The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[Stryker]

Just look.

The filthy casual Link wasn't pro enough to use tripping right, so he died.

I dunno man. Is that M2K playing peach cause that's some pretty pro shielding. Clearly that advanced shielding technique is what decided that match

 

[Johnknight1]

I dunno man. Is that M2K playing peach cause that's some pretty pro shielding. Clearly that advanced shielding technique is what decided that match

pfft, that's nothing compared to the tech skill needed to stop random tripping.

You gotta be frame within a frame within a frame perfect to stop that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Annnnd Lancer comes back to prove me wrong. Drat.

Also, please fact check before spouting nonsense

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/08/sakurai-describes-grueling-development-of-smash-bros-melee/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Melee#Development_and_release

He literally states that he worked on it for 13 months. That's 4 to 5 times the amount of time you just pulled out of your *** man.

And in seriousness, that interview makes it seem like he put in more than 13 months worth of full time work.

Talk about totally missing what I said. Disk production first of all, and who'd think that a glitch would be discovered by players while under production. Don't tell me you think I'm that stupid.

I can post short stuff for this week BTW. And why do you people insist on the insults? Can't you guys just politely point out what I'm wrong about?

 

[xandre]

" I'll gladly withdraw them if you do."

ultimate. ****ing. troll.

 

[Muster]

" I'll gladly withdraw them if you do."

ultimate. ****ing. troll.

It's always the pit mains, i tell ya.

And why do you people insist on the insults? Can't you guys just politely point out what I'm wrong about?

Innate rage from boss battles at 9.0? maybe. Frustration from your "arguments"? maybe.
Getting sniped by that ****ing staff from across the map as your team's angel? maybe.
HIYAYAYAYAYA? definitely.

 

[xandre]

joined less than a month ago and has 450 messages.

 

[xandre]

Talk about totally missing what I said. Disk production first of all, and who'd think that a glitch would be discovered by players while under production. Don't tell me you think I'm that stupid.

I can post short stuff for this week BTW. And why do you people insist on the insults? Can't you guys just politely point out what I'm wrong about?

we tried doing that. you either didn't read what we said or you said really stupid things in response. our only recourse is now counter-trolling.

 

[LancerStaff]

we tried doing that. you either didn't read what we said or you said really stupid things in response. our only recourse is now counter-trolling.

What exactly did you prove? That you can define practically anything as an exploit? What you are trying to prove is a term made up by gamers applys to a glitch, which in of itself is an opinion. Why do you people care so much? I am just one person who doesn't agree with you. "I could say the same for you." you say? I'm defending my opinion.

Tell you what, I'll lay out all my thoughts on why I consider Wavedashing to be a glitch.

Exploit: to use or abuse, essentially. I can use jumps. I can abuse glitches. The gaming definition and the actual definition are two different things. I don't care for the made-up, unofficial definition.

Even if I were to believe in such nonsense, where are you supposed to draw the line? Look at the thing in KIU that temporarily transfers mods. The game itself reacts the same way to it, every time. I can 'exploit' it. But not a single KIU player would call it such. Why is Wavedashing special? Well...

Some would call it a corner-case. I can see why someone would, but I prefer to see this in a more definite way. Am I not allowed? And if it actually is has been brought into question. But that can't be proven or disproven and isn't worth bringing up in my opinion.

Go ahead and question and attempt to disprove my statements. If this doesn't get posted I swear I'll break this thing!

 

[JediLink]

We're 19 pages in and LancerStaff is still trying to argue that wavedashing is a glitch.

This thread:

 

[LancerStaff]

We're 19 pages in and LancerStaff is still trying to argue that wavedashing is a glitch.

Close. I see it as a glitch. I call it a glitch. But did I ever say you weren't allowed to think your own way? These people seem to think I can't.

 

[xandre]

god i hate you

 

[Muster]

god i hate you

Not cool man

 

[LancerStaff]

god i hate you

If you think I'm a troll, wouldn't posting that be the exact opposite of the right thing to do? By your thinking, you're 'feeding the troll.' So quit feeding the troll.

 

[xandre]

i have a lancerstaff infection

correction: the entire smashboards community does

 

[xandre]

If you think I'm a troll, wouldn't posting that be the exact opposite of the right thing to do? By your thinking, you're 'feeding the troll.' So quit feeding the troll.

also, this is completely illogical. if you're a troll, it's perfectly reasonable to express my dislike for you. if you're not a troll, my dislike can still be based on how obtuse/redundant you've been. swing and a miss.

 

[LancerStaff]

also, this is completely illogical. if you're a troll, it's perfectly reasonable to express my dislike for you. if you're not a troll, my dislike can still be based on how obtuse/redundant you've been. swing and a miss.

Ah yes, but if I am a troll, none of this has to make sense. If I'm not, you're not contributing to the argument.

 

[xandre]

Ah yes, but if I am a troll, none of this has to make sense. If I'm not, you're not contributing to the argument.

unfortunately for you, you've done a piss poor job arguing and being a troll. it doesn't matter what you really are, you're bad at whatever it is.

and i've contributed more in 2-3 posts than you could in a lifetime.

 

[Chiroz]

Even though I think it will do no good, I will try to put my 2 cents in.

Lancerstaff, as an actual systems engineer who has worked as a programmer in various companies and who is also about to finish a master's degree in Game Development I will tell you what is regarded as a "glitch" and what is regarded as an "exploit" by most game developers.

Note that this is not an actual definition of either glitch or exploit, it is merely what the difference is from an actual conversation point of view.



A glitch happens when a certain action (or series of actions) causes an unforeseen consequence in the game itself, that is in no way meant to happen. So say, a glitch would be actually tampering with the game itself. In a way, a glitch will always occur due to erroneous or incomplete programming.

An exploit on the other hand a certain action (or series of actions) that causes an expected consequence and works exactly as desires, but is then used in completely unforeseen (and normally game-breaking) by the player. Exploits are normally in the game due to inadequate game design.

Say for example in Original Vanilla World of Warcraft, there was a certain monster that would become immune to all attacks thrown by using a certain ability. There was a glitch, where if you threw another certain ability at the same time he activated his invulnerability ability, he would be invulnerable forever This was definitely a glitch. There was an error in the programming where some conditions were not considered and as such the code would not know what to do when the monster was mortally damaged with a certain spell exactly at the same time when he should have activated his immunity.

Players exploited this glitch by training weapon skill infinitely on this monster.

Now there was this other monster, who story-wise had to be killed at a certain location. He was programmed so that he would never die outside of this certain altar because it was part of his "story". This was not a glitch as there was no problem with the programming. The problem was that the designers didn't think that players would actually want to fight an invulnerable monster, they didn't foresee how they would fight him (you had to kite him to a certain spot and let a guard tank the monster) or the actual benefits this could have for players.



If you go into Wavedash as an example, Wavedash is in all intent and purposes completely meant to happen from a design point of view. Melee was purposely made to maintain momentum when you jump into the air and when you land into the floor, probably to make the game more realistic and make the fight flow much smoother. Fact is, this idea of keeping momentum at all times is what lead to wavedashing, as "Air Dodging" creates a huge burst of momentum, and thus when done towards the ground it creates "wavedashing". Wavedashing was not an error in the programming or in the game itself, it was an oversight of the game design and as thus cannot be defined as a glitch from a developer point of view.

In Brawl they took away directional air dodge and as such you were not able to create "bursts" of momentum. In the first Brawl demo momentum was still kept when you jumped and landed and thus there was a semi-wavedash (more like a waveland) when certain actions where done before landing. Momentum was completely taken out of Brawl by the end product. There is actually no momentum in Brawl. Characters have different air speeds and ground speeds and their speeds get "reset" upon jumping or landing.

- If you want to test this out, pick Sonic (or any character, he is just the easiest one to notice), run at full speed and then jump and release the control stick at the very same moment you jump, you will notice Sonic will actually jump in place. Now land on the floor while pressing foward and you will notice Sonic will actually completely stop moving when he lands and then just walk (not even dash). On the other hand, if you were to pick Melee Falcon and jump while running at full speed, Falcon will shoot forward at full speed. If you were to keep pressing forward when you land, Falcon will stop for a sec (while very, very slightly moving a bit foward) upon landing and then run at full speed (keeping his momentum from his jump).



Wavedash was not exactly taken out in Brawl, momentum was. And since wavedash is just a burst of momentum used in a desired direction, no momentum = no wavedash. Sakurai might have taken momentum out to deal with wavedash, or maybe he just took momentum out so that players would have an easier time going from ground to air and air to ground (characters like Sheik, Fox and Falcon might have been hard to use for new players). We will never know why he took it out (Which was one of the worst decisions .

Quite honestly even though I am actually pro wavedash, I am actually much, much more pro momentum even if wavedash doesn't come back. For me, Melee felt much more fluid and just all the much better when you could jump at full speed towards your opponent. It also gave much more approaching options.





TL;DR:

A glitch is a consequence that was not meant to happen by game design but errors in the coding cause it.

An exploit is abusing a certain consequence that was meant to happen by game design but was not foreseen to be used in a certain way by the design (Even though there are no errors in the coding).



A glitch can also theoretically be exploited, but it would still be considered "glitching" the game or using a "glitch" and not an "exploit".

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

i have a lancerstaff infection

correction: the entire smashboards community does

Let's see:

Unbearably painful, sticks out like a sore thumb, omits bile.

All checks out.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Nintendo fanboys hate tech skill because Sakurai believes that tech skill makes the game inaccessible. Said fanboys had no problems playing Melee, but once Sakurai told them that Melee was too hard and Brawl was more accessible, they realized that Melee was too hard all along.

Also techskill requires two hands to play and Nintendo fanboys need one hand to fap to the Nintendo fanservice and nostalgia while playing.

edit: i'm just kidding. except if you are Pikajew or d-idara.

 

[pitthekit]

Nintendo fanboys hate tech skill because Sakurai believes that tech skill makes the game inaccessible. Said fanboys had no problems playing Melee, but once Sakurai told them that Melee was too hard and Brawl was more accessible, they realized that Melee was too hard all along.

Also techskill requires two hands to play and Nintendo fanboys need one hand to fap to the Nintendo fanservice and nostalgia while playing.

edit: i'm just kidding. except if you are lancerstaff or d-idara.

Lol

 

[Jaedrik]

Close. I see it as a glitch. I call it a glitch. But did I ever say you weren't allowed to think your own way? These people seem to think I can't.

I firmly believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to think, and that humans are constrained in that we are rational and causal creatures who naturally try to fit intellectual concepts (universals) with individual examples of said concepts, as well as associate concepts together to classify and generalize and form a more coherent map of reality.
It has been demonstrated numerous times in this thread that the idea that constitutes the universal "glitch" bears only superficial resemblance to the idea of the universal wavedash, as such I can't really think of it in terms of preference or opinion. . . simply, it is intellectual error to think otherwise.
At least, that's how I see things

 

[guedes the brawler]

you can bet your asses that if Sakurai knew about those techs from melee and left a tutorial for all of them,a s well as letting CPUs of level 7+ use them, nobody would've complained.

 

[Ulevo]

Even though I think it will do no good, I will try to put my 2 cents in.

Lancerstaff, as an actual systems engineer who has worked as a programmer in various companies and who is also about to finish a master's degree in Game Development I will tell you what is regarded as a "glitch" and what is regarded as an "exploit" by most game developers.

Note that this is not an actual definition of either glitch or exploit, it is merely what the difference is from an actual conversation point of view.



A glitch happens when a certain action (or series of actions) causes an unforeseen consequence in the game itself, that is in no way meant to happen. So say, a glitch would be actually tampering with the game itself. In a way, a glitch will always occur due to erroneous or incomplete programming.

An exploit on the other hand a certain action (or series of actions) that causes an expected consequence and works exactly as desires, but is then used in completely unforeseen (and normally game-breaking) by the player. Exploits are normally in the game due to inadequate game design.

Say for example in Original Vanilla World of Warcraft, there was a certain monster that would become immune to all attacks thrown by using a certain ability. There was a glitch, where if you threw another certain ability at the same time he activated his invulnerability ability, he would be invulnerable forever This was definitely a glitch. There was an error in the programming where some conditions were not considered and as such the code would not know what to do when the monster was mortally damaged with a certain spell exactly at the same time when he should have activated his immunity.

Players exploited this glitch by training weapon skill infinitely on this monster.

Now there was this other monster, who story-wise had to be killed at a certain location. He was programmed so that he would never die outside of this certain altar because it was part of his "story". This was not a glitch as there was no problem with the programming. The problem was that the designers didn't think that players would actually want to fight an invulnerable monster, they didn't foresee how they would fight him (you had to kite him to a certain spot and let a guard tank the monster) or the actual benefits this could have for players.



If you go into Wavedash as an example, Wavedash is in all intent and purposes completely meant to happen from a design point of view. Melee was purposely made to maintain momentum when you jump into the air and when you land into the floor, probably to make the game more realistic and make the fight flow much smoother. Fact is, this idea of keeping momentum at all times is what lead to wavedashing, as "Air Dodging" creates a huge burst of momentum, and thus when done towards the ground it creates "wavedashing". Wavedashing was not an error in the programming or in the game itself, it was an oversight of the game design and as thus cannot be defined as a glitch from a developer point of view.

In Brawl they took away directional air dodge and as such you were not able to create "bursts" of momentum. In the first Brawl demo momentum was still kept when you jumped and landed and thus there was a semi-wavedash (more like a waveland) when certain actions where done before landing. Momentum was completely taken out of Brawl by the end product. There is actually no momentum in Brawl. Characters have different air speeds and ground speeds and their speeds get "reset" upon jumping or landing.

- If you want to test this out, pick Sonic (or any character, he is just the easiest one to notice), run at full speed and then jump and release the control stick at the very same moment you jump, you will notice Sonic will actually jump in place. Now land on the floor while pressing foward and you will notice Sonic will actually completely stop moving when he lands and then just walk (not even dash). On the other hand, if you were to pick Melee Falcon and jump while running at full speed, Falcon will shoot forward at full speed. If you were to keep pressing forward when you land, Falcon will stop for a sec (while very, very slightly moving a bit foward) upon landing and then run at full speed (keeping his momentum from his jump).



Wavedash was not exactly taken out in Brawl, momentum was. And since wavedash is just a burst of momentum used in a desired direction, no momentum = no wavedash. Sakurai might have taken momentum out to deal with wavedash, or maybe he just took momentum out so that players would have an easier time going from ground to air and air to ground (characters like Sheik, Fox and Falcon might have been hard to use for new players). We will never know why he took it out (Which was one of the worst decisions .

Quite honestly even though I am actually pro wavedash, I am actually much, much more pro momentum even if wavedash doesn't come back. For me, Melee felt much more fluid and just all the much better when you could jump at full speed towards your opponent. It also gave much more approaching options.





TL;DR:

A glitch is a consequence that was not meant to happen by game design but errors in the coding cause it.

An exploit is abusing a certain consequence that was meant to happen by game design but was not foreseen to be used in a certain way by the design (Even though there are no errors in the coding).



A glitch can also theoretically be exploited, but it would still be considered "glitching" the game or using a "glitch" and not an "exploit".

I suggest everyone read this and remember it because it hopefully clears up a lot of unnecessary confusion that inevitably starts needless arguments.

 

[LancerStaff]

Even though I think it will do no good, I will try to put my 2 cents in.

Lancerstaff, as an actual systems engineer who has worked as a programmer in various companies and who is also about to finish a master's degree in Game Development I will tell you what is regarded as a "glitch" and what is regarded as an "exploit" by most game developers.

Note that this is not an actual definition of either glitch or exploit, it is merely what the difference is from an actual conversation point of view.



A glitch happens when a certain action (or series of actions) causes an unforeseen consequence in the game itself, that is in no way meant to happen. So say, a glitch would be actually tampering with the game itself. In a way, a glitch will always occur due to erroneous or incomplete programming.

An exploit on the other hand a certain action (or series of actions) that causes an expected consequence and works exactly as desires, but is then used in completely unforeseen (and normally game-breaking) by the player. Exploits are normally in the game due to inadequate game design.

Say for example in Original Vanilla World of Warcraft, there was a certain monster that would become immune to all attacks thrown by using a certain ability. There was a glitch, where if you threw another certain ability at the same time he activated his invulnerability ability, he would be invulnerable forever This was definitely a glitch. There was an error in the programming where some conditions were not considered and as such the code would not know what to do when the monster was mortally damaged with a certain spell exactly at the same time when he should have activated his immunity.

Players exploited this glitch by training weapon skill infinitely on this monster.

Now there was this other monster, who story-wise had to be killed at a certain location. He was programmed so that he would never die outside of this certain altar because it was part of his "story". This was not a glitch as there was no problem with the programming. The problem was that the designers didn't think that players would actually want to fight an invulnerable monster, they didn't foresee how they would fight him (you had to kite him to a certain spot and let a guard tank the monster) or the actual benefits this could have for players.



If you go into Wavedash as an example, Wavedash is in all intent and purposes completely meant to happen from a design point of view. Melee was purposely made to maintain momentum when you jump into the air and when you land into the floor, probably to make the game more realistic and make the fight flow much smoother. Fact is, this idea of keeping momentum at all times is what lead to wavedashing, as "Air Dodging" creates a huge burst of momentum, and thus when done towards the ground it creates "wavedashing". Wavedashing was not an error in the programming or in the game itself, it was an oversight of the game design and as thus cannot be defined as a glitch from a developer point of view.

In Brawl they took away directional air dodge and as such you were not able to create "bursts" of momentum. In the first Brawl demo momentum was still kept when you jumped and landed and thus there was a semi-wavedash (more like a waveland) when certain actions where done before landing. Momentum was completely taken out of Brawl by the end product. There is actually no momentum in Brawl. Characters have different air speeds and ground speeds and their speeds get "reset" upon jumping or landing.

- If you want to test this out, pick Sonic (or any character, he is just the easiest one to notice), run at full speed and then jump and release the control stick at the very same moment you jump, you will notice Sonic will actually jump in place. Now land on the floor while pressing foward and you will notice Sonic will actually completely stop moving when he lands and then just walk (not even dash). On the other hand, if you were to pick Melee Falcon and jump while running at full speed, Falcon will shoot forward at full speed. If you were to keep pressing forward when you land, Falcon will stop for a sec (while very, very slightly moving a bit foward) upon landing and then run at full speed (keeping his momentum from his jump).



Wavedash was not exactly taken out in Brawl, momentum was. And since wavedash is just a burst of momentum used in a desired direction, no momentum = no wavedash. Sakurai might have taken momentum out to deal with wavedash, or maybe he just took momentum out so that players would have an easier time going from ground to air and air to ground (characters like Sheik, Fox and Falcon might have been hard to use for new players). We will never know why he took it out (Which was one of the worst decisions .

Quite honestly even though I am actually pro wavedash, I am actually much, much more pro momentum even if wavedash doesn't come back. For me, Melee felt much more fluid and just all the much better when you could jump at full speed towards your opponent. It also gave much more approaching options.





TL;DR:

A glitch is a consequence that was not meant to happen by game design but errors in the coding cause it.

An exploit is abusing a certain consequence that was meant to happen by game design but was not foreseen to be used in a certain way by the design (Even though there are no errors in the coding).



A glitch can also theoretically be exploited, but it would still be considered "glitching" the game or using a "glitch" and not an "exploit".

Finally, an intelligent post. It's well thought out and describes why you think what you do, and doesn't toss around insults like a GFAQSer. It doesn't change my opinion, but it's easily the best post for the ''not a glitch'' side.

My opinion comes in with the definitions. I read the whole thing, but I'll be pointing at the TLDR because my tablet sucks. The actual definition of exploit has nothing to do with the made-up one, and that definition can partially overlap with 'glitch.' Everybody draws the line between 'glitch' and 'exploit' in different places, and I drew mine in a way exploits don't exist in my opinion.

Arguing about opinions. Bleh. Why can't these people accept I'm not changing mine because they insult me?

Nintendo fanboys hate tech skill because Sakurai believes that tech skill makes the game inaccessible. Said fanboys had no problems playing Melee, but once Sakurai told them that Melee was too hard and Brawl was more accessible, they realized that Melee was too hard all along.

Also techskill requires two hands to play and Nintendo fanboys need one hand to fap to the Nintendo fanservice and nostalgia while playing.

edit: i'm just kidding. except if you are lancerstaff or d-idara.

I hate Brawl fanboys as much as Melee fanboys. Have you ever seen me complain about tech skill? Have I ever said that you're playing the game wrong? Have I ever insulted you or Melee?

you can bet your ***** that if Sakurai knew about those techs from melee and left a tutorial for all of them,a s well as letting CPUs of level 7+ use them, nobody would've complained.

Correct. But he didn't. I firmly believe that SSB4 and all future SSBs will keep cutting 'techs' wether it helps or hurts because that's the way Sakurai is.

 

[Empyrean]

pfft, that's nothing compared to the tech skill needed to stop random tripping.

You gotta be frame within a frame within a frame perfect to stop that.

What nobody ever realized all this time is that l-cancelling is actually present in Brawl. It is the master technique to stop tripping. If I recall my frame data correctly, it requires you to input the down taunt input (this works ONLY on the wiimote) about 16-17 times PRIOR to the tripping animations (compared to this, waveshining is for scrubs). If done correctly, your character will get the star power-up and Slippy will congratulate you for a job well done. However, if you miss even ONE input, then you lose your set and are disqualified from every future event. This is why Melee vets don't bother playing Brawl. **** is too hard and risky for their scrubby selves.

tl;dr;
Wiimote2gud.

 

[StarshipGroove]

I hate Brawl fanboys as much as Melee fanboys. Have you ever seen me complain about tech skill? Have I ever said that you're playing the game wrong? Have I ever insulted you or Melee?

No you didn't, I just assumed you were a blind Nintendo fanatic because the SSB4 boards are rife with them!
You don't believe that either Melee or Brawl is perfect? Then you have your own ideas on the matter instead of being a blind follower, and that's fine even if we have different views.

sorry for the offense man!

 

[pitthekit]

We'll raykz told you the official definition for an exploit which wavedash is certainly an exploit on the physics engine.

We now expect you to call wavedash an exploit or else you will be making intellectual errors as monk4 described.

We want you to communicate with us using the official definition and not your "made up one" which you described and we gave you the official definition numerous times in the thread.

Now repeat after me.

Wave dashing is an exploit.

 

[Jaedrik]

Finally, an intelligent post. It's well thought out and describes why you think what you do, and doesn't toss around insults like a GFAQSer. It doesn't change my opinion, but it's easily the best post for the ''not a glitch'' side.

My opinion comes in with the definitions. I read the whole thing, but I'll be pointing at the TLDR because my tablet sucks. The actual definition of exploit has nothing to do with the made-up one, and that definition can partially overlap with 'glitch.' Everybody draws the line between 'glitch' and 'exploit' in different places, and I drew mine in a way exploits don't exist in my opinion.

Arguing about opinions. Bleh. Why can't these people accept I'm not changing mine because they insult me?

So you are a relativist and subjectivist?
Well, why didn't you say so?
As for me and mine, there is an absolute and universal value which defines 'glitch' and 'exploit', not the sequence of words, that is, but the ideas. To say that your universal of 'glitch' is somehow superior to the general use is. . . astounding, frankly, and it will, as it has, cause massive confusion and strife amongst arguing peoples. So why not align your definition with the truer definition and give up this ridiculous game of rhetoric? It proves nothing for your 'side'.

 

[Vkrm]

To be honest wavedashing being a glitch or exploit is not relevant. What matters is what it added to the game. Plenty of other competitive games have had weird quirks that were not intended but get added to later installments once its decided that said exploit enhances an aspect of gameplay.

 

[Xcano]

Even if Sakurai tried to implement as few tech skills as possible players would learn how to abuse the physics engine to just invent more.


EDIT: Removed first two sentences due to false info

 

[mimgrim]

This. As much as I support L-cancelling, I can admit that it's not as deep of a mechanic as it could be.
I know people complain about it adding unneeded complexity, but I think it could do with more.

People would still say it is unneeded, even with the change I suggested. Because there would still never be a time not to do it when the attack connects.

The thing is, Smash is more of a in the air-based fighting game rather then being primarily done on the ground. So air combat should naturally have more of a risk VS reward thing going for it.

L-cancel as it is, ever so slightly, accomplishes that. But once you get it down the risk of going in the air and inputting a attack close to the ground becomes moot. However changing it to contact only would deepen it considerably. All because it helps create a constant risk VS reward case while putting an attack out in the air.

Thats not that much depth at all, and it doesn't add room for counter play.
I like the idea that not making contact causes the l cancel not to function. Especially because this would increase the power of spot dodging those attack instead of blocking.

Exactly. In Melee spot dodging has very limited uses and changing L-cancel in such a way would actually give players a reason to use it more.

I'm just pulling this out of thin air without considering the implications in the slightest,
What if begin hit during an L cancel caused you to take significantly more damage, or significantly increased knock back?

That feels too arbitrary, imo. And besides, successfully doing an L-cancel shouldn't be punished. I think just making it to where you can only L-cancel when you make contact with a move will add more then enough depth.

But what if we took L-cancel even further and allowed it to be used on every move that makes contact? Some very interesting things could occur that way.

 

[Empyrean]

But what if we took L-cancel even further and allowed it to be used on every move that makes contact? Some very interesting things could occur that way.

i.e. Marvel or PM turbo without having to press anything.

 

[Stryker]

What nobody ever realized all this time is that l-cancelling is actually present in Brawl. It is the master technique to stop tripping. If I recall my frame data correctly, it requires you to input the down taunt input (this works ONLY on the wiimote) about 16-17 times PRIOR to the tripping animations (compared to this, waveshining is for scrubs). If done correctly, your character will get the star power-up and Slippy will congratulate you for a job well done. However, if you miss even ONE input, then you lose your set and are disqualified from every future event. This is why Melee vets don't bother playing Brawl. **** is too hard and risky for their scrubby selves.

tl;dr;
Wiimote2gud.

Well, M2K plays both, but then again, I'm sure he pulls this advanced tech all the time to stop his tripping. Only he can be technically sound enough with his frame knowledge to be able to do tis.

 

[pitthekit]

I have a question?

If brawl did not have hitstun cancel...

Could you combo offstage well?

Because brawl does not have melees momentum system so I would think that some characters such as meta knight could never combo offstage while in the air.

Marth has a great air speed in brawl so he could follow up well offstage.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I have a question?

If brawl did not have hitstun cancel...

Could you combo offstage well?

Because brawl does not have melees momentum system so I would think that some characters such as meta knight could never combo offstage while in the air.

Marth has a great air speed in brawl so he could follow up well offstage.

Maybe with some characters, particularly Marth. He's the closest I can get to Melee with auto cancels, solid airspeed.

Like @ Chiroz said earlier, honestly, I wouldn't care about a lot in smash 4 if it at least had momentum. That was the major killer for me in Brawl since I'm heavily rush down oriented and I couldn't SH Nair with Fox for my life, so I play with characters like Marth, Wolf and Yoshi to compensate. Sonic's airspeed in General was trash, but it was good for his spin dash? I dunno.

I really feel that characters retaining momentum is an important aspect to smash, especially if it is a game with platforming elements.

 

[xandre]

"Finally, an intelligent post."

my 2 posts still win against everything you've said. if you don't go back and address them, nothing has changed.

and it doesn't matter if it's a glitch or an exploit. it harmed the integrity of the game less than metaknight's mere existence harmed the integrity of brawl. and many like it. debating what we want to call it is just a waste of time, because it goes to sakurai's intentions which we have established beyond question are irrelevant to the heart of this debate.

 

[Empyrean]

Well, M2K plays both, but then again, I'm sure he pulls this advanced tech all the time to stop his tripping. Only he can be technically sound enough with his frame knowledge to be able to do tis.

Does he play with a wiimote? Thank you, have a very nice day.

 

[Stryker]

Does he play with a wiimote? Thank you, have a very nice day.

Blast it, you've baited and outsmarted me.

*Shakes fist in your general direction*
Me right now at work

 

[Chiroz]

Maybe with some characters, particularly Marth. He's the closest I can get to Melee with auto cancels, solid airspeed.

Like @ Chiroz said earlier, honestly, I wouldn't care about a lot in smash 4 if it at least had momentum. That was the major killer for me in Brawl since I'm heavily rush down oriented and I couldn't SH Nair with Fox for my life, so I play with characters like Marth, Wolf and Yoshi to compensate. Sonic's airspeed in General was trash, but it was good for his spin dash? I dunno.

I really feel that characters retaining momentum is an important aspect to smash, especially if it is a game with platforming elements.

Yes, Sonic Spin Dash had a much better air speed, but it was still a different air speed than his grounded Spin Dash (so there was still no momentum being kept). There is a glitch though, I forgot its name (have not played Brawl in a long time) but its a Sonic specific tech, where if you jump right at the exact moment that you release your Spin Dash charge Sonic will actually jump WHILE retaining his "burst" of momentum from releasing his Spin Dash (sort of the same logic as Wavedashing, only in this case it seems like it is an actual error in the coding, as no other move has this kind of property). If you don't know what I am talking about try and look for videos of it.

Comparing regular Aerial Spin Dash to his Momentum-Retaining Aerial Spin Dash makes me sad about how good approaches and chasing could have been if momentum had been kept for all characters.

I think the lack of momentum was one of Captn. Falcon's major nerfs since his approach game was murdered. (that and the huge nerf his knee received). At the very least it killed how fun the character was to play for me, I just loved his speed.