The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[xandre]

"Smash was designed to get away from Streetfighter's combos and the like." as brilliant as ever.

 

[JediLink]

Wavedashing is easier than a Shoryuken.

Honestly, I agree with this. Wavedashing really is on the easy side when it comes to techs.

 

[Dimir]

I would imagine that someone as creative as the people at Nintendo could find a way to satisfy both sides of the gamer spectrum. I don't think the idea of a Smash game that would be fun for casual players and competitive players alike is unrealistic.

The existence of tech skill in melee did not ruin the game for the millions of Smash players who were unaware of tech skill.

 

[Johnknight1]

First case example of straw man argument right here.

Oh look, a hipster defaming my points by using the word straw man to say "your points suck" instead of presenting an actual argument. #ScrubItUp

>Shoryuken
>Complex

what

Plus you can do shortcuts for the moves via key mapping, so even most of the advanced Street Fighter, MvC, and Tekken are easier than ever to perform.

What's the point of arbitrary mechanics that require complicated button presses? Smash was designed to get away from Streetfighter's combos and the like.

Clicking 3 buttons in a certain order isn't "complex". In Super Mario Bros., in order to get through parts of the game, you gotta run with B, press A to jump, and use the control pad to go in a specific direction, often holding and releases any and all those inputs for various times and various degrees. That's 3 inputs. That's the same amount of inputs as wavedashing.

Heck, wavelanding only involves 2 (L or R plus the control stick), or as many as need inputs need to use most attacks. So hard...

If pushing 2 or 3 inputs is too hard for you, honestly, I would suggest you put down the controller and just push 1 button on the remote at a time.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i bet that almost every ingle one of the complainers never actually needed any tech skill in a match and are complaining becaus,e i dunno, boredom.

IT really says a lot when unintended advanced techs from smash are as complicated as one of the simplest motions in a traditional fighter. Dacus is a little more complex but nothing much (as far as the inputs go. the timing is super strict for that ****)

damn, what happened to the text?

 

[pitthekit]

i bet that almost every ingle one of the complainers never actually needed any tech skill in a match and are complaining becaus,e i dunno, boredom.

IT really says a lot when unintended advanced techs from smash are as complicated as one of the simplest motions in a traditional fighter. Dacus is a little more complex but nothing much (as far as the inputs go. the timing is super strict for that ****)

damn, what happened to the text?

Sorry man your text is forever cursed.
Been happening to me ever since I was a child.

 

[LancerStaff]

Oh look, a hipster defaming my points by using the word straw man to say "your points suck" instead of presenting an actual argument. #ScrubItUp

Plus you can do shortcuts for the moves via key mapping, so even most of the advanced Street Fighter, MvC, and Tekken are easier than ever to perform.

Clicking 3 buttons in a certain order isn't "complex". In Super Mario Bros., in order to get through parts of the game, you gotta run with B, press A to jump, and use the control pad to go in a specific direction, often holding and releases any and all those inputs for various times and various degrees. That's 3 inputs. That's the same amount of inputs as wavedashing.

Heck, wavelanding only involves 2 (L or R plus the control stick), or as many as need inputs need to use most attacks. So hard...

If pushing 2 or 3 inputs is too hard for you, honestly, I would suggest you put down the controller and just push 1 button on the remote at a time.

Well, what can I say? It's Sakurai that thinks it's too hard. Go ahead and fly over and explain to him that Wavedashing is easy.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Oh look, a hipster defaming my points by using the word straw man to say "your points suck" instead of presenting an actual argument. #ScrubItUp

Plus you can do shortcuts for the moves via key mapping, so even most of the advanced Street Fighter, MvC, and Tekken are easier than ever to perform.

Clicking 3 buttons in a certain order isn't "complex". In Super Mario Bros., in order to get through parts of the game, you gotta run with B, press A to jump, and use the control pad to go in a specific direction, often holding and releases any and all those inputs for various times and various degrees. That's 3 inputs. That's the same amount of inputs as wavedashing.

Heck, wavelanding only involves 2 (L or R plus the control stick), or as many as need inputs need to use most attacks. So hard...

If pushing 2 or 3 inputs is too hard for you, honestly, I would suggest you put down the controller and just push 1 button on the remote at a time.

Geez who pissed in your Lucky Charms. I said it is the straw man because it is. Your looking at the wrong interpretation of the argument and exaggerating your points. if you consider the control pad its self to be a single button than the street fighter super combos are simpler consisting of only control pad and a button press. ( what i just demonstrated was straw man as well.) Because ts exaggerated wave dashing is not simple to execute in combat and leads to mistakes much to often. In a game where simplicity yet deep system are the premise wave dashing has no real job being part of smash.

 

[D-idara]

So, adding to the thread, I was recently watching some pretty exciting Project M matches from APEX 2014, and although PM's built on top of Brawl, the mod still manages to be as twitchy as Melee at a high level, but that's not relevant here. I was looking at the matches and found them very exciting, even when the players didn't even move a single time without wavedashing most of the time. And I noticed something happening with a lot of matches, sometimes, a player wanted to follow up on a combo but due to the heat of the moment, they failed the wavedash and airdodged instead.

Why should a player's mindgame and basic technical skill should be negated because of a tech with an unnecessarily twitchy command that's bound to fail some times? And don't come at me with your stupid "Uh! Jumping's too hard, attacking's too hard!" bull****, because when you press the jump button slightly, you shorthop, when you press the attack button, you attack, but wavedash requires pressing three buttons at lightning speed while also focusing on whatever you're going to do next, these wavedash 'hiccups' sort of acted like a cellphone ringing during a movie, because they totally broke the inmersion and the fluidity of the matches.

Since you seem to hate so much on random factors, those hiccups act as random factors, because the player does the thing the same way as they're used to, with the practice they've acquired, but because of minuscule differences with frames, their inputs don't result on the desired output, and that's one of the main problems with fighting games overall, the game doesn't do what the player wants it to do because it relies on painfully, unnecessarily-precise command-recognition systems that do nothing but take away from the game.

When a player jumps while expecting a grounded strike and they get hit with a projectile to the face, that's called skill and mindgames, when a player's unable to follow up on a combo because the game failed to recognize the command, that's called bad design. Let's say I want to down-throw with Sonic, follow up with a shorthop axe-kick, dash attack and then 'wavedash' backwards and F-Smash. If the 'wavedash' part's replaced with something easier to do that still requires precise timing and spacing, that means the game's getting better, because I could concentrate much more on my actual combo and the core mechanics of the game instead of having to do this:

ZR (Grab) + Down...
Then tap Y + Second Stick...
Tap Stick + A...
THEN SUDDENLY AND JARRINGLY...I have to press Y+Diagonal Dodge while preparing my thumb to twitch quickly towards the C-Stick to F-Smash. Seems a lot more complicated and prone to fail than the other simpler inputs to build a combo. Wouldn't it be the exact same thing if I could just tap the control stick towards the direction I want to 'wavedash'? Then I'd have more time to just F-Smash, it'd be the same thought process and almost the same inputs, but it could be done from the moment you pick up the game.

The thing I'm getting at after all this nonsense: If other fighting games want to keep up their outdated system to keep sucking up to etilists, fine, but Smash has always been about a better, more beautiful form of game depth, one that gives you all the tools you need and you only need to use them correctly.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So, adding to the thread, I was recently watching some pretty exciting Project M matches from APEX 2014, and although PM's built on top of Brawl, the mod still manages to be as twitchy as Melee at a high level, but that's not relevant here. I was looking at the matches and found them very exciting, even when the players didn't even move a single time without wavedashing most of the time. And I noticed something happening with a lot of matches, sometimes, a player wanted to follow up on a combo but due to the heat of the moment, they failed the wavedash and airdodged instead.

Why should a player's mindgame and basic technical skill should be negated because of a tech with an unnecessarily twitchy command that's bound to fail some times? And don't come at me with your stupid "Uh! Jumping's too hard, attacking's too hard!" bull****, because when you press the jump button slightly, you shorthop, when you press the attack button, you attack, but wavedash requires pressing three buttons at lightning speed while also focusing on whatever you're going to do next, these wavedash 'hiccups' sort of acted like a cellphone ringing during a movie, because they totally broke the inmersion and the fluidity of the matches.

Since you seem to hate so much on random factors, those hiccups act as random factors, because the player does the thing the same way as they're used to, with the practice they've acquired, but because of minuscule differences with frames, their inputs don't result on the desired output, and that's one of the main problems with fighting games overall, the game doesn't do what the player wants it to do because it relies on painfully, unnecessarily-precise command-recognition systems that do nothing but take away from the game.

When a player jumps while expecting a grounded strike and they get hit with a projectile to the face, that's called skill and mindgames, when a player's unable to follow up on a combo because the game failed to recognize the command, that's called bad design. Let's say I want to down-throw with Sonic, follow up with a shorthop axe-kick, dash attack and then 'wavedash' backwards and F-Smash. If the 'wavedash' part's replaced with something easier to do that still requires precise timing and spacing, that means the game's getting better, because I could concentrate much more on my actual combo and the core mechanics of the game instead of having to do this:

ZR (Grab) + Down...
Then tap Y + Second Stick...
Tap Stick + A...
THEN SUDDENLY AND JARRINGLY...I have to press Y+Diagonal Dodge while preparing my thumb to twitch quickly towards the C-Stick to F-Smash. Seems a lot more complicated and prone to fail than the other simpler inputs to build a combo. Wouldn't it be the exact same thing if I could just tap the control stick towards the direction I want to 'wavedash'? Then I'd have more time to just F-Smash, it'd be the same thought process and almost the same inputs, but it could be done from the moment you pick up the game.

The thing I'm getting at after all this nonsense: If other fighting games want to keep up their outdated system to keep sucking up to etilists, fine, but Smash has always been about a better, more beautiful form of game depth, one that gives you all the tools you need and you only need to use them correctly.

Ill be honest you make a good point. There will always be mistakes in fighting games but movement options should never be 2 button inputs and a direction.

 

[NFTsmasher]

So, adding to the thread, I was recently watching some pretty exciting Project M matches from APEX 2014, and although PM's built on top of Brawl, the mod still manages to be as twitchy as Melee at a high level, but that's not relevant here. I was looking at the matches and found them very exciting, even when the players didn't even move a single time without wavedashing most of the time. And I noticed something happening with a lot of matches, sometimes, a player wanted to follow up on a combo but due to the heat of the moment, they failed the wavedash and airdodged instead.

Why should a player's mindgame and basic technical skill should be negated because of a tech with an unnecessarily twitchy command that's bound to fail some times? And don't come at me with your stupid "Uh! Jumping's too hard, attacking's too hard!" bull****, because when you press the jump button slightly, you shorthop, when you press the attack button, you attack, but wavedash requires pressing three buttons at lightning speed while also focusing on whatever you're going to do next, these wavedash 'hiccups' sort of acted like a cellphone ringing during a movie, because they totally broke the inmersion and the fluidity of the matches.

Since you seem to hate so much on random factors, those hiccups act as random factors, because the player does the thing the same way as they're used to, with the practice they've acquired, but because of minuscule differences with frames, their inputs don't result on the desired output, and that's one of the main problems with fighting games overall, the game doesn't do what the player wants it to do because it relies on painfully, unnecessarily-precise command-recognition systems that do nothing but take away from the game.

When a player jumps while expecting a grounded strike and they get hit with a projectile to the face, that's called skill and mindgames, when a player's unable to follow up on a combo because the game failed to recognize the command, that's called bad design. Let's say I want to down-throw with Sonic, follow up with a shorthop axe-kick, dash attack and then 'wavedash' backwards and F-Smash. If the 'wavedash' part's replaced with something easier to do that still requires precise timing and spacing, that means the game's getting better, because I could concentrate much more on my actual combo and the core mechanics of the game instead of having to do this:

ZR (Grab) + Down...
Then tap Y + Second Stick...
Tap Stick + A...
THEN SUDDENLY AND JARRINGLY...I have to press Y+Diagonal Dodge while preparing my thumb to twitch quickly towards the C-Stick to F-Smash. Seems a lot more complicated and prone to fail than the other simpler inputs to build a combo. Wouldn't it be the exact same thing if I could just tap the control stick towards the direction I want to 'wavedash'? Then I'd have more time to just F-Smash, it'd be the same thought process and almost the same inputs, but it could be done from the moment you pick up the game.

The thing I'm getting at after all this nonsense: If other fighting games want to keep up their outdated system to keep sucking up to etilists, fine, but Smash has always been about a better, more beautiful form of game depth, one that gives you all the tools you need and you only need to use them correctly.

Whoever messed up their wavedash probably did so not because of needing to give inputs within only a few frames of each other, but because they simply didn't tilt the control stick at the right angle, the same kind of mistake that you are prone to make when performing any other move.

 

[D-idara]

Whoever messed up their wavedash probably did so not because of needing to give inputs within only a few frames of each other, but because they simply didn't tilt the control stick at the right angle, the same kind of mistake that you are prone to make when performing any other move.

Yes, but with such a painfully-precise, awkward input you're much more likely to miss it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ill be honest you make a good point. There will always be mistakes in fighting games but movement options should never be 2 button inputs and a direction.

In your opinion. SSB barely even qualifies as a fighting game most of the time, and doesn't have to limit itself to fighting game standards.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

So, adding to the thread, I was recently watching some pretty exciting Project M matches from APEX 2014, and although PM's built on top of Brawl, the mod still manages to be as twitchy as Melee at a high level, but that's not relevant here. I was looking at the matches and found them very exciting, even when the players didn't even move a single time without wavedashing most of the time. And I noticed something happening with a lot of matches, sometimes, a player wanted to follow up on a combo but due to the heat of the moment, they failed the wavedash and airdodged instead.

Why should a player's mindgame and basic technical skill should be negated because of a tech with an unnecessarily twitchy command that's bound to fail some times? And don't come at me with your stupid "Uh! Jumping's too hard, attacking's too hard!" bull****, because when you press the jump button slightly, you shorthop, when you press the attack button, you attack, but wavedash requires pressing three buttons at lightning speed while also focusing on whatever you're going to do next, these wavedash 'hiccups' sort of acted like a cellphone ringing during a movie, because they totally broke the inmersion and the fluidity of the matches.

Since you seem to hate so much on random factors, those hiccups act as random factors, because the player does the thing the same way as they're used to, with the practice they've acquired, but because of minuscule differences with frames, their inputs don't result on the desired output, and that's one of the main problems with fighting games overall, the game doesn't do what the player wants it to do because it relies on painfully, unnecessarily-precise command-recognition systems that do nothing but take away from the game.

When a player jumps while expecting a grounded strike and they get hit with a projectile to the face, that's called skill and mindgames, when a player's unable to follow up on a combo because the game failed to recognize the command, that's called bad design. Let's say I want to down-throw with Sonic, follow up with a shorthop axe-kick, dash attack and then 'wavedash' backwards and F-Smash. If the 'wavedash' part's replaced with something easier to do that still requires precise timing and spacing, that means the game's getting better, because I could concentrate much more on my actual combo and the core mechanics of the game instead of having to do this:

ZR (Grab) + Down...
Then tap Y + Second Stick...
Tap Stick + A...
THEN SUDDENLY AND JARRINGLY...I have to press Y+Diagonal Dodge while preparing my thumb to twitch quickly towards the C-Stick to F-Smash. Seems a lot more complicated and prone to fail than the other simpler inputs to build a combo. Wouldn't it be the exact same thing if I could just tap the control stick towards the direction I want to 'wavedash'? Then I'd have more time to just F-Smash, it'd be the same thought process and almost the same inputs, but it could be done from the moment you pick up the game.

The thing I'm getting at after all this nonsense: If other fighting games want to keep up their outdated system to keep sucking up to etilists, fine, but Smash has always been about a better, more beautiful form of game depth, one that gives you all the tools you need and you only need to use them correctly.

You do have a point, but that execution error was a mere hiccup, and it's actually more common than one would think. Even top players miss their techs, due to a number of factors like nerves or pressure from the opponent. No one is perfect, not even Mew2King.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

In your opinion. SSB barely even qualifies as a fighting game most of the time, and doesn't have to limit itself to fighting game standards.

Not quite im just saying no fighting game makes u press 2 buttons for a movement without shortcuts.

 

[smashmachine]

In your opinion. SSB barely even qualifies as a fighting game most of the time, and doesn't have to limit itself to fighting game standards.

oh
We're really gonna do this again?

 

[LancerStaff]

Not quite im just saying no fighting game makes u press 2 buttons for a movement without shortcuts.

Except one...

oh
We're really gonna do this again?

What? I acknowledged that it's a fighting game, just that it doesn't really qualify the way most people play. Can you really say four players on Warioware, items on high, is the same kind of game as Street Fighter? SSB's wide appeal not only comes from it's characters, but from it's varied gameplay too.

 

[Johnknight1]

if you consider the control pad its self to be a single button than the street fighter super combos are simpler consisting of only control pad and a button press. ( what i just demonstrated was straw man as well.) Because ts exaggerated wave dashing is not simple to execute in combat and leads to mistakes much to often.

You'd be right if people weren't complaining about wavedashing or a simple dash being too complex every dang post.

In a game where simplicity yet deep system are the premise wave dashing has no real job being part of smash.

Wavedashing is insanely simple. Literally it's as complex as a shield grab to a quick throw with just as many inputs (unless you're playing Bowser, but then you have a problem... you're playing Bowser).

Also, why are we complaining about this when the people who FIRST MADE WAVEDASHING IN A FIGHTING GAME ARE WORKING ON SMASH 4=???

Well, what can I say? It's Sakurai that thinks it's too hard. Go ahead and fly over and explain to him that Wavedashing is easy.

Sakurai has never mentioned wavedashing by name ever.

Also, he invented L-cancelling and Z-cancelling on purpose, and those execution-wise are much harder to land right than wavedashing (since you have to have muscle memory with the input for at least 5 moves per character, and, at least in Melee, there's 26 characters, plus 1 attack for 3 characters, bringing it to 133 attacks), often with different frame data for hitting and missing, different time hit, sweetspots, sourspots, and "the weirdness" like hitting the Ice Climbers, so there's that.

Back to your wavedashing point, if wavedashing is "so hard" why did Sakurai go out of his way to involve the Tekken team, aka the team THAT INVENTED WAVEDASHING IN FIGHTING GAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE=???

===

Realistically, we should have a substitute to wavedashing IMO (something akin to a dash attack, akin to what the great @ Big-Cat always suggest but half of you ignore because you're too busy reading stupid posts instead of posts from arguably the best Smash 4 boards poster, and without a doubt the best poster in regard to gameplay features that could be added), but that's beside the point I'm trying to make. It's barely "advanced" at all. Little Mac's forward smash is about as complex as it.

If you want to take away "complex" things, look at frame data and hitboxes. Frame data and hitboxes are stupid complex, which is why we have colorful effects; to make the "complex" things simple. The color and bloom effects in Smash WiiU and 3DS indicated the hitboxes, and hopefully we won't have stupid ones like Snake's up air in Brawl.

 

[pitthekit]

You'd be right if people weren't complaining about wavedashing or a simple dash being too complex every dang post.

Wavedashing is insanely simple. Literally it's as complex as a shield grab to a quick throw with just as many inputs (unless you're playing Bowser, but then you have a problem... you're playing Bowser).

Also, why are we complaining about this when the people who FIRST MADE WAVEDASHING IN A FIGHTING GAME ARE WORKING ON SMASH 4=???

Sakurai has never mentioned wavedashing by name ever.

Also, he invented L-cancelling and Z-cancelling on purpose, and those execution-wise are much harder to land right than wavedashing (since you have to have muscle memory with the input for at least 5 moves per character, and, at least in Melee, there's 26 characters, plus 1 attack for 3 characters, bringing it to 133 attacks), often with different frame data for hitting and missing, different time hit, sweetspots, sourspots, and "the weirdness" like hitting the Ice Climbers, so there's that.

Back to your wavedashing point, if wavedashing is "so hard" why did Sakurai go out of his way to involve the Tekken team, aka the team THAT INVENTED WAVEDASHING IN FIGHTING GAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE=???

===

Realistically, we should have a substitute to wavedashing IMO (something akin to a dash attack, akin to what the great @ Big-Cat always suggest but half of you ignore because you're too busy reading stupid posts instead of posts from arguably the best Smash 4 boards poster, and without a doubt the best poster in regard to gameplay features that could be added), but that's beside the point I'm trying to make. It's barely "advanced" at all. Little Mac's forward smash is about as complex as it.

If you want to take away "complex" things, look at frame data and hitboxes. Frame data and hitboxes are stupid complex, which is why we have colorful effects; to make the "complex" things simple. The color and bloom effects in Smash WiiU and 3DS indicated the hitboxes, and hopefully we won't have stupid ones like Snake's up air in Brawl.

KumaOso is one of my favourite posters he has such productive posts with great ideas.
In fact I may include KumaOso in my signature!

I hate it when things get oversimplified. Like how public schools only teach applied mathematics and not pure "useless "mathematics, okay schools sometimes dabble in pure mathematics....


Does anyone here know why sakurai even bothered to let namco bandai( I butchered the spelling and name) work on smash 4?

Honestly I don't know if smash 4 is going to revive wave dashing, but I hope sakurai tries to incorporate melees momentum physics.A mobility oriented game such as smash would benefit from mobility flowing from ground to air.
In brawl if you jump out of dash you don't retain your dash speeds momentum instead you move at your characters air speed.
If your character has a poor air speed XXCough pit CoughXX you suffer from ground to air movements + offstage combos do to your lack of speed.


And for you realism freaks out there- you retain momentum if you jump out of your "dash" or running speed.
Aerodynamics may effect your speed.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, Olimar is more complex than Wavedashing, and I don't see any complaints about him.

Does anyone here know why sakurai even bothered to let namco bandai( I butchered the spelling and name) work on smash 4?

Because Game Arts is crap and HAL Laboratories is busy making a trillion Kirby games at once.

Honestly I don't know if smash 4 is going to revive wave dashing, but I hope sakurai tries to incorporate melees momentum physics.A mobility oriented game such as smash would benefit from mobility flowing from ground to air.
In brawl if you jump out of dash you don't retain your dash speeds momentum instead you move at your characters air speed

Yeah, we're gonna get something to replace the quick momentum movement speed, which Smash really needs IMO.

Whether that means a more streamlined approach to dash dancing, quicker run startups, quicker movement speeds, a super fast shield/dodge roll, and/or a air/ground dash, we need something. We want instant offense and more pressure.

But regardless, we should have something that does something like this.

 

[Thunderfang747]

Honestly, Olimar is more complex than Wavedashing, and I don't see any complaints about him.

Because Game Arts is crap and HAL Laboratories is busy making a trillion Kirby games at once.

Yeah, we're gonna get something to replace the quick momentum movement speed, which Smash really needs IMO.

Whether that means a more streamlined approach to dash dancing, quicker run startups, quicker movement speeds, a super fast shield/dodge roll, and/or a air/ground dash, we need something. We want instant offense and more pressure.

But regardless, we should have something that does something like this.

Hmm...One thing in particular I would really like to see brought back is the ability to move backwards while still facing forwards. Backwards wavedashing obviously allowed this and I feel like it added a really neat defensive option. Do you think there could be any way to replace this as well? I suppose a backwards air dash would have similar effects, you would just need to fall with an air normal after baiting an approach.

 

[Big-Cat]

If this were a 2D fighting game, the answer would be super simple, but we don't have that "luxury".

Faster recovery out of backward rolls is really enough to get the job done when it comes to implementing a backdash.

 

[Thunderfang747]

If this were a 2D fighting game, the answer would be super simple, but we don't have that "luxury".

Faster recovery out of backward rolls is really enough to get the job done when it comes to implementing a backdash.

It would work I suppose, my only issue is that rolls were made to be punishable if read correctly. I wonder where the balance would be between the ability to recover for a pseudo-backdash and still allowing the opponent the ability to punish bad rolls. To be fair poor dashes are pretty punishable in traditional fighters so with proper testing, this could be a good alternative.

 

[Empyrean]

If this were a 2D fighting game, the answer would be super simple, but we don't have that "luxury".

Faster recovery out of backward rolls is really enough to get the job done when it comes to implementing a backdash.

Indeed, and it might just happen this time around.

As for airdashes, I really don't see Sakurai adding it to Smash Bros, the same way wavedash is not coming back, I'm afraid.

 

[Big-Cat]

It would work I suppose, my only issue is that rolls were made to be punishable if read correctly. I wonder where the balance would be between the ability to recover for a pseudo-backdash and still allowing the opponent the ability to punish bad rolls. To be fair poor dashes are pretty punishable in traditional fighters so with proper testing, this could be a good alternative.

You predict when the opponent will backdash. Chase after them with a punisher of your choice.

Indeed, and it might just happen this time around.

As for airdashes, I really don't see Sakurai adding it to Smash Bros, the same way wavedash is not coming back, I'm afraid.

Why is that?

 

[Thunderfang747]

Ya, I guess you're right. I was thinking with the invincibility during a majority of the roll, allowing the roller to be back in neutral quickly could cause problems. However, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to simply reduce some of the invincibility or something. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Empyrean]

It's more of a gut feeling, so I don't have anything substantial to back it up with. It just looks like the man has no intention to add anything other than the basics. I sincerely hope I'm wrong and Sakurai surprises us with something good.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Honestly, Olimar is more complex than Wavedashing, and I don't see any complaints about him.

Because Game Arts is crap and HAL Laboratories is busy making a trillion Kirby games at once.

Yeah, we're gonna get something to replace the quick momentum movement speed, which Smash really needs IMO.

Whether that means a more streamlined approach to dash dancing, quicker run startups, quicker movement speeds, a super fast shield/dodge roll, and/or a air/ground dash, we need something. We want instant offense and more pressure.

But regardless, we should have something that does something like this.

Honestly momentum is the only thing I'm concerned about. Every time I watch the videos I see no evidence of it returned and seeing characters do standing short hops that gain stupid distance without a run (Mario) and characters who run for their life and gain nothing out of the run to jump transition (Sonic). I'm hoping that it is perhaps a technical error. Hopefully something is done. I don't know what to make of this though since I haven't played Brawl in who knows how long.

It looks like momentum, but I feel like Pit would have gained much more distance if that was the case.

 

[LancerStaff]

You'd be right if people weren't complaining about wavedashing or a simple dash being too complex every dang post.

Wavedashing is insanely simple. Literally it's as complex as a shield grab to a quick throw with just as many inputs (unless you're playing Bowser, but then you have a problem... you're playing Bowser).

Also, why are we complaining about this when the people who FIRST MADE WAVEDASHING IN A FIGHTING GAME ARE WORKING ON SMASH 4=???

Sakurai has never mentioned wavedashing by name ever.

Also, he invented L-cancelling and Z-cancelling on purpose, and those execution-wise are much harder to land right than wavedashing (since you have to have muscle memory with the input for at least 5 moves per character, and, at least in Melee, there's 26 characters, plus 1 attack for 3 characters, bringing it to 133 attacks), often with different frame data for hitting and missing, different time hit, sweetspots, sourspots, and "the weirdness" like hitting the Ice Climbers, so there's that.

Back to your wavedashing point, if wavedashing is "so hard" why did Sakurai go out of his way to involve the Tekken team, aka the team THAT INVENTED WAVEDASHING IN FIGHTING GAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE=???

===

Realistically, we should have a substitute to wavedashing IMO (something akin to a dash attack, akin to what the great @ Big-Cat always suggest but half of you ignore because you're too busy reading stupid posts instead of posts from arguably the best Smash 4 boards poster, and without a doubt the best poster in regard to gameplay features that could be added), but that's beside the point I'm trying to make. It's barely "advanced" at all. Little Mac's forward smash is about as complex as it.

If you want to take away "complex" things, look at frame data and hitboxes. Frame data and hitboxes are stupid complex, which is why we have colorful effects; to make the "complex" things simple. The color and bloom effects in Smash WiiU and 3DS indicated the hitboxes, and hopefully we won't have stupid ones like Snake's up air in Brawl.

He has talked about Wavedashing, he said he left it in, in Melee, and removed it in Brawl because it clashed. L-canceling? How do we know it wasn't supposed to be an extra cheat thing to get an edge on your little brother who didn't read the manual? Why involve the Tekken team? For all we know, they asked nicely and Sakurai was okay with it. After all, Sakurai is doing all the balancing himself.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You'd be right if people weren't complaining about wavedashing or a simple dash being too complex every dang post.

Wavedashing is insanely simple. Literally it's as complex as a shield grab to a quick throw with just as many inputs (unless you're playing Bowser, but then you have a problem... you're playing Bowser).

Also, why are we complaining about this when the people who FIRST MADE WAVEDASHING IN A FIGHTING GAME ARE WORKING ON SMASH 4=???

Sakurai has never mentioned wavedashing by name ever.

Also, he invented L-cancelling and Z-cancelling on purpose, and those execution-wise are much harder to land right than wavedashing (since you have to have muscle memory with the input for at least 5 moves per character, and, at least in Melee, there's 26 characters, plus 1 attack for 3 characters, bringing it to 133 attacks), often with different frame data for hitting and missing, different time hit, sweetspots, sourspots, and "the weirdness" like hitting the Ice Climbers, so there's that.

Back to your wavedashing point, if wavedashing is "so hard" why did Sakurai go out of his way to involve the Tekken team, aka the team THAT INVENTED WAVEDASHING IN FIGHTING GAMES IN THE FIRST PLACE=???

===

Realistically, we should have a substitute to wavedashing IMO (something akin to a dash attack, akin to what the great @ Big-Cat always suggest but half of you ignore because you're too busy reading stupid posts instead of posts from arguably the best Smash 4 boards poster, and without a doubt the best poster in regard to gameplay features that could be added), but that's beside the point I'm trying to make. It's barely "advanced" at all. Little Mac's forward smash is about as complex as it.

If you want to take away "complex" things, look at frame data and hitboxes. Frame data and hitboxes are stupid complex, which is why we have colorful effects; to make the "complex" things simple. The color and bloom effects in Smash WiiU and 3DS indicated the hitboxes, and hopefully we won't have stupid ones like Snake's up air in Brawl.

I was never complaining about wave dashing in the sense your thinking about (i know how do to them as well as use them in pressure) but in the end i still agree that a substitute would be welcome. But if nothing occurs anyway smash more looks like it has competitive play regardless.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

You must remember that momentum might have its own take in smash 4 since its definitely not copying project m or melee in that sense.

 

[Empyrean]

Sakurai doing all the balancing by himself is where everything is going wrong, imo. Sure, he pulled it off quite nicely in Smash 64 (even top Samus players can get results), but the game only had 12 characters. Balance already got screwed a bit with Melee, and even more with Brawl. Smash 4 will suffer from the same problem, or even worse, if the guy continues to do it all alone.

Falcon is the best example of what momentum can do, and I hope it returns, more so than any other mechanic/character/gamemode. Falcon suffered considerably from the loss of momentum in Brawl, and so did many others.

And people, just drop the talk about wavedashing, I, and surely many others, are getting sick of it. You think it's complex and has a difficult input? Okay, no problem. But stop making it sound like it's objectively harder for everyone, and even worse, stop pretending like it's the only tech out there that people care about and hope to see return.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sakurai doing all the balancing by himself is where everything is going wrong, imo. Sure, he pulled it off quite nicely in Smash 64 (even top Samus players can get results), but the game only had 12 characters. Balance already got screwed a bit with Melee, and even more with Brawl. Smash 4 will suffer from the same problem, or even worse, if the guy continues to do it all alone.

Falcon is the best example of what momentum can do, and I hope it returns, more so than any other mechanic/character/gamemode. Falcon suffered considerably from the loss of momentum in Brawl, and so did many others.

And people, just drop the talk about wavedashing, I, and surely many others, are getting sick of it. You think it's complex and has a difficult input? Okay, no problem. But stop making it sound like it's objectively harder for everyone, and even worse, stop pretending like it's the only tech out there that people care about and hope to see return.

My god where did sakurai say hes handling the balancing by himself? He said hes doing the hit boxes. The move set and combo potential could still very well be done by the team. Not to mention new moves and such.

 

[NFTsmasher]

Hmm...One thing in particular I would really like to see brought back is the ability to move backwards while still facing forwards. Backwards wavedashing obviously allowed this and I feel like it added a really neat defensive option. Do you think there could be any way to replace this as well? I suppose a backwards air dash would have similar effects, you would just need to fall with an air normal after baiting an approach.

Yeah, it would be cool to maybe just be able to hold down a button to lock the direction you face. And then the control stick is used for either dash forward or back pedal (dash backward). That would probably make more sense spacing-wise.

 

[Empyrean]

My god where did sakurai say hes handling the balancing by himself? He said hes doing the hit boxes. The move set and combo potential could still very well be done by the team. Not to mention new moves and such.

It was the case for previous entries in the series. And while I'm pretty sure that he's not doing it all alone this time, he still has the final say on balance. I was just saying that it would be a problem if he did it by himself again for Smash 4, not that he is actually doing so.

 

[Muster]

My god where did sakurai say hes handling the balancing by himself? He said hes doing the hit boxes. The move set and combo potential could still very well be done by the team. Not to mention new moves and such.

Moveset and combo potential fall under "fighter skills". Not to mention the article is called "Sakurai is balancing the new Smash Bros. by himself"

 

[Empyrean]

Moveset and combo potential fall under "fighter skills". Not to mention the article is called "Sakurai is balancing the new Smash Bros. by himself"

Makes one wonder, the **** is Namco supposed to be doing then?

 

[Thunderfang747]

Makes one wonder, the **** is Namco supposed to be doing then?

Well in this interview from 2012, http://kotaku.com/5920428/just-how-much-of-the-new-smash-bros-is-namco-a-lot-apparently , Sakurai stated "Currently, the prototype prepared by Namco Bandai Games and Namco Bandai Studios' special team looks pretty good, and it's working great. In order to take advantage of the fact that there will be versions for two different systems, and to maximize and offer fun new gameplay elements, the entire team is going to work hard together." then later, Namco makes this interesting statement "and we hereby promise you that we will develop the best and most powerful Super Smash Bros. title ever! Don't miss it!" Sakurai really could be doing the character balancing himself, but it sounds like Namco at least created the engine. They might even be in charge of the physics and new mechanics of the game, which would be pretty substantial in its own right.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm sure Sakurai said he's not the only one this time around. He did for the past games for God knows what reason.

 

[DarkDream]

I read a good amount of this thread, and there's a couple of points I want to present.

1- By being on this site, you pretty much automatically adhere to the fact that you see smash as a competitive game. Therefor, comparisons to fighting games are not made moot since the whole goal of the smash community right now is to get competitive smash recognized as a legit fighter.

2- Wavedashes are simple in execution but not so in active combat. Nothing is. It's relatively easy to throw a jab in boxing or press light punch in street fighter or even press the A button in smash, but once you add a moving target that you're trying to attack, the stress of that targets motions makes things a little more difficult.

3- It is a bit harder to perform than a shoryuken motion, but quicker, primarily due to the fact that you are focusing on 3 controller regions an 3 hand digits just to perform it, whereas the shoryuken consists of either two thumbs or a hand and a finger and is kept in one region. Once mastered, you can do it faster than you could ever input a shoryuken without much effort at all, but prior to that learners are going to have problems, especially once a new player learns the difference between already holding the direction prior to jumping and pressing the direction after jumping.

4- Just because it's a bit difficult doesn't mean it has to be made easier. The wavedash isn't that hard overall. Now if it was something stupid like some King of Fighters super commands, I could see the need but otherwise it's not that necessary at all.

5- The whole wave dash thing could be solved in the next smash by maintaining momentum with a slide by returning to neutral on the control stick after a dash, ala brawl luigi, only less ridiculously slippery, whereas forward momentum could be stopped completely by shielding or turning back. That way they can keep the brawl style dodges and the wave dash tech, and it will be easy enough for anyone to do.

Personally, uptilts are harder to pull off than wavedashes. I have to fight every impulse I have just to point the stick up without jumping.