The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[IsmaR]

Keep the discussion flame-free and don't resort to censor dodging or images to call people out.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'm personally not against any of the high-level techniques that were developed in Melee. However, I do think, for the sake of being thorough, that a distinction should always be made between "canonical" mechanics that were designed into the game and mechanics that, regardless of their popularity, are exploitations of the game's physics that have been "fanonized" and universally recognized among the community as a technique. Wavedashing is a legitimate technique among players, but it is not a canonical mechanic that was designed on purpose. It is, rather, a byproduct of directional air-dodging that has been given the name "wavedashing" by the fans.

And again, while I'm not against these "fanon" techniques, I don't expect Sakurai to really give them any weight or consideration. Would I LIKE him to? Sure. But I don't expect him to, and I don't fault him for trying to eliminate them, as he is the designer of the game and he has his own preconceptions for how the game was intended to be played that carry far more weight than any fan's perception ever could. If Sakurai wants to restrict the pros' toolset to techniques that were designed on purpose, he has every right to do that. People may hate him for it, but that's on him.

pretty much this.

I also think that some of them should be made canon, but honestly, I don't think I'd even want them all to be canon. I'd rather want new glitches and new methods to be found rather than going off of Melee's success only.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yes. If you haven't yet realized, you're an extreme bigot.
1.You still have no idea what he's saying, and you're just paraphrasing a passage you either skimmed or didn't comprehend. @ xandre provides numerous good points that you just drop on a whim, if this was an official debate then you would've been kicked out by now.

2.You don't even get the concept of his argument or any around you, seriously, you need comprehension skills. You argue art like you actually know the subject, which you clearly don't, and you're bagging on him for trying to get through to you, which obviously won't happen.

3.You act as if somebody in here has Sakurai's ****ing phone number. You don't know what he felt about wavedashing, we don't know if he even cared how it changed the way the game was played, the only thing we know is that he removed it to lower the skill ceiling, which was basically his entire focus of brawl. Heck, even if he did think that wave dashing would've been a bad thing there's no proof that he would still think it now
Besides, you clearly ignored this


4. Pretty much everyone else summarizes it for me.





Now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to leave this to someone who cares enough to consistently reply to you talking from your ***.

Don't bother replying to this now, someone will be here shortly with the actual argument.

Why so serious? You sound awful upset over an internet argument. And you still don't understand me. You keep accusing me of hating Wavedashing or me claiming to know Sakurai better then anybody else. I don't and I'm not. Point out where I supposedly say those things and I'll clarify. I've already explained I'm not the best at getting my words out.

It can be argued that sakurai felt wave dashing had a place in melee, if you dont want to go as far as saying he liked the mechanic. Most people don't know that there are multiple versions of melee that fix various bugs. The pal version actually had subtle balance changes, but every version of melee has wave dashing.

We can't proove who changed it. The last time it came out, not counting player's choice, was 05/31/02. I heard Wavedashing was discovered in 02, but when? If it was only a month Sakurai could of not had enough time to know about it or to even remove it. There's a significant possibility that there's no way Sakurai could of changed it.

-removed, don't censor dodge-



You still keep calling Wavedash a glitch, despite everything everyone has told you to prove otherwise. You refuse to accept something like a corner case or exploit as real despite both being actual things.

You truly are one of the bigger idiots in the world.




Wrong. If it's a hated game that means less money which definitely means it was a wrong choice. I know **** about art but if it is almost universally disliked by people then it was the wrong choice, no two ways around it.





Why does it seem like I am the only person in the whole ****ing world t think all 3 Smash games are equally competitive.



Prove it.



This would be awesome and hilarious at the same time. But first the Wii-U and 3DS have to get hacked first, and that doesn't look like it's gonna be anytime soon.

I'm not allowed to think this? I apologize to everybody who hates my guts over a difference in opinion. Everybody sets the bar between glitch and exploit in a different place. I choose to set it in a way that there are no exploits. Look at Super Metroid for example. There's Spinesparking, an actual move. It's like perfect shielding. Then there's infinite bomb jumping. You'd probably call it an exploit. Nope, they show you how in the intro if you wait long enough. Also like perfect shielding. Then there's Mockball. It lets you get into areas without the speedbooster, a normally required item. There are two spots in the game that you can get past with this. One spot is a complete game-changer as it gives you the super missiles before the boss you're supposed to get them from. To do it, you utilize a physics quirk that lets you go at running speed in morphball. You'd call it a exploit, but the SM fanbase overall, last I checked, calls it a glitch. Different people believe different things, it's all opinion. And I'd wager that the SM fanbase would agree with on Wavedashing.

The author is always right. Might not get as much sales, but he's right. Do you really expect me to back down off of this?

I ment that competitively, Brawl is worse because of balance. It's still just as competitive.

I'll do some digging later. It'd take me two seconds to prove it if GFAQS's archives went back that far.

The 3DS is actually hacked somewhat. Negative value weapons are a big pain when they come around in KIU. Thankfully there's only like ten ever made and they can't be streetpassed.

Renji,

Sometimes i do wonder why do i keep purchasing smash when the creator can careless about my purchase since i'm about of the hardcore crowd that melee was targeted too. sigh

Meet the stake-chair argument.

The man brings up a good point. However, I think with a game, it's more than a painting. A game is more like utilitarian art. Like a beautifully designed office chair. Over the years, LOTS of people began using this chair as a sort of skateboard. People even organized tournaments to see who could do the coolest tricks on their office chair in a skate park. The office chair was never made to be used in such a way, but it's awesome that it can be used that way. However, the next time the designer designs a chair, nobody should expect him to make his office chair more aerodynamic, because that was never a goal of his in the first place. The designer is welcome to embrace this divergent path and purposefully make his next chair a chair-skateboard, but nobody should get angry at him because he decides to make another beautiful chair that happens to not be as good of a skateboard.

Why should he continue to support an audience he never ment to target? Just throw away your hopes for SSB4 already, I can guarantee that it, or any future SSB, will never meet your expectations.

 

[mimgrim]

We can't proove who changed it. The last time it came out, not counting player's choice, was 05/31/02. I heard Wavedashing was discovered in 02, but when? If it was only a month Sakurai could of not had enough time to know about it or to even remove it. There's a significant possibility that there's no way Sakurai could of changed it.

Most people believe it was April 2002 by Toadbanjoconker however I think it was actually discovered January 2002 by Ultimate Melee.

It was in January that it was discovered.

I'm not allowed to think this? I apologize to everybody who hates my guts over a difference in opinion. Everybody sets the bar between glitch and exploit in a different place. I choose to set it in a way that there are no exploits. Look at Super Metroid for example. There's Spinesparking, an actual move. It's like perfect shielding. Then there's infinite bomb jumping. You'd probably call it an exploit. Nope, they show you how in the intro if you wait long enough. Also like perfect shielding. Then there's Mockball. It lets you get into areas without the speedbooster, a normally required item. There are two spots in the game that you can get past with this. One spot is a complete game-changer as it gives you the super missiles before the boss you're supposed to get them from. To do it, you utilize a physics quirk that lets you go at running speed in morphball. You'd call it a exploit, but the SM fanbase overall, last I checked, calls it a glitch. Different people believe different things, it's all opinion. And I'd wager that the SM fanbase would agree with on Wavedashing.

Ok, time to get literal here.

glitch
gliCH/Submit
informal
noun
1.
a sudden, usually temporary malfunction or irregularity of equipment.
"a draft version was lost in a computer glitch"
verb
1.
suffer a sudden malfunction or irregularity.
"her job involves troubleshooting when systems glitch"

ex·ploit
verb
ikˈsploit/
1.
make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
"500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology"
synonyms: utilize, harness, use, make use of, turn/put to good use, make the most of, capitalize on, benefit from;

Which definition is Wavedash closer to being? Exploit.

A real glitch is like the Black Hole in Melee or playing as Master Hand in Melee. Wavedashing is an exploit, that is a fact and can be proven as such, just as I did.

The author is always right. Might not get as much sales, but he's right. Do you really expect me to back down off of this?

No. The author is making a product and is publicizing that product and is selling. This makes the author very much able to be wrong. Because dissatisfied consumers = less money = fail product = author was wrong with said product. The majority of the consumers are always right, not the author. That's freaking common sense, c'mon.

I'll do some digging later. It'd take me two seconds to prove it if GFAQS's archives went back that far.

Lol Gfaqs.

 

[Muster]

Why so serious? You sound awful upset over an internet argument. And you still don't understand me. You keep accusing me of hating Wavedashing or me claiming to know Sakurai better then anybody else. I don't and I'm not. Point out where I supposedly say those things and I'll clarify. I've already explained I'm not the best at getting my words out.

If you're not the best at getting your words out, then don't argue with someone until you are. Simple as that.

Also, you're assuming i'm serious about this whole thing. Lol.

And on examples of you assuming what Sakurai wants.

Wouldn't you advertise the new Wavedashing if you were Sakurai?

Assuming Sakurai would advertise wavedashing because that's what you'd do.

He's obviously holding off on Ridley to troll the fanbase.

He's obviously talking about just the number.

Saying Sakurai is "obviously" doing something or addressing something when that is not the case in the slightest.

Meh. Sakurai wants the metagame to be the basics taken to extremes. Isn't there enough techniques already?

Assuming Sakurai's ideals about the game and its metagame.

Sakurai doesn't care about the 1%. Why are you more important then the casuals that make up the most of the fanbase?

Assuming that Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive community, despite him making efforts to speed up sm4sh for a medium between casual and hardcore.

Problem is, that's not how Sakurai wanted it.

Assuming what Sakurai wants despite the possibility of changing ideals, effectively talking for Sakurai.

Why would somebody be assuming all these things, if they don't think they know Sakurai? Either that's your mindset or you're just assuming for the sake of your side of the argument. Either way your arguments are bull****, and it's a drain on the topic as a whole. Also, you ignored half the argument, just like last time.

Oh yeah, Project B

 

[Ulevo]

Wavedashing is not a glitch. It's just an exploitation of natural mechanics.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Why should he continue to support an audience he never ment to target? Just throw away your hopes for SSB4 already, I can guarantee that it, or any future SSB, will never meet your expectations.

do you think Smash will be worked on by Sakurai forever? that won't happen.
Do you think it'll always stay in the same direction? Possible either way.

 

[Artsy Omni]

Was Wavedashing 100% intended by Sakurai? No. It simply got left in.

What exactly is your point? =P It's still not a glitch. It's just a utilization of a perfectly legitimate chain of events that is in no way contrary to how the game should work. Wavedashing is just a term that we have attached to "air-dodging towards the ground from an extremely low altitude." It's just that this particular chain of events has been popularized to such a degree that it is now a de facto "technique."

It's no different than if a person jumping three times in a row was somehow extraordinarily beneficial to a player, and people started calling it "tripling" or something. There's nothing illegitimate about jumping three times in a row. Nothing about the physics engine is broken in the process. Likewise, there's nothing illegitimate about air dodging into the ground. It's not a glitch. It's just an exploitation of perfectly legitimate actions in such a way that becomes beneficial to the player.

Dash dancing is done because it confuses people. Sakurai never "intended" for people to just run back and forth aimlessly, but people do it anyway, and it's a common enough practice that it has been given a name. Dash dancing isn't a glitch, it's just something that people started doing because it helps them.

By the same token, the ability that we know as "wavedashing" was never removed, because it isn't an ability in and of itself. It is a byproduct of 2 perfectly legitimate abilities. One of those abilities was removed, and wavedashing was made impossible as a result. But that doesn't take away from the legitimacy of wavedashing as a technique. Sakurai took out directional air dodging because he knew that wavedashing was a perfectly legitimate byproduct of air dodging, and he wanted to even the playing field between players. But don't make the mistake of calling wavedashing a "glitch."

A glitch is being able to play as Master Hand. It's an illegitimate occurrence caused by an oversight in programming. Wavedashing is just a normal chain of events that people began utilizing as a de facto "move."

 

[mimgrim]

By the same token, the ability that we know as "wavedashing" was never removed, because it isn't an ability in and of itself. It is a byproduct of 2 perfectly legitimate abilities. One of those abilities was removed, and wavedashing was made impossible as a result.

While I agree with everything you said, I just want to point something.

The Brawl E3 demo had a form of Wavedashing even though the dodge was changed. It was still done from the air but was done through attacks instead of the dodge system. But for whatever reason was taken out of the final product.

 

[IsmaR]

It's because the demos had a build similar to Melee, since they were just for demonstration purposes.

 

[mimgrim]

It's because the demos had a build similar to Melee, since they were just for demonstration purposes.

I was mostly just getting to the fact that a Melee air dodge doesn't have to be required for WDing. .-.

 

[Stryker]

I'm not allowed to think this? I apologize to everybody who hates my guts over a difference in opinion. Everybody sets the bar between glitch and exploit in a different place. I choose to set it in a way that there are no exploits.

No, actually, you aren't. There are standardized definition for both, not grey area. That's like saying everyone sets the bar for apples and kiwi differently, and you are calling a granny smith a kiwi just because it's green.

Just throw away your hopes for SSB4 already, I can guarantee that it, or any future SSB, will never meet your expectations.

Wow, man. You really need to stop talking out your ass. So many things wrong with this specific statement that it should never had been typed in the first place. You literally cannot guarantee anything of the sort.

 

[Renji64]

Renji,

Meet the stake-chair argument.

Why should he continue to support an audience he never ment to target? Just throw away your hopes for SSB4 already, I can guarantee that it, or any future SSB, will never meet your expectations.[/quote]
I lowered them after brawl i know it won't be the amazing game i thought it would be.

 

[xandre]

guys, i've been lancerstaff this whole time.

jk.

 

[Stryker]

guys, i've been lancerstaff this whole time.
jk.

Made my entire night.

 

[josh bones]

Is lancer still trolling?

 

[mimgrim]

Is lancer still trolling?

Ya' know, that would actually explain a lot.

 

[Stryker]

I don't want to revive this thread in the wrong way, as it's been filled with some silly stuff but i did want to discuss wavedashing as a tech from a game design perspective, and why it is so important within the Melee/Project M. Also, i wanted to quickly address the complaint of the input of a wavedash and why it's really not complex at all. To do that, we need to start with wavelanding.

Input
Wavelanding is the product of airdashing into the ground at very low heights to produce a slide.

The biggest complaint I've heard about wavedashing is the input. While I can certainly agree that it's a strange input, it does make sense within the game physics, and is only complicated due to the extensive use for it. It's complex because you apply wavelanding in a very specific and difficult to time manner in order to produce a wavedash.
Wavelanding is the simplified version of wavedashing, and the input is not too difficult. Simply one button and a direction on the stick, timed correctly. (Smash asks you to do that all the time.)
Where the "Complexity" comes in, is with the wavedash. But the thing is, it's not really much more complex. You are literally pressing the same buttons.

Waveland
Full Hop>Wait til you are close to the ground>Airdash in the correct direction.

Wavedash
Short Hop>Airdash in the correct direction as soon as your character leaves the ground.

As for the controls being intuitve, which I've seen complaints about, the natural progression of the game demands that you would naturally learn wavelanding first (likely due to accidently airdashing into the ground). Upon seeing this, and potentially doing to a few times, it seems pretty logical to me to see if you can do it on your way up rather than on your way down.
As it was not a mechanic that was intended from the get go, it was not assigned a specific button combination. It is the interaction of a mechanic that /was/ given a button and the physics system.

Why do people use it?
Wavedashing helps create combos, which are one of the central points of a fighting game. It does this by moving your character to move quickly without locking yourself in a dash.
I know this sounds like so little when you already have plenty of options out of dashing (Dacus, Dash attack, SHFFL'd ariel)
But in a game that is about options, the more the better. Specifically, being able to throw out tilts and other smashes as a way to continue your combo.

Why do we need it though, we can combo without it just fine, why is it such a huge thing?
In one word, creativity. Something that smash provides better than any other fighter, in my opinion.
Playing other fighters, you are more restricted to combos that are already implemented into the game.
With smash due to both the physics system and significantly larger stages, it allows for many different options to combo into each other rather than only being able to combo one move into one other specific move into one other move.

Wavedashing gives the game an even bigger shove towards move creativity. With more ways to connect attacks, you have significantly more options for mixups, and are able to followup on some attacks that you would not normally be able to. It allows even more combo potential in a game that already allow lots of creativity with its combos.

To me, the creativity of smash is something that has defined it from other games. Smash feels like you controlling the game, rather than just memorizing specific inputs to do at specific times. Wavedashing is something that really pushes the creativity into the realm of amazing. I'd like to think that is why the community fell in love with wavedashing.

Join me next time when I discuss why I think L-Cancelling is a beautiful thing and not just an arbitrary APM increase. >.>
Also, My apologies if I'm just repeating things that have been said a hundred times before. Though I get the impression that the whole thread is kinda centered around that kind of thing.

 

[pitthekit]

I don't want to revive this thread in the wrong way, as it's been filled with some silly stuff but i did want to discuss wavedashing as a tech from a game design perspective, and why it is so important within the Melee/Project M. Also, i wanted to quickly address the complaint of the input of a wavedash and why it's really not complex at all. To do that, we need to start with wavelanding.

Input
Wavelanding is the product of airdashing into the ground at very low heights to produce a slide.

The biggest complaint I've heard about wavedashing is the input. While I can certainly agree that it's a strange input, it does make sense within the game physics, and is only complicated due to the extensive use for it. It's complex because you apply wavelanding in a very specific and difficult to time manner in order to produce a wavedash.
Wavelanding is the simplified version of wavedashing, and the input is not too difficult. Simply one button and a direction on the stick, timed correctly. (Smash asks you to do that all the time.)
Where the "Complexity" comes in, is with the wavedash. But the thing is, it's not really much more complex. You are literally pressing the same buttons.

Waveland
Full Hop>Wait til you are close to the ground>Airdash in the correct direction.

Wavedash
Short Hop>Airdash in the correct direction as soon as your character leaves the ground.

As for the controls being intuitve, which I've seen complaints about, the natural progression of the game demands that you would naturally learn wavelanding first (likely due to accidently airdashing into the ground). Upon seeing this, and potentially doing to a few times, it seems pretty logical to me to see if you can do it on your way up rather than on your way down.
As it was not a mechanic that was intended from the get go, it was not assigned a specific button combination. It is the interaction of a mechanic that /was/ given a button and the physics system.

Why do people use it?
Wavedashing helps create combos, which are one of the central points of a fighting game. It does this by moving your character to move quickly without locking yourself in a dash.
I know this sounds like so little when you already have plenty of options out of dashing (Dacus, Dash attack, SHFFL'd ariel)
But in a game that is about options, the more the better. Specifically, being able to throw out tilts and other smashes as a way to continue your combo.

Why do we need it though, we can combo without it just fine, why is it such a huge thing?
In one word, creativity. Something that smash provides better than any other fighter, in my opinion.
Playing other fighters, you are more restricted to combos that are already implemented into the game.
With smash due to both the physics system and significantly larger stages, it allows for many different options to combo into each other rather than only being able to combo one move into one other specific move into one other move.

Wavedashing gives the game an even bigger shove towards move creativity. With more ways to connect attacks, you have significantly more options for mixups, and are able to followup on some attacks that you would not normally be able to. It allows even more combo potential in a game that already allow lots of creativity with its combos.

To me, the creativity of smash is something that has defined it from other games. Smash feels like you controlling the game, rather than just memorizing specific inputs to do at specific times. Wavedashing is something that really pushes the creativity into the realm of amazing. I'd like to think that is why the community fell in love with wavedashing.

Join me next time when I discuss why I think L-Cancelling is a beautiful thing and not just an arbitrary APM increase. >.>
Also, My apologies if I'm just repeating things that have been said a hundred times before. Though I get the impression that the whole thread is kinda centered around that kind of thing.

Agreed but l cancel could be hard to prove.

Why have l cancel when you can just lower all the aerial values by x number.

Why have l cancel when it gives you choice like
A) do you want more ending lag? Don't press l
B) do you want less ending lag? Press l

B will always be the correct answer as lower ending lag = your next imput faster.

Although I have heard that altering your shield density could create hit lag with aerials hitting the shield therefore making the player possibly mess up an l cancel. Although a frame perfect player would not fall to such a trick.

I am okay with l cancelling because it just becomes muscle memory after a lot of practise but I can see people not wanting to deal with l cancel.

Although peoples consistencies with a successfull l cancel could tell you just how long someone played smash...maybe.

Anyone here know if there is a correlation between successfully l cancel imputs and tech skill or how long they played the game?
(I know some people get rusty over time intervals)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Agreed but l cancel could be hard to prove.

Why have l cancel when you can just lower all the aerial values by x number.

Why have l cancel when it gives you choice like
A) do you want more ending lag? Don't press l
B) do you want less ending lag? Press l

B will always be the correct answer as lower ending lag = your next imput faster.

Although I have heard that altering your shield density could create hit lag with aerials hitting the shield therefore making the player possibly mess up an l cancel. Although a frame perfect player would not fall to such a trick.

I am okay with l cancelling because it just becomes muscle memory after a lot of practise but I can see people not wanting to deal with l cancel.

Although peoples consistencies with a successfull l cancel could tell you just how long someone played smash...maybe.

Anyone here know if there is a correlation between successfully l cancel imputs and tech skill or how long they played the game?
(I know some people get rusty over time intervals)

L-canceling should be in order to make landing mid aerial look somewhat realistic. It would be weird if Link Daired Into the ground and he recovered without the animation being sped up somehow, same applies to every aerial. Then again it is possible to just get new animations, but I'm fine with L-canceling as it is.

It would be cool if they balanced aerials with L-canceling with potential benefits and negatives from choosing when or not to do it, like in Smash 64 with Pikachu when you don't get the second hit if the Dair if you L-cancel. Same thing in Brawl when you auto cancel the Dair.

 

[Empyrean]

Didn't z-cancelling in 64 cancel all landing lag? We need that in Smash 4 instead. That way, there would be no more need for l-cancelling. Win-win situation.

 

[Ulevo]

Didn't z-cancelling in 64 cancel all landing lag? We need that in Smash 4 instead. That way, there would be no more need for l-cancelling. Win-win situation.

Not exactly a win-win when it detracts from the game depth by removing counterplay to certain character approaches. 64 was great, and it was balanced because it had a very small roster and moves with frames built around its design, but I don't think Z-Cancelling is superior to L-Cancelling in terms of overall benefit.

 

[Stryker]

Agreed but l cancel could be hard to prove.

Why have l cancel when you can just lower all the aerial values by x number.

Why have l cancel when it gives you choice like
A) do you want more ending lag? Don't press l
B) do you want less ending lag? Press l

B will always be the correct answer as lower ending lag = your next imput faster.

Although I have heard that altering your shield density could create hit lag with aerials hitting the shield therefore making the player possibly mess up an l cancel. Although a frame perfect player would not fall to such a trick.

I am okay with l cancelling because it just becomes muscle memory after a lot of practise but I can see people not wanting to deal with l cancel.

Although peoples consistencies with a successfull l cancel could tell you just how long someone played smash...maybe.

Anyone here know if there is a correlation between successfully l cancel imputs and tech skill or how long they played the game?
(I know some people get rusty over time intervals)

Ah awesome. Lots of cool stuff here to address. :D
See I keep seeing this whole argument of "I must cancel, I have no choice."
So, firstly, I want to bring up QTE's (Quick Time events) from other games. Press X not to die. Is there any point where you would want to not press x? (The answer is "Only if you want to see the death animation for that scene)Now I'm not saying QTE's are good for games. Just that this kind of thing exists.

But to put this into better perspective I'm going to use the original Donkey Kong Country.
Cancelling you roll with your jump in DKC is pretty much the greatest thing ever. It takes technical timing not to **** up and it almost doubles your jump length. It also requires more APM.

As a vet DKC player, I literally use Roll cancelled jumping over normal jumping because of the increased control and speed it gives and the fact that you have enough air control that if you overshoot something, you can control yourself back. Even better, you can choose what point you actually cancel your roll so as to allow for extremely precise jumps.
Does this mean that normal jumping should be taken out and replaced with nothing but auto roll jumping? Nah.

The thing I think is missed here is that in order for a game to have depth, you need to give your players room to grow. You need to give them things to learn.
Sure you can get through DKC without roll jumping, and you can play smash without l cancelling. But after you've played with game mechanics for a while, you begin to experiment and learn.
L-cancelling may seem arbitrary, but if it was taken from the game, that would be one less reward for the player.
You start the game not being able to connect combos for tons of reason, one of them being end lag.
But you can't tell me that your first time pulling off a sick combo with L-Cancels you didn't feel like a beast. You wouldn't get that if there were it didn't exist. You would just think it was normal.

Also, think about the casuals!
L-cancelling is provides a way for the game to stay at a casual speed for people who don't know it and to increase speed and combo options for those who want to put the time and effort in to get better. Remember that smash was made for casuals, and I'm sure casual players don't care if they're moves are cancelled upon landing. Only competitive players do. I don't think the game would make as much sense to new/casual players if the end lag for all their ariels vanished but other moves still had it. It just wouldn't look right.

Now, for the thing you probably don't want to hear.
It helps separate the good players from the great players. Now, I know that this isn't something people like. But there essentially needs to be things that you can learn that will make you better than others. It would not be fair to a player who has put in hundreds of hours practicing to be beaten by a new player simply because there are no mechanics that can be used to gain advantage over your opponent.
There needs to be things that you can learn to be better than others.

Above all else though I want to focus on something I mentioned before about smash, and (next to creativity) is one of my favourite things about smash.
You cannot accidentally be good at smash.
With smash, the basics can be done with mashing buttons, it's actually quite hard to "accidentally" L cancel. You can't really just accidentally wavedash. You have to do it on purpose.

 

[Empyrean]

Not exactly a win-win when it detracts from the game depth by removing counterplay to certain character approaches. 64 was great, and it was balanced because it had a very small roster and moves with frames built around its design, but I don't think Z-Cancelling is superior to L-Cancelling in terms of overall benefit.

I was being kinda sarcastic. I prefer l-cancelling myself, and I think that having zero lag would be even less welcomed than half the lag reduction people are already complaining about.

 

[JediLink]

So, firstly, I want to bring up QTE's (Quick Time events) from other games. Press X not to die. Is there any point where you would want to not press x? (The answer is "Only if you want to see the death animation for that scene)Now I'm not saying QTE's are good for games. Just that this kind of thing exists

It's nearly universally agreed that "Press X to not die" is bad game design, so you just defeated your own point.

But to put this into better perspective I'm going to use the original Donkey Kong Country.
Cancelling you roll with your jump in DKC is pretty much the greatest thing ever. It takes technical timing not to **** up and it almost doubles your jump length. It also requires more APM.

As a vet DKC player, I literally use Roll cancelled jumping over normal jumping because of the increased control and speed it gives and the fact that you have enough air control that if you overshoot something, you can control yourself back. Even better, you can choose what point you actually cancel your roll so as to allow for extremely precise jumps.

Does this mean that normal jumping should be taken out and replaced with nothing but auto roll jumping? Nah.

The thing I think is missed here is that in order for a game to have depth, you need to give your players room to grow. You need to give them things to learn.
Sure you can get through DKC without roll jumping, and you can play smash without l cancelling. But after you've played with game mechanics for a while, you begin to experiment and learn.

I'm not just a big fan of fighting games, but also character action games like Devil May Cry, so I know all about the value of having a high skill ceiling, and I am one of the people that will berate DmC for making everything too easy. In a way I do understand your point.

However, you've got to remember that even if you take away L-cancelling, there's still tons and tons and tons of advanced techs you need to know. Wavedashing, DI, SDI, waveshining, pivoting, B-reverses, DACUS, power shielding, sweetspots, etc. Adding L-cancelling on top of all of that is just overkill, and no sane developer would have ever thought to add something as redundant as having to press a button to reduce landing lag if it weren't already in Smash 64.

L-cancelling may seem arbitrary, but if it was taken from the game, that would be one less reward for the player.
You start the game not being able to connect combos for tons of reason, one of them being end lag.
But you can't tell me that your first time pulling off a sick combo with L-Cancels you didn't feel like a beast. You wouldn't get that if there were it didn't exist. You would just think it was normal

And they should have made it so that you have to do a 360 with your stick before you can jump, too. Once you can do it, you'll have this great feeling of satisfaction because you can finally jump properly! But instead, jumping just feels normal. We were robbed, I tell ya.

L-cancelling being rewarding is your opinion, and it's one that I don't necessarily agree with. I would personally compare it with having to mash buttons to open doors in games like God of War. It's just an extra thing you have to do for no other reason than because it's there.

L-cancelling is provides a way for the game to stay at a casual speed for people who don't know it and to increase speed and combo options for those who want to put the time and effort in to get better. Remember that smash was made for casuals, and I'm sure casual players don't care if they're moves are cancelled upon landing. Only competitive players do. I don't think the game would make as much sense to new/casual players if the end lag for all their ariels vanished but other moves still had it. It just wouldn't look right.

Yeah, um, no. There's nothing weird about Link trying to pull his sword out of the ground quickly during a fight. No one's asking for no endlag, just reduced endlag.

Casuals are going to be playing slower anyway because they're not going to be wavedashing, dash dancing, short hopping or teching, so it's not like having less endlag is going to suddenly make the game OMG2FAST4ME. And, you even said yourself that casual players don't care if their moves are cancelled upon landing, you again you defeated your own point.

Now, for the thing you probably don't want to hear.
It helps separate the good players from the great players.

If, say, Mango and Mew2King sit down for a game, they've both practiced the hell out of L-cancelling so they're both going to be able to do it with 100% consistency. Oh, look! They're still on even ground. You've just made them both do hours more work, and you've achieved absolutely nothing in terms of separating skill levels.

The only separation that L-cancelling causes is between players who are already in the competitive scene, and potential new players who are trying to learn. It's nothing but an arbitrary barrier of entry.

Now, I know that this isn't something people like. But there essentially needs to be things that you can learn that will make you better than others. It would not be fair to a player who has put in hundreds of hours practicing to be beaten by a new player simply because there are no mechanics that can be used to gain advantage over your opponent

Are you seriously trying to imply that making L-cancelling automatic will mean that people who don't even know what a tier list is are going to start beating people who have been playing Smash all their lives?

Reminder: Melee is an extremely deep game, and it has a lot of things to thank for that. L-cancelling is not one of those things.

 

[Stryker]

It's nearly universally agreed that "Press X to not die" is bad game design, so you just defeated your own point.


I'm not just a big fan of fighting games, but also character action games like Devil May Cry, so I know all about the value of having a high skill ceiling, and I am one of the people that will berate DmC for making everything too easy. In a way I do understand your point.

However, you've got to remember that even if you take away L-cancelling, there's still tons and tons and tons of advanced techs you need to know. Wavedashing, DI, SDI, waveshining, pivoting, B-reverses, DACUS, power shielding, sweetspots, etc. Adding L-cancelling on top of all of that is just overkill, and no sane developer would have ever thought to add something as redundant as having to press a button to reduce landing lag if it weren't already in Smash 64.


And they should have made it so that you have to do a 360 with your stick before you can jump, too. Once you can do it, you'll have this great feeling of satisfaction because you can finally jump properly! But instead, jumping just feels normal. We were robbed, I tell ya.

L-cancelling being rewarding is your opinion, and it's one that I don't necessarily agree with. I would personally compare it with having to mash buttons to open doors in games like God of War. It's just an extra thing you have to do for no other reason than because it's there.


Yeah, um, no. There's nothing weird about Link trying to pull his sword out of the ground quickly during a fight. No one's asking for no endlag, just reduced endlag.

Casuals are going to be playing slower anyway because they're not going to be wavedashing, dash dancing, short hopping or teching, so it's not like having less endlag is going to suddenly make the game OMG2FAST4ME. And, you even said yourself that casual players don't care if their moves are cancelled upon landing, you again you defeated your own point.


If, say, Mango and Mew2King sit down for a game, they've both practiced the hell out of L-cancelling so they're both going to be able to do it with 100% consistency. Oh, look! They're still on even ground. You've just made them both do hours more work, and you've achieved absolutely nothing in terms of separating skill levels.

The only separation that L-cancelling causes is between players who are already in the competitive scene, and potential new players who are trying to learn. It's nothing but an arbitrary barrier of entry.


Are you seriously trying to imply that making L-cancelling automatic will mean that people who don't even know what a tier list is are going to start beating people who have been playing Smash all their lives?

Reminder: Melee is an extremely deep game, and it has a lot of things to thank for that. L-cancelling is not one of those things.

Good examples of QTE's in games. Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain. Have a look. They do a great job at making the "Press X not to die" Wonderfully engaging. David Cage is a very smart game dev.

As I'm actually half decent at debate, I also wanted to point out "There's nothing weird about Link trying to pull his sword out of the ground quickly during a fight. No one's asking for no endlag, just reduced endlag."
This is a good counter point. And correct for sure. Originally I was considering other ariels that would look strange with less end lag, but this is a good example of one that would make sense.
But compare it to every move other than ariels. All your other moves still have endlag. In order for it to match up, wouldn't they need to reduce endlag on all attacks? That's why I think it would look weird. Link can pull his sword out of being plunged into stone, but he still can't move it fast enough to not have end lag on other moves.

The jump example is a little extreme, but not knowing how to L-Cancel does not keep you from performing your moves properly. It stops your character from connecting combos. It doesn't stop you from learning the basics, it allows for there to be another step up once you are comfortable with the basics.

That statement was two points in one. The visual strangeness that would accompany only your air attacks having less end lag, and the fact that it seems to purposely keep the game slower for those who don't know it. The don't care if they are finishing air attacks faster, but they may think its weird if it's only their air attacks that finish quickly and nothing else. You also have to think about designer intent behind the mechanic (I know I know, too many people speak for Sakurai in this thread already) But it certainly wasn't put in there without some reasion. It slows down the game for people who aren't familiar with the concept or can't press a button with the right timing. Maybe it was because they wanted to overload the game with AT's so that you could just practice the ones you like. (No that's not actually likely)

In reality, in the early development of the melee competitive scene, didn't some players get incredibly ahead only because of their knowledge of L-cancelling? I know this is moot now, because we have learned every single AT and now you just have to go find a list of them and practice your fingers off. But when this game was first being really played, this was a tool that was in the game that did allow players to hold advantage over on another. It was one of the many avenues that you could choose to develop yourself as a player and help define your playstyle.
Again this is moot now due to the sheer force in which we stormed the smash bro's universe and dissected every single detail and frame. But to be honest, I don't think that the devs expected that to happen. (Again, can't speak for them, but it was aimed at casuals, who don't really do that sort of thing.)
On the flip side, Is it possible that they didn't anticapte the game having as many AT's as it does, and thus they didn't believe that having L-cancelling would be "too much" but rather thought their game wouldn't have enough tech skill available for players who wanted to learn it. (This kind of goes against the idea that it was aimed at casual players, but still something to consider.

Alright, up and away from the specualtion now.
I'm saying it wouldn't be fair to those who have put in hundred of hours learning to L-cancel if suddenly it just magically happened for every player. You complete invalidate a large portion of something that the person has invested lots of time into learning and just giving it away. "You? You had to work to connect your combos. You had to put in practice and learn timings. Now, you are awesome and can combo amazingly because of all that hard work you put in. But that was too hard, so we're just going to make it so that new players don't need to put in half of the hard work you did to be just as good at comboing"
Yeah, I can see why that would upset people.

M2K and Mango have earned the right to be equals by mastering the same techniques. I think that's a good reason to put them on equal ground. Now, if someone who knew everything except couldn't L-Cancel was put up against M2K, then the clear separation of skill would allow M2K to win.

So, do you think that the only reason that L-Cancelling was added was due to Z-cancelling in 64? Do you have the same opinion of Z-Cancelling? (This ties into the point of people taking time to learn things, and the developers being nice enough not to just throw all that knowledge out.)

Also, what about DMC makes it to easy? The fact that you can senselessly mash buttons? I've played a few and they always seemed more like.. i dunno a spectacle game. Like you are just supposed to enjoy your character pulling off these silly and badass looking moves without having to put the same work as you do into a fighting game. The positioning is done for you, and the lots of basic badass combos can be done just by pushing one or two buttons repeatedly. But man do they look awesome.

(Also, I feel like we've directed this thread away from the flaming and anger and back towards healthy discussion. Yay!)

 

[LancerStaff]

It was in January that it was discovered.





Ok, time to get literal here.

glitch
gliCH/Submit
informal
noun
1.
a sudden, usually temporary malfunction or irregularity of equipment.
"a draft version was lost in a computer glitch"
verb
1.
suffer a sudden malfunction or irregularity.
"her job involves troubleshooting when systems glitch"

ex·ploit
verb
ikˈsploit/
1.
make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
"500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology"
synonyms: utilize, harness, use, make use of, turn/put to good use, make the most of, capitalize on, benefit from;

Which definition is Wavedash closer to being? Exploit.

A real glitch is like the Black Hole in Melee or playing as Master Hand in Melee. Wavedashing is an exploit, that is a fact and can be proven as such, just as I did.



No. The author is making a product and is publicizing that product and is selling. This makes the author very much able to be wrong. Because dissatisfied consumers = less money = fail product = author was wrong with said product. The majority of the consumers are always right, not the author. That's freaking common sense, c'mon.



Lol Gfaqs.

January, eh? How long does disk production usually last for something like Melee? Two or three months? Just a guess, but that'd be only two months to find the glitch.

Simply put, Sakurai hasn't said if if it's irregular or not. Who made you the king of deciding if something is a glitch or exploit? And by that definition of exploit, everything is an exploit. I can 'exploit' jumping. I can 'exploit' a glitch. It is not a fact because that definition of exploit can be used to describe anything. Seriously, you didn't think I'd say this?

No, the author did the wrong thing to get the most money. What if he's not interested in money? Is the kid drawing pictures and giving them to muma for free wrong?

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

If you're not the best at getting your words out, then don't argue with someone until you are. Simple as that.

Also, you're assuming i'm serious about this whole thing. Lol.

And on examples of you assuming what Sakurai wants.

Assuming Sakurai would advertise wavedashing because that's what you'd do.

Saying Sakurai is "obviously" doing something or addressing something when that is not the case in the slightest.

Assuming Sakurai's ideals about the game and its metagame.

Assuming that Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive community, despite him making efforts to speed up sm4sh for a medium between casual and hardcore.

Assuming what Sakurai wants despite the possibility of changing ideals, effectively talking for Sakurai.

Why would somebody be assuming all these things, if they don't think they know Sakurai? Either that's your mindset or you're just assuming for the sake of your side of the argument. Either way your arguments are bull****, and it's a drain on the topic as a whole. Also, you ignored half the argument, just like last time.

Oh yeah, Project B

Lax people don't usually toss around insults and tack on 'lol's in arguments in my experience. But whatever.

I think the 'obvious' things are obviously obvious. If you disagree, go ahead and disprove them. I'll gladly withdraw them if you do.

If he wanted Wavedashing, he would of left it in Brawl. It clashed with his ideal smash. Why leave it in Melee? There's a million possibilities as to why. You can't disprove all of them because we don't know. I made an assumption because that's all we can do here. Why is yours right and mine wrong?

To clarify, ''Doesn't care about the 1% as much as the other 99%.'' And Brawl's issues can be felt by the 99% too. So really, that change is for everybody.

I'll be back later or next week or something to continue. I might be gone a while.

 

[Stryker]

(Also, I feel like we've directed this thread away from the flaming and anger and back towards healthy discussion. Yay!)

Annnnd Lancer comes back to prove me wrong. Drat.

Also, please fact check before spouting nonsense

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/08/sakurai-describes-grueling-development-of-smash-bros-melee/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Smash_Bros._Melee#Development_and_release

He literally states that he worked on it for 13 months. That's 4 to 5 times the amount of time you just pulled out of your ass man.

And in seriousness, that interview makes it seem like he put in more than 13 months worth of full time work.

 

[mimgrim]

Simply put, Sakurai hasn't said if if it's irregular or not. Who made you the king of deciding if something is a glitch or exploit? And by that definition of exploit, everything is an exploit. I can 'exploit' jumping. I can 'exploit' a glitch. It is not a fact because that definition of exploit can be used to describe anything. Seriously, you didn't think I'd say this?

Ok that's it. Either you really are a troll or are just plain stupid.

No, the author did the wrong thing to get the most money.

Well at least you finally admit to being wrong on something.

What if he's not interested in money?

Then he wouldn't make it public and would attempt to make money off of it.

Is the kid drawing pictures and giving them to muma for free wrong?

That's totally different and you know it.

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

I didn't even ask you a question. I made statements.




Anyways, on the whole L-cancel thing. Both side have valid arguments imo. Persoally I'm not against L-cancel coming back or pro for it coming back, but if it does return I would like to see it changed somewhat and be implemented better.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

@ LancerStaff

I'm not even going to bother with you lancer. If you still keep calling wave dashing a glitch after what everyone in this thread has said you're stupid.

You're a self-righteous hypocrite, and it even shows in your post since you highlighted "glitch" then you beg the question of " who made you the king of deciding", well, who the hell made you king? Since apparently you're the only one who can do so.

Even reading further back you insult the people who reply to you as your last resort because you're defeated. I'm not even going to address your logic because you're just saying words that mean nothing.

Since you keep going on and on about the wavedash, Sakurai kept in Melee after years of the game being released. He did change some character specific things like in the PAL version of Marth's Down Aerial, allowing it to be meteor canceled. However, the wavedash was still in; he wanted it in.

Come Brawl, he removed wave landing from the major demo. A month and a half later there was another event hosted for a major pre release tournament where it was removed. I'm fairly sure the dude who made the game can find it instantly, especially if it's a mere byproduct of the physics engine.

Why did he remove it? Well if you read through the thread you would find out, but to reiterate, he removed it because of the Wii demographic having many entry level players who would undoubtably be dominated by series veterans. With the Wii U this isn't the case since those once entry level players are now veterans. That's basically it.

Honestly, you have to be one of the most hard headed, ill-informed posters I've seen in a long time. It's sad, because you are one of those players who think that without wave dashing you would probably stand a chance against better players, but that's never the case; it's one technique out if a many more important ones. The fact that you are in a tech skill thread and you only debate about one minor inclusion in the game speaks to your knowledge. You know what, I hope there isn't a wavedash in smash 4, so that when you get decimated by other players you'll have no excuse to fall back on and acknowledge your own shortcomings as a player. And even then you would find something else to complain about. When?--When will it be the time you hold yourself accountable for your actions?

As for your absence, why don't you just stay gone?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

What exactly is your point? =P It's still not a glitch. It's just a utilization of a perfectly legitimate chain of events that is in no way contrary to how the game should work. Wavedashing is just a term that we have attached to "air-dodging towards the ground from an extremely low altitude." It's just that this particular chain of events has been popularized to such a degree that it is now a de facto "technique."

It's no different than if a person jumping three times in a row was somehow extraordinarily beneficial to a player, and people started calling it "tripling" or something. There's nothing illegitimate about jumping three times in a row. Nothing about the physics engine is broken in the process. Likewise, there's nothing illegitimate about air dodging into the ground. It's not a glitch. It's just an exploitation of perfectly legitimate actions in such a way that becomes beneficial to the player.

Dash dancing is done because it confuses people. Sakurai never "intended" for people to just run back and forth aimlessly, but people do it anyway, and it's a common enough practice that it has been given a name. Dash dancing isn't a glitch, it's just something that people started doing because it helps them.

By the same token, the ability that we know as "wavedashing" was never removed, because it isn't an ability in and of itself. It is a byproduct of 2 perfectly legitimate abilities. One of those abilities was removed, and wavedashing was made impossible as a result. But that doesn't take away from the legitimacy of wavedashing as a technique. Sakurai took out directional air dodging because he knew that wavedashing was a perfectly legitimate byproduct of air dodging, and he wanted to even the playing field between players. But don't make the mistake of calling wavedashing a "glitch."

A glitch is being able to play as Master Hand. It's an illegitimate occurrence caused by an oversight in programming. Wavedashing is just a normal chain of events that people began utilizing as a de facto "move."

@ LancerStaff

Just gonna quote this since you clearly didn't read it.

 

[Muster]

Lax people don't usually toss around insults and tack on 'lol's in arguments in my experience. But whatever.

Lax people usually don't deal with morons either.

I think the 'obvious' things are obviously obvious. If you disagree, go ahead and disprove them. I'll gladly withdraw them if you do.

If he wanted Wavedashing, he would of left it in Brawl. It clashed with his ideal smash. Why leave it in Melee? There's a million possibilities as to why. You can't disprove all of them because we don't know. I made an assumption because that's all we can do here. Why is yours right and mine wrong?

To clarify, ''Doesn't care about the 1% as much as the other 99%.'' And Brawl's issues can be felt by the 99% too. So really, that change is for everybody.

I'll be back later or next week or something to continue. I might be gone a while.

Gonna go through this really quickly
1.there are two current versions of the air dodge, multiple and single, single air dodge moves you and multiple air dodge doesn't simple as that. You're assuming that if he makes it a single air dodge it will be non directional but single, but the possibility of him just using directional instead is still there, making the situation anything but obvious.
And if you genuinely think Sakurai tries to troll us, you're an idiot.

2.Sakurai never said brawl was his ideal smash, he made brawl for casual audiences to get into easier, he has already been quoted on saying that melee is the sharpest game in the series, does that make it his ideal smash? no, it doesn't. You have no idea what his ideal smash is.

3.Lol, should've added that in, then.

If you're going to take a week to reply, then why bother necroing the thread repeatedly? Just drop it. Nobody here (that doesn't have morbidaltruism in their name) agrees with you and nobody will, no matter how many half assed arguments you throw around. (And like i said before, dropping another half of the arguments.)

As for your absence, why don't you just stay gone?

sick burn

Anyways, on the whole L-cancel thing. Both side have valid arguments imo. Persoally I'm not against L-cancel coming back or pro for it coming back, but if it does return I would like to see it changed somewhat and be implemented better.

I'm also neutral about it, on one hand i can see how it can be detrimental when implemented wrong, on the other hand I have it pretty much down to muscle memory to the point i find myself L cancelling in games where it doesn't exist

 

[mimgrim]

To add onto what I said earlier about about L-cancel. In another thread I got into a good discussion about L-cancel with, the_suicide_fox, and something he said really piqued my interest.

Well, L-cancel was in Melee but it didn't hurt the game for those who played casually or as a party game. Advanced tech is more for the better players to keep the game from getting stale. I'm glad I could sort of change your mind LOL. I agree it could be better too (replaced not so much). Like I said before, I would have made it only possible on attacks that actually hit or even those that hit shields, or maybe not reduce lag but simply allow you to cancel into another attack. So you would need to L-cancel and input an attack of some sort during that time to actually get the cancel. It's just important for stuff like it to be there so top players always have room to grow.

So yea, what if instead of L-cancel working on any aerial lag it only worked if the aerial makes contact and other times it doesn't.

This way it works into the risk VS reward scenario instead. This way you can't just arbitrarily throw out an aerial and get away with it, you get punished for it instead. But if you make contact with that aerial you get rewarded instead and can make combos out of and stuff.

Something like that could really deepen L-cancel more and give it a risk VS reward case.

 

[Stryker]

To add onto what I said earlier about about L-cancel. In another thread I got into a good discussion about L-cancel with, the_suicide_fox, and something he said really piqued my interest.

So yea, what if instead of L-cancel working on any aerial lag it only worked if the aerial makes contact and other times it doesn't.

This way it works into the risk VS reward scenario instead. This way you can't just arbitrarily throw out an aerial and get away with it, you get punished for it instead. But if you make contact with that aerial you get rewarded instead and can make combos out of and stuff.

Something like that could really deepen L-cancel more and give it a risk VS reward case.

*emits long quiet squealing noise in happiness that people are still trying to get good convo out of this thread*

This. As much as I support L-cancelling, I can admit that it's not as deep of a mechanic as it could be.
I know people complain about it adding unneeded complexity, but I think it could do with more.

Right now, the only counter play is altering your shield position to create more/less hit lag with aerials hitting the shield therefore making the player possibly mess up an l cancel when they get to the ground. (Though, I'm pretty sure I occasionally see top players actually doing this.)

Thats not that much depth at all, and it doesn't add room for counter play.
I like the idea that not making contact causes the l cancel not to function. Especially because this would increase the power of spot dodging those attack instead of blocking.

There was another suggestion a few pages back as well, but I can't find it for the life of me. I think it had to do with taking damage on a missed L-cancel to have more risk reward, but I think I would rather allow something that provides more counter play to the opponent.

I'm just pulling this out of thin air without considering the implications in the slightest,
What if begin hit during an L cancel caused you to take significantly more damage, or significantly increased knock back?

 

[Johnknight1]

I think despite all the divided opinions, we can all agree random tripping is better than tech skill.

 

[Morbi]

Lax people usually don't deal with morons either.

Gonna go through this really quickly
1.there are two current versions of the air dodge, multiple and single, single air dodge moves you and multiple air dodge doesn't simple as that. You're assuming that if he makes it a single air dodge it will be non directional but single, but the possibility of him just using directional instead is still there, making the situation anything but obvious.
And if you genuinely think Sakurai tries to troll us, you're an idiot.

2.Sakurai never said brawl was his ideal smash, he made brawl for casual audiences to get into easier, he has already been quoted on saying that melee is the sharpest game in the series, does that make it his ideal smash? no, it doesn't. You have no idea what his ideal smash is.

3.Lol, should've added that in, then.

If you're going to take a week to reply, then why bother necroing the thread repeatedly? Just drop it. Nobody here agrees with you and nobody will, no matter how many half ***** arguments you throw around.

sick burn

I'm also neutral about it, on one hand i can see how it can be detrimental when implemented wrong, on the other hand I have it pretty much down to muscle memory to the point i find myself L cancelling in games where it doesn't exist

I actually do agree with Lancer to an extent. I didn't read his entire argument, but I certainly concur with the objectivity in his rationale.

 

[Muster]

I actually do agree with Lancer to an extent. I didn't read his entire argument, but I certainly concur with the objectivity in his rationale.

I'm just going to agree to disagree.
(assuming you're referring to his whole "argument" about wavedashing being a glitch.)

I think despite all the divided opinions, we can all agree random tripping is better than tech skill.

Random tripping was the perfect replacement for wavedashing. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a commie.

 

[pitthekit]

Picking wifi matches is the ultimate counter to players with high tech skill levels.

 

[Stryker]

I think despite all the divided opinions, we can all agree random tripping is better than tech skill.

Random tripping was actually pretty brilliant from a design perspective.
You want to slow down the game?
Punish people for running. Better yet, punish people for running randomly so that you have no idea when it's going to happen.
It also happens on turning so it shuts down dash dancing.

Above all else, tripping was a expertly designed mechanic to punish what melee had instilled into players.

Also, **** it.

 

[Johnknight1]

Random tripping has got to be the most technical move ever.

It literally cancels out every other technique.

I mean seriously, look at this.

Just look.

The filthy casual Link wasn't pro enough to use tripping right, so he died.

That's how advanced techniques should work.