taking wavedash away wasn't a big deal, while DACUS should be kept because its just a "cool technique". You cannot argue that DACUS is just a cool little technique so it doesn't matter if it stays and then say that an overall better technique in every sense of the word should go because it doesn't add that much to the game.

No I didn't. I said DACUS is something that I like because it's a cool technique but not knowing it won't kill you. I also said I didn't care for wavedashing, so it's personally not a big deal. I understand that, in as much as you feel Melee movement is inherently better than SSB64 or Brawl movement, it hurts the game to lack wavedashing. I don't care for wavedashing, [it doesn't add much to the game FOR ME] but I know it adds a lot to the game and would make a difference to many players. Maybe if I got a little better at Melee I'd care more, but even good players I know who use Melee and Brawl don't think Brawl was that much worse off for not having wavedashing (they all agree tripping sucks though).

Also DACUS is more limited but wavedashing incurs frames of landing lag. There is no landing lag on a DACUS (you can go straight to movement and charging or using a smash, can't with a wavedash). Also wavedashing doesn't KO people off the top without added inputs. A DACUS does. Wavedashing is not better in every sense of the word.

EDIT: I was typing all over the place, so if there's an unfinished thought in here, ignore it - I already fixed two of them.

 

[Thor]

Yes double post but I'll just summarize to clear this up:

I'm not a fan of wavedashing. That said, it adds depth to the game. Whether it comes back or not is irrelevant to me, although I understand why other people care.

DACUS is cool too. It can KO people and doesn't have a very large penalty for failure (usually) and no real penalty for not attempting it.

I don't see a real upside to eliminating the DACUS, while you'd have to change air-dodge mechanics to re-implementing wavedashing, so if Sakurai likes current air-dodge mechanics, there is an upside to eliminating/not including wavedashing. I haven't seen a reason to eliminate DACUS, I have seen one to get rid of wavedashing. That said, wavedashing does add depth to the game, regardless of whether or not I appreciate that depth as of right now. For many that depth probably matters more than the current air-dodge - it's just not true in my specific case.

I think I'm just done here, you can disagree with me if you want, I'll read it but I can't say I think you'll massively change my mind. We've offered our opinions and discussed them, it's about all we can do because Sakurai is the game-maker.

 

[Muster]

Um... okay? It's cool and all, but you can just normally land? I'm not sure I see where this is going, beyond "tech is good..." or maybe that's the whole point. Okay, wavelanding and wavedashing have a use for many people, they add to the game for those people. Not for me so I won't miss them but it doesn't mean I want to see them absent per se (landing with an airdodge in Brawl was always enough for me, directional boosts are nice but I don't use them as well as other players do).

It provides a mobility option, that's about it. Wavelanding is a lot less useful than wavedashing because it is only used at the end of a jump, but it is still useful. Wavedashing is just taking wavelanding to the extreme. It's handy, and does nothing but deepen the game from a competitive standpoint, but it doesn't need to be in sm4sh, so i'm fine with you not caring about its return.
(judging from the momentum i've seen in sm4sh, wavelanding is probably returning, with a buff from its brawl version.)

 

[Chiroz]

Attack cancels (usually on-hit, not always, shoutouts to Marvel or whatever). Thesis behind P:M Lucario is on hit cancels. Also you could use that as an argument for wavedashing if you change "running" to "airborne" [which I find funny because your intent was to mock a description of a DACUS]. But aerial dodge cancels into movement on the ground? Unique to SSBM, as far as I've seen.

I was stating that you can mock anything, it depends on how you phrase it. I could phrase wavedash as: Using momentum to slide forward (or backwards). That doesn't sound even remotely ridiculous right? Then if they ask, how do you create said momentum to slide? I tell them, you use a dodge that creates momentum. If anything the unintuitive part is the fact that we can double jump or do a "directional" dodge in the air, that is not like real physics at all. (Granted directional air dodge actually got taken out of the game).

It depends on how ridiculous you want to phrase it, and which angle you want to look at it from.



Also while many fighting games have cancels, they don't cancel the actual attack and keep its momentum. It's normally cancel the lag from the move and don't keep any extra properties (which is the trade off for canceling).

Also DACUS is more limited but wavedashing incurs frames of landing lag. There is no landing lag on a DACUS (you can go straight to movement and charging or using a smash, can't with a wavedash). Also wavedashing doesn't KO people off the top without added inputs. A DACUS does. Wavedashing is not better in every sense of the word.

You could wavedash into Up-Smash and it would work almost exactly like a short DACUS. (Or multiple wavedashes into Up-Smash which would work almost exactly like a slow DACUS).

 

[xandre]

some thoughts:

you're downplaying how hard DACUS is to use effectively, and ignoring the fact that wavedashing can be used in extremely simple ways effectively. most people gradually learn to implement wavedashing by doing rudimentary things like baiting a forward smash and wavedashing backwards. that's literally all i did for like 2 years. there is nothing more complicated about wavedashing into an upsmash than DACUSing into one, except that wavedashing lengths are more familiar/predictable and therefore easier to aim/judge.

"Question: Am I allowed to think what I want?"

"All opinion."

lancerstaff's M.O.:

1) complain when people participate ("was i talking to you?")
2) put forth arguments in a completely unorganized fashion, largely ignoring what's been written before and immediately after them
3) demand people address his arguments ("can we get back to x?"; can we get back to y?")
4) when people address them, repeat only "i'm allowed to have an opinion, gah, leave me alone."
5) when people put forth any arguments of their own, demand that anything they ever say must be opinion, dismissing any and all good points and counterpoints they've made in order to swiftly jump back to #3.

i'm absolutely baffled by you, kid. i just don't understand what you want out of all this. it's like you demand one specific thing to be talked about, and as soon as it's talked about you immediately just start screaming "opinion" and try to change the subject time after time. you're just ignoring good input because you don't like what you hear, but you keep coming back because you don't know what you're looking for. and please, for the sake of everyone here, just never say "opinion" again. we know, man. we just ****ing know already.

l-cancels are a more interesting topic because they raise the issue of whether arbitrary difficulty is a good thing or not. if you think it's always or never a good thing, you're wrong. easy, but confounds more people in more ways than the wavedashing debate.

if you take out wavedashing......
1) dashdancing will be affected, because it will be more predictable. if you dash too far, you can't turn around quickly by wavedashing. an opponent will know when you've committed to coming out of a dashdance, in other words.
2) an insane amount of combos will be made impossible, especially those involving platforms. you won't be able to reset your jumps to chase by airdodging down as soon as you come up through a platform, nor will you be able attain quick lateral movement in many situations involving platforms.
3) edge guarding will lose several dimensions. getting off and to the ledge will take longer and therefore be more predictable.
4) mind games will lose innumerable dimensions; way fewer mix-up possibilities

i'm not sure how people can say things like "i don't really care either way," because it implies that it wouldn't make that big of a difference if it weren't in. this is just not the case in the slightest. and no...this is not an "opinion." it is a reasonably accurate description of reality by normative usage of english words. taking wavedashing out will make everyone much less deadly because it will remove many ways to harm your opponent both directly and indirectly. as if we hadn't seen this firsthand already. if you MUST remove it, then implement something that will account for that loss of deadliness. something like making an instant turn-around from a dash possible at all times, e.g. something like a command that makes you stick to the ground if you want while coming up from the bottom of a platform, e.g. re-imagine ledge mechanics altogether, e.g. if you just propose "oh take out wavedashing because whatever," then you'd be a terrible game designer because you'd sever a limb off the game and offer nothing to compensate. imagination, people. i've already played smash 64.

 

[Johnknight1]

If you guys had as much tech skill as me you'd be tripping so much in Brawl LSD addicts would tell to sober up.

 

[Muster]

3) edge guarding will lose several dimensions. getting off and to the ledge will take longer and therefore be more predictable.

I do agree with this statement as a whole, but wavedashing off the edge will have a lot less utility when you get your ledge grab trumped in this game, i'd reckon. (on a side note, if grapples don't auto trump then i'm going to light a bag of dog crap in front of Sakurai's cousin's house.)

If you guys had as much tech skill as me you'd be tripping so much in Brawl LSD addicts would tell to sober up.

I hate people like you who just play this game to use ridiculous techs like tripdashing. How DARE you play the game competitively using techs and skills that i haven't learned from my 30 minute play periods of items on versus 3 level 3 cpus!? You are all elitist douchepickles who need a spanking from Sakurai.
(Trip dashing needs to be a thing)

 

[Chiroz]

I do agree with this statement, but wavedashing off the edge will have a lot less utility when you get your ledge grab trumped in this game, i'd reckon. (on a side note, if grapples don't auto trump then i'm going to light a bag of dog crap in front of Sakurai's cousin's house.)

Theres a way to quick grab the ledge in Brawl too though. At least Sonic had it. It was a shoryuken style movement of the control stick going from the bottom to the direction of the ledge as soon as you dropped. Also with ICs I could:

Start dash->B (which Nana didn't do because I did it before she came out of dashing animation, thus desynching)->Dashing only with Nana (Popo was still in Neutral B animation) and dropping her to ledge, this was also decently fast.



I mean, there were still options to drop quickly to the ledge, if I can remember correctly. But I haven't played in many years. Anyways we still need to figure out how that trumping works, hopefully it isn't as bad of a mechanic as tripping was. (Who knows, it could even be a good mechanic to have).

 

[Johnknight1]

I hate people like you who just play this game to use ridiculous techs like tripdashing. How DARE you play the game competitively using techs and skills that i haven't learned from my 30 minute play periods of items on versus 3 level 3 cpus!? You are all elitist douchepickles who need a spanking from Sakurai.
(Trip dashing needs to be a thing)