The "Advance Techniques" from Melee. Sensible or Illogical?

[LancerStaff]

The way I see it, the balance will be better this time around because Sakurai is focusing on it. Did he once mention balance before Brawl came out? What if he just went "MK is OP and Gannondorf sucks. Meh, good enough." ?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The way I see it, the balance will be better this time around because Sakurai is focusing on it. Did he once mention balance before Brawl came out? What if he just went "MK is OP and Gannondorf sucks. Meh, good enough." ?

Actually he did. He also mentioned that he was focusing on aerial combat.

 

[Empyrean]

The way I see it, the balance will be better this time around because Sakurai is focusing on it. Did he once mention balance before Brawl came out? What if he just went "MK is OP and Gannondorf sucks. Meh, good enough." ?

So you're saying the man might have intentionally released a broken game? It's actually not entirely impossible, to be honest..

 

[Sun & Moon]

Personally, uptilts are harder to pull off than wavedashes. I have to fight every impulse I have just to point the stick up without jumping.

And that's why I hate tap jump.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually he did. He also mentioned that he was focusing on aerial combat.

Gotta link?

 

[D-idara]

I read a good amount of this thread, and there's a couple of points I want to present.

1- By being on this site, you pretty much automatically adhere to the fact that you see smash as a competitive game. Therefor, comparisons to fighting games are not made moot since the whole goal of the smash community right now is to get competitive smash recognized as a legit fighter.

2- Wavedashes are simple in execution but not so in active combat. Nothing is. It's relatively easy to throw a jab in boxing or press light punch in street fighter or even press the A button in smash, but once you add a moving target that you're trying to attack, the stress of that targets motions makes things a little more difficult.

3- It is a bit harder to perform than a shoryuken motion, but quicker, primarily due to the fact that you are focusing on 3 controller regions an 3 hand digits just to perform it, whereas the shoryuken consists of either two thumbs or a hand and a finger and is kept in one region. Once mastered, you can do it faster than you could ever input a shoryuken without much effort at all, but prior to that learners are going to have problems, especially once a new player learns the difference between already holding the direction prior to jumping and pressing the direction after jumping.

4- Just because it's a bit difficult doesn't mean it has to be made easier. The wavedash isn't that hard overall. Now if it was something stupid like some King of Fighters super commands, I could see the need but otherwise it's not that necessary at all.

5- The whole wave dash thing could be solved in the next smash by maintaining momentum with a slide by returning to neutral on the control stick after a dash, ala brawl luigi, only less ridiculously slippery, whereas forward momentum could be stopped completely by shielding or turning back. That way they can keep the brawl style dodges and the wave dash tech, and it will be easy enough for anyone to do.

Personally, uptilts are harder to pull off than wavedashes. I have to fight every impulse I have just to point the stick up without jumping.

4 and 5 contradict each other completely...Wavedash should be made easier because it's hard, wavedashing is hard enough as a command, then you've got to chain it into your normal playstyle instead of playing the way you want. And the problem's that you're focusing on three hand motions at the same time, it's very easy to get lost or to get it wrong by accident, also, the speed you need to actually do anything out of the daze the wavedash commands leaves you in is ridiculous. Even though I can wavedash 90% of the time now, I still can't manage to attack while I'm sliding because it's ridiculous.

Also, practiced wavedash a lot, it still feels forced and unnatural as the first time. Why should I have to do a finger-scrambling, ridiculous three-button input on a game that takes pride in its simplicity?

 

[The Slayer]

4 and 5 contradict each other completely...

Which is false since there was literally no true wavedashing in Brawl. So he was suggesting how it would be implemented into the new Smash by making it a bit easier to add into the playstyle, but difficult enough to still practice with for improving players and not disrupting the current setup for certain inputs.

Wavedash should be made easier because it's hard, wavedashing is hard enough as a command, then you've got to chain it into your normal playstyle instead of playing the way you want.

You short jump (1), you dodge (2) while forward/back downward angle (3) to the ground. And then repeat at the end of the sliding momentum. It's really not a hard process to do and think of. You only think it's hard because you don't want to adapt to something new. Knowing the weight of the character and their sliding momentum makes it easier to know when to repeat the move.

And the problem's that you're focusing on three hand motions at the same time, it's very easy to get lost or to get it wrong by accident, also, the speed you need to actually do anything out of the daze the wavedash commands leaves you in is ridiculous. Even though I can wavedash 90% of the time now, I still can't manage to attack while I'm sliding because it's ridiculous.

Obviously, it's going to be a bit difficult because your muscle memory to the move is still poor. You're not going to master this move and utilize it well in several days/weeks. Even though it's easy to perform, wavedashing still takes time and commitment to know what attack to use at the right frame window, especially on what character(s) you're using for it.

Also, practiced wavedash a lot, it still feels forced and unnatural as the first time. Why should I have to do a finger-scrambling, ridiculous three-button input on a game that takes pride in its simplicity?

Because not everyone is into simplicity when Smash Bros games started to have depth around Melee's lifetime. In truth, you don't need to learn many techs if you're playing Smash games for fun. But if you are trying to win tournaments or just trying to get better overall, then you're just doing yourself a disservice of being an easy seed.

Besides, I really don't see the big deal with certain tech skills being "hard", especially in Smash Bros, when other fighter games have the techniques of a few characters even harder than most of Smash Bros.' gameplay. If anything, a sense of improvement for newcomers by adding certain bits here and there increases the replay value to play it more instead of collecting dust in the closet.

 

[D-idara]

Which is false since there was literally no true wavedashing in Brawl. So he was suggesting how it would be implemented into the new Smash by making it a bit easier to add into the playstyle, but difficult enough to still practice with for improving players and not disrupting the current setup for certain inputs.



You short jump (1), you dodge (2) while forward/back downward angle (3) to the ground. And then repeat at the end of the sliding momentum. It's really not a hard process to do and think of. You only think it's hard because you don't want to adapt to something new. Knowing the weight of the character and their sliding momentum makes it easier to know when to repeat the move.



Obviously, it's going to be a bit difficult because your muscle memory to the move is still poor. You're not going to master this move and utilize it well in several days/weeks. Even though it's easy to perform, wavedashing still takes time and commitment to know what attack to use at the right frame window, especially on what character(s) you're using for it.



Because not everyone is into simplicity when Smash Bros games started to have depth around Melee's lifetime. In truth, you don't need to learn many techs if you're playing Smash games for fun. But if you are trying to win tournaments or just trying to get better overall, then you're just doing yourself a disservice of being an easy seed.

Besides, I really don't see the big deal with certain tech skills being "hard", especially in Smash Bros, when other fighter games have the techniques of a few characters even harder than most of Smash Bros.' gameplay. If anything, a sense of improvement for newcomers by adding certain bits here and there increases the replay value to play it more instead of collecting dust in the closet.

Tech barriers aren't depth, they're tech barriers, and not everyone wants to be stuck doing Wavedash wrong for a year just to give a shot at competitive play.

I don't care how much it would mess with competitive players' muscle memory if Wavedash is made simpler. They're the ones that like to put up with BS and want everyone else to have to put up with the same BS just because they had to.

I'm just not going to keep trying to attack in sliding state and watching my character do sbsolutely nothing. When a game doesn't obey your inputs, that's bad design.

And Smash64 had plenty of depth, just not your definition of depth, REAL depth.

The game having tech skill barriers only makes it a worse game, the easier to play and control, the better. Just look at Pokemon, it practically brought down every single technical barrier associated with the game in XY. And everyone's happy, except a few stupid etilists. But I'm happy, if I put up with a lot of technical BS during Emerald, DP and BW, I'm happy that newer players don't have to put up with what I did, because tech barriers are uneccessary.

Why should they have to study and learn a game that's supposed to be fun, no, they want to jump right into competitive play, don't lower the ceiling, raise the floor!

Especially when the wavedash output could be done through a much simpler, less twitchy and less "annoying to the point of turning off the game and playing something actually fun" input.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Actually he did. He also mentioned that he was focusing on aerial combat.

Yea he sure did focus on aerial combat in that game... Man... you spend so much time in the air in that game. Plus you never die either. I had no idea how exaggerated a quote could become.

I hope that the same is true with this game being in between Melee and Brawl. Of course some Melee players won't play this one because its not going to be "as good as melee". Brawl players will play Smash 4 no problem. I also hope they bring back some of the tech skill Melee had. At least L-canceling should return. Its been in the majority of smash games and was removed to help reign in new players. Now that the new players are in they can begin to wean themselves to some more advanced techniques.

 

[JediLink]

and not everyone wants to be stuck doing Wavedash wrong for a year just to give a shot at competitive play.

I'm just not going to keep trying to attack in sliding state and watching my character do sbsolutely nothing. When a game doesn't obey your inputs, that's bad design.

Especially when the wavedash output could be done through a much simpler, less twitchy and less "annoying to the point of turning off the game and playing something actually fun" input.

For the love of god, wavedashing is not that hard. It'll take you a couple of hours to get it down and then you'll be able to do it for the rest of your life.

And we already established like 15 pages ago that you don't want to play competitively anyway so I don't even understand why you're doing this. If you want to play something else, just play something else.

 

[D-idara]

Yea he sure did focus on aerial combat in that game... Man... you spend so much time in the air in that game. Plus you never die either. I had no idea how exaggerated a quote could become.

I hope that the same is true with this game being in between Melee and Brawl. Of course some Melee players won't play this one because its not going to be "as good as melee". Brawl players will play Smash 4 no problem. I also hope they bring back some of the tech skill Melee had. At least L-canceling should return. Its been in the majority of smash games and was removed to help reign in new players. Now that the new players are in they can begin to wean themselves to some more advanced techniques.

L-Cancel is NOT an advanced technique, just remove landing lag altogether. Wavedash should return before L-Cancel, because at least Wavedash has some actual use other than pure execution barrier.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

L-Cancel is NOT an advanced technique, just remove landing lag altogether. Wavedash should return before L-Cancel, because at least Wavedash has some actual use other than pure execution barrier.

k. What advanced techniques would you not mind being in Smash 4? Just wondering.

 

[D-idara]

k. What advanced techniques would you not mind being in Smash 4? Just wondering.

I'd like wavedash to return with a simpler input so it can offer all the great movement options without the annoying. I mean, the only huge AT on the Smash series has been wavedashing, L-Cancel's just a matter of using bad design to counter bad design, reducing the landing lag altogether gets rid of the need for L-cancelling, and makes the game faster without making it twitchier.

 

[The Slayer]

Tech barriers aren't depth, they're tech barriers, and not everyone wants to be stuck doing Wavedash wrong for a year just to give a shot at competitive play.

Tech barriers are not made of a movement that practically easy to do and longer to work into one's playstyle. It's an excuse of a player that can't adapt to change, especially if they're playing just for fun.

I don't care how much it would mess with competitive players' muscle memory if Wavedash is made simpler. They're the ones that like to put up with BS and want everyone else to have to put up with the same BS just because they had to.

Then do don't it. It's not hard to not do it, but complaining about it isn't going to bend them to your opinion. And "they" didn't do anything. All they did was created a meta which players can follow or not. It's not required especially if you're not taking Melee or any Smash Bros game seriously.

I'm just not going to keep trying to attack in sliding state and watching my character do sbsolutely nothing. When a game doesn't obey your inputs, that's bad design.

You're mindlessly using an exploit that you have little experience of. The input for attacking/defending out of a wavedash could fail when people are starting out, but the game does it's job decently with inputs in general. Besides, I didn't see Brawl looking 100% out of the gate either, and even the first game has it's flaws. Speaking of which...

And Smash64 had plenty of depth, just not your definition of depth, REAL depth.

I hope that wasn't a serious comment. I never denied SSB having depth. Maybe not as expansive with techs like in Melee, but the strategy for it is interesting. Maybe a little more than Brawl, but that's just my opinion.

The game having tech skill barriers only makes it a worse game, the easier to play and control, the better. Just look at Pokemon, it practically brought down every single technical barrier associated with the game in XY. And everyone's happy, except a few stupid etilists. But I'm happy, if I put up with a lot of technical BS during Emerald, DP and BW, I'm happy that newer players don't have to put up with what I did, because tech barriers are uneccessary.

It's Pokemon. The only "tech barrier" is time. Otherwise, it's all mind-games and RNG. Besides, you're not convincing anyone with apples and oranges.

Why should they have to study and learn a game that's supposed to be fun, no, they want to jump right into competitive play, don't lower the ceiling, raise the floor!

Especially when the wavedash output could be done through a much simpler, less twitchy and less "annoying to the point of turning off the game and playing something actually fun" input.

Then playing Angry Birds or Candy Crush sounds right in your alley. They require nearly 1-2 inputs and they have no fun-reducing competition. Seriously, I don't know how playing this game casually really affects you in the long run when many people are playing it for fun to begin with. I also can't imagine how the competitive crowd is making things less fun when they're not only expanding the game's lifetime, but also rewards you if you're really committed in doing so.

The best part (which goes for a lot of people complaining for the sake of complaining) is that you don't even take part of any of it. It's fine if you want to keep a simple mind to the game(s). But don't complain about people wanting a little depth that truly doesn't affect you in the long run, regardless of what techs being implemented or not.

 

[D-idara]

Tech barriers are not made of a movement that practically easy to do and longer to work into one's playstyle. It's an excuse of a player that can't adapt to change, especially if they're playing just for fun.



Then do don't it. It's not hard to not do it, but complaining about it isn't going to bend them to your opinion. And "they" didn't do anything. All they did was created a meta which players can follow or not. It's not required especially if you're not taking Melee or any Smash Bros game seriously.



You're mindlessly using an exploit that you have little experience of. The input for attacking/defending out of a wavedash could fail when people are starting out, but the game does it's job decently with inputs in general. Besides, I didn't see Brawl looking 100% out of the gate either, and even the first game has it's flaws. Speaking of which...



I hope that wasn't a serious comment. I never denied SSB having depth. Maybe not as expansive with techs like in Melee, but the strategy for it is interesting. Maybe a little more than Brawl, but that's just my opinion.



It's Pokemon. The only "tech barrier" is time. Otherwise, it's all mind-games and RNG. Besides, you're not convincing anyone with apples and oranges.



Then playing Angry Birds or Candy Crush sounds right in your alley. They require nearly 1-2 inputs and they have no fun-reducing competition. Seriously, I don't know how playing this game casually really affects you in the long run when many people are playing it for fun to begin with. I also can't imagine how the competitive crowd is making things less fun when they're not only expanding the game's lifetime, but also rewards you if you're really committed in doing so.

The best part (which goes for a lot of people complaining for the sake of complaining) is that you don't even take part of any of it. It's fine if you want to keep a simple mind to the game(s). But don't complain about people wanting a little depth that truly doesn't affect you in the long run, regardless of what techs being implemented or not.

I hate Candy Crush with a burning passion and can't stand Angry Birds, I'm a hardcore gamer, just not a competitive Smash player.

 

[pitthekit]

Off topic-

As someone who played candy crush up to level 522 I have concluded that candy crush saga is mostly luck.
You can perform a few moves to enhance your chances of creating a booster candy; however, it is still luck as you rely on the right candy to make the booster.

 

[mimgrim]

I check this thread after being gone for the weekend.

Started out staying the same.

Then I go to page 26.

It seemed to be taking a turn for the better.

Then I get to this page.

Back to the same crap again.

My brief moment of hope was crushed.

I hope you guys feel proud of yourselves.

 

[McDuckletts]

i don't even know what teching is lol

 

[mimgrim]

i don't even know what teching is lol

I seriously hope your joking. But in case you aren't.

Teching is when you press the shield button right before you hit the ground while in tumble/hitstun animation. You pretty much recover to idle position a lot fast. You can also Tech Roll by pointing the control stick left or right. There is also Wall Teching which is like Teching but done on a wall instead.

 

[McDuckletts]

I seriously hope your joking. But in case you aren't.

Teching is when you press the shield button right before you hit the ground while in tumble/hitstun animation. You pretty much recover to idle position a lot fast. You can also Tech Roll by pointing the control stick left or right. There is also Wall Teching which is like Teching but done on a wall instead.

Oh.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think SDI could be simplified. Instead of mashing Away+Up and Away+Down to end up going Away sideways, i should just hold (no need to mash) away sideways.

 

[NFTsmasher]

i think SDI could be simplified. Instead of mashing Away+Up and Away+Down to end up going Away sideways, i should just hold (no need to mash) away sideways.

For DI, don't you just need to hold the control stick in the direction perpendicular to the direction you've been hit? Or was there something else that I've been missing for the longest time?

 

[JediLink]

For DI, don't you just need to hold the control stick in the direction perpendicular to the direction you've been hit? Or was there something else that I've been missing for the longest time?

No, you're right. That's exactly what DI is.

SDI is a bit different, though. It involves mashing the stick. I'm pretty sure you're supposed to mash a direction during hitlag, but that's usually only a couple of frames so I don't know how the hell people do it.

 

[Sun & Moon]

I'm sure Sakurai said he's not the only one this time around. He did for the past games for God knows what reason.

I read it was because it was easier for him to all balancing all by himself than ask for someone else to do it for him, because if said person don't do the balancing the away Sakurai imagineted, he would have to do everything again from beggining.

 

[Big-Cat]

lol at Sakurai thinking only he knows what's best or that he even knows what's best.

 

[Sun & Moon]

lol at Sakurai thinking only he knows what's best or that he even knows what's best.

It's not that. He just wants to nerf/buff characters in a certain way, and it's easier for him to do it by himself, rather than ask for someone to do it for him. He never said it was the best way to balance the characters. It is just the only way he can do that.
I think, however, he could use some help.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just thinking here, but while Sakurai is doing the actual balancing, he's probably getting imput from the play testers right? I mean, there's 40+ characters and 50+ stages and he can't even hold a controller right now.

 

[Sun & Moon]

Just thinking here, but while Sakurai is doing the actual balancing, he's probably getting imput from the play testers right? I mean, there's 40+ characters and 50+ stages and he can't even hold a controller right now.

He NEDDS to put people with similar skills to battle each other. This way, a better balance will be possible.

 

[Empyrean]

Ideally (imo), a good level of balance should be achieved by taking a group of people of different levels of skill and putting them against each other, whether it pro vs pro, casual vs casual, or mixed. That way, it could potentially be easier to spot game-breaking or over-centralizing tactics/moves/properties and act accordingly.

Sakurai has said that they playtest the game at lunch breaks in 4 people ffas, but that is no where near enough. Even with the input he gets from playtesters, I wouldn't be surprised if he still followed his ideals of what the balance should look like. Hopefully his ideals have changed since Brawl, unless he wants to end up with another Ganon-MK situation.

 

[mimgrim]

I
Sakurai has said that they playtest the game at lunch breaks in 4 people ffas, but that is no where near enough. Even with the input he gets from playtesters, I wouldn't be surprised if he still followed his ideals of what the balance should look like. Hopefully his ideals have changed since Brawl, unless he wants to end up with another Ganon-MK situation.

I believe that when Sakurai said that he wasn't talking about playtesting. Been a while since I read the article but I remember it being something along the lines of "we love playing the game so much that we even play during lunch break" or something like that. And I'm pretty sure he has said in another interview that his initial balance starts on FD as 1 VS 1 and he slowly/gradually moves on from there there.

Not trying to defend him or anything, but that's how I remember things being said.

 

[LancerStaff]

I believe that when Sakurai said that he wasn't talking about playtesting. Been a while since I read the article but I remember it being something along the lines of "we love playing the game so much that we even play during lunch break" or something like that. And I'm pretty sure he has said in another interview that his initial balance starts on FD as 1 VS 1 and he slowly moves onto there.

Not trying to defend him or anything, but that's how I remember things being said.

I remember the lunch bit too. But I remember him saying most of the balancing was going to be done with FFA. Dunno where you came up with the FD 1v1 thing.

 

[mimgrim]

I remember the lunch bit too. But I remember him saying most of the balancing was going to be done with FFA. Dunno where you came up with the FD 1v1 thing.

It was FD or BF.

It was along the lines of how he balanced characters first on a stage such FD or BF or something and gradually moved to more erratic stages from there, I might be, and probably am, wrong about the 1V1 thing but I am confident about the stage thing for sure.

 

[Empyrean]

It was FD or BF.

It was along the lines of how he balanced characters first on a stage such FD or BF or something and gradually moved to more erratic stages from there, I might be, and probably am, wrong about the 1V1 thing but I am confident about the stage thing for sure.

I wasn't aware of the part about FD/BF, that's good to hear. As for the second part, it said in the interview that he does most of the balance through ffa's, while trying to figure out how some of the stuff could also work for 1v1. He gave Falcon as an example, saying that no matter how much he tried, he found no way to integrate Falcon Punch as a viable 1v1 move without making it broken/different. In similar situations, he said that he just gave up on the move and left it as a ffa move instead of focusing on the 1v1 aspect. I read it a while ago too, so don't take this word for word, some parts might be inaccurate.

 

[mimgrim]

I wasn't aware of the part about FD/BF, that's good to hear. As for the second part, it said in the interview that he does most of the balance through ffa's, while trying to figure out how some of the stuff could also work for 1v1. He gave Falcon as an example, saying that no matter how much he tried, he found no way to integrate Falcon Punch as a viable 1v1 move without making it broken/different. In similar situations, he said that he just gave up on the move and left it as a ffa move instead of focusing on the 1v1 aspect. I read it a while ago too, so don't take this word for word, some parts might be inaccurate.

IIRC Falcon had combos that led into Falcon Punch in Melee. So it wasn't completely useless for 1V1 in that game. I wouldn't be surprised if 64 Falcon Punch combo finisher either. Brawl just requires a good damn read. xD

 

[Empyrean]

IIRC Falcon had combos that led into Falcon Punch in Melee. So it wasn't completely useless for 1V1 in that game. I wouldn't be surprised if 64 Falcon Punch combo finisher either. Brawl just requires a good damn read. xD

Oh, I know. I was just saying what I remembered him saying in the interview.

 

[DontHate-]

4 and 5 contradict each other completely...Wavedash should be made easier because it's hard, wavedashing is hard enough as a command, then you've got to chain it into your normal playstyle instead of playing the way you want. And the problem's that you're focusing on three hand motions at the same time, it's very easy to get lost or to get it wrong by accident, also, the speed you need to actually do anything out of the daze the wavedash commands leaves you in is ridiculous. Even though I can wavedash 90% of the time now, I still can't manage to attack while I'm sliding because it's ridiculous.

Also, practiced wavedash a lot, it still feels forced and unnatural as the first time. Why should I have to do a finger-scrambling, ridiculous three-button input on a game that takes pride in its simplicity?

Pride in its simplicity???? I didn't get the memo. I've played a **** ton of fighting games competitively and been to tournaments in many and I say hands down melee is one of the most tech and complicated fighting games I can think of.

Also, I don't like the argument that people make about unnecessary tech. It is not unnecessary! The point is so that you feel more rewarded once you are able to implement it into a game after practice and nets you an advantage. It does not have to make intuitive sense. Explain to me why the hell does a medium punch and a medium kick in SF lead to an instantaneous cancelation of the previous motion. That defies all laws of physics. So it is ok if wave dashing is in the game to give people who put in the time and effort to learn it an advantage. Just like focus canceling in SF is rewarding to those who put the time and effort. FCing in SF is not easy at all either. It took me about a week to do a shoryuken FC into a special when I first played SF Vanilla because of the timing as well. A friend of mine who can do most of the tech in melee couldn't get the timing down for FC in street fighter for the life of him, but did capcom remove it knowing that it was difficult and not intuitive to perform? I don't think so. SF3 had parrying, which required you to move forward on the correct frame to perfectly block something............All of my WUT????....forward... to..... freaking block...?????? Yet it made the game so interesting and amazing and was a mechanic that lead to one of the greatest moments in GAMING history (diago vs Juston). So this intuitive/ difficulty argument is not cutting it.

 

[D-idara]

Pride in its simplicity???? I didn't get the memo. I've played a **** ton of fighting games competitively and been to tournaments in many and I say hands down melee is one of the most tech and complicated fighting games I can think of.

Also, I don't like the argument that people make about unnecessary tech. It is not unnecessary! The point is so that you feel more rewarded once you are able to implement it into a game after practice and nets you an advantage. It does not have to make intuitive sense. Explain to me why the hell does a medium punch and a medium kick in SF lead to an instantaneous cancelation of the previous motion. That defies all laws of physics. So it is ok if wave dashing is in the game to give people who put in the time and effort to learn it an advantage. Just like focus canceling in SF is rewarding to those who put the time and effort. FCing in SF is not easy at all either. It took me about a week to do a shoryuken FC into a special when I first played SF Vanilla because of the timing as well. A friend of mine who can do most of the tech in melee couldn't get the timing down for FC in street fighter for the life of him, but did capcom remove it knowing that it was difficult and not intuitive to perform? I don't think so. SF3 had parrying, which required you to move forward on the correct frame to perfectly block something............All of my WUT????....forward... to..... freaking block...?????? Yet it made the game so interesting and amazing and was a mechanic that lead to one of the greatest moments in GAMING history (diago vs Juston). So this intuitive/ difficulty argument is not cutting it.

L-Cancel is still stupid and redundant, having to press L everytime you land? Totally not tech barriers for the sake of tech barriers. It should be called L-Cancer because all it does is harm to the game.

And getting an advantage just because how to do a command is called bad design. The 'rewarding' aspect comes from playing well, there's nothing rewarding or good about the dated, etilist-magnet Street Fighter system, I sold my copy of SFIV a week after getting it.

And yes, Smash prides itself in simplicity. You're good because you're good, not because of muscle memory.

And I'd hardly consider two dudes getting handcramps on a badly-designed game one of the greatest moments in gaming history, but Street Fighter is a whole different story, it tries and tries to make the game harder and harder so tryhards can feel good about themselves.

 

[Jackson]

I don't disagree with tech skill. Although it can be frustrating learning a difficult advanced technique, it opens up new possibilities in your game. Someone who disagrees with it can main someone who doesn't need much tech skill, like Ike, instead of, say, the ice climbers.

 

[DontHate-]

Wow, ok wait a second.

L-Cancel is still stupid and redundant, having to press L everytime you land? Totally not tech barriers for the sake of tech barriers. It should be called L-Cancer because all it does is harm to the game.

1. You did not provide a counter argument for L canceling. you just said "It's still stupid/ redundant... Tech barrier just for the sake of tech barrier" is not a counterargument when I gave a reason for tech barrier. Redundancy is not a counter argument because playing the same character multiple rounds and inputting the same motion regardless of difficulty is redundant by definition. There is a reason why more of this "redundancy" is needed because it is a balance mechanism, which I'll explain in a bit.

And getting an advantage just because how to do a command is called bad design. The 'rewarding' aspect comes from playing well, there's nothing rewarding or good about the dated, etilist-magnet Street Fighter system, I sold my copy of SFIV a week after getting it.

2. Getting an advantage "just because of how you do commands" is not called bad design, it's called playing a video game. You and I will continuously press commands that will net us advantages and disadvantages. My ability to press commands that would require you to train and you can not do them to net yourself an advantage, which if ultimately leads you to losing, MAKES ME BETTER THAN YOU AT THIS VIDEO GAME.

And yes, Smash prides itself in simplicity. You're good because you're good, not because of muscle memory.

3."Your good because you are good and not because of muscle memory"... O.K Ima go ahead and flat out say you must have only played Brawl and not Melee competitively, yes? Not saying one is better than the other. Im saying that statement showed a lack of understanding for a game like Melee OR Streetighter. Everything is, in some form, muscle memory! Not only that, it is a combination of your decisions and your superb muscle memory that make you a good player, hence, why people "go to the lab" to get better at a game.

Also, people enjoy watching others "perform" these feats. People go crazy when you are able to do a difficult/flashy combo because everyone can make the decision to do it BUT NOT EVERYONE CAN EXECUTE IT. Which is what makes it impressive and entertaining. Imagine if execution was easy. Then WTF is the point of playing the game if all I have to do is read online what decisions I have to make given X situation and I win?

You know what really absolutely destroys all this "remove tech" arguments? Is the fact that without tech skill, certain characters would be insanely broken in all fighting games. Imagine having melee falco/fox in melee without tech needed to execute what they do... You know what you get???? A brawl Metaknight! We damn sure prefer someone possibly faulting on tech on an amazing character because their LEARNING CURVE should be a part of their BALANCING MECHANISM. This way, even if people conquer the tech skills and all decision making, their is still high possibility of them faulting on either tech or decision, which takes the character down a couple notches compared to ONLY faulting on decision making.

And I'd hardly consider two dudes getting handcramps on a badly-designed game one of the greatest moments in gaming history, but Street Fighter is a whole different story, it tries and tries to make the game harder and harder so tryhards can feel good about themselves.

4. Wow really? Street fighter is a badly designed game???? I don't even have to comment on this one.... I really want to here how SF is a badly designed game and then want to here your argument for why "game X" is a good design and is nothing like streetfighter.

 

[Jackson]

Wow, ok wait a second.



1. You did not provide a counter argument for L canceling. you just said "It's still stupid/ redundant... Tech barrier just for the sake of tech barrier" is not a counterargument when I gave a reason for tech barrier. Redundancy is not a counter argument because playing the same character multiple rounds and inputting the same motion regardless of difficulty is redundant by definition. There is a reason why more of this "redundancy" is needed because it is a balance mechanism, which I'll explain in a bit.



2. Getting an advantage "just because of how you do commands" is not called bad design, it's called playing a video game. You and I will continuously press commands that will net us advantages and disadvantages. My ability to press commands that would require you to train and you can not do them to net yourself an advantage, which if ultimately leads you to losing, MAKES ME BETTER THAN YOU AT THIS VIDEO GAME.



3."Your good because you are good and not because of muscle memory"... O.K Ima go ahead and flat out say you must have only played Brawl and not Melee competitively, yes? Not saying one is better than the other. Im saying that statement showed a lack of understanding for a game like Melee OR Streetighter. Everything is, in some form, muscle memory! Not only that, it is a combination of your decisions and your superb muscle memory that make you a good player, hence, why people "go to the lab" to get better at a game.

Also, people enjoy watching others "perform" these feats. People go crazy when you are able to do a difficult/flashy combo because everyone can make the decision to do it BUT NOT EVERYONE CAN EXECUTE IT. Which is what makes it impressive and entertaining. Imagine if execution was easy. Then WTF is the point of playing the game if all I have to do is read online what decisions I have to make given X situation and I win?

You know what really absolutely destroys all this "remove tech" arguments? Is the fact that without tech skill, certain characters would be insanely broken in all fighting games. Imagine having melee falco/fox in melee without tech needed to execute what they do... You know what you get???? A brawl Metaknight! We damn sure prefer someone possibly faulting on tech on an amazing character because their LEARNING CURVE should be a part of their BALANCING MECHANISM. This way, even if people conquer the tech skills and all decision making, their is still high possibility of them faulting on either tech or decision, which takes the character down a couple notches compared to ONLY faulting on decision making.



4. Wow really? Street fighter is a badly designed game???? I don't even have to comment on this one.... I really want to here how SF is a badly designed game and then want to here your argument for why "game X" is a good design and is nothing like streetfighter.

Great argument. You made good points, I agree.